EPTObviously Naga has more utility in her skillset.
I really have to watch more Arteezy then.
[Hero] Terrorblade - Page 16
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
Obviously Naga has more utility in her skillset. I really have to watch more Arteezy then. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On April 03 2014 23:44 Mataza wrote: TB develops into a tower meatgrinder. Metamorph and manta gives you 4 illusions with really high damage output. It's terrifying. Obviously Naga has more utility in her skillset. I really have to watch more Arteezy then. I'll give you that TB does wreck towers in Metamorphosis way faster than Naga could. And in pubs that's great but I wonder if a TB using Meta to take towers would be exploited in competitive. As in, give up a tower to Meta, take a teamfight, win, take two towers. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On April 03 2014 23:47 hariooo wrote: I'll give you that TB does wreck towers in Metamorphosis way faster than Naga could. And in pubs that's great but I wonder if a TB using Meta to take towers would be exploited in competitive. As in, give up a tower to Meta, take a teamfight, win, take two towers. Uh... Your earlier posts had better criticisms. TB using his illusions to kill towers is a splitpushing tactic or better used just after teamfights. In what they do in teamfights Naga and TB are very different either way TB has very low hp and can be bursted down much more easily than Naga. Naga on the other hand is awful at damaging towers and can mainly kill creep waves when she splitpushes. I get the feeling you want to hear that Naga is better than TB at everything which is as stupid a statement as TB is better than Naga at everything. They do different things and the things that both do they do differently as well. Aside from microing radiance illusions. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On April 03 2014 23:55 Mataza wrote: Uh... Your earlier posts had better criticisms. TB using his illusions to kill towers is a splitpushing tactic or better used just after teamfights. In what they do in teamfights Naga and TB are very different either way TB has very low hp and can be bursted down much more easily than Naga. Naga on the other hand is awful at damaging towers and can mainly kill creep waves when she splitpushes. I get the feeling you want to hear that Naga is better than TB at everything which is as stupid a statement as TB is better than Naga at everything. They do different things and the things that both do they do differently as well. Aside from microing radiance illusions. I get the feeling that you're a little uptight. Relax. TB might be better at some things than Naga I just don't think that's true for Radiance. It's the same reason there's not much reason to run PL Radiance over Naga. The overall game strategy is the same in both cases except Naga is always going to have more options and flexibility in the course of a game. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On April 03 2014 23:20 Mataza wrote: If your aim is to spread radiance aura across the map, then Naga is kind of superior. All I saw is you trying to show weaknesses of TB compared to Naga that are completely unrelated to the fact that Naga is arguably the better radiance bearer. That's why I made that post. | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
If I have money for a Radiance on TB and I go for it, I always find myself wishing I had gone for a Skadi instead, as it gives me much more survivability in fights, despite Radiance allowing me to farm more effectively. I consistently find myself bursted down in fights if I chose to go for Radiance in that game, while the huge pool of HP I get with a Skadi gives me time to cast my ultimate on a desirable target. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
just keep sending your illusions in until they leave your towers alone | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11446 Posts
I get the rationale of doing so with naga because the alternative builds are not so strong early on. Can't say the same for tb. | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On April 04 2014 13:31 DucK- wrote: I still don't understand why people like to rice creeps and farm for 6 slots when you can just man fight early on and win games with an alternative build. The strength of meta lies in early mid game where it is relatively very strong, while late game it has lesser significance. I get the rationale of doing so with naga because the alternative builds are not so strong early on. Can't say the same for tb. Gonna chime in here just to say that in pubs, you generally don't rely on your teammates. So Beesa's radiance rush would be better since you're aiming for the point in time you can just 1v5. But in a coordinated game like a competitive match, you can diversify to early fighting and killing since you're so strong at it, and your team can just help control the other heroes. I'd think that if you draft for lategame with scaling supports, you go radiance. If you plan to bruteforce things down through teamfighting and tower killer, then I'm inclined to favor the early yasha/manta/skadi. But then again, if you have good farm, why not radiance rush and just get all you need in 5 mins post-radiance? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6225 Posts
If you win by 6 slot ricing, your team won that game for you. | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
On April 04 2014 17:07 Belisarius wrote: Except you rely on your teammates to defend your towers 4v5 while you're afk the whole game. Like it or not, dota is a team game and there's no way to play it 1v5. If you win by 6 slot ricing, your team won that game for you. lol, and on tb u can do w/e build according to game and lineups... oddly enough my highest gpm was on a 3 butterflies eblade skadi manta tb in ranked. radiance builds have like a higher mean lower variance for average gpms/success drums manta or w/e most ppl do are prolly lower mean higher variacnce. all in all i think manta first big item on tb is absolutely retarded and u shud go yasha then skadi then manta if ure going down that route it also only takes 3min to get a skadi from the point u get radiance | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
in competitive. just like he did in ti2. and im gonna say that most AMs (pros too), since forever have been rly inefficient with their builds and farming speed pre fury, some are even bad after fury. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4537 Posts
On April 04 2014 18:51 ChunderBoy wrote: lol, and on tb u can do w/e build according to game and lineups... oddly enough my highest gpm was on a 3 butterflies eblade skadi manta tb in ranked. radiance builds have like a higher mean lower variance for average gpms/success drums manta or w/e most ppl do are prolly lower mean higher variacnce. all in all i think manta first big item on tb is absolutely retarded and u shud go yasha then skadi then manta if ure going down that route it also only takes 3min to get a skadi from the point u get radiance Could you explain why you think Yasha -> Skadi -> Manta beats Yasha -> Manta -> Skadi? | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
I also wonder why building a full Skadi before finishing Manta would be good. I feel very weak 5 manning before Manta and it gives your team a lot of push power. Now obviously you don't HAVE to 5 man but it also improves your split push a lot being able to tear down towers with your ridiculous illusions. Now building a full skadi costs more than 2000g more than finishing manta, gives approximately the same ratio of stats per cost, so the real comparison is between the slow effect (and maybe the 200hp/mana) and the extra illusions. To me the extra illusions are really great on the hero for both split pushing and sieging base, as well as the added benefit of dispelling debuffs. So I guess my question is what does Skadi offer that is so preferable to Manta that you wouldn't just finish the Manta. Anyway, my usual build is Midas / PMS -> Treads -> Manta -> Skadi -> Butterfly -> whatever. I have tried going BKB in some situations but basically every time I have hated the item on him (although I can see why it would be good/necessary in some scenarios). I have not tried Radiance but honestly every time I've seen a Radiance TB in a pub I've felt like I would be much more scared if he went for another item. The hero can farm so fast once you finish Manta/Skadi (and quite fast even before that) that I honestly don't feel like Radiance is necessary as a farm booster, and it's really quite mediocre on the hero for anything other than farming (you tend not to stand in the middle of fights unless initiated on [although you can move illusions in] and the +damage does not apply to illusions). While Midas accelerates your big timing with Manta+Skadi and really barely slows down your Manta timing anyway. I'm not biased against Radiance or anything, I'm a HUGE Radiance Naga fan, but I just don't feel the same necessity/synergy with TB since he has a much stronger teamfight presence with just 1-2 big items compared to Naga, and his split push potential without Radiance is still very strong (both of which are not really true about Naga until very late in the game unless you go Radiance). | ||
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
On April 04 2014 22:06 Laurens wrote:Could you explain why you think Yasha -> Skadi -> Manta beats Yasha -> Manta -> Skadi? More Agi, tankiness and a painfully strong slow that you're bound to kill a lot of people during metamorphosis I'd guess. In my experience the early Yasha outside of farming actually allows you to chase up and use the initial Q on a lot of enemy heroes. Correct me if I'm wrong but often you'd not care about leveling Q past level 1 for these builds and people prefer the stats if they're ahead of enemy right-clickers so I think you can't rely on Q all the time to shut someone down. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4537 Posts
On April 05 2014 00:11 Surprise.820 wrote: More Agi, tankiness and a painfully strong slow that you're bound to kill a lot of people during metamorphosis I'd guess. In my experience the early Yasha outside of farming actually allows you to chase up and use the initial Q on a lot of enemy heroes. Correct me if I'm wrong but often you'd not care about leveling Q past level 1 for these builds and people prefer the stats if they're ahead of enemy right-clickers so I think you can't rely on Q all the time to shut someone down. I get why Skadi is good. It's just that you go: 1) Yasha 2) Ultimate orb And then you can either: a) use the next 900 gold and have a completed manta and all its benefits b) farm an additional 3300 gold to complete the Skadi and have those benefits. I would think path a) is the better option here, and I'm just curious why Beesa is so adamant about going Skadi first. | ||
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gaymon
Germany1023 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11446 Posts
I think its more important to understand the rationale and theory behind the build. Radiance is a legit build as you can do mass farm shenanigans similar to a naga. You can also get towers easily if uncontested. If contested, a manta tb cannot really push down the tower anyway. The reasons why I personally do not like radiance builds is mainly 1) you do not have an song. Naga's skill set is much superior for this purpose. Arguably, the safety aspect in song is what makes this build so powerful. Its just so difficult to stop. 2) your skill set makes you a monster man fighting DPS hero early on if you build him that way. If you go for radiance, you essentially keep farming till you are close to full slot late game. I think its a waste not to utilise the strengths of meta early on. Late game its main relevance is just to make you a range hero. +damage is not consequential. Unlike ember where I believe sof chain is way stronger than guard, I think radiance route is strong in its own regard. I think its 2 different styles of play that can be switched around depending on how you want the draft to go. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 05 2014 01:12 gaymon wrote: Its still a miracle to me how beesa can defend the radiance build so valiantly even though the vast majority of people in high rated pubs (TB is not in CM, so this is the only basis) do not go for radiance. Of course you could argue that "in theory" blablaba.... but apparently noone really builds radiance. The fact that noone of the famous "tb abusers" go for radi kinda solidifies the point that in a pub, radiance is usually not the right itemchoice. Maybe his playstyle and skill on TB is on a higher level (no joke). Ive read somewhere in this thread about how someone on TL farms, which is quite different from pubstreamers like dendi's and singsings, much more effective. He put TB in jungle and a illusion to farm the lane. Ofcourse this requires more skill then just farming a lane. He got a radiance in the time i normally get ma boots and a wand if im lucky. If you see your pubstars farming jungle and lane during the laningstage at the same time, then u could be right. But for now, beesa could be right about most statements. That guy even backed up his farmingskills with dotabuff profile(=replays), u can check his builds there. | ||
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