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Still to this day i dont understand why icefrog never did an complete overhaul on SB, he changed him a bit i get that but 1 his ultimate is so horrible especially scale wise for instance if you look at him, he is sort of like a pudge but works diffrent way, the diffrence here is pudge has flesh heap.
One thing to solve this would simply be make his ultimate scale with str values. thats is one way to do it, second his aghanim is so godamn awful its one of the worst, against good teams its not very often its worth running away then back in again. or for that matter.
Aghanim needs a rework that is for sure. second i would like to se his greater bash changed so when it proccs he gains movement speed instead add it so he is immune to all snare and slow éffects for 0.5/1/1.5/2 seconds and if you have a slow effect on you it dispells it also.
this would make him being the dip in dip out kind of guy.
i also feel sure he is good at lets hit the carry keep him stunned and out of the way, the problem i have here we already have other heroes that stun on hit, sure SB can stunlock and it lasts longer but the amount of rng here its just pathetic.
and this is even with Pseudo rng invovled.
buff his bash or rework it to somthing more reliable and nerf his ult or change it im fine with that, but the amount of rng of success behind this hero is just laughtable.
Dont get me wrong here, he is still a good hero he is not bad the problem i have the amount of sucess in a game with this hero with so much rng involved is just pathetic.
and tbh aghs on him making him immune to stun and give his charge a charge system so you can charge then charge then charge again. and keep his ult as it is. would be 10 times better.
Number of charges and numbers had to be tweaked sure.
But vs good players this hero is so weak, and easily countered, thats the biggest concern.
So lets sum up his flaws, heavily dependant on opponents picks and your picks one of the most, he is very RNG based especially earlygame.
he scales horribly for being a tank/disruptor he is on the level as axe, problem here is axe is reliable and he is more reliable on getting aoe stuns of gl on that with sb.
Sure you can give the excuse axe needs a blinkdagger, but thats is not a good excuse its bad design. becuse getting that blink is not that hard.
and there is no item for that low cost that effects sb the same way.
also as posted above most of the new items added to the game dont even help him SE & ES.
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You seem to suggest the hero is ill designed.
I think he doesn't even need greater bash to function. If you look at most Dota heros sb is unique not because he's an rnjesus but because he's a hero with a full 5second chain stun potential on a global range. As long as that aspect is true the hero is well designed. Nobody has this level of global control at level six without any farm, that's what makes the hero.
You want to prep the bash by abusing pseudo random by charging it on creeps. 5,6 hits without bash pretty much guarantee you get a bash during your two auto attacks in your combo. That being said isn't PA or void even more reliant on rng...?
That being said I thing agh is crap on him
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The issue is not the design, I think this hero is in good shape. It has a purpose and place, strategy wise.
RNG is the main problem not specific to this hero, but overall it is a very very bad approach in a competitive game.
There can be light rng which slightly adds a fun factor to the game, I am with that idea (like spawn locations in SC2 or rune luck in dota etc..).
Playing a game and three bashes in a row by SB followed by another bash by ulti is bad design. Also 6 shots without bashes and the enemy escapes is also a bad design. It is neither fun, nor interesting. Just praying for lucky bashes.
It is even worse in PA, 15 mana %60 hp dagger applies -armor and bash on a support rofl.
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Meh I don't know. Not every hero needs to scale into infinity and beyond. We don't need to give them all %hp based skills, imo.
SB is fine as it is. Map control, and insane bash actions during teamfights : just charge someone in the back, you'll bash everyone in the way, bkb or not. Balanced.
He is not a right click carry, but he doesn't need to be...
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I agree to Murlox. Pudge has massive issues and flesh heap only reduce them a little.
SB on the other hand can stunlock a carry with little channel time, deals massive damage to supports and empowering haste is good all game long. He really doesn't have problems with scaling. Add to that that he essentially pierces bkb and has quite the high potential to make plays with. I really don't think the hero has problems right now.
I agree that aghs is mediocre at best, but giving the hero a slight buff will make him really good already, I don't think we need a broken aghs like nyx' or treant's on him.
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the sb agh was added before icefrog had the great idea that agh isn't just a boost to ultimate but to some other spells.
I believe the first ever agh to affect a spell that's not ultimate is undying (?) and now we're seeing it on nyx and sandking and what not, all interesting changes.
I think agh on spirit breaker should just be make charge a charge-based spell, so you can have up to 2 - 3 consecutive charges with the cooldown being 10 second per charge. That'll be really cool to run rampage around the fight all the time xD. That or reduce the cooldown further, to say... 5 seconds? That would be insanity
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On December 09 2016 05:05 evanthebouncy! wrote:
I believe the first ever agh to affect a spell that's not ultimate is undying (?) and now we're seeing it on nyx and sandking and what not, all interesting changes.
Pretty sure Ogre pre-dates by a lot.
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Doesn't ogre aghs affects his ultimate though? And yeah ok, you get a bonus skill, aight.
I like that idea for SB, I don't think anyone can say his aghs is good at the moment... the reduced CD is nice of course, but not clockwerk or VS level of nice. The AOE is nice on paper too, but it's way too situational to be effective in game.
I think having charges on his charge would make him way too OP though. Like you wait till you have 3, and you destroy the next teamfight, mehhhh. That said, I can't think of a proper change myself. Remove his ult range limit, ult from fountain? Huehuehue...
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could imagine something like greater bash becomes aoe in general.
I kinda like the idea that charge gets two charges. Strong enough to buy over AS, still situational enough not to be totally op.
It'd be really strong in pro matches though.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 09 2016 17:16 Murlox wrote:
Doesn't ogre aghs affects his ultimate though? And yeah ok, you get a bonus skill, aight.
nope, in fact you get unrefined fireblast even if you havent skilled multicast at all. so i think that's good evidence that ogre aghs doesnt have anything to do with his ult.
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ah yeah i think ogre yeah...
do we know if it's the first ult-unrelated agh buff though? can't quite follow
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oh i have a good idea for agh upgrade that's probably more balanced than using charges... how about:
greater bash reduces charge of darkness cooldown by 1 second
think of the possibilities :D ppl gonna be stacking small camps and charging from the middle of them lul
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On December 09 2016 18:15 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 17:16 Murlox wrote:
Doesn't ogre aghs affects his ultimate though? And yeah ok, you get a bonus skill, aight.
nope, in fact you get unrefined fireblast even if you havent skilled multicast at all. so i think that's good evidence that ogre aghs doesnt have anything to do with his ult.
Hmm yeah ok, it's like that now. I think it used to be different in the past, in that aghs would modify fireblast and ignite multi-cast chance. Or it was only in HoN, don't know.
edit : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Ogre_Magi
Guess not. It must have been a HoN thing then, my bad!
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guess icefrog heard my commands bash increased in next patch at max lvl :D atleast somthing haha
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Ok first off you start often with iron talon and pull x2 tango mid and off then get instant lvl 2 by iron talon a camp and die.
(next patch this wont be viable thou but for now)
second you buy phase instead of PT, third you go sange instead of sb or bkb.
Sure halberd is great to get but its not that impactful.
urn is not bad on him that choice is alright also you did the same mistake most players do its maxing the charge instead of going 1 - 1 - 1 then maxing greater bash. the amount of duration of stun on your charge is very lackluster.
Also i guess you where on the lane 24/7?
Strenght of SB is that you dont wanna show yourself when you show yourself on map they know what they can do.
For instance getting lvl 2 expecting gank on the mid sit and wait and provide a save on your mid and countergank.
you dont wanna charge around on heroes 24/7 trying to get kills often as SB he is more of a backfire countergank hero until he reaches lvl 6.
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Ok first off you start often with iron talon and pull x2 tango mid and off then get instant lvl 2 by iron talon a camp and die.
(next patch this wont be viable thou but for now)
- Pretty cool idea yeah but next patch T_T
second you buy phase instead of PT, third you go sange instead of sb or bkb.
- Phase is legit on this guy, and I stand by that judgement, we can argue in length about it but phase is just too good
Sure halberd is great to get but its not that impactful.
- I was pretty confused too, this game they have a drow lineup and I thought the best way is to medigate some damage with halbred, their TA was 2 shotting us and she didn't go bkb
urn is not bad on him that choice is alright also you did the same mistake most players do its maxing the charge instead of going 1 - 1 - 1 then maxing greater bash. the amount of duration of stun on your charge is very lackluster.
- I thnik when I play roaming support the maxing charge is good for ganks, but I guess here charging through more ppl with more level on bash giving more over-all stun is a great idea. I should consider that next time, especially they're running 5 man and the bonus speed on charge isn't that useful since ur not ganking anyways...
Also i guess you where on the lane 24/7?
- no.
Strenght of SB is that you dont wanna show yourself when you show yourself on map they know what they can do.
- I know this.
For instance getting lvl 2 expecting gank on the mid sit and wait and provide a save on your mid and countergank.
- I thnik since I didn't know the iron talon trick to get lvl 2 I showed more than I wanted to since I needed my lvl 2, I thnik this is a great point and I would do that more often from now on
you dont wanna charge around on heroes 24/7 trying to get kills often as SB he is more of a backfire countergank hero until he reaches lvl 6.
- This is also a very good point, I played a lot of games wasting time to get a good charge set-up to gank, but I thnik a better way might just be iron talon jungling and wait to counter-initiate. I could also see the usefulness of maxing bash in this scenario as you're playing more greedy and you can go power-tread and try to gank more. The original philosophy on phase is it let you initiate and run out, but if you're counter-initiate attack speed is useful to get more bash in since you're relatively more safe doing counter-initiate than charging in first
I guess we'll see how the patch affect things
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EPT
