Spirit Breaker does exactly that, he breaks spirits. The very sight of him at the pick screen makes you groan in disgust. Seeing him in your lane makes you dread the midgame. Having a Spirit Breaker on the enemy team crushes your will to play, because there's only one condition for having Barathrum charge you: being foolish enough to be seen. Spirit Breaker is not only an amazing hero, but he's an amazingly fun hero, and so I write this guide in hopes to share my fun with you.
So why don't we see Spirit Breaker in more competitive play, you might ask me? Well the answer is simple:
Spirit Breaker is not a very good hero.
Barathrum has a weak, RNG based laning stage and lacks any real utility in a 5v5 teamfight, giving him a very small window to deal damage. Any team that communicates well with one another, helps control the map with ward coverage, and carries TP scrolls to countergank if someone gets caught can easily deal with Spirit Breaker.
Fortunately you play in pub games, where none of that is the case.
Farm up until level 6-7, as you can't really contribute much until then. The midgame is your time to shine. Go forth, conquer, hunt. Barathrum is called the Spirit Breaker for a reason: Crush your enemy's will to continue. Make them dread leaving their base, make it so they never go out without two or three huddled together for warmth, jumping at every shadow.
II. Lore Barathrum the Spirit Breaker is a lordly and powerful being, a fierce and elemental intelligence which chose to plane-shift into the world of matter to take part in events with repercussions in the elemental realm that is his home. To that end, he assembled a form that would serve him well, both in our world and out of it. His physical form borrows from the strengths of this world, blending features both bovine and simian-horns, hooves and hands-as outward emblems of his inner qualities of strength, speed and cunning. He wears a ring in his nose, as a reminder that he serves a hidden master, and that this world in which he works is but a shadow of the real one.
III. Pros & Cons Pros: -Unholy midgame strength -Bashes for DAYS -Great synergy with a number of other heroes -Excellent escape mechanism -Absurd global presence -Relatively item independent, only needing a few core items to come online -Occasionally moos loudly when gaining levels
Cons: -Terrible laning phase -One of the most RNG-based heroes -Lacks any real teamfight utility -Falls off towards the lategame. -Easily countered by a team that works well with eachother -Occasionally moos loudly when gaining levels
IV. When to Pick Spirit Breaker is an extremely powerful hero who can establish a dominant midgame presence for your team. However despite what the Mask of Madness building pubbies will tell you, he can't always carry alone. Spirit Breaker can establish a huge lead for your team, but he's not always the one who can drive it home. Therefore you should pick Spirit Breaker in the following situations:
-Your team needs a strength-based tanky hero -Your team has a carry like Antimage or Faceless Void and needs someone to carry the team until they come online -Your team is going for a strategy revolving around global presence or heavy pushing -Your team is looking to end the game before the enemy hard carries come online
Spirit Breaker fixes his sight on an enemy unit and starts charging through all objects. All enemy units passed through and the targeted unit will be hit by a Greater Bash. If the targeted unit dies, Spirit Breaker will change his target to the nearest enemy unit to that location.
This is what defines Spirit Breaker. Everything he is, he is because of his Charge. This is what will lead you to victory, this is what will let you break their spirits. And their backs. Knowing when, who, and where to charge is what will separate you from a Mask of Madness building pubby. This skill will let you absolutely dominate the midgame, and that's why I always max it first. Many people will tell you to max your bash first, but if you sit down and think about it there's really only one reason you would do that: for damage. But you're not building Spirit Breaker to deal damage, you're building Spirit Breaker to annihilate the enemy. You don't want to punch the enemy in the face, you want to barrel accross the map, pin them down, and open the opportunity for Skeleton King to cleave their skulls. The mid game is when you are strongest. When you've hit level 7 you are ready to began your rampage. Use your absurd charge speed and the free 2.4 second stun to lock down any enemy who dares to step across the river.
I'll go over when, where, who and what to charge in the Mindset section.
GOTTA GO FAST There's really not much to say about Bara's first passive. We throw a point in it early to give us and our teammates some extra movement speed. We max it last.
Gives a chance to stun and knockback an enemy unit on an attack, as well as gaining bonus movement speed after a bash occurs. Deals damage based on movement speed.
Chance to Trigger on Attack: 17% Damage: 10/20/30/40% of movement speed Knockback Duration: 0.5 Stun Duration: 1/1.2/1.4/1.6 Increased Movement Speed: 15% Increased Movement Speed Duration: 3
Not just any bash, but a Greater bash. Without Spirit Breaker's bash, he would crush enemies. With it, he demolishes them. Despite what everyone, your teammates and foes alike, will tell you, we max this after our charge. And we can reason why if we stop for a moment and think about it.
Why do we pick Spirit Breaker? We do it to charge in, grab an enemy, lock him down, and destroy him before he has any chance whatsoever to react. We come, we kill, and we're home in time for dinner. Spirit Breaker's strength comes in his ability to dominate the midgame through his brutal ganks and his terrifying stun times, but we also have to remember that when we're level 7, we barely have any major items. We probably have our treads, and we've started on our armlet. What we need is a kill, something to give us a headstart. With Charge maxed, we get a guaranteed 2.4 second stun on the enemy, buying us time to lock them down, get our team into position, and secure the kill. With Bash maxed, we get in, we deal damage, and we hope that we get lucky bashes.
Greater Bash has a 17% proc chance, meaning it occurs (on average) once in every six auto attacks. Maxed out, our Bash goes from a 1.0 second stun to a 1.6 second stun, meaning that in order to match the 1.2 second increase in stun we would get from our Charge, (1.2 seconds at Level One - 2.4 seconds at Level Four), we would have to attack the enemy an average of 12 times (.6 second increase, two times, average of six hits for a bash, math is fun). So why is that bad? Because at level 7, by the time you attack the enemy 12 times, you're pummeling a support that died 8 auto attacks ago.
6.79 UPDATE: With the changes to Barathrum in 6.79, this is even more important. Removing the magic immunity on Spirit Breaker's ult means that the enemy has to be stunned long enough to get a hit or two in before pulling off your ult. The 1.2 second stun from a level one charge simply will not cut it at those crucial early-game ganks.
Spirit Breaker slips into the nether realm, reappearing next to his hapless victim. Upon reappearing, a Greater Bash of the current level occurs and deals bonus damage. Upgradable by Aghanim's Scepter.
The nail in the coffin. Spirit Breaker's ult is a constant reminder that all good things will one day come to an end, and that there is no delaying the inevitability of our own mortality. Oftentimes I see Spirit Breakers use their ult directly after charging somebody. While sometimes effective, it denies Barathrum his true purpose.
Spirit Breaker is called Spirit Breaker for a reason. He doesn't just kill the enemy. Any hero can kill an enemy. Spirit Breaker kills players. Put yourself in the position of a level 5 Warlock who has just been charged by Spirit Breaker. You're on your back, the Cow hungers above you, gnashing its teeth. You have no CC, you have no escape mechanism. You do the only thing you can think of: you run. You run to your tower, you run to your team mate sprinting towards you as fast as he can. You flee the scene. But Spirit Breaker hasn't ulted yet, has he.
Let them think they survived. Give them the slightest bit of relief in their escape, as they manage to wiggle out of your grasp. Give them hope, and then take it away. Remind them that there is no escape from the inevitability of their demise. That is how you Break their Spirit.
VI. Skill Build
There are two main trains of thought, although everyone seems to agree that Haste is maxed last. The first train of thought is that you should max bash first, but these guides probably also tell you to build Masks of Madness and should therefore be disregarded. The second, in my opinion correct, train of thought, is that Charge should be maxed first. Maxing bash gives you a strategy revolving around hope. I hope I can charge them before they get back to their tower. I hope I can land a few bashes. I hope my team gets there in time. Hope is for your enemies to have. Hope is for you to take away from them. When you max charge, you know. I know I will be there in time. I know I can lock them down long enough for my team to follow up.
Don't hope, know. That's why we skill build like this:
This is really all you're going to need. The shield is pretty much necessary on melee heroes to prevent you from being harassed out of lane, the gauntlet of strength will help you last hit and will build into our bracer later, and the tangoes and salve will keep you nice and healthy while you get your crucial early game farm. If you're going to the offlane, make sure either you or a laning partner has wards, if you're going solo offlane don't be afraid to ask a support to buy you wards to bring with you. We don't get branches because we don't need them and will just end up selling them back later, and we're going to need every little bit of gold we can get in the early game.
Early Game
Every hero wants them ASAP and Spirit Breaker is no exception. Pick these up at your side shop as soon as you possibly can. After you've got your socks, it's time to start building.
The gauntlet you bought at the start will upgrade into a Bracer, while Treads will be your boots of choice. The attack speed and extra health from the Power Treads will be invaluable, and the bracer will give us some solid early-game stats, as well as providing a gateway to our Drums. If you can get the courier to bring you your bracer components, great. If someone else is using it, go straight for Treads and pick up your bracer next time you're at the Well.
Situational Earlygame
On September 04 2013 16:34 Firebolt145 wrote: urn is even more important if you're going armlet because otherwise you have no way to counter the health drain since you're not going lifesteal.
As an alternative to building your Bracer and then following it up into Drums, an Urn of Shadows can help offset the life drain of your armlet, as well as providing you with another means of securing a kill from a fleeing opponent. Spirit Breaker is bound to be in the midst of conflict throughout the game, many of your team's kills will revolve around your Charges and so you're likely to have plenty of charges in your Urn.
As suggested by the thread, an Orb of Venom is a great early pickup for Spirit Breaker. With its cheap price at the side shop, an OoV can help Barathrum when he's weakest: the early-game. Spirit Breaker is already likely to be slightly faster at early levels than the enemy team, and an OoV can help lockdown an early kill or two if the opportunity arises.
Core
Our goal. What we need to come online and unleash the beast within. Armlet is your first main item and all that Spirit Breaker really needs. It gives attack speed, health, damage, and lets you do the pro MLG toggles for your youtube videos. Armlet is absolutely amazing on Spirit Breaker. The health drain will be negligible too. Once you have your armlet, everything else is really just luxury. You're now ready to contribute to smashing the enemy. Toggle it while you're charging, go in, kill the enemy, and be home in time for Breaking Bad.
Drums lead towards our main goal of going fast. "But wait!" You say to me in an exasperated voice. "Those are for my support to build!" Look we already have the bracer, and this is just a hop skip and a leap away. It gives us movement speed, it gives us attack speed, and it gives us a nitro boost for our space cow if the enemy tries to run away.
Black King Bar is great on everyone, but especially on Spirit Breaker as it plugs the gap in his main weakness: CC. Your BKB can be turned on while you are charging. Got it? That means that you can pop it as soon as you're about to show up. That Rubick who thought he could lift you? Dead. That Rhasta who thought he could hex you? Dead.
Situational Core
On September 04 2013 14:33 synapse wrote: I think shadow blade is worth mentioning simply as a situational item vs a team / heroes that can easily stun you before you land your charge. Given that you're already playing spirit breaker in such a game, you gotta make your kit work somehow. Either way it gives you reasonable combat stats and a possible escape mechanism (esp in lower level pubs).
On September 04 2013 14:55 Mithhaike wrote: Shadow blade is actually not a bad item for Spirit Breaker. If the enemy is diligent about warding(they have good supports for some unknown reason, wow), a SB can't really gank even at the tip of his power. He needs smoke/shadowblade to get past the wards.
Also sometimes known as Lothar's, the Shadow Blade or "No-Skill Blade" is an excellent addition on Spirit Breaker, as it helps us get around our reliance on the enemy team's lack of wards. Items can be activated while Spirit Breaker is charging, meaning that unless he runs directly over a Sentry Ward, he can pass unseen across the map towards his target and guarantee a surprise attack. If you don't want to spend the money, you can also buy:
On September 04 2013 14:55 Mithhaike wrote: Smoke will cover your charge(as you can use items while charging) and by time smoke breaks, your in their face, even if you charged directly down a lane past creeps. They probably won't know what hit them until it's too late.
Once your Charge Speed is maxed, you should be able to barrel across the map in no time flat, meaning that even the short duration of Smoke of Deceit will let you close in on your target before they have a chance to respond. Buying lots of smoke has the added benefit of making you look pro, or like a good team player.
Situational Lategame
OH GOD WE'RE FORTY FIVE MINUTES INTO THE GAME WHAT DO I BUILD
Sange and Yasha: Ok let's get this one out of the way first. Yes, S&Y is one of the most cost inefficient items in all of Dota. If we have the money to spare though, it can be a great investment on Spirit Breaker. Since our bash damage scales off our movement speed, not only are we getting more damage from the Strength boost we're getting more Agility, more bashes, more damage, more kickass. Should it be your first choice? Probably not, but keep it in mind.
Mjollnir: What's not to love? Attack speed, damage, chain lightning. Everything that Spirit Breaker loves to have. One of my personal favorite lategame items.
Assault Cuirass: Ask your hard carry if he intends on building this. If he says no, ask him if he wants you to build it. If he says yes, obey his wishes and build it. More speed for you, more attack speed for your carry, more corpses for the grinder.
Aghanim's Scepter: Building a scepter on Barathrum fixes one of his main lategame disabilities: he lacks any real use in a teamfight. Scepter turns your ult from a ganking tool into an AoE stun teamfight initiator, and the lowered cooldown means you'll be able to pull it off multiple times in an extended fight.
Daedalus: An item extremely popular with pub Spirit Breakers. Personally, I don't see the appeal. You don't get any attack speed out of it, making it a huge investment for a 0% increase in your bashes. Does give you a ton of damage, and can give you some satisfyingly massive crits if you're into that sort of thing.
Satanic: Damage, lifesteal, health. All good stuff for Barathrum. Satanic is a fantastic item with its only real downside being its absolutely absurd gold cost.
Vladimir's Offering: One of those items like S&Y that people try to shy away from, probably because of the shame associated with rushing it on anyone other than Lycan. But if you have a lot of melee on your team, Vlad's can be a great addition. You're going to be in the middle of any fight and anyone who needs the auras will likely be right next to you.
Heart of Tarrasque: We saved the best for last. You know what Heart does, I don't have to tell you.
Oh, and Travel Boots are great in any hyper lategame situation.
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD PLEASE DON'T BUILD THIS WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING
Do yourself a quick favor. The next time someone suggests building MoM on Spirit Breaker, thank them; now you know to ignore absolutely everything they ever say for the rest of time. Mask of Madness is a horrible item in every scenario for every hero, except maybe on Faceless Void. Maybe. Every time I see a Spirit Breaker with a MoM I weep on the inside. Not because I'm afraid of him, but because of the lost potential for what could have been something magnificent. I don't even bat an eyelash when a Spirit Breaker with Mask charges me, because I know that as soon as he gets stunned I can blow his face off in four seconds flat.
Seriously, Armlet will give you attack speed, health, damage, armor, what more do you want? Do you want an item that doesn't increase the damage you take by 30%? Because Armlet does that too.
VIII. Mindset Alright guys, take a seat. We need to talk about how you keep charging across the map.
Early game:
First of all, you need to acknowledge that you suck at first. You're probably going to the offlane, either solo or with a partner. If you're solo, ask someone to buy you wards. A good teammate will just be happy you have an interest in warding. If you're with a partner, especially if it's another carry, try to establish something as soon as possible: You need farm. Before level six, you're a liability to your team with no real utility. You need that experience as soon as possible, and your first couple items are crucial. If you're going to lane with a Bounty Hunter, let him know that he's gonna have all that farm all to himself once you hit six, but ask him for it before then.
If you're getting zoned or harassed out of lane, don't panic. Spirit Breaker is a hero that scales best off of levels rather than items. As long you can stay within XP range, you can afford to give up a few last hits. In disastrous cases where you're completely shut down such as playing solo offlane against a strong trilane, if you find yourself desperate don't be afraid to ask for rotations from your supports, or even for a laneswap with someone more suited to a suicide lane. Spirit Breaker can actually do remarkably well as a lane support in the early game, with a movespeed boost to help chase or escape and a guaranteed stun to give your carry time to close in for a quick kill or get away from a gank.
By the time you hit level three or four, your team might start demanding you gank their lanes. Ignore them. It doesn't matter how hard they complain, you need level six. By the time you charge around, get some damage on somebody, watch them run away without dying, and then get back to lane, you're going to have wasted your very precious early game time. Only charge as either an escape mechanism or if you're 100% sure you can secure a kill for you or your team. I'm not exaggerating when I say 100%. That Crystal Maiden better be limping through the river with 3 health and no TP scroll before you even consider charging her.
Charging:
Now before we go any farther, let's go back and remember what our number one counter to Spirit Breaker is: the enemy team communicating.
Sometimes we like to think our enemies are a group of braindead 14 year olds no more skilled than bots. This isn't true. They probably have wards up, they probably have wards up in places you don't expect them to. They probably have people with mics who are shouting out "BARA CHARGING" the moment they catch a glimpse of you on the minimap. This is why we always carry one of these:
A TP scroll!? But I'm Spirit Breaker, I can charge wherever I want! No, please god stop charging from top lane all the way down to bot lane. Spirit Breaker's strength in the early-game comes from his ability to show up out of nowhere. Out of nowhere. When you charge across the map you aren't showing up out of nowhere, you are loudly announcing your presence to any creep you happen to stomp on or any ward you hop past. Instead, TP down to the Tier 2 tower and charge from there. You'll be smashing Lina's face in before your lane even has the chance to call mia. It's also a great way to countergank, you can get to your buddy while he's in danger, rather than five minutes after he's already respawned. Always carry a TP scroll. I carry two, because I'm bad and forget to buy them at the side shop.
Pre-Armlet:
By the time you hit level six, you should have your treads. If not it's not a big deal, just get some more farm. With your ult and, at level seven, your level four Charge, you're now ready to gank. Watch the lanes, all three of them. Your time has not yet come, but it will soon. Does an enemy step across the river? Bad idea. Charge them. Most importantly, communicate your charge. Tell your team where you're going. If they don't speak english, spam ping your target until they start yelling at you. Draw your charge path on the map, a straight line that travels straight to Frown Town, Population: Sniper. If there's a lull in the action, grab some farm. Get your Armlet ASAP.
Post-Armlet:
Before, it was Crystal Maiden's time. In a half hour it'll be Spectre's time. But right now? Right now it's your time. With your Armlet wrapped around your muscular bovine, now is your time to shine. Hunt down your enemies, give them no quarter. Make them suffer. I said it before and I'll say it again: Spirit Breaker's true strength comes from his ability to crush the morale of the enemy team. There are a lot of ways to do it, and each Spirit Breaker comes upon his own method of breaking the will of their enemies. I'll go over just one possible way.
Pick a target. Someone squishy. Someone without an escape, or relies on a Shadow Blade or stealth mechanic to protect them. Pick them, focus on them. Charge them. Again, and again. Camp their lane, force them to go elsewhere. Put wards in their jungle. If they can't farm in their lane they'll be forced there. Nothing will protect them. Make it so that they can't go anywhere alone. Make them yell at their team, swearing and yelling at the support to wonder where the wards are. Make them complain about a lack of mias. Make them never want to play Dota, ever again. Stealth won't protect them. Grab some dust and throw it in the air when you charge Clinkz. Grab a sentry and slap it down when you charge Weaver.
This is your hour, and this is your game. Dominate the map, be everywhere at once. Dive towers if you want, your Armlet will keep you tanky enough to take the hits. Nothing will stop you. Now make me proud.
Lategame:
Well this is awkward... We're fifty minutes in and there are no rax down. So now things are different. You can't really gank anymore and you don't have the best split push in the world. You have some good antipush thanks to your charge, but you're not going to be farely useful in anything if you aren't insanely fed. By now, the carries will be doing much more damage to you, and Tinker and Furion will have more global presence than you.
First of all, stop charging everyone you see. I know it hurts, but nobody's going to be wandering around by themselves anymore. You're going to be charging to your death. Stick with your team, build aura items. You're transitioning to a more support role when it comes to your team. In a major teamfight, your goal should be to target the squishiest member of the enemy team and lock them the fuck down, especially if it's someone with a massive ult like Enigma or Warlock. Play safe, and work together with your team to ensure victory.
9. Friends & Foes Friends:
Special mention to N'aix for the infamous Charge Bomb combo. Other than that, you may notice a pattern in who I listed. Heroes with global presence will be able to ensure your dominance by assisting in your ganks, especially intelligence heroes who hit their peak in the mid game.
Foes:
Really, anyone that can stun you before you connect with your charge will be trouble, but special mention goes to these three who can easily interrupt your charge and leave you a sitting duck while the enemy team repositions around you. Also something important to note is to bring up these guys again:
Spirit Breaker's best friends can also be his worst enemies. Someone with strong global presence will be able to quickly respond accordingly to your gank or take advantage of the moment to push down a tower. And while it was a lot of fun having N'aix inside of you when you were charging people, smashing headfirst into what you thought was a squishy Drow Ranger only to have Lifestealer burst out of her like a bloody pinata is not a pleasant surprise.
X. Final Words First of all thanks to synapse, whose guide template I blatantly stole for the purpose of writing this. Also thanks to any Spirit Breaker who doesn't build a Mask of Madness. And a third thanks to you, for reading this, you lovely angel. If you like talking about how awesome I am watch me stream on twitch, where I mostly solo or play in a 2-3 stack with friends. If you have any questions, complaints, suggestions or disagreements, post them below and I'll be happy to blindly defend myself and ignore all criticism.
I'd like to add that MoM is half a fighting item and half a farming item (lifesteal + attack speed buff for quick jungle clears). Obviously SB isn't going to spending time farming jungle, so that side of its potential usefulness is also wasted. The only time you would build MoM is when you already have BKB and are really behind (in need of a miracle teamfight).
My personal favorite counterpick is bane, easy kill if you have teammates nearby or a very long disable to let you run the fuck away.
Also, no discussion of shadow blade? Was the bug where he could get the 150 dmg proc twice fixed?
On September 04 2013 14:33 synapse wrote: Great guide, and you're welcome
I'd like to add that MoM is half a fighting item and half a farming item (lifesteal + attack speed buff for quick jungle clears). Obviously SB isn't going to spending time farming jungle, so that side of its potential usefulness is also wasted. The only time you would build MoM is when you already have BKB and are really behind (in need of a miracle teamfight).
My personal favorite counterpick is bane, easy kill if you have teammates nearby or a very long disable to let you run the fuck away.
Also, no discussion of shadow blade? Was the bug where he could get the 150 dmg proc twice fixed?
Yeah MoM is pretty much a Hail Mary sort of item, but to be honest I just... I hate seeing people with it so much. It makes me cringe every time. As for the Shadow Blade, I was under the impression that had been fixed, but I'd be happy to mention it if someone knows otherwise.
On September 04 2013 14:33 synapse wrote: Great guide, and you're welcome
I'd like to add that MoM is half a fighting item and half a farming item (lifesteal + attack speed buff for quick jungle clears). Obviously SB isn't going to spending time farming jungle, so that side of its potential usefulness is also wasted. The only time you would build MoM is when you already have BKB and are really behind (in need of a miracle teamfight).
My personal favorite counterpick is bane, easy kill if you have teammates nearby or a very long disable to let you run the fuck away.
Also, no discussion of shadow blade? Was the bug where he could get the 150 dmg proc twice fixed?
Yeah MoM is pretty much a Hail Mary sort of item, but to be honest I just... I hate seeing people with it so much. It makes me cringe every time. As for the Shadow Blade, I was under the impression that had been fixed, but I'd be happy to mention it if someone knows otherwise.
I think shadow blade is worth mentioning simply as a situational item vs a team / heroes that can easily stun you before you land your charge. Given that you're already playing spirit breaker in such a game, you gotta make your kit work somehow. Either way it gives you reasonable combat stats and a possible escape mechanism (esp in lower level pubs).
Shadow blade is actually not a bad item for Spirit Breaker. If the enemy is diligent about warding(they have good supports for some unknown reason, wow), a SB can't really gank even at the tip of his power. He needs smoke/shadowblade to get past the wards.
Infact I would recommend you put in a section under the teleport scrolls, talking about Smoke. Smoke will cover your charge(as you can use items while charging) and by time smoke breaks, your in their face, even if you charged directly down a lane past creeps. They probably won't know what hit them until it's too late.
MoM is fine,not the total idiocy your talking about. Just ensure you have a BKB next, no exceptions. Btw, where's the URN? Your a spirit breaker, you WILL be near kills/setting up kills, a Urn helps with your healing & adds some minor damage to your combo. Urn should always be a core in any Spirit Breaker.
My usual SB build is Boots-> Urn -> Treads into anything i want, usually BKB straight if they have a lot of stuns.
Oh if your facing smart teams. Diffusal. Yes you heard me, its situational as hell, but if the entire team has Ghost Sceptors, diffusal is a good item as any.
lothars halberd urn wand phase smoke all deserve mention also sb is a rly good dust and gem carrier mom isnt that bad, just situational armlet is pretty situational too, bkb and drums are really important
I was never a SB fan, but recently since his charge can stun everything it passes through, the idea has crossed my mind: what if he starts charging from a relatively near distance so the enemy team has no time to react, then his teammate uses a forcestaff to shove him through the enemy team to get an AOE stun?
Urn, shadowblade, and oov all deserve mentions. Other than that good guide.
Edit: urn is even more important if you're going armlet because otherwise you have no way to counter the health drain since you're not going lifesteal.
MoM used to be a very good item on SB. The problem is that his skills got reworked. Haste no linger adds damage to him. His sole damage boost comes from Bashes. In that regard, it means all MoM does is increasing the number of Bashes. You will not have enough normal right click damage.
Do note that Treant fucks SB up just like how he does against every other hero.
On September 04 2013 16:34 Firebolt145 wrote: Urn, shadowblade, and oov all deserve mentions. Other than that good guide.
Edit: urn is even more important if you're going armlet because otherwise you have no way to counter the health drain since you're not going lifesteal.
This is what a TL guide should be. Hilarious and informative.
I'd second the addition of urn, oov, shadowblade and especially smoke. Nobody in pubs buys smoke so you have the whole glorious cooldown to yourself, and bara makes fantastic use of it.
I'd also like to see a bit more detail on how to lane. You say his laning is ridiculously weak and RNG-based, but then never really mention what to do about that, other than reminding us to stay in lane until lvl6/7.
What are his priorities? What strengths can you abuse and what do you need to be careful of? What if you get zoned out? What can zone you out, and what can you confidently solo suicide against?
Stuff like that would be helpful. Still a fantastic guide as-is, though.
On September 04 2013 15:35 targ wrote: I was never a SB fan, but recently since his charge can stun everything it passes through, the idea has crossed my mind: what if he starts charging from a relatively near distance so the enemy team has no time to react, then his teammate uses a forcestaff to shove him through the enemy team to get an AOE stun?
Curious if anyone has tried this.
Forcestaff cancels charge. I remember this from a dota cinema mythbuster, the question was can you stop charge with Forcestaff.
Answer is yes. I figure ally forcestaff and enemy forcestaff doesn't change that
lvl 1 charge + netherstrike=1.6+1.6=3.2 second stun(lvl 4 bash)
Adding to that each bash you get gives you 0.6 second extra stun time from level 4 bash compared to level 1. So its quite probable that lvl 4 bash and level 1 charge will give you more stun then lvl 4 charge lvl 1 bash.
So the main tradeoff is the higher speed of charge vs the higher damage from more levels of bash. I generally prefer bash for the extra damage.
lvl 1 charge + netherstrike=1.6+1.6=3.2 second stun(lvl 4 bash)
Adding to that each bash you get gives you 0.6 second extra stun time from level 4 bash compared to level 1. So its quite probable that lvl 4 bash and level 1 charge will give you more stun then lvl 4 charge lvl 1 bash.
So the main tradeoff is the higher speed of charge vs the higher damage from more levels of bash. I generally prefer bash for the extra damage.
Yeah, I also think maxing charge first is worse once you reach level 6, also if you can charge through multiple people on the way to the target leveling bash can make a big difference in engagements.
Excellent understanding of the Charge!!! No problem with the skill build (if i was on safelane then i usually go 0-1-1 at lvl2; save points for hardlane bara so you can charge and run away) but item section is not satisfying to me
The big Urn is missing, it is so important in helping you secure the kill on some hero, making you deal that extra bit of damage in team fight and that healing will come in (very) handy.
The big Lothar for pub is missing. Try it and you will know how enemy hates you with that item!
Drum is actually a bad item on Bara, is not that the item is bad (it is good on any hero) but when playing Bara you are all about doing the burst damage and farming heroes, you go in and get out with gold, rinse and repeat, that's why Drum is 'bad' on Bara because it delays your other cores (Bracer is fine, but dropping 1.2k+ gold to finish the drum is not quite worthy), you dont quite need that extra mana, and you usually either die hard or own hard in team fight anyway so rarely you do some chase with the team (you just charge then), so the aura barely matters in half the cases. But then this is basically a guide of 'Armlet Bara' so a drum benefits you with that build.
Vlad: only get it when nobody in the team able to get it.
MoM is actually still one of the best items on Bara, due to its cost effectiveness, it is the 'fun' and 'we have massive advantage lets finish this asap' items, and obviously, dont get it when the oppo has tonnes of nukes or disable. I understand why do you dislike the item because it is usually how the typical pubtrash/troll bara throws their game with that item xD But seriously it is so good on the hero under specific situations which is hard for most players to judge so.
lvl 1 charge + netherstrike=1.6+1.6=3.2 second stun(lvl 4 bash)
Adding to that each bash you get gives you 0.6 second extra stun time from level 4 bash compared to level 1. So its quite probable that lvl 4 bash and level 1 charge will give you more stun then lvl 4 charge lvl 1 bash.
So the main tradeoff is the higher speed of charge vs the higher damage from more levels of bash. I generally prefer bash for the extra damage.
Yeah, I also think maxing charge first is worse once you reach level 6, also if you can charge through multiple people on the way to the target leveling bash can make a big difference in engagements.
All these maths hurt my eyes. Let's just saying if you could own with maxing bash first then chances is higher that you could have owned even harder by maxing charge first.
edit: unless your rng god is by your side in a game lol
MoM adds more bashes and increases the damage of his bashes. It also is far more difficult to escape from you with the movespeed buff of MoM and you aren't going to die due to the extra dmg in a 1v1 situation anyway. I don't think it's nearly as bad of an item as you say. I'd also say that as a single DPS item it gives you a higher chance of killing your opponent than Armlet does, which does not give you any movespeed and the aspd it gives is very low. Spirit Breaker synergizes with everything MoM gives extremely well.
Furthermore, Greater Bash also procs immediately when your charge finishes and hence the stun duration calculations you made are immediately made almost obsolete. Furthermode, the charge gives a high level Greater Bash a great damage boost as well and I don't understand why you act like damage does not matter. SpiritBreaker is not a support ganker, he's a solo ganker.
I was also maxing charge first, but since the buff that made sb proc a greater bash on his charged target, i usually max bash first for increased burst. Also as burningsera said, MoM is still a good stiuational item, if the ennemy team is lacking disable and you can get it early enough it will be easier to get solo kills. Also MoM allows you to farm jungle, which is interesting because you want to stay out of vision as much as possible. If you don't farm at all it's hard to keep the snowball going, i usually get some cs in jungle when my ult is on cd and look for opportunities.
i often find that Spirit Breaker's solution to a bad laning phase is solved by taking the solo offlane then abandoning the offlane. It's why Icefrog blessed us with items like boots and oov.
As others have pointed out, Shadowblade really needs mentioning. Smoke is also really good too.
That's why, kids, if you want to beat this imbalanced hero, you must gank him before he can build treads. For this I suggest either non-stop 5 man ganks on his lane for the first 10-15 minutes of the game, or a 5-man all mid strat that seeks to end the game as fast as possible.
Personally I think that forcestaff is the most underrated item on spirit breaker. Especially if playing offlane or support roles.
Recommended build
tango salve clarity (wards, currier, smoke etc.)
Depending on the lane you may or may not need a stout shield. If you are trying to farm get it. If you are just getting exp in long lane or pulling don't.
The goal is to pick up, plain boots, a magic stick, AND A TP SCROLL. Then gank when appropriate, find a little farm and esperience where you can and slowly pick up the components for a forcestaff. ALWAYS HAVE A TP. This allows you to tp to towers before charging for more effective ganks, being able to counter gank quickly, and TO GET AWAY after diving towers.
With just plain boots, a forcestaff, a magic stick, and a tp scroll. You can chase heroes even after using your full combo. You can get out of hairy situations (not only are you tanky, have atleast 2 sure stuns, but now you also have a way to reposition/escape in early scirmishes/fights).
After forcestaff and plain boots you can do anything. Depending on the level of farm you find.
Phase/bkb into AC etc Arcane + mech/pipe Even something as fun as dagon eblade
You need to be more distinguishing about how the hero's playstyle changes between an off-lane Bara and a safe-lane Bara. If you are safe lane, then free-farm until level 6 or 7 is fine. If you are off-lane in most cases you will want to get level 3 + Boots and then GTFO. This is because while your high base stats carry you in the lane when you are level 1-3, once support nukes start coming online, it becomes progressively riskier, meaning that you have to be ready to ditch the lane to gank, force the supports to respond to your movement, and TP back to the tower once the lane pushes to it to get farm.
On September 05 2013 00:02 HungrySC2 wrote: Personally I think that forcestaff is the most underrated item on spirit breaker. Especially if playing offlane or support roles.
Recommended build
tango salve clarity (wards, currier, smoke etc.)
Depending on the lane you may or may not need a stout shield. If you are trying to farm get it. If you are just getting exp in long lane or pulling don't.
The goal is to pick up, plain boots, a magic stick, AND A TP SCROLL. Then gank when appropriate, find a little farm and esperience where you can and slowly pick up the components for a forcestaff. ALWAYS HAVE A TP. This allows you to tp to towers before charging for more effective ganks, being able to counter gank quickly, and TO GET AWAY after diving towers.
With just plain boots, a forcestaff, a magic stick, and a tp scroll. You can chase heroes even after using your full combo. You can get out of hairy situations (not only are you tanky, have atleast 2 sure stuns, but now you also have a way to reposition/escape in early scirmishes/fights).
After forcestaff and plain boots you can do anything. Depending on the level of farm you find.
Phase/bkb into AC etc Arcane + mech/pipe Even something as fun as dagon eblade
This build is so next level to me that I'm like 'wat'.
On a serious note, force staff is not at all a good item on SB, especially a farming one. SB is a hero that dominates the midgame and you need to focus on items which build on that. Force staff gives you mana, something he doesn't need, and a bit of regeneration, which is pretty meh. The active is not that useful when chasing heroes is easy for you already.
Focus on items which build on your strengths. Leave force staff and arcanes for the supports.
Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
"Personally I think that forcestaff is the most underrated item on spirit breaker. Especially if playing offlane or support roles."
I can't think of another support hero in the game that can lock down an enemy hero for as long as SB. Forcestaff allows you to continue to do that or switch targets effectively. Even after using your full combo.
Spirit breaker is the most durable hero in the game at early levels AND he can play a support role or non farming role effectively.
SB in a support or non farming role is NOT to right click people for damage, but to use his charge to set up ganks, and to stay alive and find enough experience to reach level 6 reasonably quickly.
While extremely strong in early levels as a 4-5 role. He tapers off dramatically and becomes a 1 and done feeding machine. UNLESS you can work towards an item that makes him hard to kill AND allows him to reposition himself in fights and retain his usefullness throughout the fight. Unlike bounty hunters track, SB's passive isn't useful unless he stays alive.
As the game goes on suddenly your 4-5 position spirit breaker is staying alive longer, and is finding more farm than the opponents 4-5 heroes, and you can start working towards other useful supporting items, arcanes, mech, drums, vlads, pipe. Bkb, scythe of vyce, AC
It's fucking stupid that everyone thinks SB is a ganking/carry. He doesn't win man fights and doesn't hold up when he's focus fired. But he can be extremely annoying if he is not high enough priority to be focused down. If you aren't putting farm on a hero, but that hero is still having a large impact in fights, that's much more than can be said of many other strong early game supports.
On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote: Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS.
On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote: Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS.
It adds 8 damage at max bash if i'm not mistaken, not that exciting.
On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote: Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS.
It adds 8 damage at max bash if i'm not mistaken, not that exciting.
???
Spirit Breaker has 345 base MS with Treads, so unless you're MS capped, you're gaining 69 MS from Lothar's, which in turn means you're gettin +28 damage on max rank Bash.
The whole point of SB is max bash so that your ulti does their entire HP pool at level 7.
Any hero with a point-and-click stun can prevent charge regardless of level (Rubick, SD, etc) and any hero without is getting stunned regardless of charge level. Max bash is a billion times more damage on both charge and on ult.
Bonus: If you keep charge at low level by the time you get to your opponent it can sometimes be almost off cooldown again.
As in, SB bash isn't for right clicks, its for charge and ult. Hitting it on right clicks is a bonus but barely a relevant one compared to it's primary use.
Okay their entire HP pool is a bit of an exaggeration, but yes.
Prolly around 10 times. Its remarkably (at low levels) hard to kill enemies inside a 2 second stun with just right clicks. Its remarkably easy to kill them when they literally die to charge + ult.
This is the best guide I've yet read on TL. It had all the good info (fuck yeah no mom sb!) and was enjoyable to read.
I would also like to endorse shadowblade as a core, it really enhances your dps, maneuverability and survivability (dat ms).
I also think that the recommended skill build, while not bad, is a bit outdated. Back when nobody played sb ever ever ever, you maxed charge first with no further thought and life was good. However as sb has become relatively popular in dota 2 pubs (its a fucking space cow that charges things globally) people have actually begun to find some nuances of the hero which make it more effective in the hands of a skilled user (or bash-hacking piece of shit).
Skill build: 1 charge, 2 bash, 3 emp haste (one of the many builds I refer to as the 1/1/1), 4 bash, 5 bash, 6 ult, 7 bash, 8 charge, ...
The reasoning for this is as follows:
1) Charge is op. It is so op, that you can use it in creative and useful ways other than the braindead way everybody uses it (DURR KILL CM DURR). For example: Consider a standardish teamfight around 8-14 minutes that might take place in the midlane at either side's T1 there. Assuming that you are fast enough to use charge when a suitable target is in vision, you could position yourself appropriately, charge a target way in the back, and greater bash 2+ targets on your way to reaching that guy you charged, only to turn around during all of this stun and ult the fuck out of the guy you really wanted to focus. In this way, you just used charge sort of like telekinesis from rubick if he throws the target into a bunch of guys.
You can use this technique in many, many situations including...
2) ESCAPE! The extra .6 seconds really does matter when theres some piece of shit that might be able to chase you and take you out of charge when you just barely escape that 4man gank #themanskeepingmedown by charging another location on the map, bashing everybody around you (namely those fucks trying to kill you)
finally theres
3) Ability to solokill and overall damage-- you probably need to bash in order to kill anything. The extra 30% ms dps bonus from when you bash is highly significant in the early game. In this respect, sb is a bit like void in that you need to hax a bit in order to be very successful in any given game. The extra stun duration from charge is nice, but ultimately its unlikely that you find a kill without bashing even with the extra stun time (which in a treads/pretreads-inventory sb will only get you 1-3 attacks), and then if you do bash with a maxed charge at 7, it does very little damage compared to a level 4 bash at the same time (which does a shitton).
ASIDE: One of the reasons people get Mom on void is so that you can have 9999 attack speed in order to get the maximum number of bash procs in a given circumstance. What makes this viable is void has a huge fucking blue bubble that stops time in a really big aoe, thus decreasing the likelyhood that hes getting hit by many sources--meaning that the extra damage you take from mom is avoided by minimizing the number of people that can actually do anything to you for X seconds. While maxing your ais (bash potential) on sb is good (void damage bonus on bash similar to sb) the difference between void and sb is that everybody is gonna be fucking hitting you when you chargyolo into 5 guys--you dont have a big fucking blue bubble, so you are going to be very useless in the fight very quickly.
EDIT: I forgot that his ulti also applies a greater bash, which at level 1 isnt very scary (as opposed to 4). This adds to my third "bullet" of maxing bashSB first yields higher dps, and ability to solokill have a nice day
On September 05 2013 03:39 Sn0_Man wrote: The whole point of SB is max bash so that your ulti does their entire HP pool at level 7.
This is sort of the mindset I'm trying to push people away from. Because no, I don't think this is the whole point of Spirit Breaker at all. I think the whole point of Spirit Breaker is to establish absurd presence for your team, giving you map control and space for harder carries to farm while also locking down squishier enemies and preventing them from establishing a presence of their own.
If I want to deal massive damage, I can think of a dozen heroes that would be better picks.
Bonus: If you keep charge at low level by the time you get to your opponent it can sometimes be almost off cooldown again.
As hard as I try, I can't understand why you think this would be a bonus. It's a bonus that the charge is so slow that you waste enough time for it to be off cooldown again?
If your goal is to lock down a single target you might as well just kill them with max bash (150 dmg from charge bash, 150 from ult, 150 from ult bash). I mean, the stun duration is very very comparable given that SB manages less than 1 attack per second around level 7 with treads.
If your goal is to disrupt their team by charging through them you might as well take advantage of the fact that greater bash scales on duration with levels and is the only thing that is hitting more than one person.
I mean, whats the point of blasting into your enemies then doing no damage? Leaving charge at level 1 sacrifices so very little when compared to the incredible damage potential that SB can output. I'm not advocating SB as a nuker, I'm advocating him as a ganker. You are advocating him as a... well I'm not quite sure. Disabler? Why would you turn down hundreds of points of damage in burst for .8 seconds of stun (admittedly a lot) and a slightly faster charge. Early game nobody is close to mobile enough to handle your charge regardless of 600 or 750 ms.
I mean, nobody maxes dragon tail first on DK just because "its an incredible disable". everybody knows when you hit 6 dragon tail is a top tier disable, but there is simply no need to level it over your other skills until later. Charge is much the same. People don't pick DK for his nuke potential, but its damn nice to have it and there is no reason to turn it down just because you could have .75s more stun or w/e.
It's not like you don't do any damage without max bash. You do a fuck ton of damage thanks to SB's ridiculous base stats. The point of Charge is to allow you to be everywhere on the map extremely quickly - a global ganker. You have allies to help you deal damage as well.
On September 05 2013 04:37 Sn0_Man wrote: If your goal is to lock down a single target you might as well just kill them with max bash (150 dmg from charge bash, 150 from ult, 150 from ult bash). I mean, the stun duration is very very comparable given that SB manages less than 1 attack per second around level 7 with treads.
If your goal is to disrupt their team by charging through them you might as well take advantage of the fact that greater bash scales on duration with levels and is the only thing that is hitting more than one person.
I mean, whats the point of blasting into your enemies then doing no damage? Leaving charge at level 1 sacrifices so very little when compared to the incredible damage potential that SB can output. I'm not advocating SB as a nuker, I'm advocating him as a ganker. You are advocating him as a... well I'm not quite sure. Disabler? Why would you turn down hundreds of points of damage in burst for .8 seconds of stun (admittedly a lot) and a slightly faster charge. Early game nobody is close to mobile enough to handle your charge regardless of 600 or 750 ms.
I mean, nobody maxes dragon tail first on DK just because "its an incredible disable". everybody knows when you hit 6 dragon tail is a top tier disable, but there is simply no need to level it over your other skills until later. Charge is much the same. People don't pick DK for his nuke potential, but its damn nice to have it and there is no reason to turn it down just because you could have .75s more stun or w/e.
Hundreds of points of damage? You must be out of your mind. It's almost like you think I'm maxing bash last. By level 10 you're going to have max bash anyway, but between levels 7-10 you don't need the damage, which is going to be fairly negligible anyway, you need the guaranteed kill. By the time you get your armlet you should have max bash and max charge, giving you the opportunity to be the 100-0 you seem to think he is. The point of maxing charge first is to guarantee kills in the early game pre-armlet, as opposed to relying on the risk of maxing bash.
This is actually part of why I think the guide needs to distinguish between off-lane and safe lane SB.
Safe lane SB can max Bash first if you want because you will gain levels comparatively quickly, and with items you will quickly become a solo-killing threat. There's actually some merit to an SB that can kill things alone, which is where Bash max shines with safe lane levels and free-farm.
Off-lane SB simply doesn't gain items or levels fast enough to be a solo-kill threat anyway, so there's basically no point at which you can say that he would chunk 3/4 of someone's HP, even if you did max Bash. So in this case, you'd rather max Charge, given how comparatively late you get your level 6 as an off-laner and how much fewer items you get.
EDIT:
Here's a video of 820 playing SB in a high level Chinese pub (820+QQQ+Dai+Lanm+Crystal pubstack vs. PCT-led pubstack).
While 750 ms is undeniably a lot faster than 600, I don't find myself having issues getting places with SB. The issues primarily occur when the enemy has more backup than I do.
Conveniently, low levels of charge are MORE conducive to my allies arriving at fights than my enemies (since my allies are informed and have vision for much longer). And high levels in bash help mitigate the enemies because they essentially die easier. A lot easier.
I mean, TP'ing places is generally still faster than charge at any level if you are having problems being "global" enough, especially early game when its quite unlikely you are lacking more than a tower or two. The real benefits from higher levels of charge become apparent well after you hit level 11. The ability to punish split pushers and to be (more) mobile without relying on TP's isn't so crucial at level 6-7.
E:
On September 05 2013 04:43 dmcRedgrave wrote: The point of maxing charge first is to guarantee kills in the early game pre-armlet, as opposed to relying on the risk of maxing bash.
You are thinking this backwards. Armlet helps a charge-max build because its a reliable right-click-damage output item that enjoys reliable stun time. Without finishing armlet charge max is painfully low damage since you get LESS THAN 1 RIGHT CLICK EXTRA from your extended stun time while you get ~120 damage on every target from the additional levels of bash. Double that damage when you include ultimate.
TL;DR: Armlet appreciates a stunned target since it helps you whack that guy. Once you have armlet then a charge-max becomes more important (and the timing probably coincides with a level 10 charge max). pre-armlet, bash is far more damage RELIABLY.
PS: with ultimate the stun durations are within .2 seconds of each other, since ulti stun scales off of bash as well.
I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
On September 05 2013 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote: Charge is so much better when you can communicate well and plan with your allies about where you're gonna strike next.
Equally true for all levels of the skill yes
On September 05 2013 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote: Low levels of charge give the enemy longer to react to you should they see you with wards. This is especially relevant the higher skilled you are.
If the opponent sees you with wards you are doing something wrong. Smoke or charge via a different path. This is especially relevant the higher skilled you are.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
The old SB gained damage based on his MS as part of his aura skill (rather than it being part of his bash) so it made a lot of sense to level the aura somewhat. Circumstantial, but it did used to be good before the partial remake.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
You got 16% of your MS as damage on every hit. At level 7 with just Treads, you were getting 60+ damage per hit off of it, which is way more damage than you get on Bash procs at the same level now, even with 2 guaranteed bashes.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
You got 16% of your MS as damage on every hit. At level 7 with just Treads, you were getting 60+ damage per hit off of it, which is way more damage than you get on Bash procs at the same level now, even with 2 guaranteed bashes.
Damn you and your math.
Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
On September 05 2013 05:14 dUTtrOACh wrote: I wonder why I ever used to put early points into empowering haste after trying out a higher bash with lower charge build. Mordi makes up for lack of points in empowering haste so much, and past level 6 it's just charge - nuke.
Because Empowering Haste was flat-out his best skill before the remake?
You got 16% of your MS as damage on every hit. At level 7 with just Treads, you were getting 60+ damage per hit off of it, which is way more damage than you get on Bash procs at the same level now, even with 2 guaranteed bashes.
Damn you and your math.
Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
The discussion was about Charge vs Bash unless I missed something. Leveling aura before Bash is far more situational. I don't think it's a good idea most of the time. Maybe if you go full suppor SB, but that hardly happens in pubs. Bash is a big portion of your damage and you have 2 guaranteed procs.
On September 05 2013 05:41 Plansix wrote: Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
A) Yango said aura WAS your best skill pre-remake. He isn't advocating an early max of it now. B) How is upping bash better when you didn't get them for free? previously, upping bash was pretty questionable since it was so luck based, and was only a guarantee on your ultimate. The fact that it is now guaranteed to hit a target twice (once with charge, once with ult) is what makes it so absurdly attractive to max asap now. Free damage, no uncertainty whatsoever.
In general, aura ranks beyond the first are very situational based on your team. There are a lot of heroes that do use free MS very well and need it to engage fights smoothly, but there are also a lot of heroes that have no use for it. A second or 3rd Aura rank CAN be good depending on your team, but it's somewhat rare.
On September 05 2013 05:41 Plansix wrote: Also, I agree with Yango that the aura is better than bash early. Before, when the charge did not automatically proc a bash, upping bash was reasonable. But no longer and and going faster is always better. It makes ganks easier to pull off, easier to time and it is easier for your team mates to follow up or get you out.
A) Yango said aura WAS your best skill pre-remake. He isn't advocating an early max of it now. B) How is upping bash better when you didn't get them for free? previously, upping bash was pretty questionable since it was so luck based, and was only a guarantee on your ultimate. The fact that it is now guaranteed to hit a target twice (once with charge, once with ult) is what makes it so absurdly attractive to max asap now. Free damage, no uncertainty whatsoever.
Ah, I was wrong then, it must have been Firebolt's post, or I misread. In general, I just like going faster and having higher movement. I prefer to follow up and have the ability to do so, or get out if the things turn out to be not what I expected. The games you folks play might be tighter and you just need that extra damage to finish them off. But from my limited SB experience, upping the aura to about level 3 first always felt better than going for level 3 bash.
On September 05 2013 03:39 Sn0_Man wrote: The whole point of SB is max bash so that your ulti does their entire HP pool at level 7.
This is sort of the mindset I'm trying to push people away from. Because no, I don't think this is the whole point of Spirit Breaker at all. I think the whole point of Spirit Breaker is to establish absurd presence for your team, giving you map control and space for harder carries to farm while also locking down squishier enemies and preventing them from establishing a presence of their own.
If I want to deal massive damage, I can think of a dozen heroes that would be better picks.
Bonus: If you keep charge at low level by the time you get to your opponent it can sometimes be almost off cooldown again.
As hard as I try, I can't understand why you think this would be a bonus. It's a bonus that the charge is so slow that you waste enough time for it to be off cooldown again?
How is doing massive burst not establishing an "absurd presence?" I definitely think charge first or haste first was the best build before the patch, but with the guaranteed first hit bash after charge, it makes it so that there's about a 0.6 second difference between in stun time between bash first and charge first, with the caveat being an extra 120-130 dmg. The point of a spirit breaker charge is to GET KILLS which means you should be maximizing efficiency. Obviously there are situations where the extra stun is preferable (against invis heroes and blink heroes), but bash first should still be your go to build.
Moreover, MoM is a stunningly effective build in the right situation. A free farm sb with treads MoM by 10ish mins is an absolutely devastating ganking force, especially if the other team doesn't have enough lockdown to deal with it.
Conclusion, build SB as you want, he's the pub king now, making every AP game a cow level without requiring wirt's leg. I almost never play the heroe, the only 2 times I played him since remake I just went yolo charge all around as a wardbitch and it worked wonder. I almost feel like farming reduced his early impact on the game which is insane because you're not forced to always be on the minimap and therefore it's not as obvious that you come. Same thing when I face SB, I prefer facing one farming than one roaming with brown boots, urn and wards.
On September 05 2013 01:02 Irratonalys wrote: Shadowblade is a great pickup for SB , depending on the situatation you can activate it during the charge to surprise someone with an escape , and add 150 damage to your combo , or keep it as an escape if your rushing dangerous territory. i always go boots -> urn - > power threads ->shadowblade
It actually adds more than 150 damage because the auto-bash that happens at the end of Charge uses your Lothar's-boosted MS.
It adds 8 damage at max bash if i'm not mistaken, not that exciting.
???
Spirit Breaker has 345 base MS with Treads, so unless you're MS capped, you're gaining 69 MS from Lothar's, which in turn means you're gettin +28 damage on max rank Bash.
My bad, i thought lothar's added 20 mouvements speed, not 20%, no idea why i thought that. I should try shadowblade one of these days, that's a lot of burst.
Thanks for the comprehensive guide on space cow! However your playstyle / view on the hero is largly different than mine. - I think maxing Bash first is the strongest option. Longer stun and more damage. Faster charge doesnt matter that much (the longer stun is good though). - MoM is good, its ias and movement speed, exactly what you want. It allows one to kill enemies in the charge + ulti duration, so the drawback doesnt matter. This works only if they dont walk grouped up, which is the case in most pubs. Its also a decent farming tool. - I dont think his laning is weak. He has very strong stats and can make kills happen with a good laning partner, just by charging + followup.
On September 06 2013 01:24 puissance wrote: Thanks for the comprehensive guide on space cow! However your playstyle / view on the hero is largly different than mine. - I think maxing Bash first is the strongest option. Longer stun and more damage. Faster charge doesnt matter that much (the longer stun is good though). - MoM is good, its ias and movement speed, exactly what you want. It allows one to kill enemies in the charge + ulti duration, so the drawback doesnt matter. This works only if they dont walk grouped up, which is the case in most pubs. Its also a decent farming tool. - I dont think his laning is weak. He has very strong stats and can make kills happen with a good laning partner, just by charging + followup.
When you max bash first you're relying on the enemy team to be dumb and expecting your own to not cooperate with you at all. Faster charge speed is BIG when you play with / vs coordinated teams.
MoM again should only be bought if you have a BKB and really need the dps. You shouldn't be sitting around farming anyway.
On September 06 2013 01:24 puissance wrote: Thanks for the comprehensive guide on space cow! However your playstyle / view on the hero is largly different than mine. - I think maxing Bash first is the strongest option. Longer stun and more damage. Faster charge doesnt matter that much (the longer stun is good though). - MoM is good, its ias and movement speed, exactly what you want. It allows one to kill enemies in the charge + ulti duration, so the drawback doesnt matter. This works only if they dont walk grouped up, which is the case in most pubs. Its also a decent farming tool. - I dont think his laning is weak. He has very strong stats and can make kills happen with a good laning partner, just by charging + followup.
When you max bash first you're relying on the enemy team to be dumb and expecting your own to not cooperate with you at all. Faster charge speed is BIG when you play with / vs coordinated teams.
MoM again should only be bought if you have a BKB and really need the dps. You shouldn't be sitting around farming anyway.
The only farming Spirit breaker does is when he is farming up the 5 big creeps on the map with all those special abilities.
On September 06 2013 01:24 puissance wrote: Thanks for the comprehensive guide on space cow! However your playstyle / view on the hero is largly different than mine. - I think maxing Bash first is the strongest option. Longer stun and more damage. Faster charge doesnt matter that much (the longer stun is good though). - MoM is good, its ias and movement speed, exactly what you want. It allows one to kill enemies in the charge + ulti duration, so the drawback doesnt matter. This works only if they dont walk grouped up, which is the case in most pubs. Its also a decent farming tool. - I dont think his laning is weak. He has very strong stats and can make kills happen with a good laning partner, just by charging + followup.
When you max bash first you're relying on the enemy team to be dumb and expecting your own to not cooperate with you at all. Faster charge speed is BIG when you play with / vs coordinated teams.
MoM again should only be bought if you have a BKB and really need the dps. You shouldn't be sitting around farming anyway.
The only farming Spirit breaker does is when he is farming up the 5 big creeps on the map with all those special abilities.
Ideally there are up to 9 big creeps with up to 5 of them having pretty questionable special abilities and all dying when you kill one meepo.
I usually go something like 2 points in charge then max bash and it works fine. People die either way and you most likely are creating space anyhow just by people knowing there might be a cow comming their way. My item build goes something like boots > urn > threads > drums > bkb/aghs/armlet depending on situation. Urn + drums early makes you much more usefull to the team when pushing and can save your teammates pretty often too. If I have a carry like naix for example, I sometimes even max aura before I max charge, silly huh?
Something that's worth noting on the charge v. bash discussion is that the speed boost really helps against heroes that can interrupt you.
At level 1, even non-instant stuns like impale can give you trouble if they see you coming and/or ground target. SS, lion and rubick can stop you dead with ease. At level 4, though, you cross the last stretch so fast that they have to have crazy reflexes to continue cockblocking you, especially if you smoke or come from fog.
On September 09 2013 18:31 Belisarius wrote: Something that's worth noting on the charge v. bash discussion is that the speed boost really helps against heroes that can interrupt you.
At level 1, even non-instant stuns like impale can give you trouble if they see you coming and/or ground target. SS, lion and rubick can stop you dead with ease. At level 4, though, you cross the last stretch so fast that they have to have crazy reflexes to continue cockblocking you, especially if you smoke or come from fog.
This is a good point. One of the proudest moments in my dota life is the hex, earthspike, finger combo on a sb undearneath tower and it gets exponentially harder the faster he goes. And yes hex is easy to do it with but if you dont see him coming its still fcking hard. But when you do get it Frowntown goes up to 2 pop and if you can do it reliably sniper probably moves out too.
I am a longtime LoL player and I just started playing Dota, but I have to say that I've had the most fun with this guy out of every hero/champ I've played in both games. It just feels so awesome charging across the whole map and then bashing their skulls in.
Also where I'm at nobody actually buys wards which means that I just charge everything on sight and go 20/3/20
This guide had me all pumped to learn him properly when I got back from vacation, and then I straightaway got like three games in a row where an enemy SB just 1a'd our whole team over and over, to victory.
Hahahaha me and my friends were just complaining about space cow over the weekend when we faced against him 3 games in a row... T~T hahaha very nice guide I play support so unfortunately I probably won't use this but I will show this guide to my friend who does! He just started playing dota like a couple months ago and he loves SB time to make some nerds cry!
On September 18 2013 08:07 Belisarius wrote: This guide had me all pumped to learn him properly when I got back from vacation, and then I straightaway got like three games in a row where an enemy SB just 1a'd our whole team over and over, to victory.
Now I've decided I don't want to be that guy.
a win is a win. just apologize for playing sb at the end + Show Spoiler +
I got to say SB is got to be my favorite hero for trolling pub. currently 9-1 with him hahaha even queing for solo pubs ( I guess i am lucky!)
I really cant hate MOM. This item is legacy great!
I sometimes build MOM with him simply because the enemy has no disable whatsoever at least 2-3 heroes are.
Also, you can choose when to activate it. You dont blindly activate it when you charge heros at 1st hit unless you are too lazy of sure you will own the heroes (mostly supports). Also if you do it would also make sense if you want to quick kill them. Charge stun + another for ulti would nulify the increase damage take.
other scenarios I would normaly activate it when:
1. the bash from charge wears off 2. Used ulti and 2-3 punches but still no bash (MoM makes the bash chance bigger) 3. finishing punch after the damage is done / chasing
Minor update: With the 6.79 change to Bara's ult, maxing Charge first is 500 times more important. You absolutely need the extended stun time or your ult is just going to be interrupted without a second glance. If anyone sees anything that appears to be 6.79 outdated, please let me know and I'll change it around.
TBH with 6.79 the best update to this guide would include detailed instructions to finding and pressing the repick button as that is the optimal spirit breaker strategy 90+% of games.
I agree with the charge max change and all. Its just that icefrog effectively deleted the hero.
MoM is really cheap and keeps a target stunlocked, especially if you go roaming quickly you can't afford really expensive stuff even if you get a couple of kills. Also in my opinion Spirit Breaker is a ganker / support you shouldn't try to charge people 1v1 in their tower you rather provide the stuns so your carry can get easy kills; MoM is a great item for that.
On November 14 2013 03:54 Sn0_Man wrote: TBH with 6.79 the best update to this guide would include detailed instructions to finding and pressing the repick button as that is the optimal spirit breaker strategy 90+% of games.
I agree with the charge max change and all. Its just that icefrog effectively deleted the hero.
If you think that icefrog "deleted" a hero by giving him a few nerfs without touching his core functionality and main draw, then I guess Wisp is deleted too.
Spirit Breaker provides absolutely absurd global presence and domination. So he does less damage now? Ok, I may deal less damage but I can still barrel across the map and smash headfirst into a squishy piece of support-meat. If you really honest to god think that 6.79 "deleted" Spirit Breaker, you probably weren't playing him right in the first place.
On November 14 2013 04:40 Sn0_Man wrote: Things SB used to do:
Show up, cast ult, shrug off the first stun, and murder ppl.
Things SB does now:
Shows up, dies to any stun/silence. Does no dmg.
Even with a bkb, he is now like 3x worse. Its embarassing.
Things SB used to do: Show up, stun the enemy, let the rest of your team get into position, cast ult, land ult, keep enemy permabashed.
Things SB does now: Show up, stun the enemy, let the rest of your team get into position, cast ult, land ult, keep enemy permabashed.
Spirit Breaker hasn't been changed at all. Ignoring his base attack speed nerf for a moment, he kept all of his main features.
Free Stunlock: Still got it. Ridiculous damage output: Still got it. Can charge across the entire fucking map: Still fucking got it.
When you look at all the things that they could have done that really would have "deleted" Spirit Breaker, ie Stun duration nerf, base damage nerf, charge speed nerf, the idea that making a change to his ult ruins him is laughable.
The only difference now is that instead of smashing your face headfirst onto the R button, you need to actually have half a brain in using your ult. You should never be in a position where you get stunned/silenced and instakilled. You know why? Because Spirit Breaker isn't supposed to be Rambo, diving six towers, trampeling past the entire map, and spasming back and forth like a rabid kangaroo.
If you use Spirit Breaker in coordinated ganks along with items like smoke and tp scrolls in order to bounce around the map without being seen you can be an unstoppable force.
So I'm sorry you can't 1a2a3a and get free wins anymore, but Barathrum will always be an amazing hero.
I think going 1-1-4-1 is the only viable build on him now, maxing charge really doesn't do anything expect for speed, once you get there faster..you are sort of useless. That being said, its the build that I also see most pros use 95% of the time.
Did his charge got changed in 6.80? I always eat two bashes when he charges me, as if he charged through me and gets the charge-attack. It's really weird and i had more than one game where the enemies' sb didnt need his ult at all to kill supports, even without a big level and gear advantage (like 1 or 2 levels and 2k gold). He gets a first or second hit bash and the support ate 5 hits with three bashes in a row while being perma-bashed.
I agree though that his ult is really useless now. It gets canceled most of the time.
On February 09 2014 05:25 Blackfeather wrote: Did his charge got changed in 6.80? I always eat two bashes when he charges me, as if he charged through me and gets the charge-attack. It's really weird and i had more than one game where the enemies' sb didnt need his ult at all to kill supports, even without a big level and gear advantage (like 1 or 2 levels and 2k gold). He gets a first or second hit bash and the support ate 5 hits with three bashes in a row while being perma-bashed.
I agree though that his ult is really useless now. It gets canceled most of the time.
i played him 2 or 3 times after 6.80 and i also think that you often get a first hit bash after charging someone now. At first i thought it was just luck but it happened a lot.
You know how Rubick can auto-attack while charging? Spirit Breaker can as well so you don't see the beginning of his animation of his first auto after hitting Charge. That's all.
On February 09 2014 09:46 hariooo wrote: You know how Rubick can auto-attack while charging? Spirit Breaker can as well so you don't see the beginning of his animation of his first auto after hitting Charge. That's all.
Thank you, didnt know that (never noticed Rubick did it). So charge at certain attack speed (or always? how does that charge-auto-attack scale with the attack-speed? Is the charge-attack animation-canelling?) always becomes 2 hits (1 while charging and 1 as in the description) and the enemy got lucky and essentially bashed with their first attack multiple times.
Wtf, is the description wrong? Because the odds that bash->charge-bash->bash or bash->charge-bash->attack->bash happens is like 5% and he did it multiple times. Or is he just the Admiral Bulldog of cows?
Been playing the new Spirit Breaker with 4/1/4 and I fucking love it. It takes a bit before until I have Urn, then once I get that and the low CD for Charge makes fights so fucking easy.
I think this thread didn't insist enough on the psycholgical strategies to use when playing The Space Cow.
I experimented few strategies based on insisting on how retard you truly are:
1) yelling in all chat :
"RETARD CHARGE!!"
few seconds before hitting a single support going on an adventure to pose an offensive ward.
2) saying in all chat after a successful "gank" :
"BEHOLD MY ALMIGHTY RETARDNESS AND DESPAIR"
3) when the midgame goes right as planned and that all squishy heroes in the ennemy team have 0-3 to 0-7 stats. the classic but that never gets old:
"I HAVE SO MUCH SKILL OMG LOOK AT MY STATS! L2P BUNCH OF NOOBS!"
It is important to continue this flame as long as you are still in the midgame. Your goal is to make one of your opponent ragequit/chickfeeding before they realize they can rekt you late game.
Special Tactics :
if you spot an angry man in the ennemy team that respond to you and flame you . Charge him all the time,he is the most succeptible person to rage against his teammate for not helping him and thus create chaos and despair in the enemy team.
On February 09 2014 05:25 Blackfeather wrote: Did his charge got changed in 6.80? I always eat two bashes when he charges me, as if he charged through me and gets the charge-attack. It's really weird and i had more than one game where the enemies' sb didnt need his ult at all to kill supports, even without a big level and gear advantage (like 1 or 2 levels and 2k gold). He gets a first or second hit bash and the support ate 5 hits with three bashes in a row while being perma-bashed.
I agree though that his ult is really useless now. It gets canceled most of the time.
You greater bash every enemy you charge through. The radius of that bash is larger than him, so when you hit an enemy, that greater bash will proc, then the charge stun will proc.
Anyone figure out how to skill Spirit Breaker? I thought max Q was the way to go and I am very successful overall, but I see a lot of people going back to maxing Bash then W then Charge
It's personal preference. All his skills are one point wonders and their scaling is meh. People max bash first cause its the only skill that gives damage so you can say that it improves your solo killing potential. I think maxing charge is overall better since you will be charging a lot early and midgame, it's definitely better for ganking.
I max the bash first. It's his damage, without levels on it the damage is small. But the chances are the same, if you think your teammates can deal enough damage you might just put a level on it.
get at least 1 level in the other two skill. I prefer to max aura next. Is really good now, specially now with the active, is better than drums, it's spammable, the extra ms for you team wins a lot of early engagements. I prefer aura over charge.
I think you only need to max charge if you are always doing very long distances charges, or have to chase fast runners or storms or some shit.
I would say maxing bash on an offlane sb is better because the aoe effect of your charge disrupting fights is stronger, you can trade harass more effectively, and the bonus damage from charging + ulting + attacking outweighs the slower charge speed and .2 second shorter stun combo at level 7.
If you are playing a support spirit breaker that needs to be effective and reliable before 6, I think leveling charge is generally better as the increased speed and longer stun duration justifies the reduced damage before your get your ultimate.
I guess the choice generally comes down to whether you think your impact is more important in the pre-6 period versus the 7-12 period.
Charge max stun is not much higher than bash. Also it doesn't stack with the bash, and it deals no damage, only the base.
I do not approve of Charge first. It is more than situational.
My normal build is max bash, 1-1-1 on level 3. On items i get urn and drums, stats ftw. Unless I'm against storms or lycans or stuff, i max aura after bash.
I usually play sb as support, sometimes offlaner. I could argue about maxing aura first, it makes you kinda unkillable in lane, and no one escapes you. But bash is where your damage is.
But srsly the aura with the new active is just too strong, it's free drum charges. No escapes from small skirmishes, or you can always escape from them.
i guess max aura first is good then for the reason you listed. but I would argue charge first is preferable, as it is a 2.4 second reliable stun, vs a 1.6 second maybe stun for 17% of the time, especially with his bad attack animation.
I don't think I've ever maxed Charge first over Bash but I also haven't played the dagon build yet. I'm leaning towards it in thta case because the increased speed is actually rather important in that you maximize your chance of Charge hittin, ulting, then dagoning as opposed to running the additional risk of that combo and the damage getting prevented because you wanted a lucky bash or two that gank.
I am 1-1-1 at level 3, and 2-1-2 at level 5. After the ult I then max bash. Following that I choose between charge or the aura depending on what my team is like. All together? Get the aura. Charging by myself or pushing out lanes? Charge to get to the fight faster.
One of my friends who plays Spirit Breaker tells me that you should always have 2 points in charge by level 6, since the slight increase in stun duration means that with the cast pt + delay of nether strike, 2 points in charge guarantees perfect chainstun if you Q -> R.
On February 13 2015 08:38 xxpack09 wrote: One of my friends who plays Spirit Breaker tells me that you should always have 2 points in charge by level 6, since the slight increase in stun duration means that with the cast pt + delay of nether strike, 2 points in charge guarantees perfect chainstun if you Q -> R.
This is true.
I normally go 2-1-2 -> 2-1-4-1 -> 4-1-4-2 recently too.
On February 16 2015 22:16 Torte de Lini wrote: My biggest complaint about Spirit Breaker leveling is that they all scale like shit but I want them all maxed.
which is why you get solo offlane or have a shitty game. Works great with a jungle hero, lifestealer obviously being a favorite.
Havent played the hero in a while and yesterday just crushed with him but it was wierd that he was stopping attacking randomly when im attacking creeps.
Whenever you kill a creep he just stops and is doing nothing, never seen this with any other hero.
Hero is pretty good this patch, 2 points in charge before maxing Bash and then maxing Charge. I used to go Blade Mail after Urn of Shadows, but I see the appeal in Shadow Blade.
Sometimes I feel going full Silver Edge is not really worth it; though the extra Str. is al'right.
My other inquiry is that I never know what to get after Silver Edge if I don't need BKB yet. I went MKB in my last game and that worked out pretty good: Moon Shard, Satanic or Assault Cuirass were also decent, but was hoping for something a bit cheaper if I wasn't snowballing so well.
On May 27 2015 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote: My other inquiry is that I never know what to get after Silver Edge if I don't need BKB yet. I went MKB in my last game and that worked out pretty good: Moon Shard, Satanic or Assault Cuirass were also decent, but was hoping for something a bit cheaper if I wasn't snowballing so well.
Moon Shard's not really that good unless you're crazy fed because after Lothar's you kinda need at least a half-defensive/half-offensive item. AC Halberd S&Y etc. all fine. Note that despite the game trying to indicate otherwise, maims from Sange, Halberd, S&Y and Silver Edge all stack fully with each other (as in, the maims from each item are treated as different buffs with no interference with each other--duplicates of the same item still don't stack).
On May 27 2015 08:26 Fencar wrote: Last time I played SB I went for the swag treads urn dagon (1 only) build. I could solo kill pretty much any hero on the enemy team with that.
On May 27 2015 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote: My other inquiry is that I never know what to get after Silver Edge if I don't need BKB yet. I went MKB in my last game and that worked out pretty good: Moon Shard, Satanic or Assault Cuirass were also decent, but was hoping for something a bit cheaper if I wasn't snowballing so well.
Moon Shard's not really that good unless you're crazy fed because after Lothar's you kinda need at least a half-defensive/half-offensive item. AC Halberd S&Y etc. all fine. Note that despite the game trying to indicate otherwise, maims from Sange, Halberd, S&Y and Silver Edge all stack fully with each other (as in, the maims from each item are treated as different buffs with no interference with each other--duplicates of the same item still don't stack).
Lothar's or Silver Edge?
I felt Moon Shard was a bit over-the-top after I got it; with MKB or Assault Cuirass, it is probably better.
I feel S&Y is perhaps gotten too late after SE and potentially BKB
next item is usually bkb or niche utility depending on comp (halberd/diffusal/euls huehue). aura bitch is nice too but SB's late game is so incredibly dependent on how the early game went so I'd just worry about your dagon/SB timings.
i feel like silver edge isn't even that great unless you are for sure charging a carry with a retarded passive every single fight (bristle/void/PA) but that means you're not charging a backline support for the instagib so it's ehhhh
You usually don't have a choice because without BKB you usually need to abuse the fact that you can activate SB/Silver while charging to guarantee that you don't get stunned out of your charge. Even with BKB you usually don't want to waste precious seconds off your BKB activating it early during your charge over just using the SB active.
I've been playing support cow and I noticed SB only becomes a hero from level 2 onward. So I came up with the idea of buying iron talon and a ward (perhaps a smoke with the remaing 50) and kill the hard camp at level 1 to go straight to level 2, buy courier and whatever you can afford then suicide and charge back to lane, usually I'm back in time for the 2 min rune with bash, charge, some regen and full health/ mana.
I was wondering whether it's worth doing that over helping out your lanes from level 1?
On January 25 2016 04:10 Saechiis wrote: I've been playing support cow and I noticed SB only becomes a hero from level 2 onward. So I came up with the idea of buying iron talon and a ward (perhaps a smoke with the remaing 50) and kill the hard camp at level 1 to go straight to level 2, buy courier and whatever you can afford then suicide and charge back to lane, usually I'm back in time for the 2 min rune with bash, charge, some regen and full health/ mana.
I was wondering whether it's worth doing that over helping out your lanes from level 1?
Interesting idea, but remember that not all hard camp spawns get you to level 2, so depending on RNG this could be a horribly inefficient leveling strategy.
Yeah I know, I cut trees between hard and medium camps for vision to maximize the odds of getting the right camps. With bad luck you have to kill an extra small creep from another camp which takes some 30 seconds extra. I haven't figured out the most reliable way to do this yet. I suppose I can stack the camp as well. I'm mostly wondering whether it's worth it in general.
On January 25 2016 05:17 Saechiis wrote: Yeah I know, I cut trees between hard and medium camps for vision to maximize the odds of getting the right camps. With bad luck you have to kill an extra small creep from another camp which takes some 30 seconds extra. I haven't figured out the most reliable way to do this yet. I suppose I can stack the camp as well. I'm mostly wondering whether it's worth it in general.
You hit 2 off stack + pull or double pull, I'm not entirely convinced this is any better than that, considering the much higher investment required to do this.
Me neither, it's just that I rarely ever get to even do solo pulls. Most of the time when we're against a solo lane the camp is warded or the lane is being contested/ there's an extra support leeching exp. Watching my replays I just tend to have a lot of games where I stay lvl 1 for a long time and have very little impact until I have the basic requirements to roam.
Edit: Downside is that you delay boots quite a bit, upside is that you can help out any lane that needs it and charge there for "free". It gives a bit of leeway being able to choose your lane and ferry out wards/ regen as needed. And dewarding cliffs becomes a non-issue. I'll spam some SB tomorrow and report back!
It could be worth it if you have another support pulling in your safelane--ive seen goblak buy iron talon on stuff like support omni and jungle the camps behind mid lane for levels (while still near to potentially bail out his mid)
If your camp is getting blocked you need to run to your easy camp asap, generally on both sides there's a 10-15 second delay before people start moving to place their ward / block people from placing their ward, so if you get a head start and move right away you can either see exactly where they place it or zone them from placing it in the first place
been spamming this cow thing a lot in my offlane / support games in ranked, been going really well so far. I'm just gonna share some of my thoughts and experiences and hopefully get a discussion rolling again. I'm intending to grind offlane role until i hit 5k and probably will be playing this cow a lot a lot a lot.
I think this hero is pretty flexible in terms of item build, but you probably want to rush urn first. midas situationally is good too. I think the "core" item on sb needs to be the following:
urn, boot (i usually leave it at brown if I'm utility), oov, windlace, stick/wand, tps.
these cores are dirt cheap you can buy as you go, which leaves you light on farm and heavy on gankings. Usually early levels boot+windlace+oov is extremely potent, and I would try to have all 3 while rushing urn. Honestly urn is the best item on this hero, it adds some sorely needed extra damage during a charge, and give you the ability to heal up after engage/disengage while waiting for a charge cd.
you basically have 2 concepts, either you are expected to deal damage, or you are expected to just give disables and controls and utilities. I honestly think spirit breaker's damage output is pretty mediocre, and running him as utility is stronger. You can sort of "force" him into a semi-carry role if he really gets the ball rolling, but I do not think under equal skill levels that is likely at all unless you get lucky (correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not see him find the space to farm and get carry items). If you're forced to play a "core" role I guess get early midas is essential as he cannot farm fast at all. I'd get it after your core items (i.e. after completing urn)
for utility role go fast 1-1-1 build and max out charge before the bash.
It is curious but bash is actually magic damage, and the bash upon finishing charge, and the bash upon nether-strike does NOT come with its own auto-attack. i.e. they're just greater bash applied as spells rather than an auto-attack after your charge lands, and another auto-attack after your nether strike. For that reason your combo is weaker than you think it is... actually a lot weaker, about 600-ish damage without extra bash proc and 1, 2 auto attacks thrown in.
prepping for greater bash is pretty important (abuse pseudo random), especially if you're expected to deal more damage in a gank. My rule is hitting creeps 4 - 5 times, if no bash is proc, I'm good to go. The chances of getting a greater bash in your combo is more than 60%, which is about 150 extra damage (after reduction).
I don't really have a niche item build for this guy, so I'm open to some interesting but effective item suggestions... so far _THE_ item for the hero is urn, all other items seem bit mediocre, even echo sabre is kind of meh since you can prep your bashes on creeps before a charge. I toyed around with phase-boot which looked pretty nice on paper as it gives you near max movespeed while disengaging or chasing w/o having to commit charge, I've also found glimmer / orchid situationally pretty useful. I guess dagon is pretty niche but it's pretty gimicky, you had to stay in lane to get 6 and go for some really good kill secures to get it early enough to be worth it (if you get a late-ish dagon it's not worth it because you probably missed early rotations before you hit lvl 6)
any comment/discussion would be great, again trying to really grind some mmr with this cow guy lul
(also thoughts on iron talon? his base armor is pretty good so he doesn't really lose hp much at all when jungling with a pms)
I feel iron talon is pretty good when the game doesn't work out your way (you know, bad coordination, 1 or 2 failed charges and... it can go south). It's good for catch up farm, be it in lane or neutral camps (not for the armor, but for the active - and bonus dmg, ofc).
I also feel like Shadow Blade is a no brainer. Invisible charges, I mean... yeah. Plus Silver Edge is a very good item. And bkb.
Bit boring but that's what I find the most efficient -> urn -> SB (-> silver edge) -> bkb.
I agree with urn as a core item. Your kill participation is usually very high, making you a good urn carrier.
Other then urn, stick, tp, boots and often dust, not much is set in stone. In most games I need bkb eventually. I prefer to build a smaller item first though. It could be vlads, drums, blademail, echo etc.
I watched bunch of high level sb stats (on dotabuff, sb played by sonekko and high mmr spammers etc) they usually build vlad as a second "core" item after the urn.
although they also go for tread, which I don't know if it adds that much at all, franky I don't see you sticking to a single target in a team fight and dishing out some good right clicks, you probably have to run for your life after the initial charge as the aggro is huge on you when you first run in and as initiator you really can't afford to die (the more you die, the more weaker you become in terms of farm/exp/items and the more you're unable to initiate properly)
Especially if you use echo sabre which makes attack speed pretty much moot, you'll get a double hit with the initial stun from charge, after that you ult, which can probably buy you enough time to proc another double hit, all-in-all you get about 5 auto-attacks in with echosabre already, and I don't see how tread adds that much value at all.
I'm thinking if you're committed to echo-sabre might as well go for PHASE BOOT, that way each of your attack (and extra procs from echo sabre) would be that much more efficient, activate phase to run-away is nice, activate phase gives you more damage on bash as well (about 100 bonus speed which is 50 extra damage per bash)... thoughts? Assume you get 5 auto-attack in during your combo, with a phase boot that's 120 extra damage from auto-attack alone.
TLDR: I think phase + echo-sabr is stronger pairing than tread+sabr, thoughts? I'll go demo-mode and test it and report some results
I only play SB as support but echo would delay BKB that you want to go highground in the case the game is going well, if the game goes longer, chances are shadow blade/glimmer cape will do more for you at the same price to be even more annoying on the map.
Treads are just cheap stats which makes your peak even stronger. The difference is not huge when you finished farming an echo sabre but you want to take the game by storm way before you farm 3K gold so it's not just a case of synergy with echo sabre imo, it's more about power curve. The real question would be to upgrade boots or not if the early game did not go too well as their stats boost would be less meaningful. On the other hand, if you want echo sabre, maybe the extra farm treads provide might be better.
I would argue if you want to snowball sabre is even better since the build up is really smooth, bkb would require you to actually farm for some of the bigger components and echo sabre you build as you go and if you die (quite often) you can spend your reliable gold by spamming the quick-buy key
I think phase boot is legit... you can do so much kiting with it the utility is insane. I think I would value it over tread anyday now... you run in, stun ppl, eat some spells and activate empowering haste and phase boot to run away at 500 movement speed and use urn to heal up and go again.
I have never been impressed by echo on SB. The double hit always feels lackluster to me, I never had 2 quick bashes (maybe there's a cd on bash?). The slow effect seems wasted, because they are stunned most of the time anyway - I mean, I can clearly tell when and why to use echo sabre slow with riki, LS, etc, but with SB, I don't even know when it occurs.
Mana regen is arguably useless too. To me, SB wants to charge, fight, TP to fountain, rince and repeat. And if you can't charge, you want to stay off vision, so probably jungle, and echo doesn't really do anything for SB jungling.
I don't know, yes the item in itself is crazy good and easy to make, but I feel it just doesn't work with Spirit Breaker.
On the other hand, I remember being totally owned by obnoxious MoM SB. That can ruin your day, and it does help for out-of-vision farm (aka jungle). Vlad sounds good too, provided you have normal allies (willing to regroup + some right clickers).
In the end, Shadow Blade is just too strong for the hero purpose, to pass up. They won't see you coming, that's often the difference between a successful or a failed gank, I find. And I'm really not a Shadow Blade user, I don't like the item but it just works with SB. So much so they have the same freaking initials, making typing this post a pain, right SB SB >_>
And it opens up the way for Silver Freaking Edge, which is absurdly edgy indeed, in itself and on SB (I don't know how that works but the first hit - charge impact - often seems to remove like 1/3 of their HP, it's obscene).
Still to this day i dont understand why icefrog never did an complete overhaul on SB, he changed him a bit i get that but 1 his ultimate is so horrible especially scale wise for instance if you look at him, he is sort of like a pudge but works diffrent way, the diffrence here is pudge has flesh heap.
One thing to solve this would simply be make his ultimate scale with str values. thats is one way to do it, second his aghanim is so godamn awful its one of the worst, against good teams its not very often its worth running away then back in again. or for that matter.
Aghanim needs a rework that is for sure. second i would like to se his greater bash changed so when it proccs he gains movement speed instead add it so he is immune to all snare and slow éffects for 0.5/1/1.5/2 seconds and if you have a slow effect on you it dispells it also.
this would make him being the dip in dip out kind of guy.
i also feel sure he is good at lets hit the carry keep him stunned and out of the way, the problem i have here we already have other heroes that stun on hit, sure SB can stunlock and it lasts longer but the amount of rng here its just pathetic.
and this is even with Pseudo rng invovled.
buff his bash or rework it to somthing more reliable and nerf his ult or change it im fine with that, but the amount of rng of success behind this hero is just laughtable.
Dont get me wrong here, he is still a good hero he is not bad the problem i have the amount of sucess in a game with this hero with so much rng involved is just pathetic.
and tbh aghs on him making him immune to stun and give his charge a charge system so you can charge then charge then charge again. and keep his ult as it is. would be 10 times better.
Number of charges and numbers had to be tweaked sure.
But vs good players this hero is so weak, and easily countered, thats the biggest concern.
So lets sum up his flaws, heavily dependant on opponents picks and your picks one of the most, he is very RNG based especially earlygame.
he scales horribly for being a tank/disruptor he is on the level as axe, problem here is axe is reliable and he is more reliable on getting aoe stuns of gl on that with sb.
Sure you can give the excuse axe needs a blinkdagger, but thats is not a good excuse its bad design. becuse getting that blink is not that hard.
and there is no item for that low cost that effects sb the same way.
also as posted above most of the new items added to the game dont even help him SE & ES.
I think he doesn't even need greater bash to function. If you look at most Dota heros sb is unique not because he's an rnjesus but because he's a hero with a full 5second chain stun potential on a global range. As long as that aspect is true the hero is well designed. Nobody has this level of global control at level six without any farm, that's what makes the hero.
You want to prep the bash by abusing pseudo random by charging it on creeps. 5,6 hits without bash pretty much guarantee you get a bash during your two auto attacks in your combo. That being said isn't PA or void even more reliant on rng...?
The issue is not the design, I think this hero is in good shape. It has a purpose and place, strategy wise.
RNG is the main problem not specific to this hero, but overall it is a very very bad approach in a competitive game. There can be light rng which slightly adds a fun factor to the game, I am with that idea (like spawn locations in SC2 or rune luck in dota etc..). Playing a game and three bashes in a row by SB followed by another bash by ulti is bad design. Also 6 shots without bashes and the enemy escapes is also a bad design. It is neither fun, nor interesting. Just praying for lucky bashes.
It is even worse in PA, 15 mana %60 hp dagger applies -armor and bash on a support rofl.
Meh I don't know. Not every hero needs to scale into infinity and beyond. We don't need to give them all %hp based skills, imo.
SB is fine as it is. Map control, and insane bash actions during teamfights : just charge someone in the back, you'll bash everyone in the way, bkb or not. Balanced.
He is not a right click carry, but he doesn't need to be...
I agree to Murlox. Pudge has massive issues and flesh heap only reduce them a little. SB on the other hand can stunlock a carry with little channel time, deals massive damage to supports and empowering haste is good all game long. He really doesn't have problems with scaling. Add to that that he essentially pierces bkb and has quite the high potential to make plays with. I really don't think the hero has problems right now.
I agree that aghs is mediocre at best, but giving the hero a slight buff will make him really good already, I don't think we need a broken aghs like nyx' or treant's on him.
the sb agh was added before icefrog had the great idea that agh isn't just a boost to ultimate but to some other spells.
I believe the first ever agh to affect a spell that's not ultimate is undying (?) and now we're seeing it on nyx and sandking and what not, all interesting changes.
I think agh on spirit breaker should just be make charge a charge-based spell, so you can have up to 2 - 3 consecutive charges with the cooldown being 10 second per charge. That'll be really cool to run rampage around the fight all the time xD. That or reduce the cooldown further, to say... 5 seconds? That would be insanity
On December 09 2016 05:05 evanthebouncy! wrote: I believe the first ever agh to affect a spell that's not ultimate is undying (?) and now we're seeing it on nyx and sandking and what not, all interesting changes.
Doesn't ogre aghs affects his ultimate though? And yeah ok, you get a bonus skill, aight.
I like that idea for SB, I don't think anyone can say his aghs is good at the moment... the reduced CD is nice of course, but not clockwerk or VS level of nice. The AOE is nice on paper too, but it's way too situational to be effective in game.
I think having charges on his charge would make him way too OP though. Like you wait till you have 3, and you destroy the next teamfight, mehhhh. That said, I can't think of a proper change myself. Remove his ult range limit, ult from fountain? Huehuehue...
could imagine something like greater bash becomes aoe in general.
I kinda like the idea that charge gets two charges. Strong enough to buy over AS, still situational enough not to be totally op. It'd be really strong in pro matches though.
On December 09 2016 17:16 Murlox wrote: Doesn't ogre aghs affects his ultimate though? And yeah ok, you get a bonus skill, aight.
nope, in fact you get unrefined fireblast even if you havent skilled multicast at all. so i think that's good evidence that ogre aghs doesnt have anything to do with his ult.
On December 09 2016 17:16 Murlox wrote: Doesn't ogre aghs affects his ultimate though? And yeah ok, you get a bonus skill, aight.
nope, in fact you get unrefined fireblast even if you havent skilled multicast at all. so i think that's good evidence that ogre aghs doesnt have anything to do with his ult.
Hmm yeah ok, it's like that now. I think it used to be different in the past, in that aghs would modify fireblast and ignite multi-cast chance. Or it was only in HoN, don't know.
Ok first off you start often with iron talon and pull x2 tango mid and off then get instant lvl 2 by iron talon a camp and die.
(next patch this wont be viable thou but for now)
second you buy phase instead of PT, third you go sange instead of sb or bkb.
Sure halberd is great to get but its not that impactful.
urn is not bad on him that choice is alright also you did the same mistake most players do its maxing the charge instead of going 1 - 1 - 1 then maxing greater bash. the amount of duration of stun on your charge is very lackluster.
Also i guess you where on the lane 24/7?
Strenght of SB is that you dont wanna show yourself when you show yourself on map they know what they can do.
For instance getting lvl 2 expecting gank on the mid sit and wait and provide a save on your mid and countergank.
you dont wanna charge around on heroes 24/7 trying to get kills often as SB he is more of a backfire countergank hero until he reaches lvl 6.
Ok first off you start often with iron talon and pull x2 tango mid and off then get instant lvl 2 by iron talon a camp and die. (next patch this wont be viable thou but for now) - Pretty cool idea yeah but next patch T_T
second you buy phase instead of PT, third you go sange instead of sb or bkb. - Phase is legit on this guy, and I stand by that judgement, we can argue in length about it but phase is just too good
Sure halberd is great to get but its not that impactful. - I was pretty confused too, this game they have a drow lineup and I thought the best way is to medigate some damage with halbred, their TA was 2 shotting us and she didn't go bkb
urn is not bad on him that choice is alright also you did the same mistake most players do its maxing the charge instead of going 1 - 1 - 1 then maxing greater bash. the amount of duration of stun on your charge is very lackluster. - I thnik when I play roaming support the maxing charge is good for ganks, but I guess here charging through more ppl with more level on bash giving more over-all stun is a great idea. I should consider that next time, especially they're running 5 man and the bonus speed on charge isn't that useful since ur not ganking anyways...
Also i guess you where on the lane 24/7? - no.
Strenght of SB is that you dont wanna show yourself when you show yourself on map they know what they can do. - I know this.
For instance getting lvl 2 expecting gank on the mid sit and wait and provide a save on your mid and countergank. - I thnik since I didn't know the iron talon trick to get lvl 2 I showed more than I wanted to since I needed my lvl 2, I thnik this is a great point and I would do that more often from now on
you dont wanna charge around on heroes 24/7 trying to get kills often as SB he is more of a backfire countergank hero until he reaches lvl 6. - This is also a very good point, I played a lot of games wasting time to get a good charge set-up to gank, but I thnik a better way might just be iron talon jungling and wait to counter-initiate. I could also see the usefulness of maxing bash in this scenario as you're playing more greedy and you can go power-tread and try to gank more. The original philosophy on phase is it let you initiate and run out, but if you're counter-initiate attack speed is useful to get more bash in since you're relatively more safe doing counter-initiate than charging in first
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/f/f6/Spirit_Breaker_Large.png)
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