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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
next item is usually bkb or niche utility depending on comp (halberd/diffusal/euls huehue). aura bitch is nice too but SB's late game is so incredibly dependent on how the early game went so I'd just worry about your dagon/SB timings. i feel like silver edge isn't even that great unless you are for sure charging a carry with a retarded passive every single fight (bristle/void/PA) but that means you're not charging a backline support for the instagib so it's ehhhh | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
I was wondering whether it's worth doing that over helping out your lanes from level 1? | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:10 Saechiis wrote: I've been playing support cow and I noticed SB only becomes a hero from level 2 onward. So I came up with the idea of buying iron talon and a ward (perhaps a smoke with the remaing 50) and kill the hard camp at level 1 to go straight to level 2, buy courier and whatever you can afford then suicide and charge back to lane, usually I'm back in time for the 2 min rune with bash, charge, some regen and full health/ mana. I was wondering whether it's worth doing that over helping out your lanes from level 1? Interesting idea, but remember that not all hard camp spawns get you to level 2, so depending on RNG this could be a horribly inefficient leveling strategy. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:17 Saechiis wrote: Yeah I know, I cut trees between hard and medium camps for vision to maximize the odds of getting the right camps. With bad luck you have to kill an extra small creep from another camp which takes some 30 seconds extra. I haven't figured out the most reliable way to do this yet. I suppose I can stack the camp as well. I'm mostly wondering whether it's worth it in general. Report once you are done | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Edit: Downside is that you delay boots quite a bit, upside is that you can help out any lane that needs it and charge there for "free". It gives a bit of leeway being able to choose your lane and ferry out wards/ regen as needed. And dewarding cliffs becomes a non-issue. I'll spam some SB tomorrow and report back! | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
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KOFgokuon
United States14893 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I think this hero is pretty flexible in terms of item build, but you probably want to rush urn first. midas situationally is good too. I think the "core" item on sb needs to be the following: urn, boot (i usually leave it at brown if I'm utility), oov, windlace, stick/wand, tps. these cores are dirt cheap you can buy as you go, which leaves you light on farm and heavy on gankings. Usually early levels boot+windlace+oov is extremely potent, and I would try to have all 3 while rushing urn. Honestly urn is the best item on this hero, it adds some sorely needed extra damage during a charge, and give you the ability to heal up after engage/disengage while waiting for a charge cd. you basically have 2 concepts, either you are expected to deal damage, or you are expected to just give disables and controls and utilities. I honestly think spirit breaker's damage output is pretty mediocre, and running him as utility is stronger. You can sort of "force" him into a semi-carry role if he really gets the ball rolling, but I do not think under equal skill levels that is likely at all unless you get lucky (correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not see him find the space to farm and get carry items). If you're forced to play a "core" role I guess get early midas is essential as he cannot farm fast at all. I'd get it after your core items (i.e. after completing urn) for utility role go fast 1-1-1 build and max out charge before the bash. It is curious but bash is actually magic damage, and the bash upon finishing charge, and the bash upon nether-strike does NOT come with its own auto-attack. i.e. they're just greater bash applied as spells rather than an auto-attack after your charge lands, and another auto-attack after your nether strike. For that reason your combo is weaker than you think it is... actually a lot weaker, about 600-ish damage without extra bash proc and 1, 2 auto attacks thrown in. prepping for greater bash is pretty important (abuse pseudo random), especially if you're expected to deal more damage in a gank. My rule is hitting creeps 4 - 5 times, if no bash is proc, I'm good to go. The chances of getting a greater bash in your combo is more than 60%, which is about 150 extra damage (after reduction). I don't really have a niche item build for this guy, so I'm open to some interesting but effective item suggestions... so far _THE_ item for the hero is urn, all other items seem bit mediocre, even echo sabre is kind of meh since you can prep your bashes on creeps before a charge. I toyed around with phase-boot which looked pretty nice on paper as it gives you near max movespeed while disengaging or chasing w/o having to commit charge, I've also found glimmer / orchid situationally pretty useful. I guess dagon is pretty niche but it's pretty gimicky, you had to stay in lane to get 6 and go for some really good kill secures to get it early enough to be worth it (if you get a late-ish dagon it's not worth it because you probably missed early rotations before you hit lvl 6) any comment/discussion would be great, again trying to really grind some mmr with this cow guy lul (also thoughts on iron talon? his base armor is pretty good so he doesn't really lose hp much at all when jungling with a pms) | ||
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
I feel iron talon is pretty good when the game doesn't work out your way (you know, bad coordination, 1 or 2 failed charges and... it can go south). It's good for catch up farm, be it in lane or neutral camps (not for the armor, but for the active - and bonus dmg, ofc). I also feel like Shadow Blade is a no brainer. Invisible charges, I mean... yeah. Plus Silver Edge is a very good item. And bkb. Bit boring but that's what I find the most efficient -> urn -> SB (-> silver edge) -> bkb. | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
Other then urn, stick, tp, boots and often dust, not much is set in stone. In most games I need bkb eventually. I prefer to build a smaller item first though. It could be vlads, drums, blademail, echo etc. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
although they also go for tread, which I don't know if it adds that much at all, franky I don't see you sticking to a single target in a team fight and dishing out some good right clicks, you probably have to run for your life after the initial charge as the aggro is huge on you when you first run in and as initiator you really can't afford to die (the more you die, the more weaker you become in terms of farm/exp/items and the more you're unable to initiate properly) Especially if you use echo sabre which makes attack speed pretty much moot, you'll get a double hit with the initial stun from charge, after that you ult, which can probably buy you enough time to proc another double hit, all-in-all you get about 5 auto-attacks in with echosabre already, and I don't see how tread adds that much value at all. I'm thinking if you're committed to echo-sabre might as well go for PHASE BOOT, that way each of your attack (and extra procs from echo sabre) would be that much more efficient, activate phase to run-away is nice, activate phase gives you more damage on bash as well (about 100 bonus speed which is 50 extra damage per bash)... thoughts? Assume you get 5 auto-attack in during your combo, with a phase boot that's 120 extra damage from auto-attack alone. TLDR: I think phase + echo-sabr is stronger pairing than tread+sabr, thoughts? I'll go demo-mode and test it and report some results | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
Treads are just cheap stats which makes your peak even stronger. The difference is not huge when you finished farming an echo sabre but you want to take the game by storm way before you farm 3K gold so it's not just a case of synergy with echo sabre imo, it's more about power curve. The real question would be to upgrade boots or not if the early game did not go too well as their stats boost would be less meaningful. On the other hand, if you want echo sabre, maybe the extra farm treads provide might be better. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I think phase boot is legit... you can do so much kiting with it the utility is insane. I think I would value it over tread anyday now... you run in, stun ppl, eat some spells and activate empowering haste and phase boot to run away at 500 movement speed and use urn to heal up and go again. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2827867643 i know it's kind of clowny party queue but still | ||
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
Mana regen is arguably useless too. To me, SB wants to charge, fight, TP to fountain, rince and repeat. And if you can't charge, you want to stay off vision, so probably jungle, and echo doesn't really do anything for SB jungling. I don't know, yes the item in itself is crazy good and easy to make, but I feel it just doesn't work with Spirit Breaker. On the other hand, I remember being totally owned by obnoxious MoM SB. That can ruin your day, and it does help for out-of-vision farm (aka jungle). Vlad sounds good too, provided you have normal allies (willing to regroup + some right clickers). In the end, Shadow Blade is just too strong for the hero purpose, to pass up. They won't see you coming, that's often the difference between a successful or a failed gank, I find. And I'm really not a Shadow Blade user, I don't like the item but it just works with SB. So much so they have the same freaking initials, making typing this post a pain, right SB SB >_> And it opens up the way for Silver Freaking Edge, which is absurdly edgy indeed, in itself and on SB (I don't know how that works but the first hit - charge impact - often seems to remove like 1/3 of their HP, it's obscene). | ||
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