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Lalalaland34486 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/b/b5/Terrorblade_Large.png) Terrorblade
Terrorblade is the demon marauder—an outlaw hellion whom even other demons fear. A cosmic iconoclast, he stole from the Demon Lords, ignored the codified rites that should have bound his behavior, and broke every law of the seven Infernal Regions. For his crimes, he was taught this lesson: even Hell has a hell. A short, brutal trial ensued, with many dead on all sides, and he was finally incarcerated in Foulfell, a hidden dimension where demonkind imprison their own.
But Foulfell is no normal prison. In this dark mirror of reality, demons are sentenced to gaze eternally into the twisted reflection of their own souls. But instead of suffering, Terrorblade made himself master of his own reflected worst self—a raging, thieving demon of unimaginable power. With his inner beast under sway, he destroyed the fractal prison walls and burst free to turn his terror loose upon all creation.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Terrorblade
Discussion will go here once I can be bothered.
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Sunder into dagon 5
Unbeatable
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On January 31 2014 09:40 Darkren wrote:
Sunder into dagon 5
Unbeatable
I like this strat I heard - have rosh bash you into critical range, shadowblade out of rosh, sunder and dagon the poor soul you stumble across.
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On January 31 2014 09:46 Comeh wrote:I like this strat I heard - have rosh bash you into critical range, shadowblade out of rosh, sunder and dagon the poor soul you stumble across.
You can also go for the super efficient refresher build
So the idea is teamfight erupts your ally gets low you sunder him from full hp giving him full hp then refresh and sunder back on a full hp ennemy
Unbeatable
+ Show Spoiler +Bonus point if you can get double dagon 5 off in the battle
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I'm bad and played him for the first time. I really love armor boosting items and a shield and then just man-walk through creeps and towers to gank the fuck out of whoever tries to fight me. It was pretty amazing. As far as actual items, I haven't even tried anything but noob garbage like mek, yasha, and MoM. Very fun though so far.
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Seemed like a typical illusion hero except metamorphosis is pretty disgustingly powerful, stat items seemed strong, especially skadi (and manta, illusion hero). Typical late game bfly/heart (though with skadi he's already tanky)/crit and maybe satanic all seem good. I think if you're spam making illusions leaving sunder til you are 10 might be good, as 1/4/4 lets you maximize your strengths early on (ranged +80 damage illusions and the slow). Late game the slow scales really well with enemy carries.
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it appears to me there are two ways to play this hero. either get radi (rushed or delayed with boots and drums first) and then play like that naga build that recently resurfaced thanks to meracle, which means you splitpush and farm everywhere. or rather go down the drums manta skadi/butter/bkb route and actively participate in fights with absurd damage output. it felt to me that the naga style is actually outclassed by naga (riptide/insane escape allowing to dive into the enemy team, kill someone, tp out etc.) so mostly viable as an option to consider dynamically ingame according to the pace of the game. as for skillbuilds, qeewerewwwruuuuuuu...(ult at 16) seems like a solid build, as more points in refraction really seem to only pay off against few, very specific heroes and obivously tb wants stats like mad. of course, against an am you maybe want to max out refraction after the other skills.
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He's pretty similar to non-Shotgun Morphling, actually, and reasonably easy to itemize for. If it gives stats, or is BKB, it's good (with the caveat that Diffusal isn't that great). As long as he's not behind terribly far, he can make a pretty big impact with Treads plus Drums, Yasha or BKB. You do have to pick your spots and be efficient, though, since the majority of his early-game scariness comes from Metamorphosis. In my head he's basically a combination of Morphling and Sven.
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i don't know what to think about this hero, it seems that he can just manfight a whole team with very little items. I have seen it a couple times already, that he is really underfarmed yet he still completly crushes everyone. Early he can just burst down t1s with his illusions, the range and damage of his illusions even without any items is insane. I played against him in mid once and at some point he just sent his illusions to hit the tower, after doing this 3 or 4 times the tower was gone.
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He feels so strong, fun to play too, though I hope Valve remodels his base model.
His solokill potential is really high surprisingly early for a carry, meta->illu->reflection leads to dead heroes immediately. The fact that reflection has the full duration at lvl 1 is insane, letting you max metamorph and conjure image first, making you into a pushing beast. If enemies leave your lane when metamorph is up, that's a lost tower.
Still unsure how to build him. PMS->Threads->Yasha feels strong, but the followup I'm more unsure about. Drums are good, Manta is strong, Skadi is strong as well. I'm thinking maybe drums -> BKB if the enemy lineup requires BKB, skadi rush if you're doing well, manta being a middle ground?
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How is radiance on this hero? I haven't tried it yet, but I can imagine it would be very good if you get it at a good time.
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What heroes are a decent counter to terrorblade? (IE aren't ripped apart by him).
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On January 31 2014 19:45 Nevuk wrote:
What heroes are a decent counter to terrorblade? (IE aren't ripped apart by him).
well he isn't very resistant to nukes
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On January 31 2014 17:13 Nomzter wrote:
How is radiance on this hero? I haven't tried it yet, but I can imagine it would be very good if you get it at a good time.
I feel like you just totally don't need the item. He farms so fast anyway, and benefits so much from the first one or two big items, theres no point delaying it.
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On January 31 2014 20:10 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 19:45 Nevuk wrote:
What heroes are a decent counter to terrorblade? (IE aren't ripped apart by him). well he isn't very resistant to nukes
This, and stuns/disables. Stuff like Bane's Fiends Grip is probably amazing since has so low base HP and can't sunder.
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Got a lot of people disagreeing with my statement that he's a ranged Lycan. Fine, how about a Naga that pushes like 3 times as fast? This hero does better in lane and teamfights than most other heroes that would rather be pushing than teamfighting, but that doesn't change the fact that pushing towers is still what he is best at. Why not play a hero to it's strengths?
If you can enter a skirmish or teamfight safely all AoE nukes have been spent then good for you, go for it. If you can find an easy pickoff with Lycan then yeah, go for it. The thing is that the strongest point of your hero is pushing towers. At level 7 when you have your early game core (basi or aquila, brown boots or treads,drums or yasha), and the enemy leaves your lane, you can take two towers in just one minute. Later when you have manta, level 4 illus and level 4 meta you can have 3 instant meta illus that you just send at a tower. 16 sec later you have another meta illusion ready, and when manta is off cd again you'll still be in ranged form so you can create another 3 meta illus. No other hero can push down towers both this fast and this safe.
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This hero such an insane ricer.
Easily same level/better than naga siren with radiance. Difference being you're also insanely strong early game due to metamorphosis and the insane armor you start with, plus the agi gain of 3.2. Buy a PMS and RoB in laning phase and you're unkillable by most heroes.
Personally I think ET is a legit hero vs him. You see like 30 armor + endgame TB's all the time being unkillable and shit. Have an AC up on the team + medallion & ET, GG.
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Finally my 3rd favorite carry is in the game. Used to play him when he still had life drain and you could jungle him.
I suppose the good old mass stats build will still work?
And i suppose maxing meta first and then illusions is the best skill build, getting sunder at 10/11?
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SnY or manta? Thoughts?
So far I've found the radiance build very underwhelming (still strong just compared to other builds radiance doesn't add much)
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Chain stuns work wonders on him. Then again they work wonders on everyone, so that isn't new
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On January 31 2014 22:28 TrainSamurai wrote:
SnY or manta? Thoughts?
So far I've found the radiance build very underwhelming (still strong just compared to other builds radiance doesn't add much)
I've been going SnY without really thinking about why. It seems strong tho.
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I played him yesterday with manta and it seemed pretty sweet too, more illusions with metamorphosis active (I think its still better than melee ones) = faster split push/farming more simultaneously. SnY slow is probably wasted since you'll likely go skadi so its basically a question of if you really want the strength bonus and slight ms buff. I think basically items are just good on terrorblade though, they all work.
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idk why you want skadi on him, such a slow buildup and the parts on its own give rather small bonuses untill you have the whole thing. I had some success with manta bkb and then start gaming. He is ridicilous strong early.
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The skadi arrival seemed to make me feel like I went from strong to "gg". The point booster is probably relatively solid for the build up too (200 hp and 150 mana is useful on a hero with mediocre strength, he has less base strength than drow ranger and ember spirit at all points). Its also incredibly slot efficient (hence its use on many stat-based heroes, core on dusa, situational on PL for example) and the cold attack on a ranged illusion-based hero is really strong. I think slot efficiency early is probably important, by the time you have
treads manta drum aquila/wand/pms tp (bkb)
slot-efficiency is probably important vs cost-efficiency as no item you want next is cost efficient, so skadi is probably one of the better options (butterfly also good). Skadi isn't core like manta but I think its certainly a strong choice after the core.
I don't disagree with his early timings (manta + 1) being strong though - i think the choice you make (split push/farm or fight) at that point being dependent on team makeups rather than the weakness of the hero until late game. Late game he does feel near unbeatable though, but 550 range, 1.6 BAT on a decent farming speed hero with high base armor and good stat growth and a "second life" (from sunder) with illusions that scale with his damage and the enemy carries damage is such a strong skill set relatively few heroes keep up, maybe dusa/void/gyro simply due to the strengths of their ultimates/aoe damage.
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Just kill him in lane. If you lane someone who has no kill potential against TB with magic burst then you deserve hard game hard life for the rest of the game.
Radiance TB can be strong but it's pretty greedy. It means like an extra 10 minutes that you get to burst him down for free.
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I go threads (drums) Manta Skadi butterfly crit/daedalus
U dun nid a lot of dmg early as metamorphosis gives him ridiculous dmg to him and his illusions so just build up stats so strengthen the illusion .
Late game , you are not as beastly as you are in midgame so just build whatever + BKB eg MKB if opponent has evasion or satanic if you wanna survive more
All in all you lose most of the time if your mid game is shit as he is kind of like a gyro where in the mid game is when you truly bloom and slow start to fall off late game so end fast!
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I was doing PMS with a couple tangos at 0:00 into brown boots and a fast mek (a la viper). Then roll into yasha, treads, and drums. At that point, I was a farming and ganking machine. Add a sange to the yasha or go right to manta, fit a BKB in with the farm you should be getting by picking heroes off and jungling, and just man-fight to victory. I would really love to see what he can do with 4 illusions, AC, and a deso. Probably not ideal, but it would be pretty fun to troll people with.
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Some things I've noticed about the hero so far:
Sunder works on illusions. You can do the rest of the thinking here.
Skadi on a ranged illusion carry is absolutely ridiculous. Sick stats + the snow = you can just stick a target and kill.
The SNY + BKB + HOTD build I see a lot of Terrors going is garbage. Terror's stat gain + the metamorphosis base dmg increase just makes illusions so strong on him. Skadi as an orb is also much better than maim. If you're not farming well get an aquila and use illusions.
He's actually an incredibly good laning carry against single offlaners. Reflection gives him and any allies 5 seconds to just whack you. If you have a low armor offlaner, you're fucked.
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1) Don't get Drums on this hero. In fact you can skip Drums on MANY heroes.
2) Always consider BKB on this hero. I have seen so many TB players skipping it. It doesn't matter how hard you hit if you are going to be disabled and burst down. Don't put too much faith in Sunder.
3) Reflection is a 1 point wonder. It has a ridiculous slow, which means an almost certain kill in ganks. You can max it at 23, 24, 25. It's up to you to view how important the CD is. With it's pathetic cast range, you almost hardly use it unless you have setup.
4) Metamorphosis should almost always be maxed first. Only reason not to max it is if you are jungling.
5) It's good to get some HP on him. A casual Ogre Axe into BKB is very useful. Alternatively, you can go for SnY, or casual Bracer/Wraith.
6) Conjure Image can be delayed. Sunder can be delayed or left at level 1. Either of this would favour going Stats heavy instead. Personally because a) TB doesn't need damage items early on, b) I am quite heavy on Stats early on, c) I get HP items + HotD early, I hardly see a need to get Sunder early. It's preference.
7) End game items should be around the likes of Skadi Satanic BoT Butterfly Manta MKB BKB Daedelus. Pretty standard ranged DPS carry stuff.
8) Radiance is quite bad on this hero.
9) Don't bother with Midas.
10) Play style is pretty much farm in lane, and push towers subsequently. Then keep farming.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 01 2014 01:52 DucK- wrote:
1) Don't get Drums on this hero. In fact you can skip Drums on MANY heroes.
2) Always consider BKB on this hero. I have seen so many TB players skipping it. It doesn't matter how hard you hit if you are going to be disabled and burst down. Don't put too much faith in Sunder.
3) Reflection is a 1 point wonder. It has a ridiculous slow, which means an almost certain kill in ganks. You can max it at 23, 24, 25. It's up to you to view how important the CD is. With it's pathetic cast range, you almost hardly use it unless you have setup.
4) Metamorphosis should almost always be maxed first. Only reason not to max it is if you are jungling.
5) It's good to get some HP on him. A casual Ogre Axe into BKB is very useful. Alternatively, you can go for SnY, or casual Bracer/Wraith.
6) Conjure Image can be delayed. Sunder can be delayed or left at level 1. Either of this would favour going Stats heavy instead. Personally because a) TB doesn't need damage items early on, b) I am quite heavy on Stats early on, c) I get HP items + HotD early, I hardly see a need to get Sunder early. It's preference.
7) End game items should be around the likes of Skadi Satanic BoT Butterfly Manta MKB BKB Daedelus. Pretty standard ranged DPS carry stuff.
8) Radiance is quite bad on this hero.
9) Don't bother with Midas.
10) Play style is pretty much farm in lane, and push towers subsequently. Then keep farming.
Gonna agree with all of this but i would also consider ethereal on him mid-lategame too. 40 agility on him converts into ridiculous level of dmg (something close to +100 dmg and 40 IAS with some HP and MP on top of that). And active can easily be a good sunder follow up come lategame.
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I think Manta is the best item for him, the only problem I have with it is that I don't think it's worth rushing it because early game illusions are way too weak and he needs something to help him survive.
Maybe something like SnY/Linkens into Manta could work well for him ? Thoughts ?
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On February 01 2014 01:52 DucK- wrote:
1) Don't get Drums on this hero. In fact you can skip Drums on MANY heroes.
2) Always consider BKB on this hero. I have seen so many TB players skipping it. It doesn't matter how hard you hit if you are going to be disabled and burst down. Don't put too much faith in Sunder.
3) Reflection is a 1 point wonder. It has a ridiculous slow, which means an almost certain kill in ganks. You can max it at 23, 24, 25. It's up to you to view how important the CD is. With it's pathetic cast range, you almost hardly use it unless you have setup.
4) Metamorphosis should almost always be maxed first. Only reason not to max it is if you are jungling.
5) It's good to get some HP on him. A casual Ogre Axe into BKB is very useful. Alternatively, you can go for SnY, or casual Bracer/Wraith.
6) Conjure Image can be delayed. Sunder can be delayed or left at level 1. Either of this would favour going Stats heavy instead. Personally because a) TB doesn't need damage items early on, b) I am quite heavy on Stats early on, c) I get HP items + HotD early, I hardly see a need to get Sunder early. It's preference.
7) End game items should be around the likes of Skadi Satanic BoT Butterfly Manta MKB BKB Daedelus. Pretty standard ranged DPS carry stuff.
8) Radiance is quite bad on this hero.
9) Don't bother with Midas.
10) Play style is pretty much farm in lane, and push towers subsequently. Then keep farming.
Agree with this mostly, TB is pretty damn paper and without metamorphosis he can't do as much things cause he just don't have any sort of lockdown to kill anyone.
SnY gives you good stats + coupled with movespeed it allows you to mow down your opponents with your metamorph illusions thanks to the ridiculous extra damage from metamorph.
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I may be wrong but I was under the impression that S&Y and Skadi stack fully.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 01 2014 04:34 Hagen0 wrote:
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that S&Y and Skadi stack fully.
They do. But it can be overkillish.
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Yeah, I don't think I'd get both. But S and Y is actually pretty good on him, and it comes online much faster than Skadi. More and more I feel like his real power in this iteration is the damage from Conjure Image + Metamorphosis in the midgame and not his strength as a lategame carry, so that's how I'd itemize him. PMS+Treads into one of Yasha, Drums or BKB, depending on what seems to fit your game best, then group and force fights with Meta. When Meta's down, back off and farm until it's back up.
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While Skadi is a great item on him (one of the best in fact), it is a rubbish item to be rushing for on any hero. Think of it as an luxury extension, and don't build the hero around it.
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I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate
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On February 01 2014 13:15 DucK- wrote:
While Skadi is a great item on him (one of the best in fact), it is a rubbish item to be rushing for on any hero. Think of it as an luxury extension, and don't build the hero around it.
nope terrorblade is the exception terrorblade is the only hero where a skadi rush is pretty legit mb squeeze in a yasha but thats it....skadi,manta and bfly...gg
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On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate
Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too.
This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones).
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I find a late game build like travel boots~manta~mkb~daed to be an unstoppable wall of terror. Could always throw in a diffusal somewhere in that to watch other players run in horror while they explode instantly.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 01 2014 16:59 Baarn wrote:
I find a late game build like travel boots~manta~mkb~daed to be an unstoppable wall of terror. Could always throw in a diffusal somewhere in that to watch other players run in horror while they explode instantly.
mkb is highly situational on terrorblade (and any other carry that has good dmg by himself). In fact, e-blade will give you more DPS than mkb even with just conjure images, let alone manta. IMO the dream build on him is mass mass stats like: skadi-manta-bot-bfly-ethereal-something (bkb/satanic/hot/buriza/mkb if enemy team bought 3+ halberds/butterflies).
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This guy is confusing to play against. The Terrorblade in the last game went manta first and any teamfight would have 5 terrorblades -_-
Haven't seen any big sunders yet. In fact I completely forgot about the skill until someone on the other team pointed out "LOL he used sunder on weaver".
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On February 01 2014 20:27 Laurens wrote:
This guy is confusing to play against. The Terrorblade in the last game went manta first and any teamfight would have 5 terrorblades -_-
Haven't seen any big sunders yet. In fact I completely forgot about the skill until someone on the other team pointed out "LOL he used sunder on weaver".
Sunder has longer range than Duel. Work from there to catch some greedy bastards.
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Radiance on TB is the same idea as Radiance on Naga or PL. PL is a better pure split-pusher and Naga has better teamfight flexibility, but TB can just man-mode at any time, and the pure amount of damage Radiance gets you is crazy, not to mention the obvious farm benefits. It's a legitimate item on any natural illusion carry.
I've seen lots of pros streaming TB get Radiance. Saying it's "quite bad" with no support is a pretty weak statement.
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On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones).
Agreed, he's really really powerful after his first item, but I disagree that he isn't one of the hardest carries despite that.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 02 2014 02:49 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). Agreed, he's really really powerful after his first item, but I disagree that he isn't one of the hardest carries despite that.
He is one of the hardest carries though, it is undeniable.
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tb is so fucking strong at lvl 6 TT
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Sunder in ridiculous, any other hero I would have to change my pants in some situations and here I grab multi kills. Of course I just played one game with him, but my impression was just "stupidly strong".
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 02 2014 05:44 McRatyn wrote:
Sunder in ridiculous, any other hero I would have to change my pants in some situations and here I grab multi kills. Of course I just played one game with him, but my impression was just "stupidly strong".
Thats okay, if you can kite him long enough. Or pick necrolyte.
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On February 02 2014 05:46 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 05:44 McRatyn wrote:
Sunder in ridiculous, any other hero I would have to change my pants in some situations and here I grab multi kills. Of course I just played one game with him, but my impression was just "stupidly strong". Thats okay, if you can kite him long enough. Or pick necrolyte.
You're probably right but that's where Reflection + Metamorphosis range come into play so it's not that easy to kite. And E lasts for 52 sec at lvl 4 which is a long time. Not sure how necro would work against him though.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 02 2014 05:59 McRatyn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 05:46 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 02 2014 05:44 McRatyn wrote:
Sunder in ridiculous, any other hero I would have to change my pants in some situations and here I grab multi kills. Of course I just played one game with him, but my impression was just "stupidly strong". Thats okay, if you can kite him long enough. Or pick necrolyte. You're probably right but that's where Reflection + Metamorphosis range come into play so it's not that easy to kite. And E lasts for 52 sec at lvl 4 which is a long time. Not sure how necro would work against him though.
reflection is 275 range too. Metamorph with some slow (skadi-sny) will come into play, but then necrolyte.
Why necrolyte? Because heartstopper aura and reaper's scythe. TB cannot afford to sunder at low HP against necro, because he will die before possibility to sunder, if he tries to.
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On February 02 2014 03:16 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 02:49 Zealos wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). Agreed, he's really really powerful after his first item, but I disagree that he isn't one of the hardest carries despite that. He is one of the hardest carries though, it is undeniable.
Yes. Thats what I said? o.O
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 02 2014 06:50 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 03:16 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 02 2014 02:49 Zealos wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). Agreed, he's really really powerful after his first item, but I disagree that he isn't one of the hardest carries despite that. He is one of the hardest carries though, it is undeniable. Yes. Thats what I said? o.O
You implied i was disagreeing with you, while i never did.
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On February 02 2014 06:07 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 05:59 McRatyn wrote:On February 02 2014 05:46 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 02 2014 05:44 McRatyn wrote:
Sunder in ridiculous, any other hero I would have to change my pants in some situations and here I grab multi kills. Of course I just played one game with him, but my impression was just "stupidly strong". Thats okay, if you can kite him long enough. Or pick necrolyte. You're probably right but that's where Reflection + Metamorphosis range come into play so it's not that easy to kite. And E lasts for 52 sec at lvl 4 which is a long time. Not sure how necro would work against him though. reflection is 275 range too. Metamorph with some slow (skadi-sny) will come into play, but then necrolyte. Why necrolyte? Because heartstopper aura and reaper's scythe. TB cannot afford to sunder at low HP against necro, because he will die before possibility to sunder, if he tries to.
Or you could just buy BKB first and be better than luna in some situations lol, He is easy to burst with magic dmg + stuns.
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I've been whoring lots of games with TB lately... My build is Treads -> Manta -> Skadi -> Heart.
Sometimes I feel like without Meta, I don't hit hard enough. Should I be getting Diffusal instead of Skadi or something?
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On February 02 2014 12:51 trinxified wrote:
I've been whoring lots of games with TB lately... My build is Treads -> Manta -> Skadi -> Heart.
Sometimes I feel like without Meta, I don't hit hard enough. Should I be getting Diffusal instead of Skadi or something?
TB fights when he has meta up. That's the weakness of him, he's subpar without it. I wouldn't recommend diffusal because your ranged illusions won't benefit from it. The key to TB is to farm up items that work well with illusions (manta for more of them, skadi for hp+slow, heart for raw hp), use metamorphosis -> conjure image/manta. Then kill enemy team. Never fight without Meta, farm when it's down.
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Is the reason you get q over meta at lvl 1 because you can't afford to have meta down at lvls 2/3? My first instinct was to get meta first and use it to out-CS safely at lvl 1, then let it cool down in time for lvl 2 meta/one point in illusion.
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Reflection on level 1 can give you kill potential on its own. It is that strong.
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i dont understand why they changed his first skill from dota. This just makes him way stronger than he already was. One of his weaknesses was no Slow. Now he has that.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 03 2014 03:47 weikor wrote:
i dont understand why they changed his first skill from dota. This just makes him way stronger than he already was. One of his weaknesses was no Slow. Now he has that.
He had his first skill in WC3 dota too. At least in 6.78-6.79. And his real weakness is being paper early game without ANY kind of real escape.
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On February 03 2014 03:47 weikor wrote:
i dont understand why they changed his first skill from dota. This just makes him way stronger than he already was. One of his weaknesses was no Slow. Now he has that.
I assume youre talking about life drain? It was a fairly useless skill . Noobs would use it for jungling, which was awful, and towards the end of its life most people would skip it entirely and get stats. It was strong when maxed at level 7 but if then he was basically a melee creep with mana drain. Icey wants people to get skills instead of stats so he changed it.
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Propably the best radiance holder in the game in mid-game phase. Honestly hes early is freaking strong at lvl 2 you just need 1 stun vs any one to get a kill. I love the fact that compared to most mele carries in the game he is not to be easly buillied out of the lane. Generally good flexible hero that can fit in many drafts and many teams.
As for items dont go diffusal on him its way too weak for terror. Compared to heroes like PL or Naga you wont be conjuring as many illus as them which means you wont be mana burning. Also diffusal sucks for farming and if you wanna fight early just BKB into SnY and if wanna farm just radiance into manta=>bots=>skadi
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JESUS CUP CAKES WOULD NOOBS PLEASE STOP PICKING THIS HERO!
Every game I have played with a TB in team they friggen fail. Easiest hero in games but attracts complete retard pickers...
User was warned for this post
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I don't see how anyone can be terrible with TB lol
Get manta, push a lane -> pop meta, conjure image, pop manta -> a-move to victory
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On February 03 2014 02:22 Orome wrote:
Is the reason you get q over meta at lvl 1 because you can't afford to have meta down at lvls 2/3? My first instinct was to get meta first and use it to out-CS safely at lvl 1, then let it cool down in time for lvl 2 meta/one point in illusion.
Depends on the lane. I usually save the first use of Meta for a kill. Sometimes you can get free kills with Reflection if people don't respect your space as a weak laner. If you ever get a gank it's 100% a kill.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
I miss TB with lifedrain ):
He was such qt :D
Q at lvl 1 is very decent especially if you have aggressive support like Skywrath Mage and going ham on enemy carry.
After getting flasks if not kills, you can safely get 2 more levels, get 2 points in metamorphosis and smash.
For the builds, threads-linken-diffusals-manta is decent, if there are too much cc, get bkb instead of linkens.
You can safely pick up bkb first before diffusals and manta because of damage from metamorphosis and you already have splitpush ability with conjure image.
For really late game, i guess butterfly and crits are decent, or you can always opt for skadi and other stuff.
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Thoughts on HoT? His illusions fall so quickly to aoe magic, Puck being one example...
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On February 04 2014 02:56 Rybka wrote:
Thoughts on HoT? His illusions fall so quickly to aoe magic, Puck being one example...
Only as luxury, you're not PL to be totally dependant on illusions.
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Played my first game of terrorblade yesterday.
His meta gives him much more flexibility then other illusion heroes
Reflection is REALLY good. In the game I played, I levelled it up to 4 asap as once you get yasha, killing people is easy as
You should always come to the first teamfight, provided you've hit lvl 6. Sunder is just that good
I went treads into yasha into sange/yasha into manta/halberd. Also got a causal planeswalkers cloak, for my illusions.
Sunder is amazing at lvl 3
Once you hit lvl 5-7 your basic illusions can easily farm weaker camps. Especially with items
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I watched iceiceice play TB offlane every game and decided to try it out. Hilarious results because everybody underestimates your kill potential. With certain lane partners you can get a kill level 1 because 5 seconds of slow are no joke. Alone you can kill most supports and certain carries at level 2 with slow+right clicks in demon form.
Obviously you want squishy carries with no escape against you in their safelane. Low range or melee even better. Obviously don't go against magic nukers, someone like Alch is no problem though.
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Why would anyone get Heart over Satanic
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On February 04 2014 02:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I miss TB with lifedrain ):
He was such qt :D
Q at lvl 1 is very decent especially if you have aggressive support like Skywrath Mage and going ham on enemy carry.
After getting flasks if not kills, you can safely get 2 more levels, get 2 points in metamorphosis and smash.
For the builds, threads-linken-diffusals-manta is decent, if there are too much cc, get bkb instead of linkens.
You can safely pick up bkb first before diffusals and manta because of damage from metamorphosis and you already have splitpush ability with conjure image.
For really late game, i guess butterfly and crits are decent, or you can always opt for skadi and other stuff.
I missed Life Drain too. I used to go solo mid with Life Drain + Stats :D
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i honestly don't know how to deal with this hero, you crush him in lane kill him a million times yet he still is powerful and just eats your towers faster than a 6slot lycan can.
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On February 04 2014 17:53 idonthinksobro wrote:
i honestly don't know how to deal with this hero, you crush him in lane kill him a million times yet he still is powerful and just eats your towers faster than a 6slot lycan can.
It depends on what item build TB goes for. A lot of pub TB skip BKB. As a Mirana player (usually offlane) for 80+ games straight, I often build Orchid to deal with him. Most players overly rely on Sunder to survive ganks.
TB is a very strong hero, but he is very reliant on how smartly the user builds him. If you see stuff like Drums/Midas/Heart, you can start rejoicing.
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while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great
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my build is get ring of +2 armor to basilus, get level 1 slow max metamorph then conjure sunder whenever
u can get aquila if laning is hard but leave it to basi if not, can kill at level 1-3 with your super slow and metamorph with a help of a a disabler. OOV early is good if there is kill potential
rush yasha push lanes, he can really push fast.
get full SnY or get crystalis = oh so good or if things are easy crystalis then SnY - just some core stuff, u can get bkb if they are stun heavy ( i dont know about linkens)
u can choose to disasemble SnY to manta or just get scadi (depends) finish daedalus 1st or after scadi for super slow.
SnY is really the cheap killing item for him and crits
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Heart is good if you play Tb as an illusion based split pusher. I sometimes fall back on that when getting owned in team fights.
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I always go Aquila, 13 armor at 3 mins is super nice ^.^
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 05 2014 02:10 Zealos wrote:
I always go Aquila, 13 armor at 3 mins is super nice ^.^
Aquilla is meh. Armor really kicks in later, when you have HP to make use of it. At 3 mins after all nukes of all sorts shine, not right clicks.
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On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great
Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith.
Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK.
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Aquila is nice for the mana regen and damage regardless
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 05 2014 03:48 Hagen0 wrote:
Aquila is nice for the mana regen and damage regardless
mana regen concern is more legit, dmg is not worth the money (seriously, 2 wraith bands will give you more in HP, 1,5 less armor, same dmg and slightly less mana regen at the cost of more mana in pool).
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Do you really need mana regeneration on TB? I hadn't had problems at least in one game.
And with basic 7 armor there is no need in basilius as well, it's ridiculous to have 7 armor in 1st level.
Easier to get pms if you need damage, that's way more profit.
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On February 05 2014 06:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Do you really need mana regeneration on TB? I hadn't had problems at least in one game.
And with basic 7 armor there is no need in basilius as well, it's ridiculous to have 7 armor in 1st level.
Easier to get pms if you need damage, that's way more profit.
Didn't have problems with mana either, but I was pretty confused as to what I should buy so I went for the proposed item build. I liked it, wasn't that bad at all.
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On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK.
what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf
Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges).
And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries.
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On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries.
I'm referring to the damage nerf from +9 to +3.
On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf
Stats wise its extremely cost inefficient. Getting 2 of Wraith/Bracer/Null will grant you comparable stats at half the price. Considering that majority of players getting Drums think that it gives good value for stats, it shows how overrated this is.
You are essentially paying 850 gold just for the Aura/Charges. Even then, the AS can be eliminated because realistically how important is 5 AS? It is laughable. To put it in perspective, according to playdota mechanics it's 0.03 attacks more per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (majority of heroes). Do you even bother using a charge for an additional 0.06 attacks per second?
The only useful component for the Aura/Charges is the MS. The Aura gives ~17 MS. How important is this? If you are going Treads, you are still slower than any Phase Boots hero. MS is mainly important to melee heroes. They need superior movement speed to ensure they can constantly hit their targets. For ranged heroes? 17 MS isn't going to help you hit anything better. It may help you kite melee heroes a bit better, but it wouldn't help much if you went for Treads vs their Phase.
I accept that Drums have some usefulness in the form of MS boost. But that should be the only reason you decide to make Drums. And even if you do want to have additional MS, please evaluate whether the hero even needs it desperately in the first place.
[Edit]
After reading, can anyone tell me logically why the hell would you build Drums on a Meracle/RTZ Naga build.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 06 2014 03:50 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. I'm referring to the damage nerf from +9 to +3.
Was not question to you but IIRC there was a cost nerf too.
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Is PMS good on this hero? does it work when he's in ranged form?
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On February 06 2014 19:01 rob.au wrote:
Is PMS good on this hero? does it work when he's in ranged form?
I'd say PMS is more or less a must have. I guess it changes between ranged/melee, but I feel you need it regardless in the laning phase where you won't be in ranged form usually. Terrorblade is just so harassable early on because of his low health.
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On February 06 2014 19:01 rob.au wrote:
Is PMS good on this hero? does it work when he's in ranged form?
He has high armour and base regen. Its OK to leave it as a stout. Not really necessary to upgrade it unless you really need the extra block.
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His base damage is surprisingly low, it helps with last hitting a lot I like it
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On February 06 2014 03:50 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. I'm referring to the damage nerf from +9 to +3. Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Stats wise its extremely cost inefficient. Getting 2 of Wraith/Bracer/Null will grant you comparable stats at half the price. Considering that majority of players getting Drums think that it gives good value for stats, it shows how overrated this is. You are essentially paying 850 gold just for the Aura/Charges. Even then, the AS can be eliminated because realistically how important is 5 AS? It is laughable. To put it in perspective, according to playdota mechanics it's 0.03 attacks more per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (majority of heroes). Do you even bother using a charge for an additional 0.06 attacks per second? The only useful component for the Aura/Charges is the MS. The Aura gives ~17 MS. How important is this? If you are going Treads, you are still slower than any Phase Boots hero. MS is mainly important to melee heroes. They need superior movement speed to ensure they can constantly hit their targets. For ranged heroes? 17 MS isn't going to help you hit anything better. It may help you kite melee heroes a bit better, but it wouldn't help much if you went for Treads vs their Phase. I accept that Drums have some usefulness in the form of MS boost. But that should be the only reason you decide to make Drums. And even if you do want to have additional MS, please evaluate whether the hero even needs it desperately in the first place. [Edit] After reading, can anyone tell me logically why the hell would you build Drums on a Meracle/RTZ Naga build.
The Naga drums is so that you have a larger mana pool to work with. +9 Int means one or two extra riptides per bottlecrow (you drop drums when bottling). It's also really useful when you need to escape.
While I have bought drums in most Terrorblade games, I've found that I mainly do it for the early game stats more than anything else. Drums is just easier to build than pretty much any other item on him. With that said, a casual bracer and maybe even a soul ring for mana regen might be more useful.
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On February 07 2014 00:34 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 03:50 DucK- wrote:On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. I'm referring to the damage nerf from +9 to +3. On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Stats wise its extremely cost inefficient. Getting 2 of Wraith/Bracer/Null will grant you comparable stats at half the price. Considering that majority of players getting Drums think that it gives good value for stats, it shows how overrated this is. You are essentially paying 850 gold just for the Aura/Charges. Even then, the AS can be eliminated because realistically how important is 5 AS? It is laughable. To put it in perspective, according to playdota mechanics it's 0.03 attacks more per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (majority of heroes). Do you even bother using a charge for an additional 0.06 attacks per second? The only useful component for the Aura/Charges is the MS. The Aura gives ~17 MS. How important is this? If you are going Treads, you are still slower than any Phase Boots hero. MS is mainly important to melee heroes. They need superior movement speed to ensure they can constantly hit their targets. For ranged heroes? 17 MS isn't going to help you hit anything better. It may help you kite melee heroes a bit better, but it wouldn't help much if you went for Treads vs their Phase. I accept that Drums have some usefulness in the form of MS boost. But that should be the only reason you decide to make Drums. And even if you do want to have additional MS, please evaluate whether the hero even needs it desperately in the first place. [Edit] After reading, can anyone tell me logically why the hell would you build Drums on a Meracle/RTZ Naga build. The Naga drums is so that you have a larger mana pool to work with. +9 Int means one or two extra riptides per bottlecrow (you drop drums when bottling). It's also really useful when you need to escape. While I have bought drums in most Terrorblade games, I've found that I mainly do it for the early game stats more than anything else. Drums is just easier to build than pretty much any other item on him. With that said, a casual bracer and maybe even a soul ring for mana regen might be more useful.
And you can get comparable stats with just null and bracer for about half the cost. You lose out in 3 Agi, but is 3 Agi even important at that stage? You don't even end up with less damage on the main hero.
As I said I accept MS is a useful component in Drums. But do you even need that on Naga when most of the time you just sleep TP to escape? So you are paying ~900 more just so that you can situationally have +60 MS to escape?
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On February 07 2014 00:49 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 00:34 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:On February 06 2014 03:50 DucK- wrote:On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. I'm referring to the damage nerf from +9 to +3. On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Stats wise its extremely cost inefficient. Getting 2 of Wraith/Bracer/Null will grant you comparable stats at half the price. Considering that majority of players getting Drums think that it gives good value for stats, it shows how overrated this is. You are essentially paying 850 gold just for the Aura/Charges. Even then, the AS can be eliminated because realistically how important is 5 AS? It is laughable. To put it in perspective, according to playdota mechanics it's 0.03 attacks more per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (majority of heroes). Do you even bother using a charge for an additional 0.06 attacks per second? The only useful component for the Aura/Charges is the MS. The Aura gives ~17 MS. How important is this? If you are going Treads, you are still slower than any Phase Boots hero. MS is mainly important to melee heroes. They need superior movement speed to ensure they can constantly hit their targets. For ranged heroes? 17 MS isn't going to help you hit anything better. It may help you kite melee heroes a bit better, but it wouldn't help much if you went for Treads vs their Phase. I accept that Drums have some usefulness in the form of MS boost. But that should be the only reason you decide to make Drums. And even if you do want to have additional MS, please evaluate whether the hero even needs it desperately in the first place. [Edit] After reading, can anyone tell me logically why the hell would you build Drums on a Meracle/RTZ Naga build. The Naga drums is so that you have a larger mana pool to work with. +9 Int means one or two extra riptides per bottlecrow (you drop drums when bottling). It's also really useful when you need to escape. While I have bought drums in most Terrorblade games, I've found that I mainly do it for the early game stats more than anything else. Drums is just easier to build than pretty much any other item on him. With that said, a casual bracer and maybe even a soul ring for mana regen might be more useful. And you can get comparable stats with just null and bracer for about half the cost. You lose out in 3 Agi, but is 3 Agi even important at that stage? You don't even end up with less damage on the main hero. As I said I accept MS is a useful component in Drums. But do you even need that on Naga when most of the time you just sleep TP to escape? So you are paying ~900 more just so that you can situationally have +60 MS to escape?
Well the other thing about drums is that they only take up one item slot, and on a fast farming hero such as Naga or TB, slot efficiency quickly becomes more useful than stats efficiency. You will have to get rid of either your bracer or null by 25 mins, which lessens the stats efficiency they give. Moreover, both the drums stats and auras apply to your illusions, making it useful not only for escapes but teamfights. A 10% AS boost to all of your illusions is no joke, especially on TB. The ~900 extra gold you're paying thus becomes more of a long term investment than something like a wraith/bracer build.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 07 2014 06:22 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 00:49 DucK- wrote:On February 07 2014 00:34 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:On February 06 2014 03:50 DucK- wrote:On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. I'm referring to the damage nerf from +9 to +3. On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Stats wise its extremely cost inefficient. Getting 2 of Wraith/Bracer/Null will grant you comparable stats at half the price. Considering that majority of players getting Drums think that it gives good value for stats, it shows how overrated this is. You are essentially paying 850 gold just for the Aura/Charges. Even then, the AS can be eliminated because realistically how important is 5 AS? It is laughable. To put it in perspective, according to playdota mechanics it's 0.03 attacks more per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (majority of heroes). Do you even bother using a charge for an additional 0.06 attacks per second? The only useful component for the Aura/Charges is the MS. The Aura gives ~17 MS. How important is this? If you are going Treads, you are still slower than any Phase Boots hero. MS is mainly important to melee heroes. They need superior movement speed to ensure they can constantly hit their targets. For ranged heroes? 17 MS isn't going to help you hit anything better. It may help you kite melee heroes a bit better, but it wouldn't help much if you went for Treads vs their Phase. I accept that Drums have some usefulness in the form of MS boost. But that should be the only reason you decide to make Drums. And even if you do want to have additional MS, please evaluate whether the hero even needs it desperately in the first place. [Edit] After reading, can anyone tell me logically why the hell would you build Drums on a Meracle/RTZ Naga build. The Naga drums is so that you have a larger mana pool to work with. +9 Int means one or two extra riptides per bottlecrow (you drop drums when bottling). It's also really useful when you need to escape. While I have bought drums in most Terrorblade games, I've found that I mainly do it for the early game stats more than anything else. Drums is just easier to build than pretty much any other item on him. With that said, a casual bracer and maybe even a soul ring for mana regen might be more useful. And you can get comparable stats with just null and bracer for about half the cost. You lose out in 3 Agi, but is 3 Agi even important at that stage? You don't even end up with less damage on the main hero. As I said I accept MS is a useful component in Drums. But do you even need that on Naga when most of the time you just sleep TP to escape? So you are paying ~900 more just so that you can situationally have +60 MS to escape? Well the other thing about drums is that they only take up one item slot, and on a fast farming hero such as Naga or TB, slot efficiency quickly becomes more useful than stats efficiency. You will have to get rid of either your bracer or null by 25 mins, which lessens the stats efficiency they give. Moreover, both the drums stats and auras apply to your illusions, making it useful not only for escapes but teamfights. A 10% AS boost to all of your illusions is no joke, especially on TB. The ~900 extra gold you're paying thus becomes more of a long term investment than something like a wraith/bracer build.
By the time 10% AS boost becomes a good on illusions (+ i am fairly certain that illusions only get aura + agility AS so it is 14 IAS) you have manta-skadi-some agility item (eblade/butterfly) and then why would you delay this by this 900 gold? Both TB and Naga benefit more from items that actually build into their future cores/luxuries like casual vit booster/point booster.
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On February 07 2014 06:22 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 00:49 DucK- wrote:On February 07 2014 00:34 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:On February 06 2014 03:50 DucK- wrote:On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. I'm referring to the damage nerf from +9 to +3. On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Stats wise its extremely cost inefficient. Getting 2 of Wraith/Bracer/Null will grant you comparable stats at half the price. Considering that majority of players getting Drums think that it gives good value for stats, it shows how overrated this is. You are essentially paying 850 gold just for the Aura/Charges. Even then, the AS can be eliminated because realistically how important is 5 AS? It is laughable. To put it in perspective, according to playdota mechanics it's 0.03 attacks more per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (majority of heroes). Do you even bother using a charge for an additional 0.06 attacks per second? The only useful component for the Aura/Charges is the MS. The Aura gives ~17 MS. How important is this? If you are going Treads, you are still slower than any Phase Boots hero. MS is mainly important to melee heroes. They need superior movement speed to ensure they can constantly hit their targets. For ranged heroes? 17 MS isn't going to help you hit anything better. It may help you kite melee heroes a bit better, but it wouldn't help much if you went for Treads vs their Phase. I accept that Drums have some usefulness in the form of MS boost. But that should be the only reason you decide to make Drums. And even if you do want to have additional MS, please evaluate whether the hero even needs it desperately in the first place. [Edit] After reading, can anyone tell me logically why the hell would you build Drums on a Meracle/RTZ Naga build. The Naga drums is so that you have a larger mana pool to work with. +9 Int means one or two extra riptides per bottlecrow (you drop drums when bottling). It's also really useful when you need to escape. While I have bought drums in most Terrorblade games, I've found that I mainly do it for the early game stats more than anything else. Drums is just easier to build than pretty much any other item on him. With that said, a casual bracer and maybe even a soul ring for mana regen might be more useful. And you can get comparable stats with just null and bracer for about half the cost. You lose out in 3 Agi, but is 3 Agi even important at that stage? You don't even end up with less damage on the main hero. As I said I accept MS is a useful component in Drums. But do you even need that on Naga when most of the time you just sleep TP to escape? So you are paying ~900 more just so that you can situationally have +60 MS to escape? Well the other thing about drums is that they only take up one item slot, and on a fast farming hero such as Naga or TB, slot efficiency quickly becomes more useful than stats efficiency. You will have to get rid of either your bracer or null by 25 mins, which lessens the stats efficiency they give. Moreover, both the drums stats and auras apply to your illusions, making it useful not only for escapes but teamfights. A 10% AS boost to all of your illusions is no joke, especially on TB. The ~900 extra gold you're paying thus becomes more of a long term investment than something like a wraith/bracer build.
Its 5 AS. Its not a percentage. 5 AS is barely noticeable. Even if I am somehow wrong and it is a percentage, the build goes for Radiance first. At level 16 you have approximately base 61 Agility. You need 100 Agi/AS for the percentage to be equivalent. Either way the AS is irrelevant. 0.03 additional attacks per second? How can anyone be concerned about it.
Its a similar case for TB. 5 AS is nothing. It's still slightly more than 0.3 attacks per second. More importantly it doesn't even matter because a lot heroes die if you land a reflection + meta anyway.
First fact everyone needs to accept is that the AS or DPS component of Drums is massively overrated. Don't ever use it as an argument. The numbers don't support you. Let's put it in perspective again. Every 33 hits you can land an additional attack. 33?!?!?!?
Slot efficiency may be a concern, but it doesn't really matter for naga. The main item you are looking for is Radiance. Before it you need bottle boots TP. You could fill the remaining 3 slots with any combination null bracer PMS quelling. You don't even need all of them (in safelane naga do you need a Bottle??). Moreover after your radiance you are going to be selling these items in no time anyway
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On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries.
ultimate orb is probably the worst item of the game cost efficiency wise, I wouldn't do that.
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On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones).
All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 07 2014 10:37 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. ultimate orb is probably the worst item of the game cost efficiency wise, I wouldn't do that.
Hence i don't get it unless i already have something like point booster, perse or yasha. Drums are highly situational for me on someone who can use well everything it provides and i am certain i won't get a freefarm for couple of minutes for something more luxurious.
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On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time.
I think he can also build a farm advantage if you choose to go early or early-ish radiance. In this way he becomes like naga (especially the TI2 naga), compensating for his weakness by out farming the other carry.
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On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time.
I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm).
It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off.
six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D.
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On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D.
I agree with this man. Late game tb is devastating
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TB is downright broken for various reasons. He's too strong in the lane for a carry that scales so well, his midgame is too strong with his ability to destroy towers at Lycan speeds, and he scales ridiculously well even if he is dependent on Meta. You have to suppress him hard, and even then he hardly needs items to actually contribute to the team. You absolutely have to tri-lane against him to prevent him from snowballing, which isn't easy to do considering level 2 TB along with his other 2 supports can easily kill anyone.
If you solo an offlaner like Mirana, Weaver, etc. you're just asking to lose. He has such high base armor that he can just shrug off most of their harass and just continue to farm all day.
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try nuking him once before 30 minutes. hes about as tanky as a paper bag
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 09 2014 07:51 Doomblaze wrote:
try nuking him once before 30 minutes. hes about as tanky as a paper bag
Good TB gets bkb and/or skadi way before 30 minutes.
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Early game though a strong nuker really makes Tb cry. He also isn't that strong a laner. If you have the advantage in the lane (i.e. against a single offlaner) Tb is an amazing bully. However, against a strong dual lane Tb can't do much even with support. Again good nukes and range are the key.
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On February 10 2014 01:01 Hagen0 wrote:
Early game though a strong nuker really makes Tb cry. He also isn't that strong a laner. If you have the advantage in the lane (i.e. against a single offlaner) Tb is an amazing bully. However, against a strong dual lane Tb can't do much even with support. Again good nukes and range are the key.
i disagree even if you kill him a lot he just needs 1 item usually manta or sny is enough to send illusions at the tower. It doesn't matter if you kill him early, even the worst of the worst can farm 1 item and eat towers. Especially because t1 towers don't have backdoor protection they will fall even if you keep the lanes pushed out.
If you have a manta at level 10 or something, go meta send your 3 illusions at the tower the tower will drop 20-25%, without creeps.
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He's really strong against certain lineups that lack massive nuking ability. If he enemy team has a few nukers and devote a little effort into ganking him, he ends up having a very hard time ever getting big enough to be a threat. Most important thing is having nukers and a reliable stun vs him so he doesn't sunder you.
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On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D.
The problem is a truely close late game most of the time if you spend meta on a fight away from their base, win the fight(if you lose the fight obviously you are pretty much done), go to their base, it wears off and they buyback and you are pretty much useless as well unless its a melee carry who lets you reflection on him and go to town on him. Not to mention if opponents have a dual/tri core that can fight at any point and you are a hero who can only fight effectively with your spell up its not hard to see which way the wind is blowing ._. Also medusa's ultimate automatically kills illusions, dont need rapier + split for that.
But ultimately after going 17-1 on TB over past 2-3 days, i find that if opponents are the right composition you probably have to get bkb first/second/third item depending on how hard they counter you... Which is pretty terrible for a illusion hero.
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Once you have radiance, you can farm effectively 2lanes and the jungle without any risk. Thats 1kgpm from min 15. Funny hero.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 10 2014 21:49 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D. The problem is a truely close late game most of the time if you spend meta on a fight away from their base, win the fight(if you lose the fight obviously you are pretty much done), go to their base, it wears off and they buyback and you are pretty much useless as well unless its a melee carry who lets you reflection on him and go to town on him. Not to mention if opponents have a dual/tri core that can fight at any point and you are a hero who can only fight effectively with your spell up its not hard to see which way the wind is blowing ._. Also medusa's ultimate automatically kills illusions, dont need rapier + split for that. But ultimately after going 17-1 on TB over past 2-3 days, i find that if opponents are the right composition you probably have to get bkb first/second/third item depending on how hard they counter you... Which is pretty terrible for a illusion hero.
Illusion hero? TB is only illusion carry if you want to go with that route. He can be straight up melee/ranged single target right clicker with pure damage items and bkb if there is someone to turn his stats against him (dark seer being worst example). His midgame is good enough to afford to buy bkb (let's be honest, bkb is suboptimal on luna too, even ethereal is better if there is no need for bkb, but it is a must because well, you kinda want to do that damage).
Melee carry that can just ignore opposition and go straight for rax/throne since his dps and tankiness (6 slot tb, mind you) allows him to ignore most of cores in lategame while destroying your base at speeds of lycan. Or even better, go farm for buyback and just send you 400+ dps illusions do the job.
Medusa killing illusions means that for some strange reason you decided you are as manly as Leoric and decided to face dusa during her ult (all 5 of you).
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Treads Yasha Skadi then finish Manta around min 25~30 is a solid and safe build. SnY if you are being pressured/want to pressure yourself. Always consider BKB. Early BoT can be strong.
He can also jungle starting at lvl1, ~300gpm rate in the first 10 minutes while stacking ancient camp with a HotD to clear later.
Also, be careful of taking fights without Metamorphosis. He's pretty mediocre without it unless you heavily outfarm the oponent.
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skadi first big item is pretty terrible tho
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On February 11 2014 04:35 Noya wrote:
He can also jungle starting at lvl1, ~300gpm rate in the first 10 minutes
Please explain how you do that. I'd appreciate it.
The path Yasha->Skadi is legit if you have a good start. Meta, the Yasha and your amazing agility gain will provide more than sufficient damage and the Skadi will make you extremely hard to deal with (tanky + ranged slow).
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 11 2014 04:50 Erasme wrote:
skadi first big item is pretty terrible tho
Why though? Skadi is amazing on TB. Gives some DPS, good deal of HP, about as much mana as you will ever need and it's orb is simply amazing with meta. Actually skadi is one of the best items in first item category on most of carries (obvious exceptions being bkb-first-item tier carries and melee illusion carries that like diffusal more), especially on carries with good stat gain.
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On February 11 2014 04:59 Hagen0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:35 Noya wrote:
He can also jungle starting at lvl1, ~300gpm rate in the first 10 minutes Please explain how you to that. I'd appreciate it.
QB+Stout Shield, you can ask some tangos for insurance but it's not needed, start with either Meta or Conjure Image, with Meta you can hit and run camps, with CI you use the illusion to tank until its low and then transfer aggro to main hero. Aim for a Lifesteal mask first, try to minimize damage done to main hero with Illusion/hit and run/choke point, although be conservative with your mana as CI costs a lot early on. You can suicide after the first 900g purchase, but lifesteal+meta can top your HP very fast. Then get HotD and stack ancients while finishing Treads/Yasha. Metamorphosed TB can clear a 5 stacked ancient camp with just HotD and Treads.
Some replays here (stomps not worth watching after the 15min mark, but they properly show the method).
http://dotabuff.com/matches/513947351 (Radiant)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/513161739 (Dire)
Found another, more interesting game (albeit said) starting on Dire jungle http://dotabuff.com/players/86718505
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Thank you. I will try that out.
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Just tried it against bots to get a feel for it, I'm surprised how well it works. The CI can only tank for a short while, but it's enough to get you going and once you get lifesteal mask, you can pretty much sustain any camp. I even had a tango left when I got my mask. The problem seems to be mana conservation, one should probably not use CI while using meta to conserve mana. Since leveling CI only raises damage, you can get reflection pretty early, which makes for quite the ganking potential. Go in, reflect, Meta, get kill, go back and use up meta in jungle.
Honestly, it worked so well that I'm definitely going to jungle TB next time someone steals safe lane.
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Oh god.
What this game did not need is another afk 20 minutes jungle carry.
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It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough.
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i just randomed this hero again, and it was an easy win again. I was going highground at ~17 minutes with treads, manta and a half skadi clicking my illusions on the tower and getting the tower despite 5 players trying to stop me. Ridicilous hero, and they even had a lot of nukes, didn't matter just rolled right over them.
/E i just checked my dotabuff and i have a new record, highest tower damage terrorblade 1 hour ago. lol
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On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough.
Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS.
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On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS.
the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Haven't had problems with mana with Treads switching and the occasional clarity shipped out to me. While the aura helps, Yasha does enough for that too.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one
buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D
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On February 12 2014 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D
????? drum charges and aura are useful for the entire team and it's an item you'll be holding onto until you're 6 slotted. buying a null that you'll sell pretty quickly is inefficient as hell and doesn't build into anything unless you're doing a troll dagon build
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[meme]I bought the drums because someone on this forum went on a 17 game winstreak with TB, i basically followed his itembuild [/meme=colour nyancat]
Maybe null+bracer or bracer+manastatring is better tho thinking about it. But drums saves 1 slot, dont forget that after this statgain you will farm so fast that there arent enough slots anyway. Same goes for Naga.
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i remember this beeing my favourite hero in dota.
The only heroes i can gain positive win ratios without trying too hard are him and puck.
Hes one of the heroes thats incredibly strong at a lower - mid level, and looses strength against players that counterpick or outplay him by knowing exactly what he does.
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Let's not have this Drum debate again, let people who still thinks Drums is a good item to be rushed on hard carries because it gives 80 mana and and 60 HP over a Bracer for 1350 gold keep building it. Null is bad too, the hero has no manapool issues with Tread switching and an occasional RoB/Aquila if you feel like it. It only makes sense to get Drums if you are going for a fighting Phase+SnY build, which is a suboptimal way to play him, but it can work.
Regardless of that, you want a Yasha ASAP to start farming jungle and lane at the same time.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 12 2014 22:09 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D ????? drum charges and aura are useful for the entire team and it's an item you'll be holding onto until you're 6 slotted. buying a null that you'll sell pretty quickly is inefficient as hell and doesn't build into anything unless you're doing a troll dagon build
Buying a null gives you (with bracer) all mana you will ever need as TB (but treads exist so this does not matter). Drums are a good support item for exactly this reason you mentioned (especially considering that if you think about it, drums aura and charges scale over time, just like vlads aura), but buying this on carries (ranged ones especially)... meh.
On February 13 2014 00:51 Noya wrote:
Let's not have this Drum debate again, let people who still thinks Drums is a good item to be rushed on hard carries because it gives 80 mana and and 60 HP over a Bracer for 1350 gold keep building it. Null is bad too, the hero has no manapool issues with Tread switching and an occasional RoB/Aquila if you feel like it. It only makes sense to get Drums if you are going for a fighting Phase+SnY build, which is a suboptimal way to play him, but it can work.
Regardless of that, you want a Yasha ASAP to start farming jungle and lane at the same time.
Null is bad, but if you really want to have that mana (that you don't because treads) it is still better than to complete these drums. And yes, Yasha is like core item on him.
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i disagree with drums being bad pickup on TB, TB actually has fairly big problems with closing the distance so he can get off reflection/sunder on enemies
both the passive and active movespeed from drums help with that a lot. i also like phases on him over treads for this same reason; i find that with phases he has really good killing potential even without assistance from teammates, which he otherwise lacks.
as an anecdote i'd like to show that meracle seems to believe in building TB with phase+drums like i do, and his stats on TB (83% winrate, 4.38 KDA, WHOPPING 758 average gpm) are very impressive. i'd especially like people to notice that average gpm which illustrates that even when going for a more midgamey killing build instead of just afk farming and split pushing, he will still farm very well.
http://dotabuff.com/players/91369376/matches?hero=terrorblade&game_mode=&match_type=real
that said, the build is of course situational and you can see that occasionally meracle does the more common treads radiance split push build. either way people shouldn't underestimate TB's capability as a phase+drums midgame carry.
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In one of the games Meracle stacked 3 S&Y.  Yesterday some guy flamed for getting one.
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I always thought drums were seen as nice movespeed with bonus stats instead of nice stats with bonus move speed, hence why they are usually taken on heroes that need speed (CM, naix, lina), are already fast (luna, lina, CK, DP) and don't mind some extra durability.
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On February 13 2014 01:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 22:09 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D ????? drum charges and aura are useful for the entire team and it's an item you'll be holding onto until you're 6 slotted. buying a null that you'll sell pretty quickly is inefficient as hell and doesn't build into anything unless you're doing a troll dagon build Buying a null gives you (with bracer) all mana you will ever need as TB (but treads exist so this does not matter). Drums are a good support item for exactly this reason you mentioned (especially considering that if you think about it, drums aura and charges scale over time, just like vlads aura), but buying this on carries (ranged ones especially)... meh. Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:51 Noya wrote:
Let's not have this Drum debate again, let people who still thinks Drums is a good item to be rushed on hard carries because it gives 80 mana and and 60 HP over a Bracer for 1350 gold keep building it. Null is bad too, the hero has no manapool issues with Tread switching and an occasional RoB/Aquila if you feel like it. It only makes sense to get Drums if you are going for a fighting Phase+SnY build, which is a suboptimal way to play him, but it can work.
Regardless of that, you want a Yasha ASAP to start farming jungle and lane at the same time. Null is bad, but if you really want to have that mana (that you don't because treads) it is still better than to complete these drums. And yes, Yasha is like core item on him.
Drums aura do not scale over time. Your MS is likely to be ~300 (average base MS?) + 50 from Phase/Treads. As the aura is a percentage of your MS, Drums always give you around +18 MS. With the active, it gives an additional ~+50. Other MS items like Yasha and Phase active (except Eul) are also percentage based which means whether or not it's early game or late game, Drums will add the same amount.
With that said, Phase active gives 16% MS. This means that if you went for Treads + Drums, you are never going to run faster than if you got Phase. Which again means that if you went for Treads and claimed you really needed MS from Drums, then why the heck are you not getting Phase in the first place. Notable heroes that fall into this category would be Luna, Sniper, Drow, TB, Razor, Medusa.
On February 13 2014 01:17 iv~nk~j wrote:i disagree with drums being bad pickup on TB, TB actually has fairly big problems with closing the distance so he can get off reflection/sunder on enemies both the passive and active movespeed from drums help with that a lot. i also like phases on him over treads for this same reason; i find that with phases he has really good killing potential even without assistance from teammates, which he otherwise lacks. as an anecdote i'd like to show that meracle seems to believe in building TB with phase+drums like i do, and his stats on TB (83% winrate, 4.38 KDA, WHOPPING 758 average gpm) are very impressive. i'd especially like people to notice that average gpm which illustrates that even when going for a more midgamey killing build instead of just afk farming and split pushing, he will still farm very well. http://dotabuff.com/players/91369376/matches?hero=terrorblade&game_mode=&match_type=realthat said, the build is of course situational and you can see that occasionally meracle does the more common treads radiance split push build. either way people shouldn't underestimate TB's capability as a phase+drums midgame carry.
I generally disagree with looking at 'pro players' games, especially when high winrate and GPM are cited. A quick look at his TB games and you can see how often he is always playing in a stack with 'snow', 'ranto', xfreedom, and dafa-.
Regardless, my stance on Drums is this:
1) If you are getting it solely for the stats, then a Bracer + Null is a cheaper alternative with comparable stats. Then again do you really need the extra 60 HP and 80 Mana that you need to upgrade the Bracer or get an extra Null? Also note that a Point Booster provides slightly greater amount of HP/MP than Drums, and can be upgraded into something useful.
2) If you are getting Drums for a supposed DPS boost due to its AS component, then I'm sorry you have no basis for argument. 5AS/15AS has an insignificant impact to your attack speed. It is just a pathetic bonus 0.03/0.09 attacks per second.
3) If you are getting Drums for the stats and MS, then it may be valid to get it provided a) you are using Phase, and b) the hero really needs the MS. Pretty much every ranged hero (except TA) fails part b because they do not suffer from kiting issues. CK is probably the only hero that can go Treads + Drums because he benefits from the stats Drums + Treads give, needs the AS that Treads provide, and have a 'boots advantage' (393 - 350 = 43MS) with the aura, and situationally can use the active well. Phase + Drums on him is an overkill in MS.
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i don't know how you can say that phase+drums is an overkill on him in MS
there really isn't such thing as overkill in MS until you reach the 522 cap, more MS is always strictly beneficial
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 13 2014 02:46 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 01:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 12 2014 22:09 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D ????? drum charges and aura are useful for the entire team and it's an item you'll be holding onto until you're 6 slotted. buying a null that you'll sell pretty quickly is inefficient as hell and doesn't build into anything unless you're doing a troll dagon build Buying a null gives you (with bracer) all mana you will ever need as TB (but treads exist so this does not matter). Drums are a good support item for exactly this reason you mentioned (especially considering that if you think about it, drums aura and charges scale over time, just like vlads aura), but buying this on carries (ranged ones especially)... meh. On February 13 2014 00:51 Noya wrote:
Let's not have this Drum debate again, let people who still thinks Drums is a good item to be rushed on hard carries because it gives 80 mana and and 60 HP over a Bracer for 1350 gold keep building it. Null is bad too, the hero has no manapool issues with Tread switching and an occasional RoB/Aquila if you feel like it. It only makes sense to get Drums if you are going for a fighting Phase+SnY build, which is a suboptimal way to play him, but it can work.
Regardless of that, you want a Yasha ASAP to start farming jungle and lane at the same time. Null is bad, but if you really want to have that mana (that you don't because treads) it is still better than to complete these drums. And yes, Yasha is like core item on him. Drums aura do not scale over time. Your MS is likely to be ~300 (average base MS?) + 50 from Phase/Treads. As the aura is a percentage of your MS, Drums always give you around +18 MS. With the active, it gives an additional ~+50. Other MS items like Yasha and Phase active (except Eul) are also percentage based which means whether or not it's early game or late game, Drums will add the same amount. With that said, Phase active gives 16% MS. This means that if you went for Treads + Drums, you are never going to run faster than if you got Phase. Which again means that if you went for Treads and claimed you really needed MS from Drums, then why the heck are you not getting Phase in the first place. Notable heroes that fall into this category would be Luna, Sniper, Drow, TB, Razor, Medusa.
Actually that 5/15 IAS scales with raw damage, i did not say that it scales well. It just kind of scales. Hence i consider it a good item to get for support.
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On February 13 2014 02:58 iv~nk~j wrote:
i don't know how you can say that phase+drums is an overkill on him in MS
there really isn't such thing as overkill in MS until you reach the 522 cap, more MS is always strictly beneficial
I hope we are on the same page that I'm referring to CK. With Treads + Drums, he has a 'Boots advantage (+43MS)' over the average MS heroes. He mainly uses this MS advantage to get in range for Bolt/Rift. Just the aura is usually sufficient for the purpose. If there is a need for more MS, the extra 37 MS from the charges should get the job done.
Consider if he went Phase + Drums instead. The Phase active is equivalent to using the Drums active in the former's case. It means that there is hardly ever a need for the charge usage with Phase + Drums, and hence my overkill remark.
On February 13 2014 03:15 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually that 5/15 IAS scales with raw damage, i did not say that it scales well. It just kind of scales. Hence i consider it a good item to get for support.
It's not a percentage. It does not scale at all. 5/15 IAS is 0.03/0.09 attacks per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (which most heroes are).
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
It's not a percentage. It does not scale at all. 5/15 IAS is 0.03/0.09 attacks per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (which most heroes are).
It does scale with damage per attack. It is ignorable, but form of scaling. And yes, i am with you on drums being overrated item.
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On February 13 2014 03:30 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 02:58 iv~nk~j wrote:
i don't know how you can say that phase+drums is an overkill on him in MS
there really isn't such thing as overkill in MS until you reach the 522 cap, more MS is always strictly beneficial I hope we are on the same page that I'm referring to CK. With Treads + Drums, he has a 'Boots advantage (+43MS)' over the average MS heroes. He mainly uses this MS advantage to get in range for Bolt/Rift. Just the aura is usually sufficient for the purpose. If there is a need for more MS, the extra 37 MS from the charges should get the job done. Consider if he went Phase + Drums instead. The Phase active is equivalent to using the Drums active in the former's case. It means that there is hardly ever a need for the charge usage with Phase + Drums, and hence my overkill remark. Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 03:15 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually that 5/15 IAS scales with raw damage, i did not say that it scales well. It just kind of scales. Hence i consider it a good item to get for support. It's not a percentage. It does not scale at all. 5/15 IAS is 0.03/0.09 attacks per second on a 1.7 BAT hero (which most heroes are).
nah i thought you were talking about TB in TB thread
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I think i'm in love with this hero, he is so good at punishing greedy drafts
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After 2 heartbreaking losses, I came to the conclusion that Naga with Radiance outcarries TB without Radiance :/
Consider getting one yourself if you see a naga walking around with naked boots at the 15min mark and your team composition doesn't deal well with splitpush.
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@lolfail9001, ah yes my bad there.
On February 13 2014 08:09 Noya wrote:
After 2 heartbreaking losses, I came to the conclusion that Naga with Radiance outcarries TB without Radiance :/
Consider getting one yourself if you see a naga walking around with naked boots at the 15min mark and your team composition doesn't deal well with splitpush.
I personally see it as all the more reason to focus on right clicks with him rather than try to beat naga in her own game. I mean naga does the whole radiance spit pushing thing more effectively, so you are at a disadvantage right from the start. Why not focus on a strength you have instead, namely metamorphosis?
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Well what if you got a radiance to counter naga splitpush? You can't really push back against naga's illusions, but she really can't kill your illusions either, so if you sit mid and send illusions to both sidelanes, you can halt the creepwave before it gets to your tower, especially if the naga does meracle-esque illusions in front of the t3 stuff.
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my standard is pt/drums/bkb or sny/skadi/manta/heart/halberd. the +80 dmg from metamorph is enough to make your dps matter, the rest is general stat buffs and speed. you can't let fuckers escape you, and you want sunder to be as op as possible, thus you just tank the fuck up. seeing the items, noobs usually underestimate my damage as well as overestimate their ability to kill me at all. 7 base armor, a million agility, two million hp and possibly evasion if late enough. i pretty much never get killed without getting sunder off, it gives me a fresh chunk of 4k hp, and the entire team can bas their heads against my face and i just laugh.
also, low hp me out of nowhere -> sunder -> halberd -> feel their moans of helplessness.
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you can last hit safely with illusions when you have qb and bracer
it just requires a bit of micro
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qb doesnt effect illusions?
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Pretty sure it doesn't but it used to be.
I remember Na'Vi asking a rematch because XBOCT bought QB on PL without knowing it didn't affect illusions.
edit: NVM It does work on illusions, the bug was about the QB adding more damage to illusions than it was supposed to add.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
The bug was that it increased your illusion damage by the full 32% of what your original hero's damage was. That was fixed a while ago. I still go for it on TB every game, less for split pushing with illusions (though it definitely helps for that) but more because my last hitting is atrocious without it.
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Qb helps your jungeling a lot as well, and TB should be spending a lot of time in the jungle.
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QB is core, yes. After Treads+Yasha and lvl 4 Conjure Image, you have around 100 base damage, which means illusions get 100*0.60*0.32 = ~20 damage from a 225g item. The difference is huge, and its very easy to lasthit in lane while jungling with the main hero.
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Does the QB still work during meta (with or without the lowered %), and is the extra damage from meta included in the calculation?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 14 2014 16:21 Tobberoth wrote:
Does the QB still work during meta (with or without the lowered %), and is the extra damage from meta included in the calculation?
Does work, but bonus damage is obviously cut. And yes, it should count in meta bonus damage.
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I've always wanted to try Armlet Terrorblade. Anyone have success with it?
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sounds like a waste of money since you're not a strength hero and no regen ability and doesn't help your split push or farm as much as getting your manta faster
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On February 14 2014 09:53 Noya wrote:
QB is core, yes. After Treads+Yasha and lvl 4 Conjure Image, you have around 100 base damage, which means illusions get 100*0.60*0.32 = ~20 damage from a 225g item. The difference is huge, and its very easy to lasthit in lane while jungling with the main hero.
Your illusions don't get a percentage of your damage anymore, they get a percentage of the illusions damage. Still good, but not 20 damage that early good I think?
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On February 14 2014 18:28 holyhalo5 wrote:
I've always wanted to try Armlet Terrorblade. Anyone have success with it?
Could be cool for sunder ganks but very risky and probably not worth it, Manta is just too good on TB and once you get that you will be really hard to kill at that point. That is my experience anyway.
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On February 14 2014 20:19 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2014 09:53 Noya wrote:
QB is core, yes. After Treads+Yasha and lvl 4 Conjure Image, you have around 100 base damage, which means illusions get 100*0.60*0.32 = ~20 damage from a 225g item. The difference is huge, and its very easy to lasthit in lane while jungling with the main hero. Your illusions don't get a percentage of your damage anymore, they get a percentage of the illusions damage. Still good, but not 20 damage that early good I think?
His calculation is correct, it did account for the illusion damage. That's what the *0.60 is calculating.
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TB seems to be VERY strong once he hits lvl 3. Pretty amazing how you can just have pms and treads and just rip apart people, there's really no way to go toe to toe with him it seems past that mark whenever Meta is up. I've yet to encounter a longlane hero that was solo able to do jack squat against me on TB and my buddy on any support. Is there a hero that can actually pressure the TB solo and stop freefarm? Because with decent freefarm tb just gets ridiculous past minute 16 when he gets manta and he can start 1v3ing.
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On February 15 2014 05:44 Varth wrote:
Is there a hero that can actually pressure the TB solo and stop freefarm?
I think Dark Seer could pose a threat for TB, keeping his HP low while being able to escape from his slow.
Lich is also very strong since his nuking potential gets extreme if he is soloing.
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Phoenix totally shits on TB. Well timed set of spirits will almost kill him, and unless he's paired with a Disruptor, his chances of killing you are miniscule. I also like WR, but you have to be good at timing powershot with his lasthitting.
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Because of the strengths of metamorphosis in the early mid game, its little relative relevance late game except to turn you into ranged hero, and conjure's non existent early game., I prefer to build my TB around metamorphosis. It is for the same reason that I do no like radiance on him. My reasoning is why focus so much on farming up to your late game, when you can start dominating from early to mid game.
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The starting 500hp isnt that much, 2 nukes and he willl be below 50% hp. His name is meleesnipers and he seems easy gankable becuz non-hoof hero
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On February 15 2014 16:40 DucK- wrote:
Because of the strengths of metamorphosis in the early mid game, its little relative relevance late game except to turn you into ranged hero, and conjure's non existent early game., I prefer to build my TB around metamorphosis. It is for the same reason that I do no like radiance on him. My reasoning is why focus so much on farming up to your late game, when you can start dominating from early to mid game.
Metamorphosis adds 220 damage if you have two illusions up and Manta Style as well, that's pretty sick 15-20 minutes into the game. However, Terrorblade is still really squishy and building a BKB does not help your illusions survive. I think you need to consider the particular game very carefully before deciding what style of play to adapt.
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On February 15 2014 22:22 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 16:40 DucK- wrote:
Because of the strengths of metamorphosis in the early mid game, its little relative relevance late game except to turn you into ranged hero, and conjure's non existent early game., I prefer to build my TB around metamorphosis. It is for the same reason that I do no like radiance on him. My reasoning is why focus so much on farming up to your late game, when you can start dominating from early to mid game. Metamorphosis adds 220 damage if you have two illusions up and Manta Style as well, that's pretty sick 15-20 minutes into the game. However, Terrorblade is still really squishy and building a BKB does not help your illusions survive. I think you need to consider the particular game very carefully before deciding what style of play to adapt.
Doesn't meta affect only your main hero? I don't recall illusions benefitting from +damage.
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On February 15 2014 22:40 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:22 ZerG~LegenD wrote:On February 15 2014 16:40 DucK- wrote:
Because of the strengths of metamorphosis in the early mid game, its little relative relevance late game except to turn you into ranged hero, and conjure's non existent early game., I prefer to build my TB around metamorphosis. It is for the same reason that I do no like radiance on him. My reasoning is why focus so much on farming up to your late game, when you can start dominating from early to mid game. Metamorphosis adds 220 damage if you have two illusions up and Manta Style as well, that's pretty sick 15-20 minutes into the game. However, Terrorblade is still really squishy and building a BKB does not help your illusions survive. I think you need to consider the particular game very carefully before deciding what style of play to adapt. Doesn't meta affect only your main hero? I don't recall illusions benefitting from +damage.
Meta adds base damage for this reason
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On February 15 2014 22:57 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 22:40 DucK- wrote:On February 15 2014 22:22 ZerG~LegenD wrote:On February 15 2014 16:40 DucK- wrote:
Because of the strengths of metamorphosis in the early mid game, its little relative relevance late game except to turn you into ranged hero, and conjure's non existent early game., I prefer to build my TB around metamorphosis. It is for the same reason that I do no like radiance on him. My reasoning is why focus so much on farming up to your late game, when you can start dominating from early to mid game. Metamorphosis adds 220 damage if you have two illusions up and Manta Style as well, that's pretty sick 15-20 minutes into the game. However, Terrorblade is still really squishy and building a BKB does not help your illusions survive. I think you need to consider the particular game very carefully before deciding what style of play to adapt. Doesn't meta affect only your main hero? I don't recall illusions benefitting from +damage. Meta adds base damage for this reason
Ah I see. No wonder conjure illusions do hurt too. It still doesn't change my approach though. I'd still rather abuse metamorphosis than do some radiance shenanigans.
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I've been getting a Hex a lot as a 5th or 6th item on this hero. It feels situationally really good, if the enemy carry is down to a low BKB you can just crush them. However, I don't think TB has any particular synergy with the item. I haven't played much carry in the past (I love this hero though), but I feel like Hex is an undervalued item on carries in general, yet you almost never see it. Or maybe my friends being so fucking awful at disabling the right hero at the right time makes me overvalue it.
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On February 16 2014 05:14 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
I've been getting a Hex a lot as a 5th or 6th item on this hero. It feels situationally really good, if the enemy carry is down to a low BKB you can just crush them. However, I don't think TB has any particular synergy with the item. I haven't played much carry in the past (I love this hero though), but I feel like Hex is an undervalued item on carries in general, you almost never see it. Or maybe my friends being so fucking awful at the disabling the right hero at the right time makes me overvalue it.
Don't fret about it. Hex is legit on any carry hero
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On February 10 2014 23:02 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 21:49 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D. The problem is a truely close late game most of the time if you spend meta on a fight away from their base, win the fight(if you lose the fight obviously you are pretty much done), go to their base, it wears off and they buyback and you are pretty much useless as well unless its a melee carry who lets you reflection on him and go to town on him. Not to mention if opponents have a dual/tri core that can fight at any point and you are a hero who can only fight effectively with your spell up its not hard to see which way the wind is blowing ._. Also medusa's ultimate automatically kills illusions, dont need rapier + split for that. But ultimately after going 17-1 on TB over past 2-3 days, i find that if opponents are the right composition you probably have to get bkb first/second/third item depending on how hard they counter you... Which is pretty terrible for a illusion hero. Illusion hero? TB is only illusion carry if you want to go with that route. He can be straight up melee/ranged single target right clicker with pure damage items and bkb if there is someone to turn his stats against him (dark seer being worst example). His midgame is good enough to afford to buy bkb (let's be honest, bkb is suboptimal on luna too, even ethereal is better if there is no need for bkb, but it is a must because well, you kinda want to do that damage). Melee carry that can just ignore opposition and go straight for rax/throne since his dps and tankiness (6 slot tb, mind you) allows him to ignore most of cores in lategame while destroying your base at speeds of lycan. Or even better, go farm for buyback and just send you 400+ dps illusions do the job. Medusa killing illusions means that for some strange reason you decided you are as manly as Leoric and decided to face dusa during her ult (all 5 of you).
Are you seriously arguing that illusions was not a factor in the balancing of TB? And its a optional illusion hero? Yes, he can, but i CAN go anti mage with blink dagger and force staff too. Its obviously the most optimal way to play TB for the same reason you wouldnt play naga without mirror image or full stats PL. You CAN but why the hell would you want to.
And as for medusa killing illusions, wtf. So you can choose when or not to fight medusa(youll have to fight her at SOME point anyway), but she cant save her ultimate till you finally wish to fight her? i didnt know medusa had a built-in retard mode feature. So just let her kill rax, kill towers, kill throne because you dont want to face medusa during her ulti?
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On February 16 2014 17:23 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 23:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 10 2014 21:49 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D. The problem is a truely close late game most of the time if you spend meta on a fight away from their base, win the fight(if you lose the fight obviously you are pretty much done), go to their base, it wears off and they buyback and you are pretty much useless as well unless its a melee carry who lets you reflection on him and go to town on him. Not to mention if opponents have a dual/tri core that can fight at any point and you are a hero who can only fight effectively with your spell up its not hard to see which way the wind is blowing ._. Also medusa's ultimate automatically kills illusions, dont need rapier + split for that. But ultimately after going 17-1 on TB over past 2-3 days, i find that if opponents are the right composition you probably have to get bkb first/second/third item depending on how hard they counter you... Which is pretty terrible for a illusion hero. Illusion hero? TB is only illusion carry if you want to go with that route. He can be straight up melee/ranged single target right clicker with pure damage items and bkb if there is someone to turn his stats against him (dark seer being worst example). His midgame is good enough to afford to buy bkb (let's be honest, bkb is suboptimal on luna too, even ethereal is better if there is no need for bkb, but it is a must because well, you kinda want to do that damage). Melee carry that can just ignore opposition and go straight for rax/throne since his dps and tankiness (6 slot tb, mind you) allows him to ignore most of cores in lategame while destroying your base at speeds of lycan. Or even better, go farm for buyback and just send you 400+ dps illusions do the job. Medusa killing illusions means that for some strange reason you decided you are as manly as Leoric and decided to face dusa during her ult (all 5 of you). Are you seriously arguing that illusions was not a factor in the balancing of TB? And its a optional illusion hero? Yes, he can, but i CAN go anti mage with blink dagger and force staff too. Its obviously the most optimal way to play TB for the same reason you wouldnt play naga without mirror image or full stats PL. You CAN but why the hell would you want to. And as for medusa killing illusions, wtf. So you can choose when or not to fight medusa(youll have to fight her at SOME point anyway), but she cant save her ultimate till you finally wish to fight her? i didnt know medusa had a built-in retard mode feature. So just let her kill rax, kill towers, kill throne because you dont want to face medusa during her ulti?
I don't think his point is to skip illusions. He is just saying that there is no need to build totally around it. You do not need to specifically get stat items to boost illusions, or Heart/Radiance for that matter. Meta is so strong that you can build TB around it too. You can opt to build TB as a normal right click hero, and considering that you will end up with Bfly/Manta as well, your illusions are still going to hurt alot. You just don't need to play TB with the mindset that you must buff his illusions as much as possible.
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I love Terrorblade. So strong in a tri or even dual lane granted the enemy doesn't have too many nukers against you. Whenever your team creates space you easily take down a tower or two.
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you get radiance on him because it allows you to farm 2lanes and the jungle at the same time
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On February 17 2014 06:08 Erasme wrote:
you get radiance on him because it allows you to farm 2lanes and the jungle at the same time
Which I accept that it makes you into something like naga, albeit less effective in doing so. My only issue is that going for radiance means you are not abusing the strength of meta/tb in the early mid game. It is the similar to acid greed Alch. You have a skill that is so OP early mid game, but you choose to forgo abusing it in favour of a farming route.
While it is definitely not as terrible as the Alch example, it is still IMO not the best way to play TB.
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I dont understand how this hero is not dominating pub games more (he's at 49% according to dotabuff). He has felt so incredibly strong so far when I played him, so far i'm 6-0 and i feel that even if my laning stage is not great i can do so much around level 10-11
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On February 18 2014 17:42 Jetaap wrote:
I dont understand how this hero is not dominating pub games more (he's at 49% according to dotabuff). He has felt so incredibly strong so far when I played him, so far i'm 6-0 and i feel that even if my laning stage is not great i can do so much around level 10-11
More often than not I find it due to them being focused on trying to rat with him, rather than just man up tower push in mid game by abusing Meta. Also most of them skip BKB.
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BKB is so boring but frustratingly necessary on this guy :c
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BKB is the ultimate man up item dunno why you say it's boring
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On February 18 2014 22:50 Zealos wrote:
BKB is so boring but frustratingly necessary on this guy :c
On February 18 2014 23:49 KOFgokuon wrote:
BKB is the ultimate man up item dunno why you say it's boring
True. If anything, I find ratting with TB even more boring.
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Blink is a fun and surprisingly good item on Terrorblade after a Manta+Skadi/BKB Core.
The fact that you can use it 3 times for 0 mana in a 30 second fight is so good.
TB already has insane damage output, but people can still run after you pop Meta if your team doesn't initiate for you. Blink fixes that and gives you the possibility of backing off in low HP -> hide/juke -> Blink on a full HP (ranged) hero and get a free kill+full heal instead of futilely trying to get in range of Sunder while walking with 25% HP.
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On February 19 2014 11:35 Noya wrote:
Blink is a fun and surprisingly good item on Terrorblade after a Manta+Skadi/BKB Core.
The fact that you can use it 3 times for 0 mana in a 30 second fight is so good.
TB already has insane damage output, but people can still run after you pop Meta if your team doesn't initiate for you. Blink fixes that and gives you the possibility of backing off in low HP -> hide/juke -> Blink on a full HP (ranged) hero and get a free kill+full heal instead of futilely trying to get in range of Sunder while walking with 25% HP.
With the cooldown on Metamorphosis that kind of build is 100% worse than blink Doom in any non 1v1 situation.
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On February 18 2014 23:49 KOFgokuon wrote:
BKB is the ultimate man up item dunno why you say it's boring
It is boring , normally in dota you alwais have to position yourself well and have good reflexes to dodge the most spell u can. BKB is a very i click on the button and i right click on the hero i can burst down the fastest
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If I'd go for a mobility item on Tb it'd be Force Staff. So people can't kite your Sunder. Hoping that blink won't be disabled in a teamfight seems iffy. You could also consider a sheep stick instead.
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Optimally your team will set up your sunder for you, I mean it's not like you have to be hugging the enemies during the whole teamfight. A single disable will let you do the trick.
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On February 20 2014 06:10 Hagen0 wrote:
If I'd go for a mobility item on Tb it'd be Force Staff. So people can't kite your Sunder. Hoping that blink won't be disabled in a teamfight seems iffy. You could also consider a sheep stick instead.
Movement speed and a BKB will do that as well.
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the only time you want blink is if you also have dagon
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The hate for drums is strange. Buying a null talisman is bad because you will have to sell it. Movement speed IS important for this hero (and every other hero in the game) - there's a reason that drum/SnY/Skadi is recommended. Furthermore, if you don't escape death/secure kills at least once/twice thanks to drum charges, you're probably doing something wrong.
If somebody else in your team is building drums, I'd say skip it. Otherwise it's an important item to have.
I have to try SB/Dagon sometime :D
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
Eblade is better dagon on TB. Not to mention that DPS wise it is one of the strongest DPS items on him.
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just stack butterflies on tb after the manta/skadi core. if the enemy carries dont get mkb its game, if they do (of course they do) its still the best dps you can get all in all. illusion power gets to absurd levels. well 2 is enough propably : )
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 21 2014 00:58 whoso wrote:
just stack butterflies on tb after the manta/skadi core. if the enemy carries dont get mkb its game, if they do (of course they do) its still the best dps you can get
Eblade comes close (or even beats) bfly if enemy has mkb and you start approaching certain values of IAS and dmg. Do not forget illusions.
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uh dont know. on your main hero eblade is never going to beat bfly dps wise, and for your illusions, true, it gives 5 agility more but all in all i doubt its going to beat bfly. still the option to go ethereal might make it worth it
edit: actually, double bfly eblade for a 6 slot build could be pretty fine, with skadi manta bots. splitpushing the base with those illusions solo
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On February 21 2014 01:04 whoso wrote:
uh dont know. on your main hero eblade is never going to beat bfly dps wise, and for your illusions, true, it gives 5 agility more but all in all i doubt its going to beat bfly. still the option to go ethereal might make it worth it
edit: actually, double bfly eblade for a 6 slot build could be pretty fine, with skadi manta bots. splitpushing the base with those illusions solo
EthBlade is 10 extra Agility over Butterfly. Especially with a Manta build, you're leaving so many stats off the table for your illusions it doesn't make any sense to stack Butterfly.
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Lategame I rather have Satanic/Daedalus/new BKB/Abyssal/Hex for last slot instead of another agility item. Illusions and splitpush TB is strong but there are times when you have to manfight.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 21 2014 01:04 whoso wrote:
uh dont know. on your main hero eblade is never going to beat bfly dps wise, and for your illusions, true, it gives 5 agility more but all in all i doubt its going to beat bfly. still the option to go ethereal might make it worth it
edit: actually, double bfly eblade for a 6 slot build could be pretty fine, with skadi manta bots. splitpushing the base with those illusions solo
Let's do some math.
Let's say we have lvl25 TB with manta skadi bots. Since we are only interested in raw damage output of TB+ his illusion squad here i will leave 35% evasion of bfly out of consideration. Our tb with his squad has 22+3.2*24+20+25+26 = agility (and 15 AS from manta that works with illusions) for a DPS of something like (29+169)(100+169+15)*2.86/(100*1.5) ~ 1075 DPS (with all illusions up) (or (109+169)(100+169+15)*2.76/(100*1.6) ~ 1361 with meta up).
Let's compare:
1) Bfly vs eblade.
2) Eblade + Bfly vs 2x Eblade vs 2x Bfly.
1)
Blfy will give total DPS of ((29+199+30)(100+199+45) + (29+199)*(100+199+15)*1.86)/150 ~ 1479 DPS in melee and
~1790 in ranged.
Eblade will do ..... ((29+209)*(100+209+15)*2.86/150 ~ 1470 DPS in melee and ~1777 in ranged.
So as you see they give really close DPS values. Considering that bflly does not give HP or MP and is more expensive imo it is only worth it if enemies did not have a reason to get mkb yet.
2)
2x Bfly: ((29+229+60)*(100+229+75)+(29+229)*(100+229+15)*1.86)/150 ~ 1957 melee and ~2283 ranged
2x Eblade ~ 1929 melee DPS and ~2247 ranged
Eblade + Bfly: ~1939 melee ; ~ 2262
Interesting results to say the least. So overall i favor my favorite build of eblade+bfly after skadi-manta. As for last item, it is completely situational either to deliver the dps or to multiply it (daedalus).
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On February 21 2014 01:34 Noya wrote:
Lategame I rather have Satanic/Daedalus/new BKB/Abyssal/Hex for last slot instead of another agility item. Illusions and splitpush TB is strong but there are times when you have to manfight.
And I'd rather play Naga than TB but what does that have to do with Butterfly versus EthBlade?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 21 2014 01:34 Noya wrote:
Lategame I rather have Satanic/Daedalus/new BKB/Abyssal/Hex for last slot instead of another agility item. Illusions and splitpush TB is strong but there are times when you have to manfight.
Hence the question is: what 2 agility items you want as 3rd and 4th slot :D
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On February 21 2014 00:49 lolfail9001 wrote:
Eblade is better dagon on TB. Not to mention that DPS wise it is one of the strongest DPS items on him.
eblade is twice as expensive as dagon
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 21 2014 05:19 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 00:49 lolfail9001 wrote:
Eblade is better dagon on TB. Not to mention that DPS wise it is one of the strongest DPS items on him. eblade is twice as expensive as dagon
Because it is DPS item too, makes sense :D. Not to mention that burst it gives is ~dagon 4 (that costs like bfly, mind you) in amount of damage at lvl25 TB with manta, skadi, bfly, eblade
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if you're going blink dagon i don't think you're worried about lv25 lol
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 21 2014 05:39 Dead9 wrote:
if you're going blink dagon i don't think you're worried about lv25 lol
Eblade serves as stat item (that is good for pushing), not as dagon replacement. It has utility of it though, i won't deny :3,
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Manta Skadi BKB BFly BoT MKB
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daily reminder that if ure not buying radiance on TB, then u might as well not play TB.
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On February 21 2014 20:12 ChunderBoy wrote:
daily reminder that if ure buying radiance on TB, then u might as well play Naga
Fixed it for you
Now seriously, why Radiance when you can get all T2s with just Manta and go highground after Manta Skadi at 25minutes?
I see Radiance on TB as a "my team wont be able to take fights early anyway"/"we just need to stall until lategame and we win". In that case I get it, but apart from helping you get 6 slotted sooner, I don't like the synergy. Both the 60% damage illusions and 550 Range 80base damage aspects of the hero doesn't synergize with the item.
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On February 21 2014 22:25 Noya wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 20:12 ChunderBoy wrote:
daily reminder that if ure buying radiance on TB, then u might as well play Naga Fixed it for you Now seriously, why Radiance when you can get all T2s with just Manta and go highground after Manta Skadi at 25minutes? I see Radiance on TB as a "my team wont be able to take fights early anyway"/"we just need to stall until lategame and we win". In that case I get it, but apart from helping you get 6 slotted sooner, I don't like the synergy. Both the 60% damage illusions and 550 Range 80base damage aspects of the hero doesn't synergize with the item.
radiance on TB is way more important than radiance on Naga, if u fail to see that try figuring out why. implying teamfighting or fighting in general is in any way favourable ever if u have a hardcarry especially terrorblade. radiance makes u take control of the whole map, u literally decide for the enemy when they push and when they dont. manta first on tb is such a fucking joke. you can literally have pms quelling treads yasha rad at ~16min. if freefarming you shud be hitting more than 10cs by 10min. you also dont need a manta to take a T2 nor do u need a team with u to do so, constant pressure everywhere gives u so much space to do it freely.
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Agreed to disagree, because I've never seen a radiance TB actually win a game
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Beesa is in obviously right in theory, in most cases radiance is an insane item on tb IF your team knows how to play when your #1 is getting a radiance and the lineups are even. His standpoint is understandable as someone who plays in stacks regularly but if you happen to soloqueue or play with generally inexperienced (bad) people radiance is absolutely NOT the item to go for and manta is a lot more solid.
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On February 21 2014 23:00 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 22:25 Noya wrote:On February 21 2014 20:12 ChunderBoy wrote:
daily reminder that if ure buying radiance on TB, then u might as well play Naga Fixed it for you Now seriously, why Radiance when you can get all T2s with just Manta and go highground after Manta Skadi at 25minutes? I see Radiance on TB as a "my team wont be able to take fights early anyway"/"we just need to stall until lategame and we win". In that case I get it, but apart from helping you get 6 slotted sooner, I don't like the synergy. Both the 60% damage illusions and 550 Range 80base damage aspects of the hero doesn't synergize with the item. you can literally have pms quelling treads yasha rad at ~16min. if freefarming you shud be hitting more than 10cs by 10min.
Please, provide a replay of 600GPM Terrorblade at 16mins in which Radiance made any difference, or any with more than 10 cs per minute by min 10. Serious request not kidding, I really want to improve my farm with this hero, and if you get it so early, of course it can have a sick impact. I know you can lasthit in lane with QB illusion while your main hero farms the jungle, but I don't get that level of free farm in my games sadly.
Anyway with that amount of farm you could be getting a Skadi Manta at min 20 and just A click their base.
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On February 21 2014 23:36 Noya wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 23:00 ChunderBoy wrote:On February 21 2014 22:25 Noya wrote:On February 21 2014 20:12 ChunderBoy wrote:
daily reminder that if ure buying radiance on TB, then u might as well play Naga Fixed it for you Now seriously, why Radiance when you can get all T2s with just Manta and go highground after Manta Skadi at 25minutes? I see Radiance on TB as a "my team wont be able to take fights early anyway"/"we just need to stall until lategame and we win". In that case I get it, but apart from helping you get 6 slotted sooner, I don't like the synergy. Both the 60% damage illusions and 550 Range 80base damage aspects of the hero doesn't synergize with the item. you can literally have pms quelling treads yasha rad at ~16min. if freefarming you shud be hitting more than 10cs by 10min. Please, provide a replay of 600GPM Terrorblade at 16mins in which Radiance made any difference, or any with more than 10 cs per minute by min 10. Serious request not kidding, I really want to improve my farm with this hero, and if you get it so early, of course it can have a sick impact. I know you can lasthit in lane with QB illusion while your main hero farms the jungle, but I don't get that level of free farm in my games sadly. Anyway with that amount of farm you could be getting a Skadi Manta at min 20 and just A click their base.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/493401289 | https://www.dropbox.com/s/t0rgt3999khvris/493401289.dem
http://dotabuff.com/matches/493325131 | n/a
http://dotabuff.com/matches/512188054 | https://www.dropbox.com/s/i8vhkxnimh02up9/512188054.dem
http://dotabuff.com/matches/495895461 | https://www.dropbox.com/s/h7sc3kp574gclhn/495895461.dem
http://dotabuff.com/matches/513148083 | https://www.dropbox.com/s/a3erlsl1903zad9/513148083.dem
all of these games were already winning i guess
http://dotabuff.com/matches/513191997 | https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fz3ry20mkcrzf1/513191997.dem
the last one might show u how radiance wins losing games.
ive managed to get 130cs at 11min with am once. but in complete free farm lanes its so much easier with naga/tb
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every replay expired, fml 
But yeah I see where you are going, that's some sick farm.
Do you yasha before Radiance? what happens if you get your lane contested/not free farm?
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On February 21 2014 23:47 Noya wrote:every replay expired, fml But yeah I see where you are going, that's some sick farm. Do you yasha before Radiance? what happens if you get your lane contested/not free farm?
ill try dropboxxing them, getting lane contested doesnt matter much for tb, u can use meta and hit enemies/creeps and u can always get as much as u can and jungle later, coz rly u have unlimited sustainability in the jungle with ur 7 armour and 2.5 hp regen at lvl 1. radiance rushes suck, ideally get yasha or drum before. imo the most ideal build is 1-4-2 but most of the times i find myself maxing meta before illu. if lane/jungle dynamics were same as pre-6.79 i think id manage 1k gpm and 600 cs at 35min every game with this hero.
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On February 21 2014 23:47 Noya wrote:every replay expired, fml But yeah I see where you are going, that's some sick farm. Do you yasha before Radiance? what happens if you get your lane contested/not free farm?
Re-uploaded that last game for you. You'll have to figure out how to watch it on your own though, I've forgotten how to.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Console
Playdemo replays/replaynumber
Edit: actually you don't even need to do this. Just search up the replay in game through the filter menu and it'll work that way since it's not a private lobby.
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im currently uploading them to dropbox, first time using it tho. you can just 1-2min google on how to watch downloaded replays later. will put them as an edit on previous post. DONE
time to nap
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im calling there is no way this hero is ever going to be released to cm in his current state
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On February 21 2014 23:27 gaymon wrote:
Beesa is in obviously right in theory, in most cases radiance is an insane item on tb IF your team knows how to play when your #1 is getting a radiance and the lineups are even. His standpoint is understandable as someone who plays in stacks regularly but if you happen to soloqueue or play with generally inexperienced (bad) people radiance is absolutely NOT the item to go for and manta is a lot more solid.
Beesa?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
getting a DD at level 7-8 is hilarious for pushing appearently.
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Terrorblade tbh is by far one of the strongest pubstomping heroes. I usually jungle with him. It's a little slow at first, but his metamorphosis and illusions do a LOT of damage and rack money pretty quickly. Also, with his high agility and hp regen, he can easily eat up jungle creeps. Once you get SnY and Manta (I prefer drums for some tankiness and speed), he is a wrecking ball when it comes to pushing and can easily get the money for skadi.
The radiance build is viable, but it's a bit too greedy imo. He has one of highest agility gain and has a third ability that does tons of damage. Radiance is a bit of overkill because there are many other items that are way more useful for him. Also, he doesn't have much survival options (his ult is pretty good if you're going against a melee hero, due to its low range ), compared to NS's better strength gain and PL's magic resistance, an escape, and spontaneous illusion creations.
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I think he is very strong early game in lane, no need to jungle. He can kill since lvl 2, just jump in, cast refraction, metamorph and attack / walk them to death. I like to get Radiance after Manta to split push with radiance images ^^
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The radiance build is a possibility but there is almost never a reason to make the hero come online so late especially considering the astonishing damage you deal at level 7 already. Treads, drums into manta and demolish heroes and towers alike is the way to go most of the times.
If you, for some reason, have plenty of room to farm, no way to reliably get to their towers to damage them and no need to come online soon, radiance is a good item. (I haven't tried it on the hero but I'd figure it could be a slightly slower but more powerful version of radiance naga siren which got me 13 creeps/minute the few times I've played her this way).
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Getting a radiance does not mean that you sit on your butt for 25 minutes farming up ~3 cores items before you come out of the jungle. A Terrorblade with PT/Yasha and 3k in the bank pushes towers almost as well as one with a finished Manta. And you're damn powerful in small skirmishes as well.
If you for some reason want to actively seek out full scale team fights early on with Terrorblade, then Manta is a very stupid item to get. What really fucks you over in team fights is disables. If you don't want to, or can't get a Radiance, then you should get a BKB, not a Manta. Manta is an awful first item.
And getting a Radiance is not just about the farm. By keeping the lanes pushed out and threatening T3 split pushes or diving illusions behind the enemy to steal their creeps you can greatly delay or even prevent the enemy team from pushing. This is a big deal for a hero that not only scales incredibly well into the late game, but whose team fight ability is entirely reliant on a spell with 140s cooldown.
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I don't think I would ever even consider getting a radiance on tb.
Why would you save up so much gold on a champion that is good at all stages of the game?
He isn't like a naga that does nothing without it. I prefer to get an s&y early to try and help his abysmal hp pool while getting a bit of damage and movespeed.
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i dont even, what? radiance? wth? you starve and need to get 3800 for a +60 damage item, no stats and would die a lot.
For Tb all you need are stat items. get crit / bkb for protection. so simple yet so good.
treads, yasha/SnY, crit/bkb, manta/scadi
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Again my stance is to just get stat items and bkb and just man fight and push high ground. I feel there is no need to play a dragging starving split push game when TB is strong enough to just fight head on early.
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ITT: people claiming bgod is wrong and they know better.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On February 26 2014 18:50 Xypski wrote:
ITT: people claiming bgod is wrong and they know better.
ITT: people claiming that terrorblade is versatile. And he actually is item build wise.
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Match id 518277116
Radiance build TB where i got rad about 4 mins late after having a tough lane to farm in and still had nearly 600cs at 45 mins. After picking it up i was able to farm almost 500 cs over then next 25 mins and this was FAAAR from perfect play i'm sure a pro level player with free farm could easily have hit 700 cs by the 45 min mark since with free farm and getting your rad on time you could easily get 200cs in the first 20 mins.
Terror Blade is great with early fight items as well and you should always build whats optimal for the situation but saying radiance is a bad item on TB is just stupid i would say he is probably the best radiance hero in the game up there with naga due to their ability to completely control that whole map and win games literally 1v5.
Long story short if you think rad is bad you are doing it wrong maybe you don't have the micro/apm/ map awareness i don't know but its a very legit build. You get ahead in items faster then an AM have better map control and are still stronger in the early phases at fighting.
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On February 26 2014 22:48 Oxyoxygen wrote:
Match id 518277116
Radiance build TB where i got rad about 4 mins late after having a tough lane to farm in and still had nearly 600cs at 45 mins. After picking it up i was able to farm almost 500 cs over then next 25 mins and this was FAAAR from perfect play i'm sure a pro level player with free farm could easily have hit 700 cs by the 45 min mark since with free farm and getting your rad on time you could easily get 200cs in the first 20 mins.
Terror Blade is great with early fight items as well and you should always build whats optimal for the situation but saying radiance is a bad item on TB is just stupid i would say he is probably the best radiance hero in the game up there with naga due to their ability to completely control that whole map and win games literally 1v5.
Long story short if you think rad is bad you are doing it wrong maybe you don't have the micro/apm/ map awareness i don't know but its a very legit build. You get ahead in items faster then an AM have better map control and are still stronger in the early phases at fighting.
Your sample size of 1 isn't very convincing, and it's not about the amount of farm you have, or that you had some success with radiance, it's about efficiency/optimization.
(I'm not condemning or advocating either build here, but I think we'd all rather have some actual numbers rather than this endless discussion from both sides).
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On February 26 2014 23:14 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:48 Oxyoxygen wrote:
Match id 518277116
Radiance build TB where i got rad about 4 mins late after having a tough lane to farm in and still had nearly 600cs at 45 mins. After picking it up i was able to farm almost 500 cs over then next 25 mins and this was FAAAR from perfect play i'm sure a pro level player with free farm could easily have hit 700 cs by the 45 min mark since with free farm and getting your rad on time you could easily get 200cs in the first 20 mins.
Terror Blade is great with early fight items as well and you should always build whats optimal for the situation but saying radiance is a bad item on TB is just stupid i would say he is probably the best radiance hero in the game up there with naga due to their ability to completely control that whole map and win games literally 1v5.
Long story short if you think rad is bad you are doing it wrong maybe you don't have the micro/apm/ map awareness i don't know but its a very legit build. You get ahead in items faster then an AM have better map control and are still stronger in the early phases at fighting. Your sample size of 1 isn't very convincing, and it's not about the amount of farm you have, or that you had some success with radiance, it's about efficiency/optimization. (I'm not condemning or advocating either build here, but I think we'd all rather have some actual numbers rather than this endless discussion from both sides).
Im like 12-4 with the build, still a small sample size but consistent results so far for me i think. I have a average gpm of >650 over 16 games with a handful of games around 850-900. If TB gets added to cm and people start to see players practicing it on stream or playing in games i think people will start to see that this is a very common/legit build. If you watch a replay of a player doing this build well you can see the dominating effect it has on a game due to how much control over the map it gives.
Also i'm not saying this is the only build at all for terrorblade i think he is extremely effective with early fight items. You should always ply the situation and he is a versatile hero imo. I'm just saying people that are saying radiance build is bad are just straight up under informed and wrong.
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Radiance is legit, nobody should deny that. I think it's a matter of how the game/your farm is going, though. If you get uncontested farm and can get a <min 20 Treads Yasha Radiance go for it. But for example I wouldn't push for a min 30 Radiance, if your team is losing I think it won't make a difference unlike a min 30 Radiance on Lone Druid/Naga would for example.
The core items are still Manta+Skadi (+situational BKB), getting Radiance is a more expensive Midas that will get you there a little slower while gimping your ability to manfight at min 20 but will surely make your next luxury items (Butterfly most of the times) come faster.
The point is, this hero is powerful when 6 slotted no doubt, but he's also unstoppable if you get a quick Manta Skadi/BKB at the 25min mark unless they have a way to quickly kill the illusions while disabling the main hero.
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I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
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he really isn't that hard to beat. Did any of you play DOta 1 back in the day? The name of the game is CC. Sven's stuns, shadow shaman's shackle/hex, Treeants ult, tidehunter ult.
Also, another great thing is SILENCE on him. When he comes at you with low HP, silence him like with skywrath or silencer or countless other heroes. It revolves around making sure sunder does NOT Go through lol
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
This might be the problem for most of us non-6k people.
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I should practice bot games to get those timings x)
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On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
This sounds about right for radiance timing. I practiced some terrorblade today in ranked, and I had treads,pms,quelling,yasha and radiance around 17 min every game, except one.
The hero seems retardedly strong. I lost a game today because my power went out, but I dont see how I could lose with this hero on my pathetic 5k level if I actually got to play properly.
Radiance split pushing with such strong illusions is insane pressure on every lane from minute 20. It's like you're naga, except you have crazy early game pressure too with meta, but don't have the same godmode escape.
Terrorblade games
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Yeah I was 4 gpm behind my record. Sadly I didn't think of buying a midas and use it in their base with my 10k spare gold. I learned from that mistake in another game, but haven't gotten the same farm again.
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On February 27 2014 10:25 kaztah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
This sounds about right for radiance timing. I practiced some terrorblade today in ranked, and I had treads,pms,quelling,yasha and radiance around 17 min every game, except one. The hero seems retardedly strong. I lost a game today because my power went out, but I dont see how I could lose with this hero on my pathetic 5k level if I actually got to play properly. Radiance split pushing with such strong illusions is insane pressure on every lane from minute 20. It's like you're naga, except you have crazy early game pressure too with meta, but don't have the same godmode escape. Terrorblade games
In my experience it has pretty much always been worth it to go straight travs when doing this build unless im under alot of early pressure. Usually if you finish your Rad <14mins you can generally finish travs a minute or so later. They help so much more for map control and optimizing your farm, also the ability to force a tp reaction split pushing then tp on your team and fight with a number advantage is huge. Have you been going treads/rad or rad/treads?
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On February 27 2014 12:21 Oxyoxygen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 10:25 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
This sounds about right for radiance timing. I practiced some terrorblade today in ranked, and I had treads,pms,quelling,yasha and radiance around 17 min every game, except one. The hero seems retardedly strong. I lost a game today because my power went out, but I dont see how I could lose with this hero on my pathetic 5k level if I actually got to play properly. Radiance split pushing with such strong illusions is insane pressure on every lane from minute 20. It's like you're naga, except you have crazy early game pressure too with meta, but don't have the same godmode escape. Terrorblade games In my experience it has pretty much always been worth it to go straight travs when doing this build unless im under alot of early pressure. Usually if you finish your Rad <14mins you can generally finish travs a minute or so later. They help so much more for map control and optimizing your farm, also the ability to force a tp reaction split pushing then tp on your team and fight with a number advantage is huge. Have you been going treads/rad or rad/treads?
I go the whole treads -> pms - > quelling --> yasha before radiance route, and last hits jungle with main and lane with illusion. I tried a couple radiance rushes, but I feel like the speed up in jungle and general movement is worth investing in.
You can create so many illusions before you run out of mana with some tread switching, so that alone seems to be worth the whole investment.
It also lets you join some early fights if needed with potential tower pushes.
Was a game where I completed a whole drums before radiance too, but that's just because they had a lot of early push power with pugna, so I could potentially join fights if needed.
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On February 27 2014 12:32 kaztah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 12:21 Oxyoxygen wrote:On February 27 2014 10:25 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
This sounds about right for radiance timing. I practiced some terrorblade today in ranked, and I had treads,pms,quelling,yasha and radiance around 17 min every game, except one. The hero seems retardedly strong. I lost a game today because my power went out, but I dont see how I could lose with this hero on my pathetic 5k level if I actually got to play properly. Radiance split pushing with such strong illusions is insane pressure on every lane from minute 20. It's like you're naga, except you have crazy early game pressure too with meta, but don't have the same godmode escape. Terrorblade games In my experience it has pretty much always been worth it to go straight travs when doing this build unless im under alot of early pressure. Usually if you finish your Rad <14mins you can generally finish travs a minute or so later. They help so much more for map control and optimizing your farm, also the ability to force a tp reaction split pushing then tp on your team and fight with a number advantage is huge. Have you been going treads/rad or rad/treads? I go the whole treads -> pms - > quelling --> yasha before radiance route, and last hits jungle with main and lane with illusion. I tried a couple radiance rushes, but I feel like the speed up in jungle and general movement is worth investing in. You can create so many illusions before you run out of mana with some tread switching, so that alone seems to be worth the whole investment. It also lets you join some early fights if needed with potential tower pushes. Was a game where I completed a whole drums before radiance too, but that's just because they had a lot of early push power with pugna, so I could potentially join fights if needed.
Yeah I've tried threads /drums/ slightly later Radiance similar to how you would build a spectre, i actually like i a lot the ability to thread switch when you make illusions is really efficient but i generally fall back on that if i am facing a lot of early pressure. Interesting going the whole yasha before rad what timing are you completing that rad doing that build order?
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On February 27 2014 12:47 Oxyoxygen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 12:32 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 12:21 Oxyoxygen wrote:On February 27 2014 10:25 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
This sounds about right for radiance timing. I practiced some terrorblade today in ranked, and I had treads,pms,quelling,yasha and radiance around 17 min every game, except one. The hero seems retardedly strong. I lost a game today because my power went out, but I dont see how I could lose with this hero on my pathetic 5k level if I actually got to play properly. Radiance split pushing with such strong illusions is insane pressure on every lane from minute 20. It's like you're naga, except you have crazy early game pressure too with meta, but don't have the same godmode escape. Terrorblade games In my experience it has pretty much always been worth it to go straight travs when doing this build unless im under alot of early pressure. Usually if you finish your Rad <14mins you can generally finish travs a minute or so later. They help so much more for map control and optimizing your farm, also the ability to force a tp reaction split pushing then tp on your team and fight with a number advantage is huge. Have you been going treads/rad or rad/treads? I go the whole treads -> pms - > quelling --> yasha before radiance route, and last hits jungle with main and lane with illusion. I tried a couple radiance rushes, but I feel like the speed up in jungle and general movement is worth investing in. You can create so many illusions before you run out of mana with some tread switching, so that alone seems to be worth the whole investment. It also lets you join some early fights if needed with potential tower pushes. Was a game where I completed a whole drums before radiance too, but that's just because they had a lot of early push power with pugna, so I could potentially join fights if needed. Yeah I've tried threads /drums/ slightly later Radiance similar to how you would build a spectre, i actually like i a lot the ability to thread switch when you make illusions is really efficient but i generally fall back on that if i am facing a lot of early pressure. Interesting going the whole yasha before rad what timing are you completing that rad doing that build order?
well without the drums, it was like beesa said. around 16-17 minutes with treads,pms,qb,yasha,radiance.
I think the latest was like 19 minutes, but that was because I had to fight a bit more early, to avoid just straight up losing.
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On February 27 2014 12:47 Oxyoxygen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 12:32 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 12:21 Oxyoxygen wrote:On February 27 2014 10:25 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
This sounds about right for radiance timing. I practiced some terrorblade today in ranked, and I had treads,pms,quelling,yasha and radiance around 17 min every game, except one. The hero seems retardedly strong. I lost a game today because my power went out, but I dont see how I could lose with this hero on my pathetic 5k level if I actually got to play properly. Radiance split pushing with such strong illusions is insane pressure on every lane from minute 20. It's like you're naga, except you have crazy early game pressure too with meta, but don't have the same godmode escape. Terrorblade games In my experience it has pretty much always been worth it to go straight travs when doing this build unless im under alot of early pressure. Usually if you finish your Rad <14mins you can generally finish travs a minute or so later. They help so much more for map control and optimizing your farm, also the ability to force a tp reaction split pushing then tp on your team and fight with a number advantage is huge. Have you been going treads/rad or rad/treads? I go the whole treads -> pms - > quelling --> yasha before radiance route, and last hits jungle with main and lane with illusion. I tried a couple radiance rushes, but I feel like the speed up in jungle and general movement is worth investing in. You can create so many illusions before you run out of mana with some tread switching, so that alone seems to be worth the whole investment. It also lets you join some early fights if needed with potential tower pushes. Was a game where I completed a whole drums before radiance too, but that's just because they had a lot of early push power with pugna, so I could potentially join fights if needed. Yeah I've tried threads /drums/ slightly later Radiance similar to how you would build a spectre, i actually like i a lot the ability to thread switch when you make illusions is really efficient but i generally fall back on that if i am facing a lot of early pressure. Interesting going the whole yasha before rad what timing are you completing that rad doing that build order?
Oh nvm you already posted the timing 17 mins
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On February 27 2014 12:50 kaztah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 12:47 Oxyoxygen wrote:On February 27 2014 12:32 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 12:21 Oxyoxygen wrote:On February 27 2014 10:25 kaztah wrote:On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
This sounds about right for radiance timing. I practiced some terrorblade today in ranked, and I had treads,pms,quelling,yasha and radiance around 17 min every game, except one. The hero seems retardedly strong. I lost a game today because my power went out, but I dont see how I could lose with this hero on my pathetic 5k level if I actually got to play properly. Radiance split pushing with such strong illusions is insane pressure on every lane from minute 20. It's like you're naga, except you have crazy early game pressure too with meta, but don't have the same godmode escape. Terrorblade games In my experience it has pretty much always been worth it to go straight travs when doing this build unless im under alot of early pressure. Usually if you finish your Rad <14mins you can generally finish travs a minute or so later. They help so much more for map control and optimizing your farm, also the ability to force a tp reaction split pushing then tp on your team and fight with a number advantage is huge. Have you been going treads/rad or rad/treads? I go the whole treads -> pms - > quelling --> yasha before radiance route, and last hits jungle with main and lane with illusion. I tried a couple radiance rushes, but I feel like the speed up in jungle and general movement is worth investing in. You can create so many illusions before you run out of mana with some tread switching, so that alone seems to be worth the whole investment. It also lets you join some early fights if needed with potential tower pushes. Was a game where I completed a whole drums before radiance too, but that's just because they had a lot of early push power with pugna, so I could potentially join fights if needed. Yeah I've tried threads /drums/ slightly later Radiance similar to how you would build a spectre, i actually like i a lot the ability to thread switch when you make illusions is really efficient but i generally fall back on that if i am facing a lot of early pressure. Interesting going the whole yasha before rad what timing are you completing that rad doing that build order? well without the drums, it was like beesa said. around 16-17 minutes with treads,pms,qb,yasha,radiance. I think the latest was like 19 minutes, but that was because I had to fight a bit more early, to avoid just straight up losing.
Cool im gonna try this slightly different build order a few games, i don't know if i can give up fast travs though in the long run, i'm so greedy. Travels has always been my fav item :D
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@kaztah I'm curious what your rating is.
I think I've only had complete free farm only once in MM with this hero. And by complete freefarm I mean being able to jungle + lasthit with illusion in lane as soon as I have treads.
The only game I've lost was due to storm leaving at lvl 8 because he lost to an Invoker and the game going on for 40min against an NP.
This is going to be the only hero that I try to grind KDA on.
Even though this hero is probably easier to win with in pubs than AM. I'd probably prefer AM over every other hard carry in a serious match.
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On February 27 2014 05:50 Noya wrote:
I should practice bot games to get those timings x)
I'd say those timings are very hard to achieve in bot games, unless you play against easy bots... Hard bots will always dual lane, constantly harass and try to deny pretty hard. As an anti-mage with a bot support, there's honestly not much you can do when you're contested, anti-mage doesn't have the regen and HP needed to stand up against aggressive hard bots. Obviously you can kill the bots assuming you were lucky and got a decent bot support, but that screws up the timings anyway.
It's completely different to play on a higher level where you will have a competent support who can zone the solo offlaner out until you can last hit safely against him, who can pull your lane back and so on. I just don't think bot games are all that fitting to train hard carries since you will never get the amount of freefarm you need to play them "optimally".
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How do you even get those timings, that's like if the enemy ignores you completely for 20 minutes and team is somehow winning 4vs5.
Or am i wrong
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On February 27 2014 20:42 Andre wrote:
How do you even get those timings, that's like if the enemy ignores you completely for 20 minutes and team is somehow winning 4vs5.
Or am i wrong
hes a 10k beast or something
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On February 27 2014 20:42 Andre wrote:
How do you even get those timings, that's like if the enemy ignores you completely for 20 minutes and team is somehow winning 4vs5.
Or am i wrong
pretty much that with an offlaner that gives himself a couple of times
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On February 27 2014 20:42 Andre wrote:
How do you even get those timings, that's like if the enemy ignores you completely for 20 minutes and team is somehow winning 4vs5.
Or am i wrong
From experience you only need to go 12 minutes without dying on most hard carries, also your team doesn't need to be winning 4v5 you just need to not be losing T3s. You never get completely ignored, but it really doesn't matter for these types of heroes, they're easy to keep a low profile on and always get farm no matter how hard the conditions are (unlike Spectre who needs to salvage the game with ulti ganks killing an enemy fast enough to be able to Reality back to the enemy on your lane to save a TP cost). I was also talking about freefarm timings without including kills. But if you're a Dire safelane AM with like 2 kills or a firstblood + freefarm (against one offlaner or none), you can easily have 6 slots by 25minutes, not sure about Radiant AM, if you are getting dual/tri - laned and other lanes are having issues then if you dont get your fury by 17min you pretty much lose. It was so much easier in pre-6.79 because you could just go Tranquils+RoH as your first items.
The 9 years I played Dota for, I've played a hardcarry in 90% of my games.
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On February 27 2014 14:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
@kaztah I'm curious what your rating is.
I think I've only had complete free farm only once in MM with this hero. And by complete freefarm I mean being able to jungle + lasthit with illusion in lane as soon as I have treads.
The only game I've lost was due to storm leaving at lvl 8 because he lost to an Invoker and the game going on for 40min against an NP.
This is going to be the only hero that I try to grind KDA on.
Even though this hero is probably easier to win with in pubs than AM. I'd probably prefer AM over every other hard carry in a serious match.
I'm just a lowly barely 5k rated player, but considering we have about 70% winrate in ranked so far, probably give or take a couple hundred points from that, depending on how win streaks swings. I always stack with irl friends and havent' played a single solo game though, so kinda hard to tell.
The only game I lost so far was the one my power went off 30ish minutes into the game, and by then I had twice the networth of everyone in the game. Kinda sad really.
I usually wander into the jungle went I'm about halfway with my yasha, but I often missed lasthits with illusion in the lane. I'm pretty awful still at this hero and game in general, so that's to be expected though.
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On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
You get those timings in solo queue? what a god
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
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On February 28 2014 00:35 Firebolt145 wrote:
He actually does.
Ok, I havent played against him soloqueueing out of ~8 games and a quick dotabuff skim didnt show any soloqueue games, better ?
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On February 21 2014 23:00 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 22:25 Noya wrote:On February 21 2014 20:12 ChunderBoy wrote:
daily reminder that if ure buying radiance on TB, then u might as well play Naga Fixed it for you Now seriously, why Radiance when you can get all T2s with just Manta and go highground after Manta Skadi at 25minutes? I see Radiance on TB as a "my team wont be able to take fights early anyway"/"we just need to stall until lategame and we win". In that case I get it, but apart from helping you get 6 slotted sooner, I don't like the synergy. Both the 60% damage illusions and 550 Range 80base damage aspects of the hero doesn't synergize with the item. radiance on TB is way more important than radiance on Naga, if u fail to see that try figuring out why. implying teamfighting or fighting in general is in any way favourable ever if u have a hardcarry especially terrorblade. radiance makes u take control of the whole map, u literally decide for the enemy when they push and when they dont. manta first on tb is such a fucking joke. you can literally have pms quelling treads yasha rad at ~16min. if freefarming you shud be hitting more than 10cs by 10min. you also dont need a manta to take a T2 nor do u need a team with u to do so, constant pressure everywhere gives u so much space to do it freely.
This only works if you're team is competent enough to be able to fight for about 15-16 minutes without you, which isn't always possible if you aren't stacking. For the vast majority of players, going an early game stats = > bkb build is alot safer and alot stronger since you'll probably be forced to fight anyways.
Also, your radiance timings are under the assumption you aren't laning against some lame ass lane that involves Lich/Clockwork, or some other nonsensical nuking/harassing lane. TB is strong in lane vs heroes that rely on escapes/phys harassment like WR/Mirana, but gets shit on by offensive tri-lanes and strong dual nuking lanes.
That being said, TB is fucking OP as hell in pubs because almost no one offensive tri-lanes or dual lanes with heavy stuns/nukes. Everyone seems to think it's ok to lane Mirana/WR/Puck/etc. against TB, then they wonder how TB got a 30 minute BoT/Skadi/Manta/Radiance.
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Blink Dagger is a totally legit item on Terrorblade if you're not going Radiance. You can use it similarly to how Drow and Clinkz uses it, as well as to pull Sunder shenanigans.
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On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
wow these timings are very realistic, especially on a pub game
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On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
Rather than telling us how bad we suck because we can't hit 80+ last hits w/in 10 minutes, could you post a 5 minute video to youtube showing us how to do so? I, for one, would love to improve my item timings with safe-lane hard carries...
Sure, I could watch some replays, but I've gotta be honest bro - nobody has hit the numbers you're describing in any of the 1st page TB games I have watched. Not saying you can't do it, just saying that farming this fast must rely on perfect conditions.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
I'm nowhere near as good as Beesa but I've managed to hit a 17 minute Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance. Admittedly it was almost untouched free farm, but no kills/towers.
One thing you should remember is that if you go 1-4-1-1 it's pretty easy to last hit with an illusion and just Treads/PMS/Quelling while you attack move through the jungle.
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On March 07 2014 03:43 Firebolt145 wrote:
I'm nowhere near as good as Beesa but I've managed to hit a 17 minute Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance. Admittedly it was almost untouched free farm, but no kills/towers.
One thing you should remember is that if you go 1-4-1-1 it's pretty easy to last hit with an illusion and just Treads/PMS/Quelling while you attack move through the jungle.
These timings are so impressive. i saw RTZ play TB yesterday on the safelane, with freefarm, two towerkills, without this junglingtechnique and he didnt got near these timings. So, it isnt wierd that mere mortals dont seem to reach these timings without this dualfarm technique
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On March 07 2014 03:37 Rybka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
Rather than telling us how bad we suck because we can't hit 80+ last hits w/in 10 minutes, could you post a 5 minute video to youtube showing us how to do so? I, for one, would love to improve my item timings with safe-lane hard carries... Sure, I could watch some replays, but I've gotta be honest bro - nobody has hit the numbers you're describing in any of the 1st page TB games I have watched. Not saying you can't do it, just saying that farming this fast must rely on perfect conditions.
why don't you watch beesa's own replays?
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I'm inclined to think that if you get 17minutes of complete free farm with TB you already won no matter if you go for Radiance or faster Manta Skadi/BKB. What would be interesting to discuss is if a 25min+ pub Radiance is worth it on this hero or not (considering you still have your basic Treads QB Yasha early core).
Also is Aquila a decent item after the 3agi buff?
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On March 07 2014 05:19 Noya wrote:
I'm inclined to think that if you get 17minutes of complete free farm with TB you already won no matter if you go for Radiance or faster Manta Skadi/BKB. What would be interesting to discuss is if a 25min+ pub Radiance is worth it on this hero or not (considering you still have your basic Treads QB Yasha early core).
Also is Aquila a decent item after the 3agi buff?
In my experience no matter which hero i play, if my radiance is done after 20/21 minutes i will mostly loose 80% of the matches, if radiance is completed before 20/21 minutes i win more then i loose. Dont forget your team plays 4v5 until you got some form of mana, movementspeed and this device. Radiance is nice early but every minute its late the impact diminishes quite a bit.
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On March 07 2014 05:19 Noya wrote:
I'm inclined to think that if you get 17minutes of complete free farm with TB you already won no matter if you go for Radiance or faster Manta Skadi/BKB. What would be interesting to discuss is if a 25min+ pub Radiance is worth it on this hero or not (considering you still have your basic Treads QB Yasha early core).
Also is Aquila a decent item after the 3agi buff?
I've won unwinnable games with a super late (25 mins~) radiance. I think there are some times where you can just splitpush your way to victory with a late radiance. Depends, obviously.
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It's all game state, and what will be happening in the five to ten minutes after your Radiance is done.
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hero's like a morphling and naga siren combined into one
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On March 07 2014 03:37 Rybka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 04:10 ChunderBoy wrote:
I feel like you guys don't have a clue about item timings for hard carries. Or maybe you just die a lot or miss lasthits.
Terrorblade timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Yasha/Radiance ~ 16min.
+Manta/+Skadi ~ 25min
+Butterfly/+(Eblade or Satanic or BKB or another Butterfly) ~ 33min
You can get a BKB much earlier if you have to. Also if you are going for Manta first builds, I don't see much point in finishing a Manta instead of getting Yasha+BKB.
Antimage timings are:
Quelling/PMS/Treads/Battlefury/Vlads ~ 14-17min
+Manta ~ 20-22min
+Butterfly/Abyssal ~ 30min
Morphling timings are:
Aquila/Treads/Bottle/Stick/Linkens ~ 14~20min
+Eblade ~ < 25min
Timings for items don't matter as much for Morph because he is way more about execution than farming. This hero cannot win with pure farm.
PL has more variance with timings depending on how well enemies can AOE his illusions that farm in lane. But PL needs to be 5 or 6 slotted in order to win a game and you need to make sure you're farmed enough at < 37min as an upper bound.
Note: Getting radiance does not mean you can't fight... sending a TB illusion to a fight for radiance burn is enough to net you some kills, and its not like there is anything stopping you from contributing with your real hero.
Rather than telling us how bad we suck because we can't hit 80+ last hits w/in 10 minutes, could you post a 5 minute video to youtube showing us how to do so? I, for one, would love to improve my item timings with safe-lane hard carries... Sure, I could watch some replays, but I've gotta be honest bro - nobody has hit the numbers you're describing in any of the 1st page TB games I have watched. Not saying you can't do it, just saying that farming this fast must rely on perfect conditions.
Lots of people miss last hits under towers for instance because they don't know how to properly judge their own base damage. You shouldn't miss that many last hits under the tower, maybe 4-5 within a few minutes at most. Also, lots of carries tend to be dumb and accidentally push their wave into the opposing tower. For the most part, it's actually better to just stay farming rather than going for kills, as going for a kill most of the time doesn't pay off. It screws up lane control, and lets the other person get back into the lane sometimes simply because of this.
Perfect CS in 10 minutes is something like 80ish to 90 I think (don't know the math off the top of my head). If you're not being heavily contested as TB this should be relatively easy.
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The problem is that in solo queue the chances of getting complete uncontested farm is pretty low. The issue with dual farming the jungle and the lane is that when you're focusing on last hitting with your illusion you end up taking a lot of damage as your hero and are susceptible to ganks. You face a fair amount of 2v2 lanes in pubs and when your metamorphis is on cd your ability to contest for last hits and denies is pretty subpar because of how easy it is to burst him down
I also agree that generally in any game where you can get the quelling pms treads yasha radiance build in 17 minutes, you could probably also go shadowblade dagon run around sundering people and still win. Is it strong? yes. Does it allow ridiculous farm? yes. Could you have won by just going straight to manta bkb and pushing to win? Definitely. Getting that level of free farm usually means that your team is straight up winning 4v5 anyways
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On March 07 2014 22:19 KOFgokuon wrote:
The problem is that in solo queue the chances of getting complete uncontested farm is pretty low. The issue with dual farming the jungle and the lane is that when you're focusing on last hitting with your illusion you end up taking a lot of damage as your hero and are susceptible to ganks. You face a fair amount of 2v2 lanes in pubs and when your metamorphis is on cd your ability to contest for last hits and denies is pretty subpar because of how easy it is to burst him down
I also agree that generally in any game where you can get the quelling pms treads yasha radiance build in 17 minutes, you could probably also go shadowblade dagon run around sundering people and still win. Is it strong? yes. Does it allow ridiculous farm? yes. Could you have won by just going straight to manta bkb and pushing to win? Definitely. Getting that level of free farm usually means that your team is straight up winning 4v5 anyways
theres a lot of games u can win with hardcarry were ur team is completely feeding and u are also under pressure with like 50cs at 10min. it boils down to how good u are at understanding how the map works and how much of a low profile you can keep and how much advantage no matter how small you can squeeze out of everything. good players sway the game in their favour bit by bit.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Went into an empty game with TB to see how quick I could get PMS/Quelling/Treads/Yasha/Radiance with Beesa as honorary coach.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2vtpdXO.jpg)
That was the only tower taken. I missed at least 20-30 last hits on the way which is ~1200 gold, meaning I could've got it a lot earlier. Yes you could say that in a real game you'd be pressured into losing more last hits, but in a real game you'd also easily get more tower gold + kills on the offlaner/whatever thanks to metamorphosis being ridiculous.
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Should make it a competition to see who can get it the fastest with a TL no prize attached. Only stipulation is no tower kills because that gives all of the tower gold (I assume)
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
No, it's split as per normal, even if you're the only player in the game. Also pre tower kill I was at 1250 gold already so only needed 2 more creeps to get it.
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On March 07 2014 23:36 Laurens wrote:
WTB some Beesa coaching
I know right?! LOL
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
I say coaching as a joke. He wasn't really giving me any special tips or secrets lol.
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Seems to be pretty close to the timings I got in the only two games I got replays not expired on.
http://imgur.com/a/BE7YI
game1: 2 towers down, 1 kill
game2: 1 tower down, 0 kills.
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nice one, what hud is that by the way?
also, at what point do you rotate your main hero to the jungle while leaving illusion to lane to last hit? after treads? yasha?
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On March 08 2014 12:37 iv~nk~j wrote:
also, at what point do you rotate your main hero to the jungle while leaving illusion to lane to last hit? after treads? yasha?
On February 27 2014 22:57 kaztah wrote:
I usually wander into the jungle went I'm about halfway with my yasha, but I often missed lasthits with illusion in the lane.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
In my Radiant attempt I went in to do the easy + medium camp once I had Treads, doing the hard as well once I had Yasha. If you're Dire you may need to wait longer since you only have an easy + hard camp near to the lane.
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Do you do this every game guys? I have played around 20ish games with TB in dota2 (+ numerous in D1 but doesn't count) and found it very hard to be able to lasthit with illusion in lane while jungling; not because of the dmg but bcs someone tends to linger in the lane and burst the illusion from time to time. It's also pretty common that the opposing team wants to push your T1 and if they are ahead 2-5mins later the T2 top, making you unable to get more than 1-2 cs per illusion in lane. In these kind of games I don't go for radiance, but do you have some secret tech to make it work/farm more efficiently?
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get a cs, back the illusion, rinse and repeat
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On March 22 2014 19:06 Mosoball wrote:
Do you do this every game guys? I have played around 20ish games with TB in dota2 (+ numerous in D1 but doesn't count) and found it very hard to be able to lasthit with illusion in lane while jungling; not because of the dmg but bcs someone tends to linger in the lane and burst the illusion from time to time. It's also pretty common that the opposing team wants to push your T1 and if they are ahead 2-5mins later the T2 top, making you unable to get more than 1-2 cs per illusion in lane. In these kind of games I don't go for radiance, but do you have some secret tech to make it work/farm more efficiently?
If they push your T1 you can freeze the lane outside your T2 for ridiculous farm (closer to more jungle camps, and they can't contest your illusion). If they push your T2 and you don't want to fight you switch to the other side of the map. Also, 2 cs per illusion + full jungle is still better than a free farm lane.
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this hero is so good, i have problem surviving the mid game though when people come and pressure my lane. I can't do anything and I would die and my meta would be on cooldown for so long and it's so annoying. How do you play in this situation?
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ok i changed my mind. i finally get the chance to play this hero and then i am shocked. Since when tb became so strong lol that backswing and attackspeed is so damn good. 'The 'drawback' is just that you need to decided whether to use metamorph for taking a tower (yes, 1 metamorph 1 tower, if they didnt try to stop you in 20 seconds) or save it for helping teamfight, the cd of metamorph is (balancedly) long enough.
You can even solo kill a melee on your lane (some hero like BeastM) with that slow, lvl1 of Q is all you need (pound him down with metamorph)>_> Midas would be nice and SnY+Crit is my core build.
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Midas is useless IMO, faster Yasha probably gives you more GPM/XPM just like on PL.
You can even take the 2 enemy short lane towers during rank 4 Meta duration with only Treads+Yasha if they are distracted/stupid.
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Just tried radi after yasha for the first time. It's unbelievable how ridic TB becomes once he farms a fast radi, it's like having 3 midases, on top of the unparalleled pushing power. 6 sloted around 35 minute mark lol.
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I must have bad timing with when I queue for games. The times I had TB my lane got heavily contested, usually double offlanes, blocked jungle and ganks heading to my lane rather than the other lanes.
Pretty standard for pub, but it lead to me preferring Metamorph first for the 80 bonus damage, because illusions die fast against any form of nukes.
Incidentally Manta Style is like the win the game now item. Having 3-4 illusions in metamorphed form puts out so much damage. Maybe I will get some space to jungle and buy radiance next time I play TB.
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On April 01 2014 13:17 Mataza wrote:
Incidentally Manta Style is like the win the game now item. Having 3-4 illusions in metamorphed form puts out so much damage.
Agreed, Terrorblade's damage output is insane. I've only played him a handful of times but in the one game where I didn't flat out outcarry the other team (I got ganked about five times in ten minutes, they were pretty determined to keep me down) I was still absolutely annihilating towers after twenty minutes with hardly any farm.
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Just tried out the radiance build...
Even at my crap tier 3k rating, no free farm, and dying once, was able to get treads,pms,qb,yasha,radiance at ~21 min. Proceeded to wreck enemy team.
Dirty, dirty build...
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Is Radiance Terrorblade inferior to Radiance Naga in every conceivable way?
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Well, with terrorblade you have 100% uptime of 2 illusions vs naga who has 75% uptime of 3 illusions, terrorblade illusions are stronger, naga illusions get rip tide, terrorblade illusions can be ranged with 120 base damage bonus, i've farmed the radiance much faster on TB than on naga (with more buildup as well) so that has to mean something too. unsure
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If your aim is to spread radiance aura across the map, then Naga is kind of superior. She gets 3 at once so you can do all the micro clicking at once and not worry as much for 40 seconds. It also costs her less mana over time and per illusion(but then again riptide costs mana)
TB is very much superior in teamfights though, unless your team is coordinated enough to capitalize on song of the siren for positioning. Even with perfect usage of sleep, TB might still be better.
To the poster above, the damage bonus is 80. Still a lot, but 120 would really push it.
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I'm not sure how I see TB farming quicker than Naga with Riptide? I haven't seen RTZ play TB but his Naga gets like 1.2k GPM all the time.
And regarding teamfights, TB has higher potential damage but I'm not sure that the damage is higher value than Song + BKB-piercing disable + AoE -armor nuke.
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TB develops into a tower meatgrinder. Metamorph and manta gives you 4 illusions with really high damage output. It's terrifying.
Obviously Naga has more utility in her skillset.
I really have to watch more Arteezy then.
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On April 03 2014 23:44 Mataza wrote:
TB develops into a tower meatgrinder. Metamorph and manta gives you 4 illusions with really high damage output. It's terrifying.
Obviously Naga has more utility in her skillset.
I really have to watch more Arteezy then.
I'll give you that TB does wreck towers in Metamorphosis way faster than Naga could.
And in pubs that's great but I wonder if a TB using Meta to take towers would be exploited in competitive. As in, give up a tower to Meta, take a teamfight, win, take two towers.
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On April 03 2014 23:47 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 23:44 Mataza wrote:
TB develops into a tower meatgrinder. Metamorph and manta gives you 4 illusions with really high damage output. It's terrifying.
Obviously Naga has more utility in her skillset.
I really have to watch more Arteezy then. I'll give you that TB does wreck towers in Metamorphosis way faster than Naga could. And in pubs that's great but I wonder if a TB using Meta to take towers would be exploited in competitive. As in, give up a tower to Meta, take a teamfight, win, take two towers.
Uh...
Your earlier posts had better criticisms.
TB using his illusions to kill towers is a splitpushing tactic or better used just after teamfights. In what they do in teamfights Naga and TB are very different either way
TB has very low hp and can be bursted down much more easily than Naga.
Naga on the other hand is awful at damaging towers and can mainly kill creep waves when she splitpushes.
I get the feeling you want to hear that Naga is better than TB at everything which is as stupid a statement as TB is better than Naga at everything. They do different things and the things that both do they do differently as well. Aside from microing radiance illusions.
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On April 03 2014 23:55 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2014 23:47 hariooo wrote:On April 03 2014 23:44 Mataza wrote:
TB develops into a tower meatgrinder. Metamorph and manta gives you 4 illusions with really high damage output. It's terrifying.
Obviously Naga has more utility in her skillset.
I really have to watch more Arteezy then. I'll give you that TB does wreck towers in Metamorphosis way faster than Naga could. And in pubs that's great but I wonder if a TB using Meta to take towers would be exploited in competitive. As in, give up a tower to Meta, take a teamfight, win, take two towers. Uh... Your earlier posts had better criticisms. TB using his illusions to kill towers is a splitpushing tactic or better used just after teamfights. In what they do in teamfights Naga and TB are very different either way TB has very low hp and can be bursted down much more easily than Naga. Naga on the other hand is awful at damaging towers and can mainly kill creep waves when she splitpushes. I get the feeling you want to hear that Naga is better than TB at everything which is as stupid a statement as TB is better than Naga at everything. They do different things and the things that both do they do differently as well. Aside from microing radiance illusions.
I get the feeling that you're a little uptight. Relax.
TB might be better at some things than Naga I just don't think that's true for Radiance. It's the same reason there's not much reason to run PL Radiance over Naga. The overall game strategy is the same in both cases except Naga is always going to have more options and flexibility in the course of a game.
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Well On April 03 2014 23:20 Mataza wrote:
If your aim is to spread radiance aura across the map, then Naga is kind of superior.
All I saw is you trying to show weaknesses of TB compared to Naga that are completely unrelated to the fact that Naga is arguably the better radiance bearer. That's why I made that post.
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On the other side, Naga is harder to get a radiance on and not be down 4+ towers.
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I tried Radiance on both TB and Naga at ~3.5k mmr, (granted, apparently 3.5k is like nothing) and I much prefer Naga to TB as a radiance carrier. Your ultimate as Naga is a get-out-of-jail-free card, as well as good initiation (situationally, of course), and you have more illusions which give you more vision, allowing you to be more aggressive with them and your own positioning without being caught or ganked by the enemy team. There is downtime on the illusions compared to TB, but I don't find that a huge problem.
If I have money for a Radiance on TB and I go for it, I always find myself wishing I had gone for a Skadi instead, as it gives me much more survivability in fights, despite Radiance allowing me to farm more effectively. I consistently find myself bursted down in fights if I chose to go for Radiance in that game, while the huge pool of HP I get with a Skadi gives me time to cast my ultimate on a desirable target.
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you shouldn't be going to fights with radiance as either naga or tb
just keep sending your illusions in until they leave your towers alone
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I still don't understand why people like to rice creeps and farm for 6 slots when you can just man fight early on and win games with an alternative build. The strength of meta lies in early mid game where it is relatively very strong, while late game it has lesser significance.
I get the rationale of doing so with naga because the alternative builds are not so strong early on. Can't say the same for tb.
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On April 04 2014 13:31 DucK- wrote:
I still don't understand why people like to rice creeps and farm for 6 slots when you can just man fight early on and win games with an alternative build. The strength of meta lies in early mid game where it is relatively very strong, while late game it has lesser significance.
I get the rationale of doing so with naga because the alternative builds are not so strong early on. Can't say the same for tb.
Gonna chime in here just to say that in pubs, you generally don't rely on your teammates. So Beesa's radiance rush would be better since you're aiming for the point in time you can just 1v5. But in a coordinated game like a competitive match, you can diversify to early fighting and killing since you're so strong at it, and your team can just help control the other heroes. I'd think that if you draft for lategame with scaling supports, you go radiance. If you plan to bruteforce things down through teamfighting and tower killer, then I'm inclined to favor the early yasha/manta/skadi. But then again, if you have good farm, why not radiance rush and just get all you need in 5 mins post-radiance?
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Except you rely on your teammates to defend your towers 4v5 while you're afk the whole game. Like it or not, dota is a team game and there's no way to play it 1v5.
If you win by 6 slot ricing, your team won that game for you.
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On April 04 2014 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
Except you rely on your teammates to defend your towers 4v5 while you're afk the whole game. Like it or not, dota is a team game and there's no way to play it 1v5.
If you win by 6 slot ricing, your team won that game for you.
lol,
and on tb u can do w/e build according to game and lineups...
oddly enough my highest gpm was on a 3 butterflies eblade skadi manta tb in ranked.
radiance builds have like a higher mean lower variance for average gpms/success
drums manta or w/e most ppl do are prolly lower mean higher variacnce.
all in all i think manta first big item on tb is absolutely retarded and u shud go yasha then skadi then manta if ure going down that route
it also only takes 3min to get a skadi from the point u get radiance
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i believe that a well played am can have 100% winrate against naga/morph/tb (not in cm)
in competitive. just like he did in ti2. and im gonna say that most AMs (pros too), since forever have been rly inefficient with their builds and farming speed pre fury, some are even bad after fury.
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On April 04 2014 18:51 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2014 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
Except you rely on your teammates to defend your towers 4v5 while you're afk the whole game. Like it or not, dota is a team game and there's no way to play it 1v5.
If you win by 6 slot ricing, your team won that game for you. lol, and on tb u can do w/e build according to game and lineups... oddly enough my highest gpm was on a 3 butterflies eblade skadi manta tb in ranked. radiance builds have like a higher mean lower variance for average gpms/success drums manta or w/e most ppl do are prolly lower mean higher variacnce. all in all i think manta first big item on tb is absolutely retarded and u shud go yasha then skadi then manta if ure going down that route it also only takes 3min to get a skadi from the point u get radiance
Could you explain why you think Yasha -> Skadi -> Manta beats Yasha -> Manta -> Skadi?
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So lately (this week) I've been aboard the terrorblade train. I'm a primarily hard carry player around the ~4600 MMR level.
I also wonder why building a full Skadi before finishing Manta would be good. I feel very weak 5 manning before Manta and it gives your team a lot of push power. Now obviously you don't HAVE to 5 man but it also improves your split push a lot being able to tear down towers with your ridiculous illusions. Now building a full skadi costs more than 2000g more than finishing manta, gives approximately the same ratio of stats per cost, so the real comparison is between the slow effect (and maybe the 200hp/mana) and the extra illusions. To me the extra illusions are really great on the hero for both split pushing and sieging base, as well as the added benefit of dispelling debuffs. So I guess my question is what does Skadi offer that is so preferable to Manta that you wouldn't just finish the Manta.
Anyway, my usual build is Midas / PMS -> Treads -> Manta -> Skadi -> Butterfly -> whatever. I have tried going BKB in some situations but basically every time I have hated the item on him (although I can see why it would be good/necessary in some scenarios). I have not tried Radiance but honestly every time I've seen a Radiance TB in a pub I've felt like I would be much more scared if he went for another item. The hero can farm so fast once you finish Manta/Skadi (and quite fast even before that) that I honestly don't feel like Radiance is necessary as a farm booster, and it's really quite mediocre on the hero for anything other than farming (you tend not to stand in the middle of fights unless initiated on [although you can move illusions in] and the +damage does not apply to illusions). While Midas accelerates your big timing with Manta+Skadi and really barely slows down your Manta timing anyway. I'm not biased against Radiance or anything, I'm a HUGE Radiance Naga fan, but I just don't feel the same necessity/synergy with TB since he has a much stronger teamfight presence with just 1-2 big items compared to Naga, and his split push potential without Radiance is still very strong (both of which are not really true about Naga until very late in the game unless you go Radiance).
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On April 04 2014 22:06 Laurens wrote:Could you explain why you think Yasha -> Skadi -> Manta beats Yasha -> Manta -> Skadi?
More Agi, tankiness and a painfully strong slow that you're bound to kill a lot of people during metamorphosis I'd guess. In my experience the early Yasha outside of farming actually allows you to chase up and use the initial Q on a lot of enemy heroes. Correct me if I'm wrong but often you'd not care about leveling Q past level 1 for these builds and people prefer the stats if they're ahead of enemy right-clickers so I think you can't rely on Q all the time to shut someone down.
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On April 05 2014 00:11 Surprise.820 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2014 22:06 Laurens wrote:Could you explain why you think Yasha -> Skadi -> Manta beats Yasha -> Manta -> Skadi? More Agi, tankiness and a painfully strong slow that you're bound to kill a lot of people during metamorphosis I'd guess. In my experience the early Yasha outside of farming actually allows you to chase up and use the initial Q on a lot of enemy heroes. Correct me if I'm wrong but often you'd not care about leveling Q past level 1 for these builds and people prefer the stats if they're ahead of enemy right-clickers so I think you can't rely on Q all the time to shut someone down.
I get why Skadi is good.
It's just that you go:
1) Yasha
2) Ultimate orb
And then you can either:
a) use the next 900 gold and have a completed manta and all its benefits
b) farm an additional 3300 gold to complete the Skadi and have those benefits.
I would think path a) is the better option here, and I'm just curious why Beesa is so adamant about going Skadi first.
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Its still a miracle to me how beesa can defend the radiance build so valiantly even though the vast majority of people in high rated pubs (TB is not in CM, so this is the only basis) do not go for radiance. Of course you could argue that "in theory" blablaba.... but apparently noone really builds radiance. The fact that noone of the famous "tb abusers" go for radi kinda solidifies the point that in a pub, radiance is usually not the right itemchoice.
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Well I really dislike to use high rated pubs or competitive games as a benchmark. I think ember spirit skill build has shown how its not a good benchmark. When I and may others were explaining the merits of sof chains, many just dismissed it because 'pros' don't use the build. What has happened now?
I think its more important to understand the rationale and theory behind the build. Radiance is a legit build as you can do mass farm shenanigans similar to a naga. You can also get towers easily if uncontested. If contested, a manta tb cannot really push down the tower anyway.
The reasons why I personally do not like radiance builds is mainly
1) you do not have an song. Naga's skill set is much superior for this purpose. Arguably, the safety aspect in song is what makes this build so powerful. Its just so difficult to stop.
2) your skill set makes you a monster man fighting DPS hero early on if you build him that way. If you go for radiance, you essentially keep farming till you are close to full slot late game. I think its a waste not to utilise the strengths of meta early on. Late game its main relevance is just to make you a range hero. +damage is not consequential.
Unlike ember where I believe sof chain is way stronger than guard, I think radiance route is strong in its own regard. I think its 2 different styles of play that can be switched around depending on how you want the draft to go.
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On April 05 2014 01:12 gaymon wrote:
Its still a miracle to me how beesa can defend the radiance build so valiantly even though the vast majority of people in high rated pubs (TB is not in CM, so this is the only basis) do not go for radiance. Of course you could argue that "in theory" blablaba.... but apparently noone really builds radiance. The fact that noone of the famous "tb abusers" go for radi kinda solidifies the point that in a pub, radiance is usually not the right itemchoice.
Maybe his playstyle and skill on TB is on a higher level (no joke). Ive read somewhere in this thread about how someone on TL farms, which is quite different from pubstreamers like dendi's and singsings, much more effective. He put TB in jungle and a illusion to farm the lane. Ofcourse this requires more skill then just farming a lane.
He got a radiance in the time i normally get ma boots and a wand if im lucky. If you see your pubstars farming jungle and lane during the laningstage at the same time, then u could be right. But for now, beesa could be right about most statements. That guy even backed up his farmingskills with dotabuff profile(=replays), u can check his builds there.
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IMO I go radiance only when I have uncontested freefarm, which is very rare but does happen, but generally I will go for treads PMS manta because the buildup is so very nice. I also really can't see ever going skadi before Manta, manta is more dps, dispels stuff on use, confuses the enemy, and is better for farming. All skadi does is give you a slow and a little more hp, which is much more useful later on
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On April 05 2014 02:02 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 01:12 gaymon wrote:
Its still a miracle to me how beesa can defend the radiance build so valiantly even though the vast majority of people in high rated pubs (TB is not in CM, so this is the only basis) do not go for radiance. Of course you could argue that "in theory" blablaba.... but apparently noone really builds radiance. The fact that noone of the famous "tb abusers" go for radi kinda solidifies the point that in a pub, radiance is usually not the right itemchoice. Maybe his playstyle and skill on TB is on a higher level (no joke). Ive read somewhere in this thread about how someone on TL farms, which is quite different from pubstreamers like dendi's and singsings, much more effective. He put TB in jungle and a illusion to farm the lane. Ofcourse this requires more skill then just farming a lane. He got a radiance in the time i normally get ma boots and a wand if im lucky. If you see your pubstars farming jungle and lane during the laningstage at the same time, then u could be right. But for now, beesa could be right about most statements. That guy even backed up his farmingskills with dotabuff profile(=replays), u can check his builds there.
The guy you are referring to is Beesa :D. Chunderboy = Beesa.
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On April 05 2014 02:42 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 02:02 govie wrote:On April 05 2014 01:12 gaymon wrote:
Its still a miracle to me how beesa can defend the radiance build so valiantly even though the vast majority of people in high rated pubs (TB is not in CM, so this is the only basis) do not go for radiance. Of course you could argue that "in theory" blablaba.... but apparently noone really builds radiance. The fact that noone of the famous "tb abusers" go for radi kinda solidifies the point that in a pub, radiance is usually not the right itemchoice. Maybe his playstyle and skill on TB is on a higher level (no joke). Ive read somewhere in this thread about how someone on TL farms, which is quite different from pubstreamers like dendi's and singsings, much more effective. He put TB in jungle and a illusion to farm the lane. Ofcourse this requires more skill then just farming a lane. He got a radiance in the time i normally get ma boots and a wand if im lucky. If you see your pubstars farming jungle and lane during the laningstage at the same time, then u could be right. But for now, beesa could be right about most statements. That guy even backed up his farmingskills with dotabuff profile(=replays), u can check his builds there. The guy you are referring to is Beesa :D. Chunderboy = Beesa.
I know but i was too lazy to verify
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On April 05 2014 00:42 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 00:11 Surprise.820 wrote:On April 04 2014 22:06 Laurens wrote:Could you explain why you think Yasha -> Skadi -> Manta beats Yasha -> Manta -> Skadi? More Agi, tankiness and a painfully strong slow that you're bound to kill a lot of people during metamorphosis I'd guess. In my experience the early Yasha outside of farming actually allows you to chase up and use the initial Q on a lot of enemy heroes. Correct me if I'm wrong but often you'd not care about leveling Q past level 1 for these builds and people prefer the stats if they're ahead of enemy right-clickers so I think you can't rely on Q all the time to shut someone down. I get why Skadi is good. It's just that you go: 1) Yasha 2) Ultimate orb And then you can either: a) use the next 900 gold and have a completed manta and all its benefits b) farm an additional 3300 gold to complete the Skadi and have those benefits. I would think path a) is the better option here, and I'm just curious why Beesa is so adamant about going Skadi first.
It's situational depending on the game obviously, but on a more tactical level it is based on farming ability. If you feel that you can farm 3300 fairly safely and/or quickly then why not go for skadi? If you can farm that much then 900 is pretty effortless to farm. Chunder is apparently a farming monster so why wouldn't he just go for the more expensive/harder thing to build first if he has the opporturnity?
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On April 05 2014 05:25 Vikeif wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 00:42 Laurens wrote:On April 05 2014 00:11 Surprise.820 wrote:On April 04 2014 22:06 Laurens wrote:Could you explain why you think Yasha -> Skadi -> Manta beats Yasha -> Manta -> Skadi? More Agi, tankiness and a painfully strong slow that you're bound to kill a lot of people during metamorphosis I'd guess. In my experience the early Yasha outside of farming actually allows you to chase up and use the initial Q on a lot of enemy heroes. Correct me if I'm wrong but often you'd not care about leveling Q past level 1 for these builds and people prefer the stats if they're ahead of enemy right-clickers so I think you can't rely on Q all the time to shut someone down. I get why Skadi is good. It's just that you go: 1) Yasha 2) Ultimate orb And then you can either: a) use the next 900 gold and have a completed manta and all its benefits b) farm an additional 3300 gold to complete the Skadi and have those benefits. I would think path a) is the better option here, and I'm just curious why Beesa is so adamant about going Skadi first. It's situational depending on the game obviously, but on a more tactical level it is based on farming ability. If you feel that you can farm 3300 fairly safely and/or quickly then why not go for skadi? If you can farm that much then 900 is pretty effortless to farm. Chunder is apparently a farming monster so why wouldn't he just go for the more expensive/harder thing to build first if he has the opporturnity?
Because Manta actually has a timing where it's a strong item for taking all the outer towers?
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Beesa also builds refresher second on Spectre, so there's that.
But yeah radiance TB is really strong.
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I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight.
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On April 05 2014 16:52 rob.au wrote:
I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight.
I agree with this post. Manta is generally a terrible first item to get.
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On April 05 2014 16:52 rob.au wrote:
I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight.
^
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treads
mask
yasha/hotd
manta
skadi+ butterfly +satanic depending on le game
pew pew
how I always played this bad boy in Dota1
Then start replacing items with rapiers, not sure which ones are best?
apem ftw xD They kept changing him btw I played him back when he had weaker moving version of pugna's ultimate as one of basic skills
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On April 05 2014 16:52 rob.au wrote:
I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight.
How is skadi significantly better for teamfighting than manta? In terms of stats both are about equal cost efficiency wise and I think mantas ability is far more useful than skadis.
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On April 06 2014 16:45 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 16:52 rob.au wrote:
I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight. How is skadi significantly better for teamfighting than manta? In terms of stats both are about equal cost efficiency wise and I think mantas ability is far more useful than skadis.
it gives 725 hp, manta gives 190
manta illu are so bad and weak compared to ur other ones. they do 25% dmg and die in 1-2 aoe nukes
atleast melee manta illu are stronger and has a shorter cd which means can farm better with them.
im #1 tb dotabuff XD
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On April 06 2014 18:40 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2014 16:45 Pokebunny wrote:On April 05 2014 16:52 rob.au wrote:
I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight. How is skadi significantly better for teamfighting than manta? In terms of stats both are about equal cost efficiency wise and I think mantas ability is far more useful than skadis. it gives 725 hp, manta gives 190 manta illu are so bad and weak compared to ur other ones. they do 25% dmg and die in 1-2 aoe nukes atleast melee manta illu are stronger and has a shorter cd which means can farm better with them. im #1 tb dotabuff XD
Maybe frogster should nerf you
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On April 06 2014 18:40 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2014 16:45 Pokebunny wrote:On April 05 2014 16:52 rob.au wrote:
I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight. How is skadi significantly better for teamfighting than manta? In terms of stats both are about equal cost efficiency wise and I think mantas ability is far more useful than skadis. it gives 725 hp, manta gives 190 manta illu are so bad and weak compared to ur other ones. they do 25% dmg and die in 1-2 aoe nukes atleast melee manta illu are stronger and has a shorter cd which means can farm better with them. im #1 tb dotabuff XD
do you see any merit in getting manta as ur first big item assuming you forsee a chance to take t1 and t2s with them, get ult orb pb oov into disassemble manta => skadi => another ulti orb =>manta?
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Manta can be disassembled, TIL.
I did EB disassemble into Butterfly once and it felt cool. Gotta try that Manta into 1200g "cheaper" Skadi (as you save one 2100 UO but have to "waste" a Manta recipe until you finish it).
Also to be fair on the Yasha into Skadi vs Manta discussion, Skadi is actually 345 HP over a Manta+Ultimate Orb (which cost 600g less). It't not 725 vs 190.
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On April 07 2014 12:12 zelphin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2014 18:40 ChunderBoy wrote:On April 06 2014 16:45 Pokebunny wrote:On April 05 2014 16:52 rob.au wrote:
I'm not sure manta rush actually allows you to do anything special with TB that he can't already do. You already melt towers without manta, and getting a manta doesn't let you teamfight much better IMO since you are just going to melt to nukes.
That 2.5k is almost a BKB or half your Skadi which are both items I'm normally desperate for on TB if I want to teamfight. How is skadi significantly better for teamfighting than manta? In terms of stats both are about equal cost efficiency wise and I think mantas ability is far more useful than skadis. it gives 725 hp, manta gives 190 manta illu are so bad and weak compared to ur other ones. they do 25% dmg and die in 1-2 aoe nukes atleast melee manta illu are stronger and has a shorter cd which means can farm better with them. im #1 tb dotabuff XD do you see any merit in getting manta as ur first big item assuming you forsee a chance to take t1 and t2s with them, get ult orb pb oov into disassemble manta => skadi => another ulti orb =>manta?
ive probably already taken the towers during the first 10min long before anyone can get manta
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Some variations that haven't been discussed a lot in this thread are SnY and BoTs. Matrice and Kaibutsu are two 6k players that pick TB a lot (they are also #2 and #7 on Dotabuff). Matrice goes 3xWraith->Yasha->BoTs->Sange->Skadi and Kaibutsu similarly plays Aquila->Yasha->BoTs->Sange->Diffu. And Jukes Master Kermit (#2 on Dotabuff) goes PT->SnY->Skadi.
Personally I like BoTs a lot in solo queue as they make coordinating things easier but I dunno about SnY over Manta. Maybe situationally if u have to fight a lot?
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The risk/advantage of early BoT on tb is the same as with most carries. Its nothing special on TB, and you should get it on a case by case basis as per normal.
I personally find sange a waste of gold. Its kind of a dead end item when you want manta butterfly eventually.
I'm not sure how optimal it is to get early conjure, but I play TB by going stats heavy with 1 point refraction. I get conjure at like level 10 onwards or something. Stats is how I bulk up early on without purchasing HP items.
Ay tb is so powerful that just about any dps item works with him.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Nice thing about Conjure is it allows you to reliably last hit creeps with illusions while you're in the jungle with your main hero.
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Reliably lasthitting with a 30% damage illusion is pretty hard though, for scrubs like me at least.
At what point do you guys start jungling like this? As soon as you have treads completed?
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
I tend to start easy and medium camps once I have Treads, doing hards once I have Yasha.
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On April 08 2014 19:14 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Some variations that haven't been discussed a lot in this thread are SnY and BoTs. Matrice and Kaibutsu are two 6k players that pick TB a lot (they are also #2 and #7 on Dotabuff). Matrice goes 3xWraith->Yasha->BoTs->Sange->Skadi and Kaibutsu similarly plays Aquila->Yasha->BoTs->Sange->Diffu. And Jukes Master Kermit (#2 on Dotabuff) goes PT->SnY->Skadi.
Personally I like BoTs a lot in solo queue as they make coordinating things easier but I dunno about SnY over Manta. Maybe situationally if u have to fight a lot?
matrice does jungle tb which makes build ups like phase, drums aquila less relevant.
SNY seems more appropriate cmpared to manta in games where you have a disadvantage and cant make use of the push power of manta well. he jungles tb so much of the lane control adv of phase and situational treads is lost.
i cant say much more cos i havent really tried early travels to understand its power
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That jungle build is so legit and he makes such a great use of the min ~13 BoTs, definitely going to try it
The order is triple slipper+Circlet opening into double WB+QB -> Boots -> Blade of Alacrity -> Yasha/BoTs in any order -> SnY. Replace WB for Ultimate Orb, then extend into Skadi or Hex with it.
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Just noticed your signature Noya.
There is a bug on that list saying that Reflection should not be blocked by Linken's. While this is true the interaction in Dota 1 is pretty odd. Reflection will go through Linken's fully and put it on cooldown. The current interaction in Dota 2 makes more sense.
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I know, I don't think Reflection should be buffed to go through Linkens either.
Sunder on the other hand, should go through it, but as the hero is probably receiving a nerf before adding him on CM I also doubt it will ever be fixed.
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Terrorblade is pretty amazing at lower levels of MMR. Even at my ~3000 MMR I can score 800-900 GPM in farm most games. I seriously recommend everyone to look at the replays Chunderboy posted, they've helped me a lot in increasing farm potential.
TB is always the hero I pick when I want to end a bad loss streak, he needs some serious nerfing.
Oh and Radiance is amazing even if its late, just keep pushing back all lanes with your illusions and you will make a comeback. I've gone 0-5 early game into 800+ farm with a ~22 min Radiance, enough to win late game.
Why TB is OP+ Show Spoiler +
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When on a losingstreak call 0900-chunderTBoy homevideo booster services. I'll just make a psychological analysis of a match and hopefully get 1054gpm with ease too!
Edit : Beesa, i cant seem to find a game that hasnt been expired of ChunderTBoy. Is it possible you upload 1 or 2 TB replays?
Edit 2 : Found some beesa dropbox replays in this thread, see below.
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On April 11 2014 17:09 govie wrote:When on a losingstreak call 0900-chunderTBoy homevideo booster services. I'll just make a psychological analysis of a match and hopefully get 1054gpm with ease too! Edit : Beesa, i cant seem to find a game that hasnt been expired of Chunder TBoy. Is it possible you upload 1 or 2 TB replays?
TB is uninteresting compared to other hardcarries.
Don't have any decent replays saved, most of them are stomps that aren't worth watching.
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Its ok beesa, allready found some. Its the early game i am interested in, when you get the starting core items, how you skill, how you farm until 15min (with that doublefarm stuff).
Need mmr as i am on a losingstreak since i stopped playing random..
Edit: first game, radiance+manta+PT+PMS+blade at around 20 against a darkseer, a lanecontesting riki and a junglecontesting LD. Its not so bad i think
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How do you sustain yourself in the jungle? I always run out of mana for illusions even with tread switching, and get down to like half HP after taking 5 or 6 camps, even with Treads/Yasha/PMS/QB.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Send yourself the occasional salve and/or clarity, ask allies to come to you with Arcanes/heals.
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So I played this hero for a while and my winrate is still really shit with him (comparatively) despite getting 16 min rad/drums/yasha a few times.
http://dotabuff.com/players/35361365/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
It could be because my mmr is rather high so people know how to counter him and radiance ricing doesn't usually pay off, but I end up having a low impact in most games past the first few towers I take. I find most of my wins were not a result of my actions directly, while when I play naga they certainly are. I also find TB to be a slow farmer even with radiance compared to other carries especially actual radiance carries like naga. Idk if I'm overlooking something or if that's just how the hero plays, but from my conclusion radiance is not the item in 90% of cases if you want to win. It's much easier to control the flow of the game in solo queue by winning midgame teamfights with your strong carrying potential with just drums / yasha / bkb than it is to cut creep waves and farm with radiance illusions.
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I think that you did well if you got the yasha+boot+radiance+some towers before 20 minutes, no? Dont blame yourself for mediocre gameimpact when someone else on your team is going ham pre 20 minutemark so you win the game before 40 minutes. Stomps happen, bad samples.
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You won your radiance games as far as it seems. I never play radi TB because you apply so much pressure to your teammates to survive and it takes so much time to ramp up.
Treads into any stats item is fine. S&Y makes wonders. I couldn't get why rush radi for TB in the first place. He has an immense early kill and tower kill potential. They are all wasted because of radi rush imo.
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I've never really "rushed" radiance. There was one game where I had 2 kills and gotten a fast tower, and in that game I got radiance right after treads, not sure about the timing but it was really fast. Usually I start with stout and branches, buy quelling/pms/treads and see if I can push the tower with metamorph 2 or higher, otherwise I jungle with my main hero and take lane cs with illusions, always making sure to summon one right before the other one expires in lane. Since TB is strong in lane solo against an even matchup with metamorph, its good to have a greedy support to take the lane xp like sand king for example. I then build yasha before radiance as that seems to boost farming and tower pushing by a good amount and finish my radiance after that. 15-19 min is the timing I usually finish this if I manage to get at least one tower and don't die. I never feel like I run out of mana strangely enough when spamming illusions, I can cs even with int tread illusions before yasha so the swapping really helps. I usually get manta right after instead of BoT since unlike naga you don't have that many radiance illusions to farm with.
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What people seem to think is that TB is useless before radiance.....and this could not be further from the truth. He has still massive dps and can demolish towers just fine. And I have my doubts that manta contributes more in fights because you can harrass the opponents constantly with your illusions if you have radiance.
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this heros broken
why are people buying radiance on him
this heros broken
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http://dotabuff.com/players/113871085 (me)
can someone whos experienced tell me what his hard counters are? and if its a viable option to first (insta) pick this hero .i always do and almost have 75-80% winrate in rmm. though i lose in normal unranked lol
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On April 18 2014 22:35 nitrodown7 wrote:http://dotabuff.com/players/113871085 (me) can someone whos experienced tell me what his hard counters are? and if its a viable option to first (insta) pick this hero .i always do and almost have 75-80% winrate in rmm. though i lose in normal unranked lol
Shut him down early, depending one who he's laning with a solo Phoenix or Dark Seer or any of a large number of dual lanes might be able to do it and a Lich/Phoenix lane is probably the worst you can face. If he jungles you gotta gank him or ward his camps. Later on he Lion is really good vs him as both the 5s cd Mana Drain and Hex instantly kill illusions. If you find the real TB Lion can also normally keep him from Sundering with his long disables and high burst. Still whenever I lose with TB, its because the laning stage went to hell.
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In pubs Lich hard lane probably wrecks him apart. He can't stand the harassment and unfavored creep equilibrium. Pair Lich with a durable ranged hero like WR, total ownage.
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On April 18 2014 23:29 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 22:35 nitrodown7 wrote:http://dotabuff.com/players/113871085 (me) can someone whos experienced tell me what his hard counters are? and if its a viable option to first (insta) pick this hero .i always do and almost have 75-80% winrate in rmm. though i lose in normal unranked lol Shut him down early, depending one who he's laning with a solo Phoenix or Dark Seer or any of a large number of dual lanes might be able to do it and a Lich/Phoenix lane is probably the worst you can face. If he jungles you gotta gank him or ward his camps. Later on he Lion is really good vs him as both the 5s cd Mana Drain and Hex instantly kill illusions. If you find the real TB Lion can also normally keep him from Sundering with his long disables and high burst. Still whenever I lose with TB, its because the laning stage went to hell.
thanks guys! what if im playing as TB , there is no chance to catch up?and is a 23+ min radiance worth it if u didnt exactly have the "most ideal" lane?
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In pubs, everything can happen. But considering not having a good time in lane, which would be pretty surprising, I would consider going jungle and give up radiance. Personally I don't like radiance on TB, rather go for PT+drum into taking towers.
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On April 19 2014 00:59 Laserist wrote:
In pubs, everything can happen. But considering not having a good time in lane, which would be pretty surprising, I would consider going jungle and give up radiance. Personally I don't like radiance on TB, rather go for PT+drum into taking towers.
hmm yeah jungle hero and lane illusion is good too but it SUCKS when ur t3 is being pushed in by like 20 min T_T cuz ur team cant hold
can someone who is GOOD at this hero and plays him a lot add me on http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198074136813/ (ill follow you via spectate and replay ) THANKS.
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Why do you like to spectate a TB player? He is the most straightforward dumb autoattack hero.
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On April 19 2014 07:45 Laserist wrote:
Why do you like to spectate a TB player? He is the most straightforward dumb autoattack hero.
That's a very ignorant thing to say. A hero being powerful doesn't mean there's no depth to playing him. TB has to move around the map and push towers alone without dying while still being there for the most important fights. It takes a lot of game sense to play TB well.
On April 19 2014 01:51 nitrodown7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 00:59 Laserist wrote:
In pubs, everything can happen. But considering not having a good time in lane, which would be pretty surprising, I would consider going jungle and give up radiance. Personally I don't like radiance on TB, rather go for PT+drum into taking towers. hmm yeah jungle hero and lane illusion is good too but it SUCKS when ur t3 is being pushed in by like 20 min T_T cuz ur team cant hold can someone who is GOOD at this hero and plays him a lot add me on http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198074136813/ (ill follow you via spectate and replay ) THANKS.
I suggest you watch some Klasynky VODS. He's the second highest rated player in the world and picks a lot of TB, but his profile is private so replays are hard to find. Also check out the Beesa/Rime replays that were linked previously in this thread. These players play very different styles of TB.
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Maybe I am ignorant but it is stupidly easy to play with him. Required game sense to play with this hero is no more than any other carry rather because of his op strength it is even far more less imo. I pick him when I am desperately need some mmr points.
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On April 19 2014 08:05 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 07:45 Laserist wrote:
Why do you like to spectate a TB player? He is the most straightforward dumb autoattack hero. That's a very ignorant thing to say. A hero being powerful doesn't mean there's no depth to playing him. TB has to move around the map and push towers alone without dying while still being there for the most important fights. It takes a lot of game sense to play TB well. Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 01:51 nitrodown7 wrote:On April 19 2014 00:59 Laserist wrote:
In pubs, everything can happen. But considering not having a good time in lane, which would be pretty surprising, I would consider going jungle and give up radiance. Personally I don't like radiance on TB, rather go for PT+drum into taking towers. hmm yeah jungle hero and lane illusion is good too but it SUCKS when ur t3 is being pushed in by like 20 min T_T cuz ur team cant hold can someone who is GOOD at this hero and plays him a lot add me on http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198074136813/ (ill follow you via spectate and replay ) THANKS. I suggest you watch some Klasynky VODS. He's the second highest rated player in the world and picks a lot of TB, but his profile is private so replays are hard to find. Also check out the Beesa/Rime replays that were linked previously in this thread. These players play very different styles of TB.
alright i watched beesas replays , all of em , he just simply owns T_T' im happy i manage an average of near 800+ gpm with a decent lane support. i JUST bought an exalted arcana , im so pumped to start playing this hero :D
i did play a bit of him, good results so far, i think the work on the arcana is insanely good and that what draws me to get better at it http://dotabuff.com/players/113871085/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=ranked_matchmaking&game_mode=all_pick®ion=se_asia&duration=
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
On April 19 2014 08:46 Laserist wrote:
Maybe I am ignorant but it is stupidly easy to play with him. Required game sense to play with this hero is no more than any other carry rather because of his op strength it is even far more less imo. I pick him when I am desperately need some mmr points.
While that may be, it is still inappropriate to come into a thread dedicated to discussing the hero and dissing people who want to learn how to play him. Cut him some slack.
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Some others argue about the game sense required to play this hero or whatever. I expressed my thought.
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Have been playing with terror and it's become one of my favorites. I love how he can push so hard and smash faces if the opposition contests the push. It's like a dragon knight on crack with more late game potential. There's one thing I don't understand though:the aversion to diffusal. I realize ranged illusions do not get the diffusal burn. But let's think about it compared to your other options....
Option 1: rush rad and farm!
The farm power is incredible but you remain very squishy until 1-2 significant items after the rad and struggle to do much other than farm. Additionally, the items benefit does not scale with the number of illusions in a fight, it does not help your illusions kill towers, and when you're in ranged form much of the enemy team may be able to stay out of range. All of that said, you can bling your way to monstrosity status at 30+ mins. If all the team needs is a hard farming late gamer, this is a great option.
Option 2: skadi
Can happen before or after manta. The critically enabling aspect of the skadi is that it is a ranged slow, enabling you to apply your damage. The stats, while expensive, also significantly benefit your illusions. I personally feel that the benefit of the slow is rather limited and this item is primarily about the stats. In general, I think people can typically get a way one way or another. The real tradeoff is that if they run you kill their towers.
Option 3: diffusal and other early fight items
The diffusal makes your illusions significantly better at farming the jungle. It's not a radiance but it is a significant improvement and will allow your illusions to clear camps by themselves very early via the agi and significant damage boost. This can be a hard task even for radiance illusions. Second, it gives you an early ranged slow to setup your meele slow. This happens far sooner than skadi, does not require meta, and can even give you a little bit of fight potential without meta. Finally, as an efficient source of agility it boots your ability to kill towers early on, which is a big potential source of gold for terror. In short, this is much like picking general stat items except that it has a special benefit to your farm power and the utility of purge (though as mentioned, the slow does not seem like that big a deal but purge does have defensive uses as well)
Option 4: midas
Boosting your illusions improves your farm power. So stats do much of the same thing and have other benefits as well. This item doesn't make sense to me. The most critical points in the game to me is when your illusions gain the ability to farm camps by themselves. This doesn't help you get there.
Option 5: none of the above - focus on manta and other stat items or specialty items
Not a bad option and makes good sense. The manta rush in particular clicks for me. It does not mean as much farm powers as other options but it gives good fight and push.
So here's the bottom line as I see it:
- If you can get away with the greed of the midas and don't want to push early a radiance is great (but why wouldn't you want to push?)
- If you have a super scrappy game and need to tank up and fight, you need health and maybe even a bkb
- Otherwise, if you have a bit of room a diffusal provides strong all-around benefits and enables good fighting power and snowballing off tower gold.
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Is it worth getting Midas on this hero at all?
I've been playing him quite a bit lately, and even a 3:30 to 4minute Midas through getting a FB or T1 doens't seem to be that impactful. If anything getting my core items faster lets my ramp into the late game much harder.
Which is weird, because I fucking love my midas.
Anyone have any experiences with Midas on this hero that can better share insight?
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I don't think so. Consider the alternatives and the opportunity cost.
It's not clear that midas bumps your gpm by more than yasha, because with Yasha you're able to easily farm the lane and jungle at the same time. ~4 last hits every minute? No problem... AND it almost certainly delays your next item(s), whatever they may be. It also doesn't help you push down towers faster. Also, midas doesn't directly contribute to building one of your core items like yasha does (Manta or SnY).
It's just not the way TB should be played. You can snowball faster with Yasha.
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At what level of play does this hero become stupidly imbalanced? When I solo queue at 3.9k my winrate both with and against him is about 50%. Playing with friends who are 4.6k it seems about the same. Is he like earth spirit in that he only really takes off relatively to other heroes when played by actually good people?
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On April 21 2014 16:58 KlaCkoN wrote:
At what level of play does this hero become stupidly imbalanced? When I solo queue at 3.9k my winrate both with and against him is about 50%. Playing with friends who are 4.6k it seems about the same. Is he like earth spirit in that he only really takes off relatively to other heroes when played by actually good people?
im by no means a good player but i queue around 4k - 4.5k depending on who im playing with, and find it very easy to dominate the game.
play him like naga, farming out the map and being six slotted 30-35 mins in. his illusions last so long compared to other illusion heroes that i think its dumb not to play him this way. honestly hes just like an easier, more forgiving version of naga, with ranged attacks and ridiculous lane presence and SUPER efficient jungling.
whatever the mmr, if you get good at hitting your timings, and if your supports help, you can dominate the game faster than any other illusion hero and WAY safer. He has ridiculous kill potential at lv 1, and then again at lv 2 with a pt in meta, making it easy to first blood in most lanes.
since ive gone the beesa style, my win rate has been 80% +
here are my (shit 4k mmr teir) timings
6-7 min treads/pms/quelling
10-11 min yasha
18-20 min radiance
if you reliably hit those timings i don't think you'll have much trouble until high 4k unless your team picks pure greed.
another nice benefit to running the jungle/radiance build on him is you can rotate in a support to sit in lane and soak exp while you farm the lane with images and jungle on your hero..
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On April 21 2014 11:19 Gimpb wrote:
Option 1: rush rad and farm!
The farm power is incredible but you remain very squishy until 1-2 significant items after the rad and struggle to do much other than farm. Additionally, the items benefit does not scale with the number of illusions in a fight, it does not help your illusions kill towers, and when you're in ranged form much of the enemy team may be able to stay out of range. All of that said, you can bling your way to monstrosity status at 30+ mins. If all the team needs is a hard farming late gamer, this is a great option.
i think you miss the important parts about radiance.
not only does it farm, but it pushes lanes out making it extremely hard for the enemy team to push without their t1s/t2s being threatened. it controls the whole map and makes TONS of space.
radiance can deny out the enemy jungle extremely easily and reliably, and starvation dota is probably the easiest way to win.
radiance burn makes blink based heroes much less effective, and the pool has a lot of popular blink heroes atm like nyx/centaur/puck/etc.
you can cut creep waves and stop pushes in their tracks.
it doesn't matter that the radiance burn doesn't stack. the item does serious work that it doesn't get credit for.
also, the thing about terrorblade, is he isn't a hard farming late gamer. you can be online with treads/radiance/skaadi at 20-25 mins pretty reliably, even if you aren't crazy good with him. it just takes a bit of practice. that favors pretty well compared to real hard-farmers like spectre or AM.
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On April 19 2014 08:46 Laserist wrote:
Maybe I am ignorant but it is stupidly easy to play with him. Required game sense to play with this hero is no more than any other carry rather because of his op strength it is even far more less imo. I pick him when I am desperately need some mmr points.
You probably are, maybe watch a better player to catch the little things and to improve yourself
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On April 21 2014 17:13 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 16:58 KlaCkoN wrote:
At what level of play does this hero become stupidly imbalanced? When I solo queue at 3.9k my winrate both with and against him is about 50%. Playing with friends who are 4.6k it seems about the same. Is he like earth spirit in that he only really takes off relatively to other heroes when played by actually good people? im by no means a good player but i queue around 4k - 4.5k depending on who im playing with, and find it very easy to dominate the game. play him like naga, farming out the map and being six slotted 30-35 mins in. his illusions last so long compared to other illusion heroes that i think its dumb not to play him this way. honestly hes just like an easier, more forgiving version of naga, with ranged attacks and ridiculous lane presence and SUPER efficient jungling. whatever the mmr, if you get good at hitting your timings, and if your supports help, you can dominate the game faster than any other illusion hero and WAY safer. He has ridiculous kill potential at lv 1, and then again at lv 2 with a pt in meta, making it easy to first blood in most lanes. since ive gone the beesa style, my win rate has been 80% + here are my (shit 4k mmr teir) timings 6-7 min treads/pms/quelling 10-11 min yasha 18-20 min radiance if you reliably hit those timings i don't think you'll have much trouble until high 4k unless your team picks pure greed. another nice benefit to running the jungle/radiance build on him is you can rotate in a support to sit in lane and soak exp while you farm the lane with images and jungle on your hero..
I find that in order to get that kind of farm I need the safelane to be empty from min8 or so onwards, can't really keep an illusion alive to lasthit with where there is an enemy hero in the lane, though maybe that's just a skill issue on my part. And if my teammates are successfully defending the jungle and the safelane is empty I can get farm like that on luna or am or pl as well and it feels like they use that farm just as well, I guess I just haven't figured out what this hero gets me that any of those three don't.
And the fact that he lacks any sort of front loaded burst makes it feel like just straight bkb isn't nearly as effective on him as on luna or gyro or sf. Meaning that for those cases where farming for 25 min isn't an option there aren't really any good item choices.
I mean since everyone seems to agree that the hero is imbalanced as fuck I guess I am just wrong but yeah.
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Buy a qb, your animation is way better than pretty much anyone
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On April 21 2014 16:58 KlaCkoN wrote:
At what level of play does this hero become stupidly imbalanced? When I solo queue at 3.9k my winrate both with and against him is about 50%. Playing with friends who are 4.6k it seems about the same. Is he like earth spirit in that he only really takes off relatively to other heroes when played by actually good people?
Well, I am around 5,1-5,3k and at that level he sseems really fucking out there. Almost makes ember fun to play against because at least you can fight ember, the big problem with tb is that with good support he is a stupidly strong laner and then he plays a bit like naga so you never see the real tb for 35 mins and then you cant get to the other side of the map because he base-races as good as 3-4 normal heroes and you need at least 3 heroes to chase him away (unlike most other split-pushers where 2 are enough). At least thats my take.
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I find that in order to get that kind of farm I need the safelane to be empty from min8 or so onwards, can't really keep an illusion alive to lasthit with where there is an enemy hero in the lane, though maybe that's just a skill issue on my part. And if my teammates are successfully defending the jungle and the safelane is empty I can get farm like that on luna or am or pl as well and it feels like they use that farm just as well, I guess I just haven't figured out what this hero gets me that any of those three don't.
And the fact that he lacks any sort of front loaded burst makes it feel like just straight bkb isn't nearly as effective on him as on luna or gyro or sf. Meaning that for those cases where farming for 25 min isn't an option there aren't really any good item choices.
I mean since everyone seems to agree that the hero is imbalanced as fuck I guess I am just wrong but yeah.
its probably just practice. with 2-3 pts in illusion early they last hit for around 40 dmg depending on where you are at stat wise, which is like last hitting at lv 1. And you shouldn't be alone in the safelane, you should have your support zoning and taking experience, making it difficult for the enemy to figure out your position or contest last hits.
this hero accelerates way faster than luna, pl, or am and is most comparable to naga. what tb gives you instead is a crazy long attack range, more or less the best illusions in game, and a laning presence stronger than any of the carries you mentioned. hes an absolute beast in the laning phase, unlike AM or pl
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It's kinda true that this hero doesn't take skill and is boring to watch....
Alteast not as much skill as it takes to play AM/Morph
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On April 22 2014 20:11 ChunderBoy wrote:
It's kinda true that this hero doesn't take skill and is boring to watch....
Alteast not as much skill as it takes to play AM/Morph
Man you havent been playing much games recently
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On April 22 2014 20:11 ChunderBoy wrote:
It's kinda true that this hero doesn't take skill and is boring to watch....
Alteast not as much skill as it takes to play AM/Morph
Ya. hes also a lot less interesting to play against compared to am or morph
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Anyways i think a patch is expected VERY soon , and along with it a few nerfs perhaps?
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probably a nerf on reflection
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I've been seeing a lot of posts here how reflection is OP.
I've played a lot of terrorblade last February and March, doing this build order:
E-Q-E-W-E-R-E-W-W-W-R-Q-Q-Q-U-R
So, what is the current cookie cutter skill build order right now? Just curious, thanks.
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On April 23 2014 11:36 Discarder wrote:
So, what is the current cookie cutter skill build order right now? Just curious, thanks.
1-1-2-0 into 1-4-2-1 if you can farm with illusions in lane or 1-1-4-1 if you can get kills/towers. Delay ult whenever between 6~10 for more levels on CI if you can get away with it.
lvl 1 skill depends on opponent, Meta if contested lane, most of the time just lvl 1 Reflection to trade hits favorably
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Normally skip extra levels on Reflection until post lvl 16, and only max it when there's a good melee carry/aura to target (free Radiance/Vlads/AC/etc with <50% uptime)
On the patch topic, I expect Reflection to be nerfed so it's not such a 1 point wonder skill and force you to actually max it (Naix Open Wounds treatment)
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slow for 5 seconds definitely is pretty op at level 1
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On April 23 2014 05:46 Erasme wrote:
probably a nerf on reflection
I think a nerf on some base stats would be nice too. That or a meta change.
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Make reflection scale, change BAT to 1.7
Illusion heroes dont deserve good BATs.
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On April 22 2014 20:11 ChunderBoy wrote:
It's kinda true that this hero doesn't take skill and is boring to watch....
Alteast not as much skill as it takes to play AM/Morph
Meh, AM doesn't take that much either.
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On April 24 2014 02:50 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 20:11 ChunderBoy wrote:
It's kinda true that this hero doesn't take skill and is boring to watch....
Alteast not as much skill as it takes to play AM/Morph Meh, AM doesn't take that much either.
he's the least forgiving by far.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On April 24 2014 02:20 ChunderBoy wrote:
Make reflection scale, change BAT to 1.7
Illusion heroes dont deserve good BATs.
Dare to elaborate why they don't :D? Especially since 1.5 BAT is overall ~13% dps increase over 1.7 BAT, not exactly great.
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Reflection should definitely scald. Rank 1 is so strong. Still don't understand why people max it first over stats.
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I think his base armor and hp regen could be nerfed too. Buy a PMS + 8 armor + 2.5 regen is dumb in lane.
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On April 24 2014 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 02:20 ChunderBoy wrote:
Make reflection scale, change BAT to 1.7
Illusion heroes dont deserve good BATs. Dare to elaborate why they don't :D? Especially since 1.5 BAT is overall ~13% dps increase over 1.7 BAT, not exactly great.
Dude, 13% is a bit of a huge difference lol
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I lost a game with this hero yesterday.
Should I kill myself.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On April 24 2014 21:37 ch33psh33p wrote:
I lost a game with this hero yesterday.
Should I kill myself.
Were you against dark seer? If you were not, yes, if you were, did you build a raw damage item? If you did, no, if you did not, yes and better by Burning himself.
On April 24 2014 17:58 Surprise.820 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 24 2014 02:20 ChunderBoy wrote:
Make reflection scale, change BAT to 1.7
Illusion heroes dont deserve good BATs. Dare to elaborate why they don't :D? Especially since 1.5 BAT is overall ~13% dps increase over 1.7 BAT, not exactly great. Dude, 13% is a bit of a huge difference lol
Yeah, 0.5 seconds less to destroy a t3 tower.
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On April 24 2014 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 02:20 ChunderBoy wrote:
Make reflection scale, change BAT to 1.7
Illusion heroes dont deserve good BATs. Dare to elaborate why they don't :D? Especially since 1.5 BAT is overall ~13% dps increase over 1.7 BAT, not exactly great.
A lot of the times, fights come down to getting the first and last hit in.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On April 24 2014 23:40 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 24 2014 02:20 ChunderBoy wrote:
Make reflection scale, change BAT to 1.7
Illusion heroes dont deserve good BATs. Dare to elaborate why they don't :D? Especially since 1.5 BAT is overall ~13% dps increase over 1.7 BAT, not exactly great. A lot of the times, fights come down to getting the first and last hit in.
Well, 1.6 BAT over 1.7 BAT certainly does give last hit, but that's far from the most important thing.
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I agree with the BAT nerf, this hero's ease of last hitting is pretty crazy...even better than AM's I feel. Would a nerf on the amount of range he gains in meta form be a good one? I feel it would force him to be closer in fights, which increases his risk. I think his damage output evens this out.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On April 25 2014 00:25 Dreamer.T wrote:
I agree with the BAT nerf, this hero's ease of last hitting is pretty crazy...even better than AM's I feel. Would a nerf on the amount of range he gains in meta form be a good one? I feel it would force him to be closer in fights, which increases his risk. I think his damage output evens this out.
Actually AM and TB have comparable attack animation (0.3 frontswing and melee), it's just that TB's damage gets big fast. Hilariously fast.
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Although TB seems to have disappeared from pubs after the nerf I have been playing this hero a little bit recently and I think if you play him correctly he is still extremely powerful if you build him correctly. I have been going matrice/zenoth style 2/3 wraith bands into yasha and travels and won some pretty ridiculous games with his absolutely disgusting farming/ratting ability, including one memorable win against mega creeps and being down 30k xp and 15k gold. He is super squishy but with metamorphosis you can contribute quite powerfully in lane and even in hard lanes you can transition to jungle even at quite low levels and still farm very fast.
Imo radiance rushes are awful on this hero, if you get stat items your farming/pushing ramps up earlier and 14+ cs a minute is still possible without it. It seems very counter-intuitive on such a squishy hero to skip hp items like drums and rush travels+yasha but I don't think you ever want to teamfight with this hero if possible and with that build you farm at a ridiculous rate and split push as fast as lycan. I am only 4500 but if you are looking to solo carry games in any bracket this hero is one of the best in the game.
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Drums on TB are a waste of itemslot. So is Radiance unless you are Beesa, who could carry the game with Dagon5+EB anyway 
You can teamfight if you get a timely Manta+Skadi (say around 25 minutes) and they don't have illusion hardcounters. But in solo queue games, full rat is the way to go.
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On August 03 2014 02:03 Noya wrote:Drums on TB are a waste of itemslot. So is Radiance unless you are Beesa, who could carry the game with Dagon5+EB anyway You can teamfight if you get a timely Manta+Skadi (say around 25 minutes) and they don't have illusion hardcounters. But in solo queue games, full rat is the way to go.
radiance is incredibly good on this hero, I don't know why people argue against it. its like skipping radiance on naga.
im only 4.5k, but with a bit of practice 20 min quelling-pms-tread-yasha-radiance is really reliable, which turns in to 25 min tread-yasha-radiance-skaadi. radiance is better for rat games because you can keep all the lanes pushed out and steal their jungle without putting yourself at risk. skipping radiance makes you rely more on teamfight and your split push is easier to handle.
i think terrorblade illusions are just too good to skip radiance. they last a long long time and do a high amount of damage.
i could see skipping radiance if you wanted to deathball early or something, but the way it accelerates your farm and gives complete map control cant be understated -- cutting creep waves, keeping all their lanes under pressure, etc.
the nerfs hurt a bit but it doesn't particularly affect the farming style tb -- he is still a strong laner and has enough armor to jungle and lane at the same time. the q nerf kind of hurts but it is more efficient to max his illusions if you are farming anyway
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 03 2014 02:23 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2014 02:03 Noya wrote:Drums on TB are a waste of itemslot. So is Radiance unless you are Beesa, who could carry the game with Dagon5+EB anyway You can teamfight if you get a timely Manta+Skadi (say around 25 minutes) and they don't have illusion hardcounters. But in solo queue games, full rat is the way to go. radiance is incredibly good on this hero, I don't know why people argue against it. its like skipping radiance on naga. im only 4.5k, but with a bit of practice 20 min quelling-pms-tread-yasha-radiance is really reliable, which turns in to 25 min tread-yasha-radiance-skaadi. radiance is better for rat games because you can keep all the lanes pushed out and steal their jungle without putting yourself at risk. skipping radiance makes you rely more on teamfight and your split push is easier to handle. i think terrorblade illusions are just too good to skip radiance. they last a long long time and do a high amount of damage. i could see skipping radiance if you wanted to deathball early or something, but the way it accelerates your farm and gives complete map control cant be understated -- cutting creep waves, keeping all their lanes under pressure, etc. the nerfs hurt a bit but it doesn't particularly affect the farming style tb -- he is still a strong laner and has enough armor to jungle and lane at the same time. the q nerf kind of hurts but it is more efficient to max his illusions if you are farming anyway
Thing is: not only you can push out lanes reliably fast without radiance, with just levels, qb and yasha/manta, you have a serious problem of your illusions and hero itself being ultra paper with plain radiance-treads (that actually hurts your split-pushing potential) while having 0 escape ways, naga at least has ensnare/song. I think i can agree with certain persons advocating playing tb in earlier stages as some sort of lycan that takes towers quickly and then just threatens base while farming up. And having radiance is sort of counter-productive to this, considering that you could have a full manta/ yasha+half of skadi. Also, TB's illusions do alot of damage, while naga's only have riptide and manta-levels of damage as their. That's a counter-argument to getting radiance on TB. Not to mention that TB's illusions are only couple at the same time, while naga gets a pack of 3.
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More like TB illusions are too good to need Radiance. With 80% damage QB Illusions you can get over 10cs per minute with stats items anyway, Naga can't.
I think that Travels are more efficient than Rad if you plan to rat/rice. If you watch some zenoth replays you can see how Radiance is redundant..
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On August 03 2014 02:23 ahw wrote:
i think terrorblade illusions are just too good to skip radiance. they last a long long time and do a high amount of damage.
That's exactly why you skip radiance, the illusions last for ages and do sick damage on their own so you don't need a radiance to make them useful for split-pushing/farming. With just quelling+yasha the illusions clear creeps insanely fast with very little investment and it only gets better with more stat items.
Some words from high level terrorblade pickers about the item:
Zenoth:
Radiance hurts your GPM more than anything, it is a fucking huge gold sink which hurts your farming for 5k+ gold because you're not getting stats for your illusions in that time, and by the time you get it you could have been farming at the same speed with the utility from 5k+ worth of items (e.g. BoT Recipe, Yasha)
Meanwhile it contributes nothing to hitting buildings and TB gets 6-slotted by 35-45 minutes anyway.
Matrice:
By the time you earned the 5k gold for radiance, you could have earned 7-8k easily with stats item.
Tb farm so fast with stats item that radiance will never make caught up in terms of gpm, while being a useless item for both hitting tower and fighting (and being useless shit for your team aswell, till your next two item, so for 25 first minutes of the game)
and last but not least: later you'll have to sell that undershit item.
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well they are both wrong
i can farm a skadi in 3 minutes after getting rad.
i dont always get rad tho
and i havent played this boring hero in months
honestly he is/was so strong that it rly didnt matter what u get u still have like 65% winrate with him even with retarded builds
there are retards out there that use manta in ranged form to farm. top kek
and radiance is just an item that gets better the better u are overall at the game, game knowledge etc...
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Beesa were you the guy who came up with the "fuck I'm behind Radiance timing and enemy team too strong lets just get 2 wraith bands instead" build?
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On August 04 2014 18:33 Surprise.820 wrote:
Beesa were you the guy who came up with the "fuck I'm behind Radiance timing lets just get 2 wraith bands instead" build?
if im behind on these type of carries i go midas. i dont go midas if im ahead and farming.
also 2 wraith bands is dumb. 1 bracer 1 wb is better
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Alright, just wondering where that double wraithband came from because I heard someone from VGIH 2 months ago talk about that and I was like wtf is the logic behind it. Thanks.
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On August 04 2014 18:35 Surprise.820 wrote:
Alright, just wondering where that double wraithband came from because I heard someone from VGIH 2 months ago talk about that and I was like wtf is the logic behind it. Thanks.
u can be as clowny as u want in vgih, u just yolo the first guy u see on the map
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Also about Radiance too is that TB's illusions are (sometimes) ranged. One big advantage of rad-naga is that you can chase down enemy supports, or anyone without serious hp, and cause some serious burn damage which is huge for map control and pressure. Even if a support just comes to clear your illusions or creep wave they'll get burned, and usually burned for quite a lot if you chase them. We've all seen naga games where illusions just essentially move follow supports to burn them down 25-50% of their hp. Without a radiance, naga just doesn't have illusions that are nearly as scary in terms of harassment pressure. It's pretty easy to otherwise just stay away from a naga illusion if it's not doing anything to you until it gets to melee range.
Since TB has powerful ranged illusions a good % of the time the whole thing is redundant. TB can just get Skadi (or even just like yasha really) and if anyone squishy gets anywhere near a ranged TB illusion they're going to take a ton of damage already because the illusion can chase them down while damaging them. The radiance doesn't offer much over just being able to have an illusion right click and chase down an enemy hero. You get that same pressure while saving a bunch of gold and being able to have overall higher stats (extra item slot) on your illusions.
So not only are you not farming faster with radiance, your illusions really aren't gaining very much in terms of a harassment presence compared to just having stats items. With naga radiance works so well because you get a triple effect of farming faster, pushing faster, and having the ability to zone out and harass down squishy heroes which gives tons of map control. TB doesn't really gain any of those things from a radiance because he already has a lot of that stuff and his weaknesses are elsewhere.
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On August 04 2014 23:08 Logo wrote:
Also about Radiance too is that TB's illusions are (sometimes) ranged. One big advantage of rad-naga is that you can chase down enemy supports, or anyone without serious hp, and cause some serious burn damage which is huge for map control and pressure. Even if a support just comes to clear your illusions or creep wave they'll get burned, and usually burned for quite a lot if you chase them. We've all seen naga games where illusions just essentially move follow supports to burn them down 25-50% of their hp. Without a radiance, naga just doesn't have illusions that are nearly as scary in terms of harassment pressure. It's pretty easy to otherwise just stay away from a naga illusion if it's not doing anything to you until it gets to melee range.
Since TB has powerful ranged illusions a good % of the time the whole thing is redundant. TB can just get Skadi (or even just like yasha really) and if anyone squishy gets anywhere near a ranged TB illusion they're going to take a ton of damage already because the illusion can chase them down while damaging them. The radiance doesn't offer much over just being able to have an illusion right click and chase down an enemy hero. You get that same pressure while saving a bunch of gold and being able to have overall higher stats (extra item slot) on your illusions.
So not only are you not farming faster with radiance, your illusions really aren't gaining very much in terms of a harassment presence compared to just having stats items. With naga radiance works so well because you get a triple effect of farming faster, pushing faster, and having the ability to zone out and harass down squishy heroes which gives tons of map control. TB doesn't really gain any of those things from a radiance because he already has a lot of that stuff and his weaknesses are elsewhere.
This is pretty terrible logic. Its like saying "Dont get BF on AM, as its unrealistic to splash damage on heroes!".
You get it for the farming speed and the free map control you get from the item. There are few heroes that farm as fast as TB with radiance.
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Radiance doesn't boost TB's farming speed in a meaningful way as numerous people have already pointed out, or at least numerous people pointed it out with reasoning I'll take and not challenge. AM with Bfury and Naga with Radiance work because even late game when farming speed is less significant those items are still useful on the hero. A TB with Radiance is probably not really what you're after on a 6 slot compared to an item that gives stats. A late game ranged illusion that can survive for a few extra seconds or deal damage faster is probably going to output equal or more damage when trying to do things like bully supports or siege towers compared to a rad illusion.
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Have you managed a 16-17 minute Radiance (PMS+QB+Treads+Yasha+Radiance by 16m) on Terrorblade? Hero and tower kills not required. Your argument doesn't seem very solid if you've never tried it.
The timings are simple and it is mechanically easy to achieve this compared to a Naga with 10-14m Radiance reliant on bottle crowing, stacking and lane presence. TB is extremely efficient farmer with radiance and comes online for fighting and pushing earlier than Naga after the Skadi/BKB purchase, his illusions don't last as long as some illusion heroes but they last long enough and do enough physical damage to clear camps and waves in a moment while not wasting many resources (e.g. mana) at all.
I mean come on, you can get a Skadi or BKB in like 2-4 minutes dude. By 19 minutes you essentially can solo push a tier 3 tower AND melee rax and pretty much 1v1 almost every single hero in the game with relative ease when compared to a 20-22min Anti-Mage with Treads, Battle Fury, Manta and maybe Vlads who is course a faster farmer than TB, but the difference is that AM's real fight potential is around 30 minutes when you get 2x luxury items... while TB is a baller at 19 minutes.
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Even if you get the 16minute 600 GP Radiance you would get 6 slotted at the same time because TB is extremely efficient farmer without it (that's why you are getting 600GPM pre-Radiance).
Let's see what happens when he gets added to CM, but from what I've seen Travels and mass stats are the way to go.
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On August 05 2014 01:54 Noya wrote:
Even if you get the 16minute 600 GP Radiance you would get 6 slotted at the same time because TB is extremely efficient farmer without it (that's why you are getting 600GPM pre-Radiance).
Let's see what happens when he gets added to CM, but from what I've seen Travels and mass stats are the way to go.
If you have 600 gpm with radiance, you probably have too poor of micro to be playing the hero anyways. You should easily have over 700, more towards over 800.
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With just shift click farming the jungle with illusions I can hit 700 gpm with radiance. The big thing about TB for me is you need good defensive wards or you will get ganked very easily
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im still not convinced radiance is unoptimal, especially with how the game is nowadays with so many blink heroes like tinker/sandyking and the other half the pool that buys them. I think this is a pretty underrated aspect of the item.
i've watched the other players mentioned in this thread and i see the strength in rushing stat items and optimizing your 6-slot. that said the map control is not the same effectiveness at the 18 min mark. the stat difference kicks in after the skadi and first butterfly finishes, that seems to be when the stat-focused build hits its stride.
theres the argument that you leave your team vulnerable while farming relic. yea, but with the yasha/bots build, you leave your team vulnerable while farming your 2k bots recipe and 2k ultimate orb. thats a 4k gold window similar to relic that gives u little teamfight usefulness (although pretty good rat potential) and no treads switching
if the game gets to 35+ minutes you are going to have to sell your radiance/treads for more stats/evasion and bots when you are 6 slotted. no big deal. that doesn't change the effectiveness of the item for map control for the 20 minutes you can rely on it. 2500 gold back good investment
maybe its the level i play it,4.5k ish bracket solo and party, it might just be easier to execute radiance. it seems easier mechanically
but thanks for the replays guys always good to check out high level players
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On August 05 2014 01:58 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 01:54 Noya wrote:
Even if you get the 16minute 600 GP Radiance you would get 6 slotted at the same time because TB is extremely efficient farmer without it (that's why you are getting 600GPM pre-Radiance).
Let's see what happens when he gets added to CM, but from what I've seen Travels and mass stats are the way to go. If you have 600 gpm with radiance, you probably have too poor of micro to be playing the hero anyways. You should easily have over 700, more towards over 800.
You need 600 GPM at minute 16~18 to achieve the build you proposed that's what I was talking about.
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I'm not sure but I think Comeh was talking about was towards post Radiance.
edit: NVM I see what you mean now lol
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On August 04 2014 18:30 ChunderBoy wrote:
there are retards out there that use manta in ranged form to farm. top kek
Is the problem with using manta in ranged form to farm that the ranged illusions deal a tad less dmg and a take a tad more dmg? Otherwise it's not jumping out at the screen why it's so bad to manta in ranged form for farming. Or is it because the illusions don't last that long?
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On August 05 2014 02:57 ahw wrote:
i've watched the other players mentioned in this thread and i see the strength in rushing stat items and optimizing your 6-slot. that said the map control is not the same effectiveness at the 18 min mark. the stat difference kicks in after the skadi and first butterfly finishes, that seems to be when the stat-focused build hits its stride.
This is really the point I was making more so than farm speed, with Naga and AM a Radiance and Bfury arguably have a spot in a 6 slot build, even for very long games. Meanwhile on a TB the radiance always strikes me as more of a farming tool where stats actually works better for some of what TB does beyond farming (primarily bullying supports with illusions and sieging towers). It's not bad of course, but most of what I see radiance do late game on someone like Naga I see stats TB doing as well. To me that's what makes radiance and bfury really desirable for AM and Naga, they increase farm speed dramatically, but still have a purpose where that invested gold keeps paying out well into the late game, I'm not sure that's there for TB and maybe it's still worth getting for faster farming, but it seems like there's a reasonable objection to getting it.
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This guy just proves how you don't need radiance
http://dotabuff.com/matches/816920134 (match from 40 mins ago)
If you check it, creeps die fast enough for rad to even make a difference. 6 slotted at 35min O.o
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On August 05 2014 04:10 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 18:30 ChunderBoy wrote:
there are retards out there that use manta in ranged form to farm. top kek
Is the problem with using manta in ranged form to farm that the ranged illusions deal a tad less dmg and a take a tad more dmg? Otherwise it's not jumping out at the screen why it's so bad to manta in ranged form for farming. Or is it because the illusions don't last that long?
melee illusions do 33% dmg and get quelling blade bonus, have 1.5 BAT
ranged illusions do 28% dmg but +80 from meta, have 1.6 BAT
so the illusion dmg against creeps is comparable.
BUT
melee manta has 35sec cd
range manta has 50sec cd...
bet u didnt know that, bet noone knew that
On August 05 2014 04:36 Noya wrote:This guy just proves how you don't need radiance http://dotabuff.com/matches/816920134 (match from 40 mins ago) If you check it, creeps die fast enough for rad to even make a difference.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/545280656
http://dotabuff.com/matches/545163633
http://dotabuff.com/matches/548742079
and i proved that if u only build green items that u own... haha epic
but im still going to say that radiance builds are better if u are better at the game.
radiance has other uses than farming u know....
tb is a pretty shitty hero if u are clever at the game, but most ppl are sheep that follow trendsetters so they cant think for themselves.
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yeah ranged manta sucks it was nerfed hard in .6x something
travels are legit but aren't green so idk
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
Look guys, i think we can agree that with just stat items TB can farm at 600+ gpm and at 700-800+ if he is balling.
Now, how much gpm will radiance give for farming in this case? 100? 150? 200? Well, fuck, because it will bring a profit of 1k gold by the time you will have 30k+ networth. So, what else does it give that TB does not have on his own. From top of my head only ability to bring creep waves away (can't really do that as easily without radiance) and disabling blinks. And now the trick question: why the fuck would you not pick a naga/spectre in this case? TB's strength is ability to eat towers ala lycan, and i don't see anybody trying to build stuff that only kills creeps and harms heroes on lycan, but rather stuff that kills heroes/towers alike.
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On August 05 2014 07:05 lolfail9001 wrote:
Look guys, i think we can agree that with just stat items TB can farm at 600+ gpm and at 700-800+ if he is balling.
Now, how much gpm will radiance give for farming in this case? 100? 150? 200? Well, fuck, because it will bring a profit of 1k gold by the time you will have 30k+ networth. So, what else does it give that TB does not have on his own. From top of my head only ability to bring creep waves away (can't really do that as easily without radiance) and disabling blinks. And now the trick question: why the fuck would you not pick a naga/spectre in this case? TB's strength is ability to eat towers ala lycan, and i don't see anybody trying to build stuff that only kills creeps and harms heroes on lycan, but rather stuff that kills heroes/towers alike.
tb illusions getting towers will nvr work in a real game anyway... hes just weak
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On August 05 2014 07:05 lolfail9001 wrote:
Look guys, i think we can agree that with just stat items TB can farm at 600+ gpm and at 700-800+ if he is balling.
Now, how much gpm will radiance give for farming in this case? 100? 150? 200? Well, fuck, because it will bring a profit of 1k gold by the time you will have 30k+ networth. So, what else does it give that TB does not have on his own. From top of my head only ability to bring creep waves away (can't really do that as easily without radiance) and disabling blinks. And now the trick question: why the fuck would you not pick a naga/spectre in this case? TB's strength is ability to eat towers ala lycan, and i don't see anybody trying to build stuff that only kills creeps and harms heroes on lycan, but rather stuff that kills heroes/towers alike.
tb hits a 25-30 min timing and beasts down multiple raxes after team fights. neither spec or naga do this
naga is more play it out and starve for 40 mins
the big thing radiance gives is map control, keeping multiple waves across the river regardless of ur position. its good for farming as well but its just about map control. they will often have to commit supports to stop the illusions, and then cores will have to commit when you get skadi.
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well plz dont just compare gpm or w/e one pro that radiance gives is that it lets u cut waves like none other
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 05 2014 09:16 zelphin wrote:
well plz dont just compare gpm or w/e one pro that radiance gives is that it lets u cut waves like none other
Radiance allows you cut waves? Well, getting skadi and just auto-attacking those heroes does too. It does not allow to drag away the camped wave, but the only case when you are in need of that is when you are dragging the game out aka doing it wrong. And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting. So GPM is actually a highly important measurement here, especially since 2nd metric does not apply to TB by any mean (i mean, nobody will ever suggest to play TB as if it was spirit bear and go ham on towers 1v5 with a single slot consisting of radiance). On Spec or Naga, radiance will add up as much as 300 gpm, thus paying for itself in at most 20 minutes, that both of those heroes can actually buy (time) if they are not too far behind when radiance is obtained. On TB, this pay-off period can be as late as time when TB himself is 6-slotted, since he well, farms without radiance at hilarious speed too.
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On August 05 2014 10:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 09:16 zelphin wrote:
well plz dont just compare gpm or w/e one pro that radiance gives is that it lets u cut waves like none other Radiance allows you cut waves? Well, getting skadi and just auto-attacking those heroes does too. It does not allow to drag away the camped wave, but the only case when you are in need of that is when you are dragging the game out aka doing it wrong. And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting. So GPM is actually a highly important measurement here, especially since 2nd metric does not apply to TB by any mean (i mean, nobody will ever suggest to play TB as if it was spirit bear and go ham on towers 1v5 with a single slot consisting of radiance). On Spec or Naga, radiance will add up as much as 300 gpm, thus paying for itself in at most 20 minutes, that both of those heroes can actually buy (time) if they are not too far behind when radiance is obtained. On TB, this pay-off period can be as late as time when TB himself is 6-slotted, since he well, farms without radiance at hilarious speed too.
radiance shoves the waves back to the enemy towers faster than any other item pre-20 mins. thats the big advantage, space, gpm aside. makes it easy to farm the jungle/ancients, the enemy jungle, or take big objectives like rosh. it generally creates openings for you to make good trades if team fights start. it really makes it hard for the other team to take objectives
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On August 05 2014 10:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 09:16 zelphin wrote:
well plz dont just compare gpm or w/e one pro that radiance gives is that it lets u cut waves like none other Radiance allows you cut waves? Well, getting skadi and just auto-attacking those heroes does too. It does not allow to drag away the camped wave, but the only case when you are in need of that is when you are dragging the game out aka doing it wrong. And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting. So GPM is actually a highly important measurement here, especially since 2nd metric does not apply to TB by any mean (i mean, nobody will ever suggest to play TB as if it was spirit bear and go ham on towers 1v5 with a single slot consisting of radiance). On Spec or Naga, radiance will add up as much as 300 gpm, thus paying for itself in at most 20 minutes, that both of those heroes can actually buy (time) if they are not too far behind when radiance is obtained. On TB, this pay-off period can be as late as time when TB himself is 6-slotted, since he well, farms without radiance at hilarious speed too.
Why do you assert bad information so confidently? A lot of this stuff is so mis-informed, misleading, and just generally bad analysis. One part really stuck out to me though:
And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting.
No! That's just completely wrong! And just because you say it repeatedly for two pages doesn't make it correct!
While Radiance certainly speeds up a hero's farm, GPM boosting isn't the sole reason you get this on a carry. For illusion-based heroes, Radiance provides a lot of little advantages that add up into it being an optimal item choice. Just consider some of the possibilities of this item in a terrorblade game:
- If you are burning multiple targets, it basically gives you rapier-level damage, and is probably the most damage-efficient item in teh game.
- You clear/cut creep-waves and defend base-pushes before you come completely online.
- Your illusions can practically solo-kill isolated supports in teamfights or in lanes.
- You can cut multiple lanes and maintain insane levels of map-control with just illusions.
- ...
This list is nowhere near complete, and there's just so much this item can do in competent hands.
But if you don't listen to me, atleast listen to the 6k mmr carry that's been posting in the thread.
On August 04 2014 18:30 ChunderBoy wrote:
...
and radiance is just an item that gets better the better u are overall at the game, game knowledge etc...
^
If you understand what the item is capable of on an illusion hero, you'll understand that no item will give you the combination of farm/map-control/harassing/damage/etc that this item provides.
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On August 05 2014 04:56 ChunderBoy wrote:
melee illusions do 33% dmg and get quelling blade bonus, have 1.5 BAT
ranged illusions do 28% dmg but +80 from meta, have 1.6 BAT
so the illusion dmg against creeps is comparable.
BUT
melee manta has 35sec cd
range manta has 50sec cd...
bet u didnt know that, bet noone knew that
Nope I didn't know it, i'll give you that. But I wondered why this tidbit slipped my mind, I checked patch updates, and this change was during my brief break from DotA, trying to climb the SC2 ladder (unsuccessfully). I had no idea about this till now and I've been back for a year.
As for Radiance and TB, I think it's as good as the suggested alternatives, but a lot of people just aren't comparing the two correctly. I see things like GPM, which is great, easily quantifiable and comparable; but outside of numbers choosing one route over another has a lot more considerations than just farm rate. Above sounds about right for radiance, but when i dont go radiance, I feel I can be just as effective, though I do prefer one of over the other because personal preference (go figure)
On August 05 2014 14:47 Hapahauli wrote:
But if you don't listen to me, atleast listen to the 6k mmr carry that's been posting in the thread.
Ehh and you shouldn't be saying things because 6k mmr this, 7k mmr that, that's the sole reason people don't use brain and follow like sheep. To some degree you should use your better judgement no matter the mmr or cause "da proz." Use brain. And in beesa case, most have determined is credible so we don't need to go there.
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I'm probably the only one who skips illusion for some stats, because fuck mass farming. I just wanna shoot heroes. Not that its the optimal way to play him though, its just my preference.
I think the whole use radiance illusions to farm everywhere on naga/tb is a disgusting way to play the game. I would never ever feel good winning this way even if it means a 80min comeback against mega etc. Main reason is that there are more than one ways to play these 2 heroes, and the alternatives are not exactly bad, but certainly more interactive and fun. That's how casual pub players should be playing, unless you are so desperate for MMR and pick TB/naga every game...
With all that said, one day I'm going to get refresher on tb. Go in with low life, sunder refresh sunder to give the enemy hope, and proceed to still kill him. One day I'll do it....
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On August 05 2014 18:52 DucK- wrote:
I'm probably the only one who skips illusion for some stats, because fuck mass farming. I just wanna shoot heroes. Not that its the optimal way to play him though, its just my preference.
I think the whole use radiance illusions to farm everywhere on naga/tb is a disgusting way to play the game. I would never ever feel good winning this way even if it means a 80min comeback against mega etc. Main reason is that there are more than one ways to play these 2 heroes, and the alternatives are not exactly bad, but certainly more interactive and fun. That's how casual pub players should be playing, unless you are so desperate for MMR and pick TB/naga every game...
With all that said, one day I'm going to get refresher on tb. Go in with low life, sunder refresh sunder to give the enemy hope, and proceed to still kill him. One day I'll do it....
refresh meta + 1 extra illusion + manta cooldown.. op
if you play a terrorblade game that gets to 80 minutes, something has gone terribly terribly (lol get it) wrong for about 40 minutes. my favourite part of playing him is he generally is pretty swift at ending the game when ahead compared to other illusion heroes cause he just gets item capped
but to move beyond the radiance/noradiance discussion, i think some yolobuilds are in order. I'm thinkin armlet would be pretty fun, treads/armlet/mom/manta and go for it
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On August 05 2014 19:24 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:52 DucK- wrote:
I'm probably the only one who skips illusion for some stats, because fuck mass farming. I just wanna shoot heroes. Not that its the optimal way to play him though, its just my preference.
I think the whole use radiance illusions to farm everywhere on naga/tb is a disgusting way to play the game. I would never ever feel good winning this way even if it means a 80min comeback against mega etc. Main reason is that there are more than one ways to play these 2 heroes, and the alternatives are not exactly bad, but certainly more interactive and fun. That's how casual pub players should be playing, unless you are so desperate for MMR and pick TB/naga every game...
With all that said, one day I'm going to get refresher on tb. Go in with low life, sunder refresh sunder to give the enemy hope, and proceed to still kill him. One day I'll do it.... refresh meta + 1 extra illusion + manta cooldown.. op if you play a terrorblade game that gets to 80 minutes, something has gone terribly terribly (lol get it) wrong for about 40 minutes. my favourite part of playing him is he generally is pretty swift at ending the game when ahead compared to other illusion heroes cause he just gets item capped but to move beyond the radiance/noradiance discussion, i think some yolobuilds are in order. I'm thinkin armlet would be pretty fun, treads/armlet/mom/manta and go for it
Forget refresher for the meta cooldown, I wanna see Satanic + Refresher for a x4 life TB (2x Unholy Rages and 2x Sunder)
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I guess the best build to play 4-0-4 would be BKB+SnY (+Daedalus later)
That way you have the tools to hit heroes instead of creeps, but can't realy farm it <min 25 unless the game goes really good.
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For complete trolling i think Armlet into Shadow Blade is hard to beat. Spice it with Dagon.
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On August 05 2014 23:45 Noya wrote:
I guess the best build to play 4-0-4 would be BKB+SnY (+Daedalus later)
That way you have the tools to hit heroes instead of creeps, but can't realy farm it <min 25 unless the game goes really good.
Never liked the bkb rush. Yasha hotd bkb with points in stats is how I would do it. I wouldn't max refraction too. Just maybe a couple.
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On August 06 2014 01:34 loboscope wrote:
For complete trolling i think Armlet into Shadow Blade is hard to beat. Spice it with Dagon.
As if this build has ever gone away...
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On January 31 2014 09:25 Firebolt145 wrote:
Discussion will go here once I can be bothered.
Wow, the pull of Wildstar is Stronk.
So folks, I been thinking of diving into terror Blade while teaching a buddy the ropes. Who are good laning partners for TB?
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On August 06 2014 05:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 09:25 Firebolt145 wrote:
Discussion will go here once I can be bothered.
Wow, the pull of Wildstar is Stronk. So folks, I been thinking of diving into terror Blade while teaching a buddy the ropes. Who are good laning partners for TB?
He is a pretty strong laner because you are always a threat to kill with meta. So anyone with a good stun works well.
shadow demon is pretty amazing because disrupt->soul catcher + terror blade burst = dead anything + you can illusion siege high ground later which is kinda nice
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Shaman or Lion seem pretty noob friendly too.
edit: Holy fuck sorry for the week bump.
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PT+basi+Mom+bkb+crit could be good right, synergy with the E skill is there for a mid 4041 TB maybe? I could try to play him as a shadow fiend but with a slow (the luxury haha) and transition into manta+skadi for the lategame to let the illusions siege the tougher structures.
I think that the extra E-basedamage timingwindow could be abused somehow and a crit+mom could extend that window a bit. So an early crit could logical when you dont go for an early radiance/illusion build. Still a wierd hero this one, so many options.
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On September 30 2014 23:22 govie wrote:
PT+basi+Mom+bkb+crit could be good right, synergy with the E skill is there for a mid 4041 TB maybe? I could try to play him as a shadow fiend but with a slow (the luxury haha) and transition into manta+skadi for the lategame to let the illusions siege the tougher structures.
I think that the extra E-basedamage timingwindow could be abused somehow and a crit+mom could extend that window a bit. So an early crit could logical when you dont go for an early radiance/illusion build. Still a wierd hero this one, so many options.
I don't think with this patch there is many reasons to go non-lategame build. TB has around 1k hp with something like bkb+crit+pt+stuff, he dies like paper especially with MoM. Basically most games I play the hero I accept that if I don't reach certain farm, the hero won't do much and go for lategame, or in TB's case 25min timing.
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I generally play TB to hit a 17 minute radiance, then 21 minute manta, then skadi/bkb/heart depending what I'm up against. With just the radiance/manta/treads at that sort of timing with meta you can kill squishies in two shots from yourself + illusions, and your illusions just by themselves in lane threaten towers enough that the other team has to send a hero to stop it. If its a weaker defensive hero your illusion can even kill them sometimes which is rather funny.
The big thing about TB to me is your ability to kill towers after the manta is unmatched at that timing, you even kill buildings faster than Tiny, so if your team is able to skirmish decently around the 20-35 minute mark, you will get rax fairly easily.
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On October 01 2014 01:13 Varth wrote:
I generally play TB to hit a 17 minute radiance
radiance tb is really pretty bad tbh, at least from pro games I've seen with it. radiance is over 5k gold invested for something that is only really useful to farm and push. what if you build items that were good for farming and pushing but also increased your teamfight potential and survivabilty?
double bracer or bracer + wraith band early (double wraithband is too fragile imo, but I start with two circlets just to give myself flexibilty), brown boots and quelling (shield situationally maybe) is enough to let you survive and lane and be able to turn things around with a point or two in metamorph. then build a quick yasha. I see people get aquila and if you're super duper farmed or you get first blood or something maybe that's good but I'd rather get the fast yasha, the move speed is killer and the agi is way better than aquila. drums is also an option but again I think it's less optimal than yasha. if you do it right you can get all that - brown boots, double bracer, quelling, and yasha - at ~10-11 mins. terrorblade is a farming machine. from there you have two options
either build the yasha into sny, or go straight manta. I prefer SNY, but if you win some big fights or w/e then go for the manta first. after your sny you should get bots, the speed is amazing and you can chase down anyone. Bots are pretty much core on TB I think, combine with your value point in q (never put more than one point into it until you finish stats and have to).
then you can build manta and rebuild yasha while still getting the strength and slow proc. this will give you both farm and fight potential in the midgame. from here, you should be looking to do three things:
always be pushing or jungling. if your illusion spell is off cooldown you're playing tb wrong.
can you take a fight? at this point with level two sunder and some items you can fight with your team (make sure to keep split pushing with an illusion though)
if you can't fight or your team is far behind, get them to group or take objectives, be with them, and then as soon as the enemy shows up bots to another lane, metamorph + manta + illusion and push the fuck out of that lane. if they don't come back with at least three people just man fight, you can nuke pretty much anyone down at this point and then sunder to nuke the other person down if it's only two.
from there, finish out your build with skaadi, butterfly, and maybe eventually sell sny for another butterfly or heart or something (maybe linkins? it gives stats and survivabilty which is great but I dunno. I usually end games before it gets to the point where i'm six slotted with buyback money and I'm looking to improve on sny)
obvi situationally bkb is good if you really need it, and early game if you're getting harrassed heavily it might be smart to build treads for extra survivabilty (but sell them for bots as soon as you have sny and manta).
just my two cents, I haven't played a lot with terrorblade (maybe 10 games this build? and a few more when I was trash and did other shit like straight aquila + phase lol) but I've only lost once with him doing this build.
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I pretty much don't commit to a radiance unless I know I will hit a good timing with it (sub 20 minutes). When you get a radiance in that timing it lets you do much more than farm. You can cut waves incredibly easily to stall pushes, and the radiance burn in team fights until 30minutes in is incredibly good, also stops blink daggers.
Generally the actual way I play it once I get radiance, is I farm my jungle with my hero and just stream illusions to the safe lane and push the lane until I have manta. Then I just go to the longlane, cut their creeps with 1 illusion and start pushing down the tower. With the radiance burn on illusions, even if they can potentially kill my main hero, I still contribute enough dmg with illusion burn while staying back to be very helpful, and once their big nukes are down you just run in and kill everyone.
TLDR if you can get the radiance before 20minutes, it's 110% worth it
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weve had 20 pages of radiance vs not radiance talk it would be cool to not devolve back in to that. It comes down to your play style, team comp, and execution. seriously read from page 10 onward if you want to learn a lot about qb/pms/treads/yasha/radiance vs aquilla/yasha/bots builds
Worth noting is the buff to sunder makes his ult way more reliable now, and the buff to bots makes the rat style TB much more effective.
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So I get TB at the moment, I like him most as a Rat-hero. What kind of team needs to be built around that though? I suppose you need a strong early-mid team?
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Yo pro tip - dont get a radiance against a morph as a TB.
Love - your local morph player.
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If you want to truly just rat and not teamfight too much, it works well against teams with a very very late game hero such as a spec or medusa, so that if your team is fighting 4v5 they are not super outclassed. Generally I tell my team that if they get in a teamfight to just draw it out with juking ect, because every 30seconds they buy is a tower down.
One thing is while playing rat tb is GET BOTS. Bots not only help with rat, but also enable you to join teamfights that are not close to towers. When ratting you don't even totally have to be there yourself, your illusions + manta or whatever can down towers by themselves, and you are a very strong glass cannon even with rat builds for teamfights
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United States2186 Posts
On October 09 2014 01:15 Giku wrote:
So I get TB at the moment, I like him most as a Rat-hero. What kind of team needs to be built around that though? I suppose you need a strong early-mid team?
Surprisingly not really. It's more important to have a team that's hard to high ground against. This means big AOE stuff that you can't easily engage into like AA, Bat, ET, Tide, Enigma, Void, SK, Mag, Puck, Dazzle, or even Zeus cause he's so good right now. Assuming you're good enough to dodge all the ganks you want your defense to be able to stall them for awhile, due to a strong engagement threat and creep clearing aoe. If your team can stall an initial high ground rush you can creep cut that lane (at least if you have radi or are very farmed) and get at the enemy base yourself, forcing them into a desperate dive or retreating. You want a second core, preferably tanky, like razor/dp. TB is not a good 4 protect 1 hero since he's a little baby when focused with chain disables/aoe and you want someone else on your team to absorb enemy focus initially in fights while TB walks in later/from behind and does all the damage. Lastly you want at least one good blink initiator, bat is obviously the best, but lion works well from a support role to punish 1 hero reacting to your split push. This initiation, particularly Puck, is also really key at Rosh since Rosh is so difficult to take now when contested.
And definitely get bots after your first farming item/enemy safelane tower down. Treads initially can accelerate your farming a lot if you're heavily contested or have freefarm but once you have yasha/radi or manta/skadi or especially a bfly, bots will let you get truly ludicrous cs levels and get 6 slotted at 30-40 mins very easily while keeping 2-3 lanes pushed.
c9's drafts were mostly really good and made up for EE's mediocre play, at least in the LGD games, because they were so awkward to high ground.
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If you wanna rat with TB, you pretty much need a lineup that wont lose within like 25 minutes. I think the way c9 does is that they like to give fata a good mid hero (Puck/Razor) to create this space. He played very well in WCA.
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Morph and TB lineup in progames, gief! the aids splitpush with morph is just ridicolus im calling it will become a common strat closer to TI right now unless somthing drasticly changes.
once morph hits his 16 shit gonna hit the fan.
ofcourse it depends what other team is picking also but yea.
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On October 09 2014 04:46 DucK- wrote:
If you wanna rat with TB, you pretty much need a lineup that wont lose within like 25 minutes. I think the way c9 does is that they like to give fata a good mid hero (Puck/Razor) to create this space. He played very well in WCA.
thats true you need a good early/midgame lineup that can fight and fend off their pushes or delay them.
once the game is around 20-25min ish.
it will become really hard for them to finish the game.
thats the goal, its also important to see what other team picks.
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Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero?
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On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero?
Get it in your head that Null -> Blademail build is not even a good build on NP.
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On October 13 2014 06:29 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero? Get it in your head that Null -> Blademail build is not even a good build on NP.
I don't know, it works in certain situations. Like if you're up against squishy heroes with high nuke damage, it does wonders. Also, helps you fight earlier than getting a midas + item.
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If you are talking about Midas on TB it's pretty bad. He farms so quickly it just prolongs his weak state of having low HP. A radiance gives you 10cs+ a minute at like 20-22 minutes if your lane went okay, and your creeps explode once you have a manta. A midas is just for levels and at the rate he farms you will have all the experience you really need anyway. I'd rather get a Yasha and increase farming rate.
If you want, check out this replay for how to creep with TB and you will see the midas just puts off your other items.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/939991302
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On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero?
Imo, i think not because of the base armour differences. The blademail damageoutput is worse on agiheros in general and scales even worse. the illusionss dont benefit from the item at all and TB allready has damageoutput with E-skill. If you want to be an early manfighter get a PT+RoA+urn+OoV & 4041 and go roaming ending up with (blink+s&)y+bkb+skadi. You have enough manaregen to sustain spamming some spells and the urn gives HP-regen if your succesfull.
Add: I think sven good be a good roamingsupport for terrorblade, as the aghs ultimate boosts the basedamage x2 in 900 aoe. E-damage is basedamage and the illusions benefit from both. Expensive but that aghs damageoutput will be through the roof if you can time the item before lvl17 terrorblade.
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I think you would need the sven as a core. That item is too expensive to just casually pick up as a support unless you are rolling them anyway. The issue is that support sven really wants a blink and he benefits from treads a lot. Meaning you are looking at a support nearing about 8k networth which is kind of a lot unless you purposely cut out farm for him. TB doesn't tend to be too kind about leaving farm for other cores.
I thought about running wisp/tiny mid with safelane sven +1. But a topic for another place I suppose.
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On October 13 2014 06:38 vizuaLize wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 06:29 DucK- wrote:On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero? Get it in your head that Null -> Blademail build is not even a good build on NP. I don't know, it works in certain situations. Like if you're up against squishy heroes with high nuke damage, it does wonders. Also, helps you fight earlier than getting a midas + item.
Or you could build a dagon and play the exact same way without being played around the blademail. Its also not as though you're tanky enough to absorb such abuse. Anyway i mentioned the reasoning in the prophet thread so we could carry on the discussion there.
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Only reason radiance would be good on TB would be if you got an insanely good start and they cannot contest you even then its bad.
becuse it lowers your farmrate you see, becuse you gotta save up for that relic and that recipie, during that time you have had your other items that have gained you more gold, but sure if you go for that radiance.
Lets say they do not distrupt u, evnethen you cannot farm lanes that well. becuse your illus will melt anyway, not before you got manta/skadi then your illusions starts to become tanky.
Wich means just one nuke and your illu with radi in that lane is gone, sure you can micro it and such but that doesnt matter.
the fact is fast items on TB allows you to farm entire jungle plus a lane is more than enuff.
I just dont see the point of radiance on TB in so many ways.
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On October 13 2014 17:36 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
Only reason radiance would be good on TB would be if you got an insanely good start and they cannot contest you even then its bad.
becuse it lowers your farmrate you see, becuse you gotta save up for that relic and that recipie, during that time you have had your other items that have gained you more gold, but sure if you go for that radiance.
Lets say they do not distrupt u, evnethen you cannot farm lanes that well. becuse your illus will melt anyway, not before you got manta/skadi then your illusions starts to become tanky.
Wich means just one nuke and your illu with radi in that lane is gone, sure you can micro it and such but that doesnt matter.
the fact is fast items on TB allows you to farm entire jungle plus a lane is more than enuff.
I just dont see the point of radiance on TB in so many ways.
Did you watch some progames lately? Most TB's are build for some early items(stats or yasha kind of) then switch to radiance in the mid game to win the war of attrition later on chipping of raxes with mass illusions(naga style). Whole build is for staying alive and contribute early to mid game, then out-push the enemy in late game.
One nuke never ever kill your illusions when you have stats. He is sort of superior naga with good early game potential.
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If you get that radiance and are forcing a hero into that lane just to use a spell on our illusion thats already really damn worth it, considering the radiance burn instantly pushes the lane and u can even just run the illusion back a bit and if they chase it to nuke it LOL.
Even if u dont micro it and they come back to kill the illusion pushing that lane so what, ur farming like 2-3 camps at once, or check runes, force someone to defend a lane, have them walk around the map when u see alot of missing heros while pushing that lane back (if they smoke gank nothing more can come of it if all the lanes arent pushing for them). Have the ability to farm their jungle without too much danger (ofc they probably wont last long unless ur pushing that very lane)
I personally am not sure which build is better but i think ur underestimating radiance if ur only looking at numbers
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If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early.
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I don't think there should be a reason to not go BoT+Yasha+stat stacking in pubs. It gives so much to the hero's mobility. Today I won a game with a TB player on my team, which we would have lost had he gone PT instead of BoT. Defended high ground and ratted our way to victory against a Tide+Silencer+QoP lineup.
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Theres always reasons to switch up item builds if the game calls for it. And one game proves little. Ive seen BoT/Yasha TBs get completely destroyed by enemy clinkz/nyx/storm spirit/similar gankers. Few things piss me off more than actually good players (you'd think they are at least since they got their way pretty high rating somehow) completely derping their item build or following "build X" because they saw/read someone else used it successfully somewhere. Yea good look running around farming with 900hp against a 13min orchid clinkz.
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On October 13 2014 22:49 Kreb wrote:
Theres always reasons to switch up item builds if the game calls for it. And one game proves little. Ive seen BoT/Yasha TBs get completely destroyed by enemy clinkz/nyx/storm spirit/similar gankers. Few things piss me off more than actually good players (you'd think they are at least since they got their way pretty high rating somehow) completely derping their item build or following "build X" because they saw/read someone else used it successfully somewhere. Yea good look running around farming with 900hp against a 13min orchid clinkz.
Well there's nothing much you can do actually except maybe get an earlier manta, but its not like that is a good solution. Or maybe adapt with a defensive ghost. Or have wards. In general you're still gonna follow the general build after a little bit of adaptation.
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I treat TB as a rat hero in the early and midgame, where you just non stop push the safe lane after your pms/treads/yasha/radiance and force the other team to commit a hero there or lose the tower. Meanwhile you are safely farming the jungle and can tp to fights fairly easily, and your team is fighting 4v4.
What is an absurdly early radiance? sub 18mins? sub 20? Because sub 20 is pretty damn easy with the PMS treads yasha build
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On October 13 2014 18:33 DucK- wrote:
If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early.
How does it feel to say something so unabashedly wrong? Several posts above I linked a radiance TB game with 21 creeps a minute. A friend of mine who pl ays TB has an average GPM of 822, which is higher than both Zenoth and Matrice, with his highest game having 21 creeps a minute.
So either you are saying matrice/zenoth are not good, or you have to admit that radiance can farm faster.
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On October 14 2014 10:14 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:33 DucK- wrote:
If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early. How does it feel to say something so unabashedly wrong? Several posts above I linked a radiance TB game with 21 creeps a minute. A friend of mine who pl ays TB has an average GPM of 822, which is higher than both Zenoth and Matrice, with his highest game having 21 creeps a minute. So either you are saying matrice/zenoth are not good, or you have to admit that radiance can farm faster.
i've watched those games, and this is strictly observational. if you want to look at the farm rate pre-and-after radiance purchase and compare it to someone who builds differently, it's very similar.
it's an easier form of farming, yes, yet with that style the rest of your team is suffocated from getting any sort of farm on their own with the exception of ancients and objective gold. is this strictly PvE?
seriously, no offense to the guy, but after a certain point you're just inflating that number for the sake of it. he's farming jungle when the final rax is about to fall instead of ending it while freshly 6-slotted BoTs, double BFLY, Skadi, Radiance, Manta with buyback.
It's like spamming APM at the end of the game when all you've got to do is a-click to win.
There is a reason why these games last so long (40+) and it's because it's a stack that doesn't mind playing a slow game on the back of 4.5v5 and winning eventually through terrorblade.
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radiance is the worst legit tb build
its not bad because tbs so good but you really shouldn't do it
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 On October 14 2014 10:14 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:33 DucK- wrote:
If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early. How does it feel to say something so unabashedly wrong? Several posts above I linked a radiance TB game with 21 creeps a minute. A friend of mine who pl ays TB has an average GPM of 822, which is higher than both Zenoth and Matrice, with his highest game having 21 creeps a minute. So either you are saying matrice/zenoth are not good, or you have to admit that radiance can farm faster.
Well I guess I have to admit that I am wrong. I did my own checks, and yea it seems radiance builds farm faster. But my point still stands that whatever split push shenanigans you try to pull off with radiance tb, zenoth/matrice has proved that you can do it effectively without radiance.
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I'm fine with admitting that either route is viable. There definitely is no question about it, but the radiance build is by no means terrible or inferior which people keep saying. They are different, but the radiance isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.
Also sorry for coming off as a dick, I was in a bad mood.
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Most OP hero in the game. Kills mean nothing, throne means everything. Ridiculous how he was put into CPT's mode in his current state.
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On October 14 2014 16:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I'm fine with admitting that either route is viable. There definitely is no question about it, but the radiance build is by no means terrible or inferior which people keep saying. They are different, but the radiance isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.
Also sorry for coming off as a dick, I was in a bad mood.
Well I don't think that radiance is bad. I just think that it is a higher risk higher reward build. But my opinion is that the higher reward is not as significant as the greater risk faced. Something like diminishing returns, considering that non radiance builds still obtain an absurdly high farm rate and split push potential, while having a much lesser risk due to not needing to grind a timely radiance out. And this aspect is why I feel there's little reason to go for radiance when you can achieve slightly inferior but comparable results with much greater ease.
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its two very different styles of dota, both effective.
this hero is pretty absurd though
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Given that I wouldn't start building the radiance until I have pms, treads and yasha, I think it gives me a good base to build off and I can see after a few minutes if I can finish the radiance or should build something else
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What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup?
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On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup?
It doesn't matter what the match up is. If the enemy lineup has no way of dealing with 3 lanes of constant push, then an online tb wins regardless of how big of a carry you may have.
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On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup?
iirc: If the lineups are welldrafted and everyone is descently farmed medusa should win. She has some of the best skills to deal with illusiontactics. Same as lion because lions sheep and manasuckisucki also kills illusions.
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I'd expect TB should win mid and mid to late game and can contest late game and beyond by ratting 3 lanes at once all game long.
Don't assume just 10 people attack-move each other.
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On October 14 2014 22:59 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup? iirc: If the lineups are welldrafted and everyone is descently farmed medusa should win. She has some of the best skills to deal with illusiontactics. Same as lion because lions sheep and manasuckisucki also kills illusions.
Any fat carry should be able to handle 1 lane of tb push without issues. But handling all 3 lanes? Nope. This is the reason why tb is broken. You can have the fattest of heroes, all the advantage, but if tb is online and your lineup can't defend tb split push in all 3 lanes, then tb pretty much wins the game by himself.
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TB wins no question even if they fight he just a moves other heroes and on 30% sunders medusa and her tankines goes to waste... this hero seriously needs rework!
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On October 14 2014 23:59 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 22:59 govie wrote:On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup? iirc: If the lineups are welldrafted and everyone is descently farmed medusa should win. She has some of the best skills to deal with illusiontactics. Same as lion because lions sheep and manasuckisucki also kills illusions. Any fat carry should be able to handle 1 lane of tb push without issues. But handling all 3 lanes? Nope. This is the reason why tb is broken. You can have the fattest of heroes, all the advantage, but if tb is online and your lineup can't defend tb split push in all 3 lanes, then tb pretty much wins the game by himself.
My answer is based on the skills medusa has to deal with illusions, not execution or draft dependant stuff. Your argument is based on the assumption that terrorblade can reach a stage in every game, where he can push all three lanes and lock the enemy in there base. I think if that happens in a game, the game was lost before he even began doing that tactic.
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United States15275 Posts
I've seen a lot of Lion + Enchantress in response to TB first pick. I don't know how well they deal with the pushing lanes in lategame, but the strategy seems to work wonders up until that point.
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Lion is a great counter pick because he offers 2 forms of lockdown, 2 forms of instant illusion death, and his ult is incredible for killing tb early game.
I tried the non radiance build last night, and it definitely has its merits. You can put a lot more pressure on the other team from minute 13-22ish compared to radiance build, which is great if you need more early game impact.
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On October 15 2014 01:01 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 23:59 DucK- wrote:On October 14 2014 22:59 govie wrote:On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup? iirc: If the lineups are welldrafted and everyone is descently farmed medusa should win. She has some of the best skills to deal with illusiontactics. Same as lion because lions sheep and manasuckisucki also kills illusions. Any fat carry should be able to handle 1 lane of tb push without issues. But handling all 3 lanes? Nope. This is the reason why tb is broken. You can have the fattest of heroes, all the advantage, but if tb is online and your lineup can't defend tb split push in all 3 lanes, then tb pretty much wins the game by himself. My answer is based on the skills medusa has to deal with illusions, not execution or draft dependant stuff. Your argument is based on the assumption that terrorblade can reach a stage in every game, where he can push all three lanes and lock the enemy in there base. I think if that happens in a game, the game was lost before he even began doing that tactic.
Well the thing is that it is not that hard to reach that stage. Terrorblade farms absurdly fast, and you don't need a lot of farm to be farming both the jungle and a lane early on. As you get a little fatter, keeping 2 lanes pushed isn't even a problem, and eventually you can push all 3 lanes. Again you don't need huge farm on TB to accomplish that.
Sure medusa can deal with illusions well, but she can only defend 1 lane of it. Alone Medusa is hardly a counter to TB. She needs other allies that can also deal with the hero.
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You probably don't wanna play dusa in to terrorblade. You'll lose in 30 mins.
Your best bet is farming a legion on a team with a storm and elder Titan or something. Good supports are lion and lockdown in general.
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On October 15 2014 03:30 ahw wrote:
You probably don't wanna play dusa in to terrorblade. You'll lose in 30 mins.
Your best bet is farming a legion on a team with a storm and elder Titan or something. Good supports are lion and lockdown in general.
I believe thats questionable/debateable. If you look at the 6.82 "datdotadata", you will see that the gametime on terrorblade is slightly longer then medusa or atleast similar and that medusas winrate is above 60% and TB's winrate is 47,5%. On dotabuff you can see that at amateur terrorblade also has a lower winrate then medusa so the proscene isnt an exception here. The myth that medusa is "ultra ultra late game" seems "myth busted" as soon as you address her two weaknesses in the draft.
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I dunno how valid the winrate comparison really is, on LAN he's 7-3 ( which is a monstrous 70%). Sure it's a more limited data pool, but it kinda eliminates results that only come about because Moscow 5 can pick whatever they want against EG and still pull out the loss. Also, I think teams are more likely to let broken heroes fall into the hands of bad teams. Medusa may still well be broken, but we'll have to see more of her in the hands of the best teams (she has 1 6.82 LAN game) to be totally sure. Also, TB may have a typically later game than Dusa, but I dunno if that means anything. "Who wins late" discussions are fun, but in practice it is pretty much always determinate on lineup and on unpredictable things like misplays and errors.
On the subject of TB, the biggest problem with the hero seems to be that a hero shouldn't be allowed to be that good without items, and still epic with them, or, in other words, he doesn't really seem to have a power curve. Strong early physical DPS is fine, so is strong late game DPS, but together they kinda create a broken mess of a hero. I dunno if he needs a rework though, I think a strong nerf on metamorphosis should suffice, something like a huge increase in mana cost and a decrease in the damage it gives would probably be enough. And/or scaling the damage taken on his illusions per level. Sunder seems fine to me, lots of carries have abilities like that (time lapse, reincarnation, fucking song of the siren). It may be a problem when viewed with the rest of the hero, but if that's the case a numbers tweak usually seems to suffice. I'm not icefrog though, so I don't really know. Lastly, I'm not sure that the whole unstoppable late game rat monster is really a huge problem, lots of heroes are like that and they're fine, he just shouldn't push towers like he does at 20 minutes if he wants to be able to do that as well.
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On October 15 2014 01:01 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 23:59 DucK- wrote:On October 14 2014 22:59 govie wrote:On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup? iirc: If the lineups are welldrafted and everyone is descently farmed medusa should win. She has some of the best skills to deal with illusiontactics. Same as lion because lions sheep and manasuckisucki also kills illusions. Any fat carry should be able to handle 1 lane of tb push without issues. But handling all 3 lanes? Nope. This is the reason why tb is broken. You can have the fattest of heroes, all the advantage, but if tb is online and your lineup can't defend tb split push in all 3 lanes, then tb pretty much wins the game by himself. My answer is based on the skills medusa has to deal with illusions, not execution or draft dependant stuff. Your argument is based on the assumption that terrorblade can reach a stage in every game, where he can push all three lanes and lock the enemy in there base. I think if that happens in a game, the game was lost before he even began doing that tactic.
medusa is rly shitty at dealing with illusions....! wtf
lion is one of the safest picks against him.... manadrain+hex both kill illu
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On October 15 2014 06:12 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 01:01 govie wrote:On October 14 2014 23:59 DucK- wrote:On October 14 2014 22:59 govie wrote:On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup? iirc: If the lineups are welldrafted and everyone is descently farmed medusa should win. She has some of the best skills to deal with illusiontactics. Same as lion because lions sheep and manasuckisucki also kills illusions. Any fat carry should be able to handle 1 lane of tb push without issues. But handling all 3 lanes? Nope. This is the reason why tb is broken. You can have the fattest of heroes, all the advantage, but if tb is online and your lineup can't defend tb split push in all 3 lanes, then tb pretty much wins the game by himself. My answer is based on the skills medusa has to deal with illusions, not execution or draft dependant stuff. Your argument is based on the assumption that terrorblade can reach a stage in every game, where he can push all three lanes and lock the enemy in there base. I think if that happens in a game, the game was lost before he even began doing that tactic. medusa is rly shitty at dealing with illusions....! wtf lion is one of the safest picks against him.... manadrain+hex both kill illu
I base that one the ultimate that kills illusions, the nuke is aoe & she can hit 5 targets at once. I didnt say medusa is good at stopping terrorblade or a naga splitpush. But in a teamfight, i dont see a reason why medusa cant win, can you please explain why she is bad before terrorblade gets 6 slotted?
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United States47024 Posts
Because TB isn't going to teamfight against you, he's just going to trade lanes with you if you ever try to force high ground.
Medusa's skills simply make no contribution to actually killing towers, while TB who pops Meta and gets to keep multiple Conjure illusions just crushes them. There's basically never a point in the game where Medusa can base-race a TB unless she has an incredibly large item advantage (which won't happen if TB plays well).
The only way Medusa will break a lane is if TB gets shut down really hard, or if her team catches TB being stupid, neither of which she herself makes any direct contribution to.
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And he raxes way faster than a Medusa.
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he also farms 3x as fast as dusa
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On October 15 2014 06:24 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 06:12 ChunderBoy wrote:On October 15 2014 01:01 govie wrote:On October 14 2014 23:59 DucK- wrote:On October 14 2014 22:59 govie wrote:On October 14 2014 22:09 Terrorbladder wrote:
What do you think about the TB vs Medusa matchup? iirc: If the lineups are welldrafted and everyone is descently farmed medusa should win. She has some of the best skills to deal with illusiontactics. Same as lion because lions sheep and manasuckisucki also kills illusions. Any fat carry should be able to handle 1 lane of tb push without issues. But handling all 3 lanes? Nope. This is the reason why tb is broken. You can have the fattest of heroes, all the advantage, but if tb is online and your lineup can't defend tb split push in all 3 lanes, then tb pretty much wins the game by himself. My answer is based on the skills medusa has to deal with illusions, not execution or draft dependant stuff. Your argument is based on the assumption that terrorblade can reach a stage in every game, where he can push all three lanes and lock the enemy in there base. I think if that happens in a game, the game was lost before he even began doing that tactic. medusa is rly shitty at dealing with illusions....! wtf lion is one of the safest picks against him.... manadrain+hex both kill illu I base that one the ultimate that kills illusions, the nuke is aoe & she can hit 5 targets at once. I didnt say medusa is good at stopping terrorblade or a naga splitpush. But in a teamfight, i dont see a reason why medusa cant win, can you please explain why she is bad before terrorblade gets 6 slotted?
She dont win 1v1 vs terrorblade, terrorblade is not a teamfight hero and should not be around his other 4 team8s , this is common thing all have in their brain they still think he should go with team, he should not.
Sometimes it happens and depend on other picks, and very few situations.
But no a tb should not be in teamfight, then they dont know how to play tb, tb forces ppl to back and defend while other on team defend and push another lane or take a fight force them to fight u while he takes towers,Raxes, and maybe after goes back to base.
making the fight favoribly for you.
and if tb does eveyrthing right and no retard team8s, there is only cores that can stop a tb splitpush midgame/late.
Wich means, that its important heroes that have to retreat to stop it, wich means if u have a clockwerk or anything that can intiate with blinkdagger you can pick a really easy 4vs2 4vs3 fight.
Or have BB stop tps,lose the fight all 4 bb tb takes raxx he tp back you def mid, gg.
To bad few know how to play around tb sadly or splitpush in general.
and they "Think" they know how to splitpush but they dont.
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Casual Yasha into Skadi or straight Manta after Travels?
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On October 15 2014 10:50 Terrorbladder wrote:
Casual Yasha into Skadi or straight Manta after Travels?
i usually go off PT > PMS > Yasha > Manta > Skadi > BoT > Butterfly or BKB depending on the other team's lineup.
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On October 15 2014 10:50 Terrorbladder wrote:
Casual Yasha into Skadi or straight Manta after Travels?
I think the order between manta, skadi and travels mainly depends on the enemies lineup. If they have good pick-off go for skadi after yasha for the early health, unless you really want the disspell off manta (against orchid for example). If they are going to push fast, you will probably want something like manta->travel to pressure their lanes hard.
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On October 15 2014 10:50 Terrorbladder wrote:
Casual Yasha into Skadi or straight Manta after Travels?
As said below vs orchid or spells that silences or make you a very easy gank target, go manta.
Manta is like 90% of the time the way to go due to the common picks of heroes right now, bot is very good to have on the hero but not a must to rush,depends how well other team push down your towers and your 4man teams teamfight presence is.
if very travels is good to go, but otherwise fast pt aquila makes u farm jungle very fast. and give your illus, early a very farmrate in jungle while you farm in the lane, or you in jungle while some in specific camps in the jungle.
anyway its about reading opponents gpm what they have what they will get depending on your timing. and keep in mind the faster your illus can solo camps in the jungle the better gpm you can get.
Wich means better push better surviability and threat in fights.
so its all about the read.
also important note is that maxing ult and your first spell is not to wise, in most games going meta maxxed illu maxxed one point in ult and slow. and then just max the stats is often very prefered.
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Typical, just found that one of the last 3 losses of terrorblade against a medusa+lion, seems TB got his farm but still lost anyway, ofcourse i havent watched the game yet, its just one game but fyi : http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=958647703
If the game was so simple that splitpushing and trading lanes with a illusionhero wins games, his winrate should be way higher then it is right now. I find the arguments until now too fluffy to simply accept as truth but im not saying i am confident that i am right either.
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On October 15 2014 16:33 govie wrote:Typical, just found that one of the last 3 losses of terrorblade against a medusa+lion, seems TB got his farm but still lost anyway, ofcourse i havent watched the game yet, its just one game but fyi : http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=958647703If the game was so simple that splitpushing and trading lanes with a illusionhero wins games, his winrate should be way higher then it is right now. I find the arguments until now too fluffy to simply accept as truth but im not saying i am confident that i am right either.
He has 75% winrate for tourneys over 50k$, only 9 3 but 100% pick/ban rate in those tourneys... Maybe datdota missed a few games but you're seriously underestimating the hero. It does not include qualifiers I suppose.
Anyway, here is my question, how do you solve his mana issues? As you want to spam illusions ad manta on CD, I found myself having to go back to base. Sorry if it has already been mentionned but I did not want to dig into the 20 pages of radi vs not radi.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
The stats from manta and skadi should give you a large enough mana pool in mid-late game. Before that, a lot of people get drums.
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On October 15 2014 17:18 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:33 govie wrote:Typical, just found that one of the last 3 losses of terrorblade against a medusa+lion, seems TB got his farm but still lost anyway, ofcourse i havent watched the game yet, its just one game but fyi : http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=958647703If the game was so simple that splitpushing and trading lanes with a illusionhero wins games, his winrate should be way higher then it is right now. I find the arguments until now too fluffy to simply accept as truth but im not saying i am confident that i am right either. He has 75% winrate for tourneys over 50k$, only 9 3 but 100% pick/ban rate in those tourneys... Maybe datdota missed a few games but you're seriously underestimating the hero. It does not include qualifiers I suppose.
I am not underestimating the hero at all, the discussion was about medusa being viable against a terrorblade or not.
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i just had a TB game where i got ganked the entire game by a sand king, LC, PA, and tinker. LC's 1st skill just destroys my illus right away.
my items were usual PT > Yasha > Manta > Skadi > Sell PT for BoT > butterfly.
i think i made a big mistake not getting bkb after skadi.
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On October 15 2014 18:08 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 17:18 nojok wrote:On October 15 2014 16:33 govie wrote:Typical, just found that one of the last 3 losses of terrorblade against a medusa+lion, seems TB got his farm but still lost anyway, ofcourse i havent watched the game yet, its just one game but fyi : http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=958647703If the game was so simple that splitpushing and trading lanes with a illusionhero wins games, his winrate should be way higher then it is right now. I find the arguments until now too fluffy to simply accept as truth but im not saying i am confident that i am right either. He has 75% winrate for tourneys over 50k$, only 9 3 but 100% pick/ban rate in those tourneys... Maybe datdota missed a few games but you're seriously underestimating the hero. It does not include qualifiers I suppose. I am not underestimating the hero at all, the discussion was about medusa being viable against a terrorblade or not.
Well the answer is that like any other farmed carry, Medusa will be able to handle 1 lane of his split pushing illusions fine. And if tb decides to brute force 1 lane or fight with meta +4 illusions all at once, maybe Medusa would do much better than other heroes. But still that doesn't mean Medusa is the solution to tb. It is not as simple as pick x to counter tb.
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Nothing more satisfying the enemy team base racing against a tb.
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On October 15 2014 19:21 Fwizzz wrote:
Nothing more satisfying the enemy team base racing against a tb.
Well it is pretty sad if tb raxes faster while the enemy team struggles to destroy any buildings despite being way ahead in farm and ends up in a rax disadvantage
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On October 15 2014 19:21 Fwizzz wrote:
Nothing more satisfying the enemy team base racing against a tb.
idk, for me it's the feeling of carrying everyone else against an extremely fed carry from the other team.
![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/cddqj/bd74e3795e.png)
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On October 15 2014 17:27 ahswtini wrote:
The stats from manta and skadi should give you a large enough mana pool in mid-late game. Before that, a lot of people get drums.
I like aquilla more unless you really have to fight. It's cheaper and superior in terms of damage output and mana regen. I feel drums just unnecessarily delays bigger items. Same for treads, even though treads are even worse since you have 950g lost on your illusions once you get travels.
On October 15 2014 16:33 govie wrote:Typical, just found that one of the last 3 losses of terrorblade against a medusa+lion, seems TB got his farm but still lost anyway, ofcourse i havent watched the game yet, its just one game but fyi : http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=958647703If the game was so simple that splitpushing and trading lanes with a illusionhero wins games, his winrate should be way higher then it is right now. I find the arguments until now too fluffy to simply accept as truth but im not saying i am confident that i am right either.
I have watched three games of TB played and every single time tb won the game, if you swapped him with any other hero they would have lost. I think I played him twice in the current version and pretty much both times won the game solo. Not because I played amazing, but because the amount of pressure TB can put on one or two lanes is crazy. He is like Naga with Lycans damage to buildings on illusions. Which means that he combines the strengths of two of the most dominant heroes of the last patch.
Unless there is a nyx or a fat clinkz or at least a bh on the map he's freaking broken. Support bh+something global is probably the way to go. Roaming support duo with nyx or bh and a heavy nuker like swm or lion could work wonders.
Lion is good in the laning stage and in teamfights against him, but if tb plays right he should never be forced to teamfight. He is however really good at base defense.
Duza is pretty terrible against him imo, yes she can play turret on one tower, but tb can just push two lanes at the same time. Also if duza is back at base that means a shitload of farm is not fighting at your base and tb will at some point do steady damage to buildings anyways.
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The Sunder cast time this patch also helped him tremendously. He has a much better time winning manfights in tight situations.
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On October 16 2014 00:10 Terrorbladder wrote:
The Sunder cast time this patch also helped him tremendously. He has a much better time winning manfights in tight situations.
Its kind of funny they thought he needed a buff before getting added to CM. With how game breaking that skill is, that cast time was his weakness
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Illusions take 425% damage from 300%
Demon Form movement speed become 290 from 315
Sunder no longer has a ministun
Is he kill?
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On October 16 2014 02:12 Terrorbladder wrote:
Illusions take 425% damage from 300%
Demon Form movement speed become 290 from 315
Sunder no longer has a ministun
Is he kill?
yes
he only had 2 skills and they just got massive nerfed
you cant kill anyone anymore with meta because they will outrun you ( cause your refraction is crap unless maxed)
your illusions cant jungle anymore so you have to do it yourself while sending illusions to lane which will die in 2 hits from anyone cuz 425% damage
someone will say sunder was buffed but i disagree, 75 range wont change much but mini stun could save your life/kill someone
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On October 16 2014 02:12 Terrorbladder wrote:
Illusions take 425% damage from 300%
Demon Form movement speed become 290 from 315
Sunder no longer has a ministun
Is he kill?
making his movement speed drop when in demon form is probably a good idea. leaves him at least somewhat vulnerable. the illusions change i dunno, they still retain their insane damage so his split push/lane farming will still be strong.
you can still do the old lane with the illusion and jungle with tb thing if the lane isn't too contested.
sunder now cant cancel tps so people can just insta tp away from you
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Bring back Soul Steal on TB. Combine Conjure and Meta into 1 skill. Give him Zeal or whatever. Ay just give back Soul Steal..
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Rofl, I'd love to get Zeal back.
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Could change the items a bit, maybe s&y/diffusal blade and less radiances or something like that.
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diffusal doesn't offer anything. his illusions do enough damage still.
its the same ol -> bots/manta/skaadi or treads/yasha/radiance/skaadi
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On October 16 2014 03:30 govie wrote:
Could change the items a bit, maybe s&y/diffusal blade and less radiances or something like that.
The Kaibutsi build. I'm 9-0 with it. It's a very stable build, and let's face it, if you get to the late game you've won - even if you have two somewhat slot inefficient items.
On another note I find it somewhat amusing that the anti-adblock banner tells me "Don't be like Terrorblade. Help support LiquidDota by disabling Adblock". Why would I not want to be like Terrorblade?
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TB is still very good, just more balanced. I have always used the PMS/Treads/Yasha safelane, then jungle the TB lane the illusions to great effect, which is largely unaffected by this change.
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On October 16 2014 04:49 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 03:30 govie wrote:
Could change the items a bit, maybe s&y/diffusal blade and less radiances or something like that. The Kaibutsi build. I'm 9-0 with it. It's a very stable build, and let's face it, if you get to the late game you've won - even if you have two somewhat slot inefficient items. On another note I find it somewhat amusing that the anti-adblock banner tells me "Don't be like Terrorblade. Help support LiquidDota by disabling Adblock". Why would I not want to be like Terrorblade?
Your a kaibutsu yourself! what a kaibutsu?
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i prefered melee form tb anyway. at late game atleast.
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On October 16 2014 05:15 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 04:49 ZerG~LegenD wrote:On October 16 2014 03:30 govie wrote:
Could change the items a bit, maybe s&y/diffusal blade and less radiances or something like that. The Kaibutsi build. I'm 9-0 with it. It's a very stable build, and let's face it, if you get to the late game you've won - even if you have two somewhat slot inefficient items. On another note I find it somewhat amusing that the anti-adblock banner tells me "Don't be like Terrorblade. Help support LiquidDota by disabling Adblock". Why would I not want to be like Terrorblade? Your a kaibutsu yourself! what a kaibutsu?
This guy. Used to be top 10 on the Eu leaderboards.
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On October 16 2014 05:37 ChunderBoy wrote:
i prefered melee form tb anyway. at late game atleast.
Why is that beesa?
could you elaborate please? Or is it just a visual thing ? etc.
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my bet is that in melee form the cd for manta is much shorter, which makes your sieging much better, especially since you pretty much need to be in melee range to siege t3 towers due to highground
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Melee form has 1.5 BAT, ranged form has 1.6.
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melee: 33% damage, take 350% damage, 1.5 BAT, 32% quelling, 35 sec cd
ranged: 28% damage, take 400% damage, 1.6 BAT, 12% quelling, +80dmg, 50 sec cd
melee illusions stick to targets better too i guess. at rly late game the 35sec vs 50sec cd makes a huge difference
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wow i'm dumb I never knew that melee and ranged manta have different cds
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On October 16 2014 02:22 Churrass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 02:12 Terrorbladder wrote:
Illusions take 425% damage from 300%
Demon Form movement speed become 290 from 315
Sunder no longer has a ministun
Is he kill? yes he only had 2 skills and they just got massive nerfed you cant kill anyone anymore with meta because they will outrun you ( cause your refraction is crap unless maxed) your illusions cant jungle anymore so you have to do it yourself while sending illusions to lane which will die in 2 hits from anyone cuz 425% damage someone will say sunder was buffed but i disagree, 75 range wont change much but mini stun could save your life/kill someone
bullshit, illusions still clear camps if u go PT,aquila. plus maxing stats and not maxing sunder and reflection.
Sure if u go super greedy radi build yes then they die, if pt,aquila no they wont at lvl 8-9 they can start solo farm more or less.
Will take maybe two illus at some camps thou and once yasha manta, pretty mucb gonna be doable.
So no he is far from dead.
keep in mind that TB has very high base MS so your meta can still chase.
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people keep saying rip jungle tb but ive had no problems jungling this hero in my rmm games
like sure its a bit harder and u have to tank with ur hero a lot more than ud like to throughout but even if u get double centaur in ur medium camps u just kill small camp suicide to large camp while hopefully getting lvl 2 from a creep dying and come back meta to kill it and jungle as usual
idk i think tbs still tb but ur noncomittal illusion siegings not gonna work against teams with like nukes
maybe another skadi after first bflys legit now idk
tho i aint tried going just 3x wraith i usually go 2x wraith aquila boots yasha bots manta/sny
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On October 16 2014 10:16 ChunderBoy wrote:
melee: 33% damage, take 350% damage, 1.5 BAT, 32% quelling, 35 sec cd
ranged: 28% damage, take 400% damage, 1.6 BAT, 12% quelling, +80dmg, 50 sec cd
melee illusions stick to targets better too i guess. at rly late game the 35sec vs 50sec cd makes a huge difference
THanks, appreciate the time.
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On October 16 2014 02:53 DucK- wrote:
Bring back Soul Steal on TB. Combine Conjure and Meta into 1 skill. Give him Zeal or whatever. Ay just give back Soul Steal..
Yikes though, that would bring back the real old school jungle tb afk 30 minutes plz
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Zeal was a stupid skill ._. Soul steal (non-channeling) was okay lol
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On October 16 2014 13:56 icystorage wrote:
Zeal was a stupid skill ._. Soul steal (non-channeling) was okay lol
Yea zeal was stupid. But soul steal? At least it was an interactive spell :D just make it don't work against creeps or something.
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Pros still buying Radiance and no casual Yasha on TB, not sure if I should laugh or cry.
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On October 16 2014 13:20 small_farah wrote:
people keep saying rip jungle tb but ive had no problems jungling this hero in my rmm games
like sure its a bit harder and u have to tank with ur hero a lot more than ud like to throughout but even if u get double centaur in ur medium camps u just kill small camp suicide to large camp while hopefully getting lvl 2 from a creep dying and come back meta to kill it and jungle as usual
idk i think tbs still tb but ur noncomittal illusion siegings not gonna work against teams with like nukes
maybe another skadi after first bflys legit now idk
tho i aint tried going just 3x wraith i usually go 2x wraith aquila boots yasha bots manta/sny
If you send 4 spread out illusions they still have to use so so so many nukes. The skadi/bfly thing doesnt change much: you go 3-1 butterflies and 1-3 skadis (4 of those items in total) depending on factors such as nuke damage, how many mkbs they have and so on.
I personally tested stout qb in jungle (used to go matrice's circlet circlet qb) and there are no problems at all.
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I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage.
Going PMS+Wraith+Aquila early should give you PMS+Aquila+Yasha+Wraith+QB+Boots at around 12 minutes. Then SnY+BoT at around 18, Skadi at ~23 and Butterfly around 29. Its really crazy strong at my low MMR (3,9) even though your entire team will flame you for picking jungle TB until you win the game.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage.
Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T
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On October 20 2014 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage. Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T
I didn't think it was viable until I saw Matrice run it multiple games. It is pretty amazing at least at my low level.
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On October 20 2014 04:14 HopLight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage. Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T I didn't think it was viable until I saw Matrice run it multiple games. It is pretty amazing at least at my low level.
It was viable at all (pub) levels.
Matrice solod his way to 6K solo MMR. I copied the build for a while, it's quite similar to Lycan jungle: your team can fuck up all lanes and you still have a chance to bring it back.
I think it went qb triple wraith band, yasha, BoT, sange and you splitpush like a madman. T1 offlane is an easy kill when you have some lvls in Meta.
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On October 20 2014 05:19 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 04:14 HopLight wrote:On October 20 2014 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage. Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T I didn't think it was viable until I saw Matrice run it multiple games. It is pretty amazing at least at my low level. It was viable at all (pub) levels. Matrice solod his way to 6K solo MMR. I copied the build for a while, it's quite similar to Lycan jungle: your team can fuck up all lanes and you still have a chance to bring it back. I think it went qb triple wraith band, yasha, BoT, sange and you splitpush like a madman. T1 offlane is an easy kill when you have some lvls in Meta.
Interesting. How do you sustain your hp during jungling? do you start with W or E skill? no pms?
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TB lvl1 jungle is the new Lycan, imo.
If the other team doesn't punish it in the first 5 minutes, you just win. And unless you hit a stack or a really nasty aggressive duo/tri, nobody's going to punish it. In fact, when there's one on the other team, the most common teammate response is "lol TB can't jungle why would I bother ganking" into "omg how is TB so big" into getting stomped.
Eventually people might learn that they need to hunt him, but for now it's a freewin just like when Kwark made that Lycan guide. Admittedly I haven't done it since the illusion nerf.
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Won against TB picker. I just pick Lion. He got free farm and two early kills, but I saw him building Power Treads, so not that worried. He thinks all those illus and metamorph make him a good fighting hero, but in every fight he just gets burst down.
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On October 20 2014 07:40 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 05:19 Laurens wrote:On October 20 2014 04:14 HopLight wrote:On October 20 2014 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage. Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T I didn't think it was viable until I saw Matrice run it multiple games. It is pretty amazing at least at my low level. It was viable at all (pub) levels. Matrice solod his way to 6K solo MMR. I copied the build for a while, it's quite similar to Lycan jungle: your team can fuck up all lanes and you still have a chance to bring it back. I think it went qb triple wraith band, yasha, BoT, sange and you splitpush like a madman. T1 offlane is an easy kill when you have some lvls in Meta. Interesting. How do you sustain your hp during jungling? do you start with W or E skill? no pms?
Start with W, spawn illusion at +6 seconds go towards medium camp, spawn another illusion when off cooldown and you should arrive with 2 illusions to medium camp and the possibility to spawn another one during. Let your illusions tank some of the damage and you are actually able to clear out even Centaurs (although Centaurs will get you low enough that you should take small then suicide). With E+W at level 2 you can easily clear out any large camp after which you suicide to creeps. In general depending on spawn luck etc you suicide 2-3 times during the early phase for that quick fountain trip, after that your illusions will be able to tank almost all the damage.
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On October 20 2014 14:54 Terrorbladder wrote:
Won against TB picker. I just pick Lion. He got free farm and two early kills, but I saw him building Power Treads, so not that worried. He thinks all those illus and metamorph make him a good fighting hero, but in every fight he just gets burst down.
Lion was one of heroes my team went to for the 6.80 TB, 2 instant illusion killers, and the burst you'd need for the real one.
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On October 20 2014 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage. Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T
i personally think its a more effective way to play the hero in a pub environment
tb gets fucked by pretty much any aggro dual lane and junglings the only way you can guarantee yourself the initial farm you need to play the hero
its not like spectre or something that can recover from farming safely and getting haunt kills to help your team create space for yourself, and can possibly do things in 2v2 laning situations or other carries that can maybe contribute to winning their lane outright. i mean i guess he has meta and his q but esp with the movespeed nerf idk it just feels that any decent dual lane will just run at u and fuck ur shit up.
maybe im wrong because im underestimating tbs laning potential but i only lane that hero if i can guarantee myself a 3v1 laning situation because fuck 2v2 or even 3v2 im too autistic to blame anyone other than myself for missing cs
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But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster.
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On October 21 2014 01:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster.
Not if they pick accordingly.
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On October 21 2014 02:01 FuzioNda1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 01:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster. Not if they pick accordingly.
Last three times i picked TB and tried to go jungle (Never was 5ht pick, 3rd and once 4th).
"I wont solo support"
"Only 1 support? Gg I afk"
"OMG TB woods, report and muted"
this is 4.8k USE.
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On October 21 2014 07:28 DV G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 02:01 FuzioNda1337 wrote:On October 21 2014 01:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster. Not if they pick accordingly. Last three times i picked TB and tried to go jungle (Never was 5ht pick, 3rd and once 4th). "I wont solo support" "Only 1 support? Gg I afk" "OMG TB woods, report and muted" this is 4.8k USE.
in their defense, playing solo support does, in fact, suck. i generally hate people who pick greedy junglers in solo q, do it with a party
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On October 21 2014 00:12 small_farah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage. Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T its not like spectre or something that can recover from farming safely and getting haunt kills to help your team create space for yourself, and can possibly do things in 2v2 laning situations or other carries that can maybe contribute to winning their lane outright. i mean i guess he has meta and his q but esp with the movespeed nerf idk it just feels that any decent dual lane will just run at u and fuck ur shit up.
....did you seriously just say that spectre is stronger than tb in lane...?
On October 21 2014 10:12 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 07:28 DV G wrote:On October 21 2014 02:01 FuzioNda1337 wrote:On October 21 2014 01:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster. Not if they pick accordingly. Last three times i picked TB and tried to go jungle (Never was 5ht pick, 3rd and once 4th). "I wont solo support" "Only 1 support? Gg I afk" "OMG TB woods, report and muted" this is 4.8k USE. in their defense, playing solo support does, in fact, suck. i generally hate people who pick greedy junglers in solo q, do it with a party
Also yeah the main problem with jungle tb is the pressure it puts on the support, and the fact that you instalose if the other team is smart enough to punish it. If they don't, and if you can convince the support not to report you and afk, you pretty much instawin so I guess it goes both ways.
Again, exactly like dog-in-tree Lycan.
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one of my rules of thumb is to never start off jungling unless ure enigma/chen/ench
i have never even jungled a lycan in 10 years of dota... i always went to a lane to farm
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United States47024 Posts
On October 21 2014 10:22 Belisarius wrote:
Again, exactly like dog-in-tree Lycan.
Lycan at least makes it back for his supports if he properly contributes to breaking the T1 or is able to get Rosh in--so if he does well he generates enough gold for a solo support to be able to manage.
TB does his own shit for the rest of the game just like a regular laning TB does.
Also, it's virtually never the case where having 2 laning supports would give you less overall control of the lanes than putting someone in the jungle. Jungling forces someone to be away from the lanes which always weakens your lanes as a whole (in exchange for farm on the jungler). The strong junglers have tools to turn their farm advantage back into gold/XP for their lanes, but this isn't true of TB.
On October 21 2014 02:01 FuzioNda1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 01:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster. Not if they pick accordingly.
This logic is backwards. You pick a greedy jungler if your opponent's lanes are weak enough that your teammates can win without you. You don't force a TB jungle then MAKE your team try to pick strong lanes to make up for it, because if the enemy picks strong lanes to counter your greedy jungle, it's not possible for your team to pick heroes that can 4v5 the lanes.
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Well, yeah. Plus its not nice. People like to have fun when playing games, and being stuck solo support when you are running a greedy lineup is often like giving yourself a 50 minute root canal. Save that stuff for your party mmr.
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Yeah I mean it's a fairly dickish thing to do and it's certainly not optimal, but as far as "viable in pubs" goes it functions as well as a lot of other things.
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How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup?
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On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup?
Tb wins on even grounds.
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United States2186 Posts
Pre 682c TB wrecked them both; farms faster, split pushes more powerfully than naga but less safely and can't control all 3 lanes in a 1v9 game like naga can, and AM is just worse at everything other than being safe to fight earlier. His illusions beat naga illusions easily in a manfight so Naga wouldn't be able to split push efficiently. AM is weak in those lategame brawls vs the extreme lategamers and appropriately gets obliterated by TB in fights as he does no damage to TB and has no armor, particularly if TB has meta and 2 illusions up before AM can blink in.
But then again TB gets punished a lot more now for doing suboptimal builds so maybe things don't go quite as smoothly in those weird illusion battles. It was amazing the level of retardation in item builds you could get away with before, but that seems to kill you now.
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Just shadowblade dagon every game.
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On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup?
I think it depends. AM has usage in a deathball push and while he isnt good against tb himself, he can clean up the rest. I can see something like am+dp be effective against TB. That being said am sucks before he gets abyssal in a direct fight because of sunder and high basic armor, I'd rather pick a pa than am vs TB.
I think TB out-Nagas Naga. The things that Naga does better are initiate (i.e. Rosh) and get away, but 4 protect 1 lineups are rarely balanced around ganking, which makes the safer aspect less important. The initiation might be nice, but tb doesnt really need to commit and can solo-rosh, so the rosh-control isnt that helpful because you dont catch out the entire team.
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On October 25 2014 13:54 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup? I think it depends. AM has usage in a deathball push and while he isnt good against tb himself, he can clean up the rest. I can see something like am+dp be effective against TB. That being said am sucks before he gets abyssal in a direct fight because of sunder and high basic armor, I'd rather pick a pa than am vs TB. I think TB out-Nagas Naga. The things that Naga does better are initiate (i.e. Rosh) and get away, but 4 protect 1 lineups are rarely balanced around ganking, which makes the safer aspect less important. The initiation might be nice, but tb doesnt really need to commit and can solo-rosh, so the rosh-control isnt that helpful because you dont catch out the entire team.
u might be underestimating how good mana void is against tb
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are ppl seriously here talking about who is the better 1v1 carry vs carry on TB and AM ? does it even matter?
Everything about that depends, who is leading gpm?`
how well did your team play vs their team, what picks did U get vs what picks did they get and a lot of other questions, if we now gonna go down and have a 1v1 conversation.
We can just might aswell start it with just pick void and chrono and beat the living crap out of the target before he can do anything
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Assuming I'm having freefarm on lane (plus taking medium and easy camps), having 90cs on 10min, a Yasha, Treads, Qb and Aquila, should I complete a Manta on ~14min or go for Bkb on ~16min and then Manta?
I've read on the forums that Yasha Bkb is better than Manta, since you don't really have mana to spam Manta consistently. What do you guys think?
(assuming a not obvious scenario in which they have 11 stuns or something, ofc)
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if your team wants to fight, get bkb. if you are commited to split push, go manta.
generally delaying your bkb for as long as possible is good. you want to make the most out of the 10/9/8s charge
if your farm is that good you can always go for skaadi and keep the yasha
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Every i got a TB in the ennemy team i just go tri aggro or strong dual to make his life a hell, he is so weak early game, he can be easily force out of farm/xp range you just need to bait the metamorphosis
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On November 20 2014 16:25 Silho wrote:
Assuming I'm having freefarm on lane (plus taking medium and easy camps), having 90cs on 10min, a Yasha, Treads, Qb and Aquila, should I complete a Manta on ~14min or go for Bkb on ~16min and then Manta?
I've read on the forums that Yasha Bkb is better than Manta, since you don't really have mana to spam Manta consistently. What do you guys think?
(assuming a not obvious scenario in which they have 11 stuns or something, ofc)
Bkb only if you really need to fight, of which it means you probably have loss the game already.
Finish skadi, finish manta, then consider bkb in most situations.
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Manta -> Skadi should always be the core. You want to avoid all fights except for free kills until that point. Going manta first isn't bad because even though you can't 5v5 you can threaten towers by yourself as soon as you finish manta (hopefully ~16)
tb lives or dies by his ability to finish skadi at 20-25 minutes
I also like to rotate to the jungle very early and give supports the farm they need to buy you time.
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On October 26 2014 02:40 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2014 13:54 Blackfeather wrote:On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup? I think it depends. AM has usage in a deathball push and while he isnt good against tb himself, he can clean up the rest. I can see something like am+dp be effective against TB. That being said am sucks before he gets abyssal in a direct fight because of sunder and high basic armor, I'd rather pick a pa than am vs TB. I think TB out-Nagas Naga. The things that Naga does better are initiate (i.e. Rosh) and get away, but 4 protect 1 lineups are rarely balanced around ganking, which makes the safer aspect less important. The initiation might be nice, but tb doesnt really need to commit and can solo-rosh, so the rosh-control isnt that helpful because you dont catch out the entire team. u might be underestimating how good mana void is against tb
I can see why it could be useful, TB has a high mana pool and low hp, but TB actually never needs to spend more than like 400-450 mana unless he uses sunder lvl 1, right? I mean meta+illu+illu+manta costs 375. So AM needs to get out quite a lot of hits.
But i can see what you mean, if you mana void him early on you get rid of his illus. TB himself is only half as scary.
On November 20 2014 16:25 Silho wrote:
Assuming I'm having freefarm on lane (plus taking medium and easy camps), having 90cs on 10min, a Yasha, Treads, Qb and Aquila, should I complete a Manta on ~14min or go for Bkb on ~16min and then Manta?
I've read on the forums that Yasha Bkb is better than Manta, since you don't really have mana to spam Manta consistently. What do you guys think?
(assuming a not obvious scenario in which they have 11 stuns or something, ofc)
Standard before the last patch was brown boots->yasha->skadi->manta->travels if you have freefarm and unless you want manta for safety.
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Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable.
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On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable.
Most people these days don't go radiance on TB - it can be okay, but you can still effectively split push with just high stats illusions, and you can fight a lot better earlier on (manta/skadi comes online a lot sooner), which can help turn some fights / win games. Plus, TB destroys towers super easily without going radiance. It can work, yeah, but you get map control anyways in the midgame with this hero barring you aren't too far behind.
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On November 23 2014 03:03 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable. Most people these days don't go radiance on TB - it can be okay, but you can still effectively split push with just high stats illusions, and you can fight a lot better earlier on (manta/skadi comes online a lot sooner), which can help turn some fights / win games. Plus, TB destroys towers super easily without going radiance. It can work, yeah, but you get map control anyways in the midgame with this hero barring you aren't too far behind.
Makes sense! Thanks for the breakdown.
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On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable.
It's very very good. A friend of mine does it and you creep like a monster. he usually 6 slots on TB around the 30 minute mark with 17-22 creeps a minute. It let's you farm way more than the stats items. For those who question it, I doubt you can get much past 16/17 creeps a minute without the radiance, while getting that should be relatively easy with the radiance if you have decent farming patterns. Mixing an aquila in there helps a lot too. So usually bb, PMS/Aquila/quelling/yasha --> radiance. Get the treads if you need to, but get the boots of travel after manta or skadi. The travel's let you farm obscenely fast with the radiance.
The general way you farm is 2x lanes + jungle, TP to other side of map, 2x lanes + jungle then TP back. and repeat. Then once you are slotted you send your conjure illusions to A move up a lane to the barracks while farming with just the manta illusions and your hero.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/119079442/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
Here is his match history. He's posted in this thread under the name Ver I think.
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If you are getting 17 creeps a minute with radiance TB, chances are you can build most of any builds on th and still win / have good creeps per minute.
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On November 23 2014 05:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable. It's very very good. A friend of mine does it and you creep like a monster. he usually 6 slots on TB around the 30 minute mark with 17-22 creeps a minute. It let's you farm way more than the stats items. For those who question it, I doubt you can get much past 16/17 creeps a minute without the radiance, while getting that should be relatively easy with the radiance if you have decent farming patterns. Mixing an aquila in there helps a lot too. So usually bb, PMS/Aquila/quelling/yasha --> radiance. Get the treads if you need to, but get the boots of travel after manta or skadi. The travel's let you farm obscenely fast with the radiance. The general way you farm is 2x lanes + jungle, TP to other side of map, 2x lanes + jungle then TP back. and repeat. Then once you are slotted you send your conjure illusions to A move up a lane to the barracks while farming with just the manta illusions and your hero. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/119079442/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=Here is his match history. He's posted in this thread under the name Ver I think.
Ridiculous pubstomps with massive GPM are one of the funnest things about TB
I'll have to check a few of these out - thanks.
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On November 23 2014 07:37 Comeh wrote:
If you are getting 17 creeps a minute with radiance TB, chances are you can build most of any builds on th and still win / have good creeps per minute.
This is what your last post had me thinking... i.e. if you're farming well enough to get travs/radiance/manta by like 17-20 mins you probably could have gone another build and been more active, with less risk, and still won.
Interesting stuff. To YOLO radiance, or not to YOLO radiance... that is the question.
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I honestly feel this discussion has been muddled a bit, because people were actually under the impression that Radiance was bad on Terrorblade before the recent 6.82b nerf. It was fair to say that the standard non-Radiance was equally competitive with Radiance build, before the illusion nerf I was running both builds, and they were fairly equal, and might I say it was better that way because it allowed you to choose which viable route you wanted. I personally preferred Radiance because of the extra perks it allowed me to take advantage of with some micro.
Those that say Radiance is bad just didn't understand how to use Radiance enough. Just having radiance allows your hero to move heroes around the map in a different way than manta/skadi. Controlling blinks was very helpful on Radiance TB. There's no question now, IF keeps pushing him away from Radiance viability. What you're able to do with Radiance has not changed, only that it's very risky now in translating into wins.
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When you say equally competitive, what do you mean? In terms of farm or effectiveness? In farm stats loses, and effectiveness is situational.
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On November 23 2014 07:37 Comeh wrote:
If you are getting 17 creeps a minute with radiance TB, chances are you can build most of any builds on th and still win / have good creeps per minute.
That's not true. TB just creeps very very fast with it. It's not a sign of an absolutely free stomp game. It's just like a Naga, where by controlling the lanes your CS is nuts. Your team might be losing but you are stalling out the game by creep cutting and farming their jungle if not both. He can farm a lot relatively safely by scouting with his illusions while farming and only using the hero to farm safe areas.
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On November 23 2014 09:29 deadmau wrote:
I honestly feel this discussion has been muddled a bit, because people were actually under the impression that Radiance was bad on Terrorblade before the recent 6.82b nerf. It was fair to say that the standard non-Radiance was equally competitive with Radiance build, before the illusion nerf I was running both builds, and they were fairly equal, and might I say it was better that way because it allowed you to choose which viable route you wanted. I personally preferred Radiance because of the extra perks it allowed me to take advantage of with some micro.
Those that say Radiance is bad just didn't understand how to use Radiance enough. Just having radiance allows your hero to move heroes around the map in a different way than manta/skadi. Controlling blinks was very helpful on Radiance TB. There's no question now, IF keeps pushing him away from Radiance viability. What you're able to do with Radiance has not changed, only that it's very risky now in translating into wins.
I'm confused, most of the people I know think radiance was strong before 6.82b. And doesn't radiance require less micro since you can just a-move your illusions up the lanes and still snag 75%+ (I'm making that number up) of the last hits without a second thought?
I'm just a lowly 3.Xk player, but I think the risk is more a matter of the meta and the nerf to TB movespeed (and also Q). The nerf to Q and subsequent nerf to movespeed means less faceroll kills in the laning phase, which delays yasha and therefore the ability to jung+lane with illusions at the ~7-8 minute mark. That means you delay pretty much everything longer than before, just so you can have a shot at getting rad and then snowballing. The new 6.82b meta also seems to be extremely gank heavy, with many rotations gunning for me before 6 mins.
It's tough to grab a radiance under that kind of pressure now, whereas before you could just meta+Q and smoke pretty much anyone that stepped into your lane.
But I agree, it's a complicated discussion! :D
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On November 23 2014 11:00 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
When you say equally competitive, what do you mean? In terms of farm or effectiveness? In farm stats loses, and effectiveness is situational.
Equally competitive for me means translating into a win, I'm not talking nuances like lasthits/min or farmspeed or pushing power; I guess mine is an overall analysis. Each route entailed a tad different playstyle, nothing significant, but both were able to translate into wins, while being effective in their own rights. This doesn't matter much anymore, 6.82b made it way too risky.
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On November 23 2014 05:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable. It's very very good. A friend of mine does it and you creep like a monster. he usually 6 slots on TB around the 30 minute mark with 17-22 creeps a minute. It let's you farm way more than the stats items. For those who question it, I doubt you can get much past 16/17 creeps a minute without the radiance, while getting that should be relatively easy with the radiance if you have decent farming patterns. Mixing an aquila in there helps a lot too. So usually bb, PMS/Aquila/quelling/yasha --> radiance. Get the treads if you need to, but get the boots of travel after manta or skadi. The travel's let you farm obscenely fast with the radiance. The general way you farm is 2x lanes + jungle, TP to other side of map, 2x lanes + jungle then TP back. and repeat. Then once you are slotted you send your conjure illusions to A move up a lane to the barracks while farming with just the manta illusions and your hero. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/119079442/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=Here is his match history. He's posted in this thread under the name Ver I think.
I watched 2 of that guys replays last time his match history came up in this thread and I think he's making some seriously bad decisions that boost his farm but decreases his chances of winning. Terrorblade can take towers very fast, and without putting himself at much of a risk. By dedicating your illusions to pushing you're going to create massive space for your team while denying it from your enemy. You'll probably end up somewhere around 10-15 cs/min, but you'll be more likely to actually win the game.
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No he's not, the problem is he's balanced from a pro standpoint and tb takes more skill than most to play effectively and also needs protection. He's still one of the best farmers by far, and that combined with his strong push makes him very viable, but he's insanely fragile without items, so if you are not a great farmer he looks terrible
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To be honest, I think this hero is quite strong in pubs up to a certain level (probably over 5-5.5k it tapers off)
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Nah he is not. His only weakness is against an aggressive lane. Without it, he is pretty much free to farm and carry on his own. Still think he is overpowered.
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what do you do if you face an aggro tri? say you assume from the draft they will go aggro-tri, do you just get starting items to jungle? swap lanes?
I know the obv answer is "it depends" but can someone give the options. cause i was thinking jungle but if theres an aggro tri they might just hunt you down.
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On November 27 2014 00:21 mooo wrote:
what do you do if you face an aggro tri? say you assume from the draft they will go aggro-tri, do you just get starting items to jungle? swap lanes?
I know the obv answer is "it depends" but can someone give the options. cause i was thinking jungle but if theres an aggro tri they might just hunt you down.
Pretty much just try your best to live through it and get to level 7 so you can have 4 points in your illusion spell and start farming through the jungle.
Pop your level 1 meta and just get as many last hits as you can / trade harass (since you do a billion damage in meta so trading is effective). You can try holding onto meta and hoping they over extend / dive you and can pick up a kill with your slow and meta. Might be worth putting a point in your ult at level 6 to see if you can punish a kill attempt by their trilane.
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So thing about aggro tri is it means your mid and offlane will not have to worry about rotations (way harder to do unnoticed). You basically need your team to pull up the slack while you passively farm under tower.
If your supports pick well, TB + 2 supports can break even against strong tri lanes.
If the safe lane is lost, have supports abandon and make stuff happen in the other lanes. You can recover later in jungle.
This is the same problem any carry runs in to against aggro tri. The thing is, the pressure is on the aggressive team to shut down your safe lane, if they screw it up, the game is almost certainly lost. Meanwhile the defending team has options for recovery.
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Lets say your team is being killed twice? why not switch the tb and the solo offlaner?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2014 03:44 govie wrote:
Lets say your team is being killed twice? why not switch the tb and the solo offlaner?
Because unless the offlaner is already losing, you go from 2 lanes to losing 3.
A starved TB in a bad 3v3 isn't going to miraculously do better in an offlane vs. safelane 1v1 against a safelane solo that got reasonable farm and has a 2-3 level advantage over him, while switching the offlaner down doesn't necessarily have the same converse impact depending on which offlaner it is (some offlane solos are strong for getting kills in the swapped 3v3 scenario though, but a lot of common ones aren't).
In a scenario where you lost the 3v3, you rely on the tempo of the solo laners to make back the deficit in the midgame because they will be the ones with the highest midgame impact. You don't want to sacrifice the offlaner's tempo to try and get the TB to catch up sooner, because the TB will only ever get a chance to catch up if the offlaner and mid are doing well enough to create space for him.
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On November 27 2014 03:44 govie wrote:
Lets say your team is being killed twice? why not switch the tb and the solo offlaner?
Depends on the plan your team has. If you wanna spread their tri lane around the map chasing your tri lane, sure.
If your offlaner is winning his 1v1 mu, this might be counterproductive
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United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2014 04:01 ahw wrote:
Depends on the plan your team has. If you wanna spread their tri lane around the map chasing your tri lane, sure.
If you want to break the trilane, the most effective way to do this usually isn't to move the TB, it's to move the supports. Particularly if your supports are weak laners with strong gank/kill potential.
Swapping the TB into the offlane has the strong possibility that you get a scenario where you get even less gold/XP than if you'd stayed in the safe lane. You can swap lanes to dodge an aggressive trilane, but waiting till after the enemy supports have a gold and level advantage from getting 2 kills is a pretty shitty time to do it.
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Yea. That's what I meant by depends on your game plan. I don't know what effective game plan has a gimped TB though.
Also their solo safe laner will in all likelihood be 2-3 levels up on your TB, and have a big item advantage on him.
The real solution to this problem IMO is picking better supports
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If you pop Metamorph right away on level 1 and then go into the jungle the moment it is off cooldown again you can get ~50-60 jungle creeps before 10min which, depending on how many you got in the lane, might be enough to get you a 10min Boots/Aquila/Yasha. If you're Radiant you can time it so that you're always farming with Metamorph when you're in the right half of the jungle which makes it a lot harder for them to harass you.
Also, If you have some kind of control over your teammates picks and you see the enemy clearly gearing up for an aggressive trilane can ask someone on your team to pick Lich and go dual lane elsewhere.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2014 04:11 ahw wrote:
The real solution to this problem IMO is picking better supports
Or rather, make whatever adjustments you want to make from the beginning of the game. If you're going to swap your laning arrangement, do it at the start of the game. Doing it after your trilane is 0-2 is just going to be outright worse, especially when you already knew your trilane was fucked going into the game.
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Thanks all for the laning tips.
I saw TB getting bottle (mostly for DD rune + mana). Thought? anyone try this?
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When you're full time rotating between lane and jungle, having the extra regen from bottle and runes is great for staying at full hp and mana
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Would you skip Aquila in that case?
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On December 11 2014 01:40 mooo wrote:
Thanks all for the laning tips.
I saw TB getting bottle (mostly for DD rune + mana). Thought? anyone try this?
Illusion rune is pretty nuts too.
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Runes are fairly strong on TB, but really bottle is not a great item on him. You want to get your farming going ASAP to get yourself big enough to push and pressure. I just don't see why you would go bottle over Aquila except against a bh/sa/nyx who's stalking you so you want to remain at 100% hp.
Pms, brown boots, Aquila, QB when you go into jungle, yasha, manta, travels, skadi is just too smooth to consider doing anything different imo
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ya, if bottle no aquila.
i was thinking bottle was worse than aquila cause you loose so much xp and $ when you go to the rune, and also risk not even getting the rune. but i also see how completely dumb DD is with meta.
i saw pros do it, but didnt note who they were against. maybe thats the determining factor.
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You can also just crow the bottle, though that is harder to do in pubs.
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You can also time your jungle rotations probably. If you're at the camps closest to the rune when it spawns you're really not giving up all that much to get it.
Assuming both cover your mana and your team isn't benefiting much from your mana aura because you're off farming as TB all the time the trade-off is what?
If you still get the wraith band...
Runes & health recovery vs. 3 agi, 6 damage, 1 armor, +2 armor aura and 175gold.
Plus you can pass off the bottle to a support later on where as you would just be selling the Aquila.
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Uh aquilas stats are way stronger than you know dude.
+3 Strength
+9 Agility
+3 Intelligence
+9 Damage
+1 Armor
Grants mana regeneration and armor in a 900 radius.
Bonus Mana Regeneration: 0.65
Bonus Armor: 2
So its total 18 dmg, and enhances your pushing quite considerably with the +2 armor making melee creeps take 1 more tower hit each to kill
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SoCal8908 Posts
On December 12 2014 04:58 Varth wrote:
Uh aquilas stats are way stronger than you know dude.
+3 Strength
+9 Agility
+3 Intelligence
+9 Damage
+1 Armor
Grants mana regeneration and armor in a 900 radius.
Bonus Mana Regeneration: 0.65
Bonus Armor: 2
So its total 18 dmg, and enhances your pushing quite considerably with the +2 armor making melee creeps take 1 more tower hit each to kill
exactly. the fact is that those stats will matter to TB who is really lacking at the beginning of the game. your pushing power from the aura and the extra agility, armor, and damage greatly help your farm before you get to your yasha.
on top of that, yes if you time your farming routes perfectly and they don't have heroes camping the rune when they realize that's your source of regen...maybe bottle is ok. but I personally prefer aquilla since it offers you stats.
I personally don't understand the obsession with getting a bottle on farmers with the current patch. yes, there are two runes..however if you're securing both runes as a team, your mid should be taking the action rune to refill and bounties should be going to supports since they're not getting too much xp and gold since they are supports. this won't always work out bc of RNG, but I do feel that unless its a DD, supports should be getting at least one of the runes, instead of having 2 bottle users.
plus, you have to stop farming, and as a carry that's a huge deal.
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if u go bottle ud probably get it alongside roa
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United States47024 Posts
It depends on your mid hero. The thing is, realistically, the safe lane rune is already the one that your mid is gonna get because it's the one that's safer for him to get. Just cuz there are 2 runes doesn't mean your team is gonna get both of them every time, and when it's only safe for your mid laner to get the safe lane rune, he's probably going to do more with it while you'd just farm.
If your mid is someone who's also just gonna bottle-crow or farm with a rune, or a non-Bottle mid hero, then it's easier to justify.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On December 12 2014 06:43 TheYango wrote:
It depends on your mid hero. The thing is, realistically, the safe lane rune is already the one that your mid is gonna get because it's the one that's safer for him to get. Just cuz there are 2 runes doesn't mean your team is gonna get both of them every time, and when it's only safe for your mid laner to get the safe lane rune, he's probably going to do more with it while you'd just farm.
If your mid is someone who's also just gonna bottle-crow or farm with a rune, or a non-Bottle mid hero, then it's easier to justify.
exactly. this is a more likely scenario and then as a carry you've effectively wasted 700g if the situation is not ideal and your team can only secure safe lane rune with your mid.
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United States2186 Posts
Bottle definitely does not directly pay off for TB unless for some reason you need a lot of laning sustain. His base regen is so high and with aquila you might need 1-2 fountain trips during the game after clearing the whole jungle at most. Getting non dd/illu runes also have a pretty significant opportunity cost in most cases. The way the pros do it with hoarding a dd for a t2 team push is pretty reliant on having coordinated allies.
Though I don't really like getting the aquila if I had free farm and thus went treads yasha radi, but it is nice if I plan on fighting early with treads yasha skadi. It seems to slow the radi without significant payoff, as in you don't get to farm enough faster as your farming speed is limited by ms and space, not average time per camp/wave. The tower pushing effect is nice but there just aren't that many cases where it makes or breaks a kill. But if you push tower too early/don't have total lane control and go brown boots then aquila is necessary.
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On December 12 2014 04:58 Varth wrote:
Uh aquilas stats are way stronger than you know dude.
+3 Strength
+9 Agility
+3 Intelligence
+9 Damage
+1 Armor
Grants mana regeneration and armor in a 900 radius.
Bonus Mana Regeneration: 0.65
Bonus Armor: 2
So its total 18 dmg, and enhances your pushing quite considerably with the +2 armor making melee creeps take 1 more tower hit each to kill
I was comparing it to Wraith Band + Bottle not just Bottle, I just didn't write my post properly and left that out lol.
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You get Aquila instead of treads, because 100% of the time tb wants travels pretty quickly after radi/manta to start farming the entire map. It's 35 more gold than glove+belt while offering slightly better farming and pushing potential AND won't be sold 15 minutes later
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Doesn't Ver go something like Treads when he needs it and then, back into BoT later on after his Radiance/Manta? BoT is always what I want but I was wondering about Ver's strat. I never thought of going back into a full BoT so soon, curious here.
So varth, no matter what you will always skip treads given that you have gotten Aquila to offset that fact you're skipping treads? I find that hard to believe because sometimes there's a lot of unavoidable dmg goin around. I'm not discussing the same thing as that guy about aquila vs bottle either, the value of Aquila is fairly basic/standard knowledge.
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Honestly treads are pretty terrible in the early laning stage, it's all about timing last hits so +dmg is more valuable which Aquila gives, which along with meta and and earlyish QB lets me out cs and deny the hell out of most offlaners.
The primary value of treads is the very efficient attack speed (if you have Aquila, if you don't have Aquila treads switching is a big deal if you want to spam illusions), which only has a decent impact when you first go into the jungle before you get your yasha. Considering that's usually a 1-2 minute window I find it to be a waste of gold.
I did a similar build to vers strat (going pms treads yasha radiance manta) for a while but in pubs I've found a lot more impact in pms brown Aquila yasha manta travels because you can pressure towers a couple minutes earlier which can be a HUGE difference in who is capable of stopping your illusions. Most supports at that point wont be able to stop them due to being low level so you can usually kill a couple more towers or force an opposing enemy core to defend whatever lane you are pressuring. Just that is a win because you are farming the jungle + lane so you are getting a farm advantage.
Being able to tp to fights no matter where the fight is on the map from minute 18 on is freaking nuts too, at that point while you are fragile as hell you are the strongest glass cannon in the game, and due to your constant pressure on whatever lane you are pushing you will have a #s advantage at most fights that you tp to. Now you won a teamfight and can kill a tower or two and just snowball even harder
I don't like using pro builds. I'm not a pro and never will be, and they play a completely different game in many respects. You can get away with so much more in pubs than they can, and can exploit so many other things. The best source of advice I've found that actually applies to me and something I can actually pull off is Chunderboy. That guy just gets the pub mentality and how to win in pubs more than anyone else that posts here imo. I've played this game for a decade and never had advice work out so consistently like his does
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Yes you go bots lategame after treads, treads increase dps alot, if you want to push earlier pt's seem great. Blacks terrorblade is pretty impressive, he has almost a 80% winrate on him, hence the name terrorblade. Black pushes a little earlier so he skips radiance and goes pt+roh almost every game.
Blacks build him pretty standard: PT's+RoH+Manta+Skadi+ whatever you need (maybe bkb+ac+mkb+butterfly+bots +etcetc).
http://www.datdota.com/player.php?q=53&player=Black
E: If you go radiance, going pt+roh only delays the timing of your early radiance i think, if you can skip both its fine.
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United States47024 Posts
Early Treads is an item of convenience. For purely farming it's not all that great compared to more stat items, but the fact that you can buy it on demand at the side shop on the fly is pretty nice. If lanes break earlier and you're just solo farming, you don't really need to detour by 950 gold over just getting a bigger farming item. But in an extended laning scenario where you want to preserve an advantage over an enemy laner rather than banking 2k for your next item and letting him potentially put pressure on you, you can just buy the Treads.
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On December 13 2014 06:52 Varth wrote:
I don't like using pro builds. I'm not a pro and never will be, and they play a completely different game in many respects. You can get away with so much more in pubs than they can, and can exploit so many other things. The best source of advice I've found that actually applies to me and something I can actually pull off is Chunderboy. That guy just gets the pub mentality and how to win in pubs more than anyone else that posts here imo. I've played this game for a decade and never had advice work out so consistently like his does
Too bad the general public doesn't understand this nuance as much. Pro builds have their place, in pro-play or a pro-environment, and sometimes those things do align with pub games, but pub play is pub play. Trying to wrap your head around why pubs play one way and are successful yet would be bad in a competitive match will give you migraines. I've had the most success when I play as you say, as if pub games are pub games. For every time I hear "but so & so does it"...
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On December 13 2014 07:52 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 06:52 Varth wrote:
I don't like using pro builds. I'm not a pro and never will be, and they play a completely different game in many respects. You can get away with so much more in pubs than they can, and can exploit so many other things. The best source of advice I've found that actually applies to me and something I can actually pull off is Chunderboy. That guy just gets the pub mentality and how to win in pubs more than anyone else that posts here imo. I've played this game for a decade and never had advice work out so consistently like his does For every time I hear "but so & so does it"...
And they aren"t so and so and cant pull it off skill wise or understand why it's done and that the situations are different.
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When you consider the strengths of bot on this hero, you could consider skipping treads. It is generally an overrated item anyway, especially since it does not offer any extra ms over brown boots.
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United States2186 Posts
If you have relative free farm treads more than pay for themselves. Try it yourself in lobby. Once you have treads you can farm jungle camps while illusion farms lane. Your supports get lane xp and you get massive farm; you should be able to reach 80 cs by 8 mins and it will only go up in ideal circumstances. To some degree you can get around this by shoving wave and then jungling a camp with illusion before returning to wave (on dire only), but your jungling is too slow without treads until you get a few more levels, or if you blow meta for a kill you can kill a camp with illu in lane. Treads lets you start jungling+illu in lane as soon as you get them. Plus you give the offlaner full waves under tower if you shove lane. May be worth it, but alternatives are better. It's definitely worth it to get travels asap once you get your first major farming item even if you bought treads: it will accelerate your items by several minutes. That farming item is either radi (sometimes +manta) or skadi+manta as stats builds farm too slowly initially.
If you have an inbetween level of free farm and highly contested lane, or your team stupidly pushes the tower too early (pushing the t1 tower early but not the second is a horrible misplay people make with TB), or some idiot jungler stealing your jungle, then the treads are superfluous as they won't accelerate your jungling any faster since you can't jungle + lane, so you'll have illusions for the jungle. On the lower end if your lane is so contested that you need any advantage the treads are great.
I don't think you should go Radiance every game; it depends a lot on the enemy team. It's much better when they have squishy supports that you can solo kill with illusions and blink reliant heroes. Disrupting Blinks is such a godsend. When you push you just send an illusion further in and they need to auto it down before anyone can blink on your team. It also fits appropriately if your team is so weak in 5v5's that you can't afford to take direct fights. But within those guidelines I've never once regretted going it; there's a limit on turning unwinnable games around with non radi builds, but you can really make miracles with radi. There is rarely ever going to be a noticeable difference in pushing towers so long as you have the yasha. The limiting factor on tower kills is enemy movement, your movement, and wave position, not whether you have a manta or just a yasha. Treads yasha skadi is definitely really good though for fighting <25 minutes if you have a strong timing then. Any other build besides these two - yasha skadi bkb and force early fights, or radi bots manta and get maxed 30-35min - feels grossly inefficient.
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 13 2014 15:31 Ver wrote:
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
I think you contradict yourself here. It's not so much copying pros that's bad, but it's copying them blindly without being as discerning as you are here.
The majority of low-mid level players can't objectively judge "good" from "bad" play when it comes to a top level player, which makes it likewise hard for them to scrutinize higher level players in the way you're describing here that's useful.
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Most people dont simply copy a probuilds without thinking about it no matter what mmr they have. A forum is a discussionplatform, you either get used to it or you delete the topics from the "mythreads section" and start pm-ing yango, ver or chunderboy every week with all your questions, lol.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 14 2014 05:30 govie wrote:
Most people dont simply copy a probuilds without thinking about it no matter what mmr they have.
You'd be surprised. It's not exactly an uncommon thing for someone to just dotabuff a few games and blindly follow the items without even watching the games.
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United States2186 Posts
I didn't explain myself clearly. The vast vast majority of dota players should blindly copy pros in pubs because they have no idea how to discern anything. I played the game for half a year before I allowed myself to have an opinion. Here I was just giving some advice as someone who's studied all the major tb players a lot and has the skill to analyze properly. TB is also a very weird exception in that there isn't some pro you can just copy without thinking and be doing the best there is available.
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On December 13 2014 15:31 Ver wrote:
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
thx im the best
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I like drums on him now if you skip treads and you are going rat style. I hate drums on 80% of the pool, but he makes good use of the stats and the charges with the meta nerf.
Usually I go Aquila/brown boot/drum/yasha in to bots and then whatever. I mean ideally you skip drums but generally they will choose pickoff heroes to make your life difficult. If I'm ahead I get em if I'm behind I try to cut corners for faster bots.
I don't think its optimal but I thnk its a pretty good middle ground build.
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On December 13 2014 15:31 Ver wrote:
If you have relative free farm treads more than pay for themselves. Try it yourself in lobby. Once you have treads you can farm jungle camps while illusion farms lane. Your supports get lane xp and you get massive farm; you should be able to reach 80 cs by 8 mins and it will only go up in ideal circumstances. To some degree you can get around this by shoving wave and then jungling a camp with illusion before returning to wave (on dire only), but your jungling is too slow without treads until you get a few more levels, or if you blow meta for a kill you can kill a camp with illu in lane. Treads lets you start jungling+illu in lane as soon as you get them. Plus you give the offlaner full waves under tower if you shove lane. May be worth it, but alternatives are better. It's definitely worth it to get travels asap once you get your first major farming item even if you bought treads: it will accelerate your items by several minutes. That farming item is either radi (sometimes +manta) or skadi+manta as stats builds farm too slowly initially.
If you have an inbetween level of free farm and highly contested lane, or your team stupidly pushes the tower too early (pushing the t1 tower early but not the second is a horrible misplay people make with TB), or some idiot jungler stealing your jungle, then the treads are superfluous as they won't accelerate your jungling any faster since you can't jungle + lane, so you'll have illusions for the jungle. On the lower end if your lane is so contested that you need any advantage the treads are great.
I don't think you should go Radiance every game; it depends a lot on the enemy team. It's much better when they have squishy supports that you can solo kill with illusions and blink reliant heroes. Disrupting Blinks is such a godsend. When you push you just send an illusion further in and they need to auto it down before anyone can blink on your team. It also fits appropriately if your team is so weak in 5v5's that you can't afford to take direct fights. But within those guidelines I've never once regretted going it; there's a limit on turning unwinnable games around with non radi builds, but you can really make miracles with radi. There is rarely ever going to be a noticeable difference in pushing towers so long as you have the yasha. The limiting factor on tower kills is enemy movement, your movement, and wave position, not whether you have a manta or just a yasha. Treads yasha skadi is definitely really good though for fighting <25 minutes if you have a strong timing then. Any other build besides these two - yasha skadi bkb and force early fights, or radi bots manta and get maxed 30-35min - feels grossly inefficient.
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
Do you have a vod or non-expired replay of getting 80 cs in 8 minutes using that method? I tried it in an empty game and was about 20 cs behind the bar you say is possible. I went aquila treads and used meta and illusion every cd and couldn't come close. I dunno if I fucked up or what, but the tempo seemed off-- the illusions I sent frequently died during the creep wave and the next one arrived just in time for the creep wave to die off on its own. The non-meta illusions just weren't doing much damage to the lane creeps anyway, so I wasn't getting every possible lasthit either. Is this just a matter of mechanical skill, or is there something I'm missing? Do you use meta/ilu on specific timings to hit the creep waves? Am I overthinking this? I couldn't even pull it off without 1-2 enemies in the offlane contesting farm.
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iirc you should use meta to clear a stack if needed or to push towers/get kills. with a quelling blade I think the damage from a meta illusion and a regular illusion are pretty similar. If you can last hit at level 1 you should be able to last hit at level 5 with a quelling blade. Your illusion shouldn't be taking damage in lane from creeps so it shouldn't be dying. You can shift A click each camp with your main hero so he will auto farm each camp without you needing to monitor him too much then use the majority of your attention on just last hitting with your illusion in lane.
That works in absolute free farm scenarios, if someone is in lane they can kill your illusion which is annoying.
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did you skip a qb? i see lots of people try to skip QB on tb and it seems like a real bad idea. 32% dmg on illusions is legit
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SoCal8908 Posts
On December 15 2014 11:33 ahw wrote:
did you skip a qb? i see lots of people try to skip QB on tb and it seems like a real bad idea. 32% dmg on illusions is legit
his base dmg isn't too bad naturally, but QB is usually a good farming tool on him for more reliable last hitting, but more importantly, farm rotations.
especially radiant side or going from the dire t2 medium camp to the hard camp, shaving time off your rotations by cutting through the trees is quite valuable. it is also useful if youre trying to bottleneck some melee creeps and tank one at a time earlier.
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I can see the argument that treads is very efficient and good IF you can get free farm in lane quickly. My problem is in my bracket of 4600 it's incredibly hard to get the longlane hero to leave the lane even if they are getting little exp and little farm. It generally takes 10minutes or so to actually get them to leave, and by then you almost have yasha and most of the efficiency of treads is lost.
I would add it into my list of item decisions though, IF I'm getting free farm very early then go treads
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SoCal8908 Posts
On December 16 2014 05:44 Varth wrote:
I can see the argument that treads is very efficient and good IF you can get free farm in lane quickly. My problem is in my bracket of 4600 it's incredibly hard to get the longlane hero to leave the lane even if they are getting little exp and little farm. It generally takes 10minutes or so to actually get them to leave, and by then you almost have yasha and most of the efficiency of treads is lost.
I would add it into my list of item decisions though, IF I'm getting free farm very early then go treads
I think you're viewing the situation backwards. if you're not getting the best farm in the world, you get treads instead of brown boots yasha bc you need to have the intermediate item.
otherwise, if you're free farm, yasha into travels into whatever you want.
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I was mainly referring to Vers post about how likes to get treads then he immediately jungles after just treads and im assuming a pms and qb. Considering you can get those items at like minute 4 I was stating that its not realistic to not have contested farm at that time.
Overall it sounds like treads isn't ever a BAD decision, there may be a few cases where it's not completely optimal in my view, but overall you won't ever regret getting treads early
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On December 16 2014 04:25 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 11:33 ahw wrote:
did you skip a qb? i see lots of people try to skip QB on tb and it seems like a real bad idea. 32% dmg on illusions is legit his base dmg isn't too bad naturally, but QB is usually a good farming tool on him for more reliable last hitting, but more importantly, farm rotations. especially radiant side or going from the dire t2 medium camp to the hard camp, shaving time off your rotations by cutting through the trees is quite valuable. it is also useful if youre trying to bottleneck some melee creeps and tank one at a time earlier.
its worth getting qb and keeping it because 32% dmg from illus vs creeps scales amazing... you dont need it for main hero last hits, but your illusions need it pretty bad. its worth keeping for as long as possible, especially if you are doing the manta/skadi style without rad. its really good at pushing lanes out
the farming shit is good too but its just so good on his illusions. 60% base, and then 32% on top of that.. something like 80% dmg illusions to creeps
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I go jungle right after Aquila if I have free farm. You don't need Treads to jungle and there's no way the increased jungling speed is going to make up for the delayed BoTs. Treads is viable if the enemy has a lineup that heavily punishes split pushing or has terrible early anti-push and you're looking to roll them over early with the help of your team. Getting Treads because you have freefarm is bad. Default to BoTs and adapt depending on line-ups.
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I'm a fan of BoTs rushing as much as the next guy but I'm watching RTZ/EE get treads alllllllll the time. It's like an extra 15% hp when you need it, it's not trivial.
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SoCal8908 Posts
how do you guys deal with storm spirit as this hero? i decided early that the only way we were gonna win was if i was able to rat, so i went for a radiance build after i got treads. i feel like i could have rushed the radiance without treads maybe, but the storm was getting big so i was scared without the extra hp.
is diffusal good for just manfighting the fucker?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 10 2015 10:10 BluemoonSC wrote:
how do you guys deal with storm spirit as this hero? i decided early that the only way we were gonna win was if i was able to rat, so i went for a radiance build after i got treads. i feel like i could have rushed the radiance without treads maybe, but the storm was getting big so i was scared without the extra hp.
is diffusal good for just manfighting the fucker?
Well, getting radiance was your first error, you have almost no HP against a hero that is masterful at bursting people.
Second, your best bet against storm is probably just rushing bkb after yasha or something and just hoping that by the time it will stop saving you, you will have enough HP to just sunder motherfucker after he spends most of his mana.
And last: best bet is not picking TB anyway before last pick, like, seriously.
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SoCal8908 Posts
it was a random, and i somehow enjoy the hero. radiance wasn't a huge issue bc i was farming well (up until my first death..set back the recipe a bit..but at that point i was committed). we had a silencer so i felt confident getting it to rat. i'm still standing by the decision i made, it's just unfortunate my silencer would silence 5s into the engagement every time, i suppose.
my illusions were pushing well, i was farming well, but he was always an item ahead bc he was farming my supports. we were still in the game when i got my manta and skadi as well. you think that i coulda squeezed a bkb in there before completing the manta and just gone ham? or maybe yasha bkb sny?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 10 2015 10:36 BluemoonSC wrote:
it was a random, and i somehow enjoy the hero. radiance wasn't a huge issue bc i was farming well (up until my first death..set back the recipe a bit..but at that point i was committed). we had a silencer so i felt confident getting it to rat. i'm still standing by the decision i made, it's just unfortunate my silencer would silence 5s into the engagement every time, i suppose.
my illusions were pushing well, i was farming well, but he was always an item ahead bc he was farming my supports. we were still in the game when i got my manta and skadi as well. you think that i coulda squeezed a bkb in there before completing the manta and just gone ham? or maybe yasha bkb sny?
See, my point is that on a hero that farms as well as TB even without radiance, buying radiance most of the time is just delaying your manta-skadi and it is even worse after illusion damage taken nerf. As for bkb, bkb is obvious a judgement to be made based on the game itself. If your problem is getting picked off by storm on regular basis, bkb is probably the only valid solution to it. Well, another skadi could be too, but whatever.
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United States2186 Posts
This is a pretty complex question. A lot depends on the Storm's team and their ability to ward or scout for him (i,e bounty hunter, riki). Storm is a weird encounter for TB as he's one of the few heroes that can ignore your illusion "shield" and solo kill you like Shadowblade Slark, but he also needs to stay items ahead of TB to actually kill him and that is extremely hard. Plus Storm requires at least 2 major items to have the mana to liberally flash farm multiple waves and still have full for long jumps. So in this respect if you can get a relatively undisturbed radiance timing while your team collapses, you can keep forcing storm to tp to various lanes (while non radiance builds farm so much worse that it won't have the same effect). If you are afraid that he has an area of the jungle warded, just send 1 illusion to the lane and have another+manta illusions farm jungle, while only exposing your hero to safe jungle areas or when storm is forced to show in lane. Most pubs won't put down lane wards to catch a tb so if you stay in the lane well beyond a creep wave and only send illusions forth, they won't catch you easily. Remember that if your lane pressure can force storm to push lanes instead of staying off the map farming jungle and jumping 1 person anytime someone walks out alone, his threat level is much weaker. The question of treads vs brown boots aquila yasha when you're going radiance depends on your laning phase, as I mentioned in previous pages, since either way you must get bots in order to pressure lanes hard enough and force storm to reveal himself. Treads alone are not going to save you from a fed storm, though they might vs a nyx.
Say his allies are weaver, earth spirit, veno, and rubick. None of them flash farm well, so by shoving waves very hard with radi+bots you can keep the storm or at least his team from being in places where they can suddenly pick you or your allies off with no warning. It's worth it if you can trade your allies lives for additional towers and better lane equilibrium, as that makes future kills much harder for them.
If however storm's team has other heroes who can flash farm and clear your radiance illusions too easily (i,e a centaur storm bfury PA), then you won't be able to keep the pressure off you efficiently by shoving lanes/jungle and will have to win more by direct fighting, i,e no radi/bots but treads manta skadi. Normally manta -> skadi is just worse than yasha->skadi->manta but obviously manta is key vs orchid storm. BKB is extremely important vs storm but if you get it too early - assuming your allies suck and don't sit behind you with disables - you'll just bkb and storm will jump away since you don't do any damage anyway. Or he kills you straight through hex+vortex with orchid on if he's far enough ahead; bkb doesn't give enough raw hp to save you if he jumps you from the fog with enough of a lead to kill you. If however your allies have good teamfight and his don't or are heavily magic based, you can still come back from deficits with something like yasha bkb and 5man since storm cannot kill through bkb until lategame.
tb is a pretty weak hero right now though after the illusion nerf to buildings so it's an uphill fight regardless.
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On March 10 2015 10:10 BluemoonSC wrote:
how do you guys deal with storm spirit as this hero? i decided early that the only way we were gonna win was if i was able to rat, so i went for a radiance build after i got treads. i feel like i could have rushed the radiance without treads maybe, but the storm was getting big so i was scared without the extra hp.
is diffusal good for just manfighting the fucker?
i've heard alot of the western pros say that buying radiance for the hero is a waste of time.
never faced storm as terrorblade but i think you take a fast tower from the safelane and request the team to group up take the t1 and farm only come out once you get skadi+manta+aquila + threads timing then go push again.
Afterwards rinse and repeat get and item and/or roshan then push. Don't come out of the lane often cause a storm with orchid should rekt you unless you have bkb. Idk it takes more than just you alone to wint he game.
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SoCal8908 Posts
the safe lane tower was down at like 6 minutes and 63 cs at 10min, the only thing I wish I had was a pick off on the offlaner, but my silencer made questionable choices.. but I think I had just been able to purchase the recipe when a fight broke out at around 15min...so that would have been radiance after treads aquilla, which isn't bad. after the radiance I was able to apply pressure to the lanes heavily, but im thinking that if I had just skipped treads entirely, it would have been even better especially once I got bots and could really cause headaches and split them up.
I think in this regard, the radiance worked bc for a long time I was just able to dodge the storm and force their team to go back to defend frequently. the problem was, and I truly believe this, that the other 4 people on my team were highly disorganized when it came time to fight the storm, largely due to being in a party with people 1.2k mmr lower than the storm. he would just jump on someone the moment they were a pixel out of position and there would be no response from the other 3 heroes.
anyway, I guess the question really is, when I should get the bkb? the storm went orchid bloodstone hex shivas (i believe in that order), and if i had been able to deal with him, the rest was ez.
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I'm just going to go with Terrorblade is simply bad (sub-par as fuck compared to every other agi hero) in this meta mostly because supports and offlaners are so easy to play right now and often you'd be nuked to fuck.
Radiance isn't bad because of how successful Beesa and bottle style TBs were in pro games when he was relevant.
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yes he is mega bad and useless. needs another icefrog rmk
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
what would u change about him chunderboy
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SoCal8908 Posts
honestly its a shame, I do enjoy the hero. im not sure what I would change about him though..anything you do to buff the illusions makes him mega strong.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 10 2015 22:40 BluemoonSC wrote:
honestly its a shame, I do enjoy the hero. im not sure what I would change about him though..anything you do to buff the illusions makes him mega strong.
Hence the need for remake, tbh, he is currently a worse lycan.
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make him a non illusion hero. we have enough of those
give him some lifedrain gimmick back
give him a passive, not zeal tho
sunders fine
also meta is just a boring bad spell (idk why ppl say meta is one of the best skills in game, i think its awful 80 dmg isnt even that good and u become so slow)
compare meta to sf souls 80 dmg with slow vs 72 dmg
TA gets 80 + 200 dmg and -8 armour
Every antimage mana break even from illusions translates to 110 extra dmg if u use ulti later
etc..
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 11 2015 01:18 ChunderBoy wrote:
make him a non illusion hero. we have enough of those
give him some lifedrain gimmick back
give him a passive, not zeal tho
sunders fine
also meta is just a boring bad spell (idk why ppl say meta is one of the best skills in game, i think its awful 80 dmg isnt even that good and u become so slow)
compare meta to sf souls 80 dmg with slow vs 72 dmg
TA gets 80 + 200 dmg and -8 armour
Every antimage mana break even from illusions translates to 110 extra dmg if u use ulti later
etc..
Well, meta before speed nerf was actually one of the best DPS steroids in the game due to it being base damage increase (say hello to illusions).
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On March 11 2015 01:18 ChunderBoy wrote:
make him a non illusion hero. we have enough of those
give him some lifedrain gimmick back
give him a passive, not zeal tho
sunders fine
also meta is just a boring bad spell (idk why ppl say meta is one of the best skills in game, i think its awful 80 dmg isnt even that good and u become so slow)
compare meta to sf souls 80 dmg with slow vs 72 dmg
TA gets 80 + 200 dmg and -8 armour
Every antimage mana break even from illusions translates to 110 extra dmg if u use ulti later
etc..
Soul Steal is awesome :D
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I have two questions for best carry.
Is Aquila still a lame item on him and will it just delay the nature of the hero? Not sure if it was discussed because TB was a bad hero for a couple of patches.
Because of Metamorphosis being terrible and 6.84's Reflection is pretty sick when maxed and under Octa, what is the recommended minimum amount of stats from level upgrades before maxing Reflection for the following item builds:
Yasha > Radiance > Skadi > Manta
Yasha > Radiance > Manta > Octarine Core
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
aquila still a good item, the mana regen will let you create an extra couple of illusions to farm lane with before you have to go back to fountain
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SoCal8908 Posts
yeah you still wanna at least get basi for your safelane t1 push
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Honestly the first time I've heard about aquila/basi in the build order since Beesa posted the items and progression.
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SoCal8908 Posts
its one of those small items that helps at the start of the game. the aura is good for when you're pushing that early t1 so your creep wave lasts longer.
aquilla is a great value item if you choose to upgrade it (this goes for any hero). if you tread switch when you create illusions, like ahswtini said, you will be able to farm more before having to go regen.
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aquila is like half a yasha
dont tihnk its worth it on tb
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SoCal8908 Posts
not worth for sustain when you're farming and the aura when you push?
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dont usually have sustain problems
i mean u can walk to fountain once in 5-10minutes
not worth paying 1k gold to be able to not do that
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Bottle seems better than every way and used in competitive over Aquila 'cuz you could just go to runes on your way through jungle. Plus it's cheaper.
But there shouldn't be any trouble anyway w/o Bottle as you can at least have 1 illusion travel to a lane to LH and farm jungle with prime TB.
So, what about the second question; how early should Reflection be maxed? It feels like I'm doing more taking stats from lvl 1-9 wherever applicable but I'm not sure how much I'm taking the piss for taking more stats instead of Q 12-15. Maybe I should invest in Q by the time I get relic?
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Aquila is still 18 damage and 9 attack speed plus some other sustain stats for 1k gold (or 500 as you sell it later), so there's definitely a place for it.
I generally go stat items over radiance as the cost of a radiance is pretty much the same as a manta and with that you can do so much more ealier, which seems to be the way 6.84 is played at the moment.
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Honestly most people knocked the radiance builds by saying it was garbage and no way you're going to farm it up. Then EE and Black did it then people just went quiet against Radi builds.
Plus Manta sucks without good items, having just treads aquila manta isn't enough and you're better off with the emergency BKB/Skadi to make use of spell immunity or reflection + skadislow (point booster build-up is pretty okay.)
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On May 23 2015 21:04 Surprise.820 wrote:
Honestly most people knocked the radiance builds by saying it was garbage and no way you're going to farm it up. Then EE and Black did it then people just went quiet against Radi builds.
Plus Manta sucks without good items, having just treads aquila manta isn't enough and you're better off with the emergency BKB/Skadi to make use of spell immunity or reflection + skadislow (point booster build-up is pretty okay.)
The reason i personally knock radiance build is because it's pointless waste of gold when you're already farming like a motherfucker with about any good stat item. And unlike say Naga you can't really take control over the enemy jungle with illusions just because you have just 2 up at a time and they are really fucking easy to kill. Also, i am fairly certain that EE always been going for something like manta->skadi->bfly/bkb->bkb/bfly in his TB games.
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Yea, EE never went radiance with TB. Kuroky, Arteezy, EE and Black all played a fair amount of TB games when it was popular near the end of last year, and Black was the only one who ever built radi out of them.
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Maybe new radiance and winter wyvern help to make him more viable with the HP swap thing? And i dont know if sing was joking or not, but apparantly you can sunder while being a wraith or i didnt get his joke.
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radiance got buffed... one of best items in game now
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I'm surprised no one is talking about Terrorblade. His new skill change is impressive.
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New sunder and 900 AOE reflection are really annoying to play against.
His weaknesses are still there, he has paper stats, needs items to work well, he has significant downtime between meta etc... But he is still a half time good laner, full time tower pusher. He'll still suffer in competitive imo because pros are better at controlling him.
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to be honest the new reflection is nice and all, but it actually nerfed his laning stage...
and that's when he could get rolling. now, you really need good team mates.
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manta got extra buffed on tb too, if you manta before meta it'll have melee illu stats on your meta illus and a shorter cd
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NERF SUNDER RANGE
FUUUCK THIS SHIT
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
Just disable him when he is below 40% instead of using stuns to initiate.
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So what's the new TB build? I saw Waga doing 4-0-4 and stats on stream. Is that becoming the new standard? I sorta understand it, his illusions are trash and die almost instantly to anything. I can see how you won't even bother leveling it and get stats instead.
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i mean before you can send ranged illusion that are strong enough to solo kill supports during split push
now they're just chump melee ones
;/
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On September 30 2015 13:06 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i mean before you can send ranged illusion that are strong enough to solo kill supports during split push
now they're just chump melee ones
;/
did you experience this? because i was under the impressoin the illu transformation mechanic doesn't go both ways (it transforms melee to ranged but it doesnt transform them back when leaving the 900 range)
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Lmfao new sunder is so good. Can't count how many times I survived 3 man ganks.
I still build him the same way as before.
Aquila then it depends on the game if I get treads or bots. If i go treads, my next item is sny then followed by skadi then manta and 2 butterflies. If I got bots, i finish first yasha then bots. Followed by skadi and manta 2 butterflies.
I need to watch ppy replays and try his build. He goes for aquila, treads and morbid mask early. Then gets radiance and heart after iirc.
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On September 30 2015 18:11 Fwizzz wrote:
Lmfao new sunder is so good. Can't count how many times I survived 3 man ganks.
I still build him the same way as before.
Aquila then it depends on the game if I get treads or bots. If i go treads, my next item is sny then followed by skadi then manta and 2 butterflies. If I got bots, i finish first yasha then bots. Followed by skadi and manta 2 butterflies.
I need to watch ppy replays and try his build. He goes for aquila, treads and morbid mask early. Then gets radiance and heart after iirc.
Puppey uses his morbid mask to solo Roshan (if you do it before minute 16:00 Treads/Morbid/Aquila/Yasha is enough to kill him during one Meta, but ideally you want to have your Yasha around minute 12-13 and then you should do it asap) and uses the Aegis to stay relevant while he farms his relic.
Imo there's even less reason to put early points into Reflections now than it was during the last patch. It's much worse on lane. However, it's beastly come mid game team fights so it's definitely worth maxing before stats.
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support tb legit?>
Blink Sunder their carry, reflection. EZ team fight, ez lyfe.
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On September 30 2015 13:48 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 13:06 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i mean before you can send ranged illusion that are strong enough to solo kill supports during split push
now they're just chump melee ones
;/ did you experience this? because i was under the impressoin the illu transformation mechanic doesn't go both ways (it transforms melee to ranged but it doesnt transform them back when leaving the 900 range) I can confirm they revert back to melee.
Does anyone have any tips/tricks for using his illusions? I play a lot of Naga Siren and TB illusions just seem so bad to use in comparison. Can't put individual illusions in control groups so when I have 2 illusions up I have to select them individually and on top of that they aren't individually strong enough to push lanes or clear camps by themselves. I mostly just have them follow my hero for extra dps which I know is pretty awful.
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United States2186 Posts
As soon as you get radi tb illusions can clear whatever you want, but you may have to micro them a bit on ursa camps and when cutting. W/o radi you need like 2.5-3 big items to do much with your illusions.
As good as reflection is mid-lategame the illusion nerfs are quite massive as well. Still feels so dependent on having an unpressured early game but with reflection being 25% you are wholly reliant on your supports.
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i think you have to micro them with just radi on any big camp, just issue a order to move to max leash range so theyll kite the camp (i have autoattack on on illu heroes)
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I love this guy not for his illusions, not for his sunder, but because of his sweet, sweet attack animation. Other than am, I find it very, very easy to last hit with him solely because of it. If I get a good lane, it's pretty easy to come close to near perfect cs because of it.
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Ok so, I've liked Terrorblade for a long time, and since I've been having moderate success with him I would like to share some thoughts for you guys to critique and consider:
So, a poster in this page talked about the ppy build with morbid mask and going for Roshan after Yasha. I've been building into Treads Aquila HotD and then going for rosh asap. With freefarm, this is before the 12min mark, which is great since Rosh hasnt scaled up from minute 12 yet. It works absolutely wonders with the wolf (you take 46 or something seconds from the meta with wolf) and with frost ogre you can do it too. Hell, you can even do it with a regular fat ogre or any creep at all, but some of them take more than meta duration (60 seconds maybe). None of them puts your hp in danger, and since people think "oh he's farming jungle probably" its pretty failproof.
So, after HotD, just get wolves or a big troll/ursa or frost ogre (or even satyr if you're against slardar/bh/thatsortofshit) and be happy! Micro like a god. Illusions to one lane taking all last hits if possible, creep to another lane, and stay happy in jungle.
Then I get a Yasha and just go for radiance or SnY or Manta... it depends on the game... If the game is equal-to-good, just go Radiance and get 6slotted and become a monster in teamfights in the meantime. If the game is bad-to-equal, just go Radiance anyways... maybe its the only way to come back in the game, idk... You have to have good judgement.
So, yeah, thats it... Just go rosh after HotD with a dominated creep, take Rosh, take towers, get Radiance and shit. My 6slot is something like travels manta, satanic, radiance, skadi, bfly/mkb/crit/bkb. gl hf!
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what is normal build on terrorblade these days? you go radiance or s&y/manta?
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I've been playing a lot of TB in 6.85 (only some games in 6.86). My build is wand, pms, aquila, drums, travel ->manta ->skadi into whatever I need (usually bfly but vs SF I prefer mkb/daedalus because of the requiem -50% dmg).
I either go 4 0 4 as a build or 4 0 2 -> 4 4 2. The latter is more farm oriented and in every case I just farm with illusions in lane while farming the jungle with the main hero. Skipping illusions is really questionable and is probably done out of laziness most of the time imo... They give so much farm.
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to be honest, i enjoy armlet for funny games.
but usually, the goto is a mixture of hotd, drums, yasha, manta, skadi.
i have not played a radiance terror blade game in a long time, and i feel like it would be quite risky of a buildup in most games.
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On March 10 2016 20:12 nanaoei wrote:
to be honest, i enjoy armlet for funny games.
but usually, the goto is a mixture of hotd, drums, yasha, manta, skadi.
i have not played a radiance terror blade game in a long time, and i feel like it would be quite risky of a buildup in most games.
The buildup is very risky, but it increases Terrorblade's farm like no other item I can find. It is really hard when you have treads/aquila/manta to not go next item radiance because of all the damage and farm....it's so good.
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i dont think radiance is that great on tb, my experience is that i usually regret it because i either misjudged why i should do it
i think theres 2 conditions (and they must both be true) to go radiance on tb these days
1. you have judged your team is useless at teamfighting either for lineup reasons or skill reasons
2. you have judged that the other team is bad at defending rats for lineup reasons for skill reasons
and pretty much thats never the case
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radiance tb is so shit, only because his illusions are no naga illusions. It wasnt that great when it was 6.82 TB where his illusions are actually pretty tanky, but they are just shit and bad now. Every hero alive can kill his illusion with a right click.
I remember the good old days, where once you get a skadi and manta, you can basically send one of his illusions to clear an ancient camp by themselves. Good old times. RIP TB.
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On March 11 2016 05:05 Kaj wrote:
radiance tb is so shit, only because his illusions are no naga illusions. It wasnt that great when it was 6.82 TB where his illusions are actually pretty tanky, but they are just shit and bad now. Every hero alive can kill his illusion with a right click.
I remember the good old days, where once you get a skadi and manta, you can basically send one of his illusions to clear an ancient camp by themselves. Good old times. RIP TB.
Honestly that his illus are shit is the main reason to go radi in the first place. There's no item combi that lets them fight anything at 6-8k nw, with radi you can at least creepskip and farm jungle if you micro a lot. Without radi your illu won't kill the wave nor the camp.
With radi they are at least annoying.
Imo it's a judgement call depending on how good your lategame is and how hard the enemy will push.
Radi/manta is the "I'm a naga"-build, you want to splitpush and control the map and farm until you are 6-slotted.
Btw I see very little reason to put more than one point into illus on radi tb early on.
Stats-heavy ((drums)/sny/(bkb)/skadi) is the "I need to get shit done in fights" build where you pretend to be tanky and want fight whenever meta is off cd.
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if u want to build radiance on tb u probably should have just picked spectre i think
his illusions are too squishy to get good use out of radiance. they probably push faster if you just tank them up with manta/skadi and have them hit creep waves
if you have a manta his illusions can kill camps just fine
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i dont know. i think TB is very strong in lane with +1 and even solo against many offlaners.
this is the sort of hero who can destroy lane, tp offlane and destroy that lane as well.
grab a fast manta, for instance, start pressuring t2/t3's by 15 minutes or less.
i played a lot of TB before the big nerfs and the addition to captain's draft, and his illusions were ridiculous strong and absolutely needed to be nerfed. now they survive long enough to tickle towers. you can't win by sitting 4k range from the enemy base and sending naga-like illusions.
i don't think radiance necessarily provides farm where it doens't exist, i think that's a comfort item for carry players who don't try to optimize lane presence and jungle stacking. my opinion is simply that it's a strong lane hero who secures towers and provides a lot of lane pressure midgame, even without items. the way i see it, if you buy a fast radiance, your team suffers, you lose towers, you lose control of jungle, lanes suffer, game gets hard.
with cds, with some important items, his single target is insane. if you get focused, his reflections are basically darkseer illusions on a shorter CD. he doens't need damage and can itemize HP and bkb to stay relevant.
i just don't see where it fits into games where you've got say, and OD on the other team, though.
radiance is definitely not a cost efficient item against that hero.
i just dislike the idea of having to farm next item constantly between major fights on this hero. it's just less understandable when players lane better, group better, and make better use of smokes and vision.
this is like an ember style hero except, there's no instant escape, no disables in his kit, no waveclear
so niche and unreliable in comparison.
what are you going to do when you meet this hero in your jungle, for w/e reason?
you can just glimmer or straight up TP if it's an issue. he has to use a huge CD just to be able to deal damage.
you count his cooldown like you count tidehunter's ravage and in some ways it plays out similarly.
it's overall a very predictable playstyle, and i suppose that's why people choose to just play him as a different sort of radiance carrier. sits in jungle, farms lane safely, come out ahead in teamfights due to large networth and damage output, and you can't focus him willy nilly.
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This thread will forever be radiance vs manta builds its been years guys come on
I play this guy to rice unranked games so my builds are pretty weird. I don't get reflection, I get 1 pt in meta, and I max illusions and stats and play perpetual farm / rat with treads yasha radiance around 18 mins. I pretty much only do this in clowny unranked games, but I don't see radiance working without the stats, and if your gunna farm, might as well all-in on the farming efficiency
Basically the idea is to use quelling blade illusions with tread strength, stats, and yasha to CS crazy effienciently. It's not very complicated and it's a fun way to play him. You can easily break all your Dota buff farming records.
Doesn't really work though because you build an enormous net worth advantage and one pick off is generally game losing. Doesn't have sleep like naga unfortunately
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The new Vanguard seems pretty good on Terrorblade. Treads->Vanguard->Raindrops and push with your team while you build into more traditional items. Maxing Q second with a value point in W seems like a good idea, though I personally don't quite like that build. You farm so slow and lose a lot of your pushing power.
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People have also suggested Dragon Lance now on TB since it gives 15 str and agi which is interesting for a fighting build as well. It's a pretty economical source of stats and the extra attack range has its use in teamfights.
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On May 03 2016 02:36 Logo wrote:
People have also suggested Dragon Lance now on TB since it gives 15 str and agi which is interesting for a fighting build as well. It's a pretty economical source of stats and the extra attack range has its use in teamfights.
This makes me want to try jungle TB, and play him kind of similar too the old Lycan.
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On May 03 2016 02:36 Logo wrote:
People have also suggested Dragon Lance now on TB since it gives 15 str and agi which is interesting for a fighting build as well. It's a pretty economical source of stats and the extra attack range has its use in teamfights.
Wow I didn't even notice how freaking insane those stats per cost are. That's sny's stats for half the cost. How am I not building this on every ranged hero I consider drums on?
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On May 04 2016 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2016 02:36 Logo wrote:
People have also suggested Dragon Lance now on TB since it gives 15 str and agi which is interesting for a fighting build as well. It's a pretty economical source of stats and the extra attack range has its use in teamfights. Wow I didn't even notice how freaking insane those stats per cost are. That's sny's stats for half the cost. How am I not building this on every ranged hero I consider drums on?
the stats are good but thats all it is
u hvae to ask urself do i rly want a dead end item just for the stats?
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it's not the end you can build hurrican pike!!
not entirely sure why that would be useful but hey
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On May 03 2016 02:09 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
The new Vanguard seems pretty good on Terrorblade. Treads->Vanguard->Raindrops and push with your team while you build into more traditional items. Maxing Q second with a value point in W seems like a good idea, though I personally don't quite like that build. You farm so slow and lose a lot of your pushing power.
this is wrong, you want to max illusions to farm/push faster.
Idk about vanguard, i tried armlet with some success
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Vanguard is good now cause dmg block works on illusions. U can perpetually lane / jungle. Also gives you the hp pool to survive mid-game. Traditionally ur super susceptible to burst in the 10-20 min window.
Abyssal is pretty good late too so u don't waste a slot.
I know arm let is the hot item atm but tb doesn't need the armor and the dmg block on illusions is just straight up better
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On May 04 2016 11:52 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On May 03 2016 02:36 Logo wrote:
People have also suggested Dragon Lance now on TB since it gives 15 str and agi which is interesting for a fighting build as well. It's a pretty economical source of stats and the extra attack range has its use in teamfights. Wow I didn't even notice how freaking insane those stats per cost are. That's sny's stats for half the cost. How am I not building this on every ranged hero I consider drums on? the stats are good but thats all it is u hvae to ask urself do i rly want a dead end item just for the stats?
Well you can pretty much say the same thing for drums. And with average game times of 30-40 minutes, 2k gold items have become a lot more valuable.
Also hurricane Pike beats sny in pretty much every imaginable situation. It's mainly mediocre on tb because his illus want the target to stay close. It still offers amazing utility.
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how do you actually teamfight with this guy?
your range is pretty shit, and now everybody builds blademail, and your HP pool isn't too hot. A lot of times I died try to sunder people because you're nearly always disabled toward the end of your lifespan
Do you try to focus on the squishies or what. A lot of times I feel I have item but not quite sure how to properly fight
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United States2186 Posts
Bait your team mercilessly and walk in either behind your team or from a side angle after key enemy spells have been used. TB fighting can be really tricky since you suck so much if you get whalloped by aoe nukes or chain disabled but you turn the fight around in a couple seconds if they are already committed and aren't ready to focus you or your team can disable or occupy them before they can reach you. It's unfortunately really easy in the pre-bkb phase to see one enemy hero get disabled, walk up and hit them for a second, then get blasted into dust by a blink epi or echo slam+backup since the enemy hasn't committed yet
If you went radi and have a sense of where their team, is you can often screw with their initiations with running an illusion ahead of your team. If your range form is on cd and your team lacks great ways to hold the enemy in place or the other team has really strong aoe, it can often be better to split up some illusions and have them each go on a different hero like Naga.
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On May 10 2016 05:50 evanthebouncy! wrote:
how do you actually teamfight with this guy?
your range is pretty shit, and now everybody builds blademail, and your HP pool isn't too hot. A lot of times I died try to sunder people because you're nearly always disabled toward the end of your lifespan
Do you try to focus on the squishies or what. A lot of times I feel I have item but not quite sure how to properly fight
You fight by being absurdly more farmed than the opponent. It's actually the only way to play that hero.
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On May 10 2016 10:46 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 05:50 evanthebouncy! wrote:
how do you actually teamfight with this guy?
your range is pretty shit, and now everybody builds blademail, and your HP pool isn't too hot. A lot of times I died try to sunder people because you're nearly always disabled toward the end of your lifespan
Do you try to focus on the squishies or what. A lot of times I feel I have item but not quite sure how to properly fight You fight by being absurdly more farmed than the opponent. It's actually the only way to play that hero.
thats also my conclusion after playing him recently
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So offlane tb is pretty much not viable eh... Been doing a weird build up to radiance but maybe that's an bad idea
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SoCal8908 Posts
im still not a believer in radiance TB. his Q is so good, but he's so damn squishy that its hard to find a good opportunity to fight.
basically like others have said you need to be more farmed, or split push until you're more farmed.
I've always liked building BOTs on this hero, but drums got nerfed so im not sure how I'd adjust to tank up afterwards
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If you're going offlane it seems like you'd want more economical items than a Radiance. Like LD gets away with it because the bear is incredibly tanky early on even without items. Like for about the same price you could have Vanguard + Diffusal and that seems like it'd do a lot more from the offlane than Radiance.
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SoCal8908 Posts
LD also gets away with it because he can actually hit creeps. im not sure how you do that as TB offlane heh
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thoughts on pipe? not too expensive tbh
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Ld also pressures the offlane and wins most 1v1 match ups so supports have to stay in lane or their carry gets rekt
Terrorblade does not win 1v1 matchups
I don't know where pipe would fit. TB 6 slots so quickly that it seems inefficient. Skaadi manta components do a similar thing
The only real deviation I can see from old tb is replacing drums with vanguard or maybe lance but lance seems kind of dead end
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TB wins 1v1 against so many heros. You turn on meta and what can they do? Meta + Reflection is really strong. the only downside is you won't have mirror image to farm
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On May 12 2016 12:10 evanthebouncy! wrote:
thoughts on pipe? not too expensive tbh
I think the big reason against hood/pipe is that magic resistance is actually bad on the hero compared to raw strength. He has so little basic strength that hood only starts getting efficient after 1 or 2 big items.
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Why is everyone buying Dragon Lance for Terrorblade?
They're also maxing Metamorphosis over Conjure Image
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mid tb is good
dragon lance is good for early pushes
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On May 12 2016 14:54 evanthebouncy! wrote:
TB wins 1v1 against so many heros. You turn on meta and what can they do? Meta + Reflection is really strong. the only downside is you won't have mirror image to farm
Could be OK mid lane but in an offlane position ur gunna have to move away from your tower. Then you are exposed to ganks with bad stat gain.
And basically you just ignore / avoid him during meta.
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On May 21 2016 14:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
Why is everyone buying Dragon Lance for Terrorblade?
They're also maxing Metamorphosis over Conjure Image
Very good fighting item, very good stats. The upgrade isn't breathtaking but an awesome item nonetheless. Early on with just DL you deal a lot of damage during fights both through sheer dps and your range.
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On May 21 2016 14:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
Why is everyone buying Dragon Lance for Terrorblade?
They're also maxing Metamorphosis over Conjure Image
DL just gives insane stats per cost. +300 life +15 agi is just rly nice for tb. The range is more of a bonus. It's close 3x drums health for roughly the same price.
Meta over CI is pretty much a no-brainer imho, early on your illus don't tank anything and the points don't change that. The question is more if you want CI over Reflection.
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mid tb wants reflection over image
farming tb wants image over reflection and over meta
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On May 24 2016 02:53 Erasme wrote:
mid tb wants reflection over image
farming tb wants image over reflection and over meta
doesn't mid tb like, max his Q first or sometihng and just spams that on CD?
Ive seen some 7k player do tha tand just relentlessly win mid
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On May 24 2016 07:22 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 02:53 Erasme wrote:
mid tb wants reflection over image
farming tb wants image over reflection and over meta doesn't mid tb like, max his Q first or sometihng and just spams that on CD? Ive seen some 7k player do tha tand just relentlessly win mid
Reflection is Q.
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Edit oh nevermind didn't read erasme's post correctly
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On May 24 2016 07:22 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 02:53 Erasme wrote:
mid tb wants reflection over image
farming tb wants image over reflection and over meta doesn't mid tb like, max his Q first or sometihng and just spams that on CD? Ive seen some 7k player do tha tand just relentlessly win mid
yea that asian i dont remember his name
I played it a bunch of times and I truly believe that maxing meta before reflection is better so u go 2-0-4-1
reflection is a very strong spell for only 50mana u get all those sweet auras.
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On May 24 2016 10:07 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 07:22 Comeh wrote:On May 24 2016 02:53 Erasme wrote:
mid tb wants reflection over image
farming tb wants image over reflection and over meta doesn't mid tb like, max his Q first or sometihng and just spams that on CD? Ive seen some 7k player do tha tand just relentlessly win mid yea that asian i dont remember his name I played it a bunch of times and I truly believe that maxing meta before reflection is better so u go 2-0-4-1 reflection is a very strong spell for only 50mana u get all those sweet auras.
True. What are you building on him these days? Drums feel awful, and bots seem ideal but I feel like you needs treads, wand aquila, and something else...Still not sure what the build is on this hero.
o right dragon lance
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On May 24 2016 10:07 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 07:22 Comeh wrote:On May 24 2016 02:53 Erasme wrote:
mid tb wants reflection over image
farming tb wants image over reflection and over meta doesn't mid tb like, max his Q first or sometihng and just spams that on CD? Ive seen some 7k player do tha tand just relentlessly win mid yea that asian i dont remember his name I played it a bunch of times and I truly believe that maxing meta before reflection is better so u go 2-0-4-1 reflection is a very strong spell for only 50mana u get all those sweet auras.
It depends on the enemy mid laner I think. If it's something whose illusions hurt but has low hp (E voker, wr, qop even), maxing Q is better I think. I mostly play TB safe lane but sometimes I go mid with him and he's so good.
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SoCal8908 Posts
the drums nerf brutalizes the travels build.
I think with his buffs you can afford to still go travels though, as long as you commit to split pushing. im not sure how id build him with travels though, i'll have to play him some.
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I think Dragon Lance helps you go travels more than Drums did. It's 14strength so skipping PT does not leave you weak.
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in all honesty I think armlet might be the way to go.
from playing TB he needs hp regen at some point in sustained farming.
It's only 500 more gold expensive than drum.
Compare with dragon lance it gives 200 more health, for 300 more gold.
Armlet illusions sounds pretty dope too.
Whoever said earlier that "the only way to play TB is to be more farmed" is absolutely correct though. He doesn't do much beside being a super tanker and dps creep in team fights.
I think builds shoudl focus on tankiness, that's all he needs. Probably armlet/BoT into skadi / heart to get a sunder off in fights
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Armlet is not the way to go.
aquila boots dragon lance yasha travel manta is.
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On May 25 2016 04:37 evanthebouncy! wrote:
in all honesty I think armlet might be the way to go.
from playing TB he needs hp regen at some point in sustained farming.
It's only 500 more gold expensive than drum.
Compare with dragon lance it gives 200 more health, for 300 more gold.
Armlet illusions sounds pretty dope too.
Whoever said earlier that "the only way to play TB is to be more farmed" is absolutely correct though. He doesn't do much beside being a super tanker and dps creep in team fights.
I think builds shoudl focus on tankiness, that's all he needs. Probably armlet/BoT into skadi / heart to get a sunder off in fights
Armlet is not bad but dragon lance is just better I think. The added range is really felt in fights. On top of this, TB hardly takes any damage from creep because of his insane armor and good natural regen.
Getting skadi before manta is very questionable in every game I feel. Manta helps you farm way faster, synergizes very well with travels and deals insane DPS. Remember to use it while in melee form so you don't wait 193482309428389hours to have it off cd!
TB usually cannot afford to not join fights by the time he has dragon lance and maybe a yasha. You should totally join most games because you'll be dealing insane dps and you won't be THAT squishy. You also push very quickly. Ofc, when fight is over you resume your powerfarming but that's normal.
Aquila is a very good item.
PMS is very good too now more than it was before with illusions being able to tank easier (You can send illusions to the small camp and medium camps while you farm in lane during the laning stage and they'll net you some extra cs).
The teardrop thingy is also pretty good because you can spam illusions more freely AND you pretty much cannot be bursted down before getting a sunder off unless you get ganked by 3-4 people (and even then they have to be good heroes at killing you).
QB pms aquila tear boots DL should be your "early" inventory I think. A bit slot starved but tear can be sold when you need the slot. The price is low and it will probably save you from a gank or something.
Yasha and travs should come right after and this is where your farming will explode because of your movement speed mostly but also yasha's damage.
Manta is always a must.
Skadi is almost always a must. Against an antimage I would consider getting a heart instead but you get the point.
Now comes the part in which you have to adapt. Most games butterfly is the way because it synergizes with your large HP pool for EHP and makes your illusions very hard to take down but also very dangerous.
A BKB at this point can be the way against some heroes like zeus and all those annoying guys.
After these items, you have to choose between the usual late late game ones like satanic/mkb/daedalus(usually not worth it but it can be great if your team is a bit short on the disable side and you need to kill people very quickly... a rare choice but a great one sometimes).
note1: If you are stomping a team that relies on autoattack, consider buying a talisman of evasion right after your butterfly to go for a pretty much unstoppable GG push since they can't afford MKBs.
note2: diffusal seems pretty good but I haven't tested it yet. I will try it soon.
note3: Hurricane pike can be worth getting. It's not really that bad but it has to be last thing you do most games.
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Two words, Vanguard TB. Legit as fuck
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Last pro tb I saw went something like brown boots aquilla vanguard dl and either yasha skadi or manta skadi.
And yeah tb is probably one of the few heroes where vanguard beats armlet. The life-degen really hurts when your life pool is that small and damage block is probably more efficient than armor.
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I think armlet is better. The extra burst of 500 health is more potent on TB than on any other heros with lesser armour. TB already has huge armor, all he needs is extra health to survive.
The armlet illusions has 500 more HP than a tb illusion w/o armlet, if you tried to use them to farm you'll see that they're mega potent at tanking creep waves, definitely comparable to vanguard. If you're low on HP you can armlet toggle, make illusion, and sunder the illusion to get back to comfortably 50% hp as well.
I mean TB spends sometime being ranged too, I just don't see vanguard gets its full value. I like dragon lance more if anything, 300 extra health, and the added range will help you not to be in the middle of things and get bursted
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There is a couple of reasons why vanguard TB is actually really a good item on him. but here is the main 2 reasons really why its much better on him.
First off
1) Sustain. Having Vanguard with his innate health regen actually gives him close to 12 hp/sec even at lvl 1. Making his sustain incredible, allowing him to fuck over any solo offlaner in the game if he gets only a few mins of babying, and even survive any potential offlaner's harass. allowing him to trade more than effectively.
2) his illusions benefit WAY too much from the damage block. Infact, once you have vanguard, just sending your level 1 illusion to medium/small camps on autoattack path will allow them to clear it before the minute spawn. This is incredible, as no other item besides vanguard can allow his illusions to do that at such an early level, unless its something like a skadi lol, and this speeds up your farm SOO much.
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Yea, but...
Your illusions ONLY benefit from the damage block, and vanguard blocks only 12 damage more than PMS while costing something like 1.5k gold more. The block drops to a measly 6 damage extra when you're in ranged form.
Worth? Strongly disagree.
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lel... no. PMS only blocks about effectively 11 dmg or so from creeps. So vanguard is actually a HUGE boost to TB illusions in regards to using illusions to clear creep camps. The best aspect is really the sustain and the ability to jungle with illusions greatly increasing gpm. I repeat, NO other item, outside of a heart or skadi will allow you to farm jungle with illusions like a vanguard will. EVER.
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I mean, i rarely have HP problems while clearing camps with TB, and with tango salve stout I rarely have problems with regen with TB in lane. Mane appeal of VG is the VIT booster it gives...but I think i'd rather just get the DL and start progressing towards my first main item.
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the hp problem and the mana problem is complimentary.
If you have enough mana sustain you use illusions to tank and your main hero takes no damage, and you continue to create full hp illus
if you have enough sustain you let your main hero tank and illusions do dps
Given the 2 scenarios I actually think using illusions to tank is superior. So the right thing might be get more mana regen items, I'm thinking a basi-ring and a teardrop. Then you should have infinite sustain, not taking any damage on your main hero.
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I was messing with the hero builder, terrorblade uses 80 mana per ~15 seconds
so if you want to go full illusion spam everytime it is on cd, you'd need 320 mana / min, which translates to roughly 5 mana / sec
To achive that you can do 1 basi ring 4 infused raindrops
#sweg
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Its not even about using illusions to tank while u jungle. What I am talking about is sending illusions to farm creep waves, even taking out creep camps by themselves once you have higher levels in illusions, all the while you remaining at full hp due to vanguard, while clearing jungle creeps with ur main hero.
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but i already do that with the super beefy armlet illusions O_o
I guess we should compare with illusion has higher value
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Sounds like armlet vs vanguard on tb is a game to game call. If you need higher physical resistance and there's a lot of aoe, go vanguard for the damage block and since your illus get toasted every nuke anyways.
If your illus have a realistic chance to survive the aoe with some bonus health or there's a lot of single target burst, go armlet for 2x bonus hp.
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Dragon Lance is another alternative--it's an INSANE value stats item now, +15 str/agi for only 2k gold. I think it's the new drums for ranged carries.
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Armlet on TB, is the same reason as why armlet on void or PA or whoever is NOT good.
Armlet best functions in the sense that you have carries that have some sort of sustain built in for it to be good. thats why most of the better armlet carries are like wraith king, dk, lifestealer, dragon knight. The only exception is CK because he makes good use of it if just for his illusions.
Armlet TB feels underwhelming as fuck. First off, there is simply no reason for TB to turn on armlet while farming. This is because he has no way to get back any of the lost health. even if you are using illusions to tank, so the extra farming speed is extremely marginal.
There are also many times where you just get jumped by 2-3 heroes at once and chained stun to death. you wont get the additional HP boost if you cant toggle it, and even in the event that you DO manage to turn on the armlet, the extra hp doesnt pay off as much as a vanguard does with the dmg block and innate 250 hp. Truth to be told, Vanguard will let you survive 2 and even 3 man ganks by allowing you time to survive the intital burst and get a sunder off.
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but u can get blink after ur armlet and slay ppl with ur sunder
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SoCal8908 Posts
Ignoring the fact that you're saying armlet on PA isnt good...
I agree with your reasoning on why it's bad on tb. The hero makes no use of the active whatsoever.
He maybe likes the hp but overall, you're going to be using illusions to push lanes and farming the jungle until you're super beefy bc you have all the items you need.
I actually really like radiance this patch bc he received some buffs in the ehp department so you can hit the jungle a lot sooner and be farming the lane at the same time = faster relic.
I wasn't big on radiance with this hero but right now, I'm a fan.
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Vanguard is better just because you can make it an abyssal on a hero who gets 6 slotted in 30 minutes. You gotta be as slot efficient as possible. Abyssal kinda replaces heart / satanic which never were great for tb anyway.
Also the dmg block on illusions allows you to last hit in lane (illus can survive more right clicks) while you cycle camps easier, Keeps u safe and off the map. Especially good if ur going treads vanguard radiance or treads yasha vg radiance. I'm not sure what build is optimal.
Tear drop is very good if you are skipping Aquila (if ur committing to radiance build you generally don't push as fast, opting to cycle jungle when wave is near their tower)
I still think he has the same problems as before. Massive gold xp lead -- one death and you've swung 5k net worth
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TB? 6 slotted 30 mins? TB farms fast. but hes no Alchemist levels of farm. General TB timings in the past used to be aqulia, treads, manta, skadi 25 mins. His 6 slotted timing should be around the 40-45 min mark. Which is still far and beyond what most carries can accomplish, and much closer to Naga's item timings.
And you speak like TB is a bad carry. TB is actually one of the strongest carries late game. Especially with the new AoE reflection which is basically a wall on a 16 sec cooldown, Terrorblade is terrifying late game. And hes carries the aegis pretty well now, due to the fact the metamorphsis persist even through death.
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On May 28 2016 19:19 BluemoonSC wrote:
The hero makes no use of the active whatsoever.
???
Armlet + Shadowblade => Sunder => Kill
:DD
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On May 29 2016 01:13 Kaj wrote:
TB? 6 slotted 30 mins? TB farms fast. but hes no Alchemist levels of farm. General TB timings in the past used to be aqulia, treads, manta, skadi 25 mins. His 6 slotted timing should be around the 40-45 min mark. Which is still far and beyond what most carries can accomplish, and much closer to Naga's item timings.
And you speak like TB is a bad carry. TB is actually one of the strongest carries late game. Especially with the new AoE reflection which is basically a wall on a 16 sec cooldown, Terrorblade is terrifying late game. And hes carries the aegis pretty well now, due to the fact the metamorphsis persist even through death.
Depends on ur build.
Old TB used to do treads/yasha/radiance by 17 mins, skaadi by 22-23, manta by 25-26, butterfly by 30-32. Vanguard/abyssal doesn't hurt these timings much, might improve them tbh
He's not a bad carry its more that he is like meepo/alch, carries huge net worth in order to stay ahead and close the game out.
6 slot being treads / manta / radiance / butterfly / Skaadi / abyssal
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I dont know what you are smoking, but if you are serious that yasha, treads, radiance at 17 mins is a realistic timing for terrorblade. An extremely optimistic timing for such a build would be somewhat before 20 mins, and that build is still shit for a majority of the game because TB is no Naga, nor he should attempt to be her.
What i meant by unrealistic is that, you are probably counting on at least downing one if not even two towers, and enemies letting you have complete free farm from min 1 onwards.
Sad to say now, the safelane is not that safe as it was in the past, and unless you get an extremely favorable 1v1 lane matchup as TB, you would be struggling to even get yasha radiance by 20. thats also discounting the fact that the enemy wont come to gank you or try to harass you out of the lane with your full no regen build.
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It can be done fairly reliably with just the safe lane tower. You go pms treads quelling, get a rain drop, CS in lane with illusions while you cycle jungle. It relies on having a strong lane support, for sure, but the support can get full xp while you take all the CS.
You can start jungling once you have treads / pms / quelling, at about 5 mins. I like maxing W because I'm greedy as fuck.
Under ideal laning, you get 120-130 cs in the first 10 min. I've done it and I'm barely 5k, I am bad at the game, so someone else could do it much better
I'm not saying it's the ideal build but if you wanna farm its 100% doable. And yeah, you'd probably want to go vanguard instead of yasha which would slow things down I think but let you farm safely idk
Tbh I think it would be easier to do now that they've buffed dmg block and added raindrop. The other tb buffs are just extra help. The game is more aggressive now but that also means more space opens up on the map, and the new defensive items and buffed radiance are pretty good
Edit - all that said, I don't know if there's a place in the game for farming carries anymore so it might not even be worth playing that way
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United States2186 Posts
Vs most solo offlaners and your team actually doing stuff, treads yasha radi at 17m is very reasonable. It's only tough with bad support vs 2 offlaners and a contested jungle. With freefarm it's 15-16m. Obviously radi's a bad build if you don't know how to abuse the hero correctly, since you lose the timing advantage and map control it offers. Even in games where I'm under heavy pressure getting vanguard yasha radi at 20m is not hard, unless my team is fighting me for farm.
I think TB is probably the least figured out hero in the game; it's so painful watching pros only use a portion of its potential. In pubs, unfortunately, the biggest obstacle to winning is people thinking they have to do some dumb dual offlane against a strong safelane when the difference between tb with freefarm and tb with a somewhat contested lane is about double the cs and a mediocre middle game vs total control of the map.
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After playing with it I feel like treads yasha van is best, yasha helps farm speed too much to skip
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some solo offlaners are just brutal for TB, and he simply cannot deal with them very well at all.
The hardest offlaners are probably dark seer, enchantress etc. And its simply not a matter of supports doing shit, because against certain offlaners hes just not very good at all.
A very realistic vanguard aqulia treads timing would be somewhat between 10-12 mins. 10 is an extremely optimistic timing in which your cs will be around 70-80 by 10 mins. And thats with the help of a regen item like ring of health before vanguard. And you are telling me that you can have treads yasha radiance, with NO stats item and regen item before 17 mins consistently against some of the offlaners that will come and fuck you over from time to time, or try to nuke you out of lane whatever? NO, its NOT realistic. Extremely so. You NEED some kind of sustain item. Even Nagas who go brown boots aqulia, bottle, pms and qb, get their radiance timing at around 16-18 mins in extremely optimistic scenerio with jungle stacks waiting for them, and semi free farm lanes.
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The power of vanguard is that you only really need like a good 6-8 mins of pure support babying then you can easily solo the lane yourself having all the exp and farm, while your supports roam around doing shit, because u have both the sustain and tankability to survive most 2-3 man rotations. And there are very very few heroes that can out harass a vanguard TB out of farm 1v1.
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no need to be so controversial. it's just forum discussion on a hero.
some people swear by drums before yasha -> radiance. either way, that 20 minute window is brutally dangerous and it feels like it's do or die.
enemy has some ability to aoe/clear the two illusions or they build a linkens during that advantage, you're kinda toast. you can't even panic-sunder illusions because they'll be too low to be any useful.
honestly feels like you need to be playing from ahead every step of the way with his hero and his problem point oddly being early-midgame. which just means i'll have to switch up my play, hide in jungle, and hope they don't successfully contest towers going down. not too different than playing AM without an escape, or naga with no song.
during extended farming, there isn't really mana to do much else but farm using illusions.
patches ago i used to play around and make basi into vlads. needless to say, it was not a great idea, and helm dom. is better.
now the illusions are just straight up one of the weakest in the game, do not snapshot metamorphosis, and you used to get two. man. those were the days, rofl.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On May 29 2016 11:09 Ver wrote:
Vs most solo offlaners and your team actually doing stuff, treads yasha radi at 17m is very reasonable. It's only tough with bad support vs 2 offlaners and a contested jungle. With freefarm it's 15-16m. Obviously radi's a bad build if you don't know how to abuse the hero correctly, since you lose the timing advantage and map control it offers. Even in games where I'm under heavy pressure getting vanguard yasha radi at 20m is not hard, unless my team is fighting me for farm.
I think TB is probably the least figured out hero in the game; it's so painful watching pros only use a portion of its potential. In pubs, unfortunately, the biggest obstacle to winning is people thinking they have to do some dumb dual offlane against a strong safelane when the difference between tb with freefarm and tb with a somewhat contested lane is about double the cs and a mediocre middle game vs total control of the map.
Ya I'm not sure how one even copes with a tb that has total map control this patch other than making sure it doesn't get to that point. The hero is super good.
PS anyone swearing by drums was from last patch for sure.
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the biggest issue i have is people pulling timings out of their ass, which has no basis in logic, or is even realistic. Saying they could get a consistent pre 20 min timing of treads yasha radiance is just bullshit tbqh, and TB is NOT the kind of hero that can reliably get a good timing off.
FYI, saying you can manage a vanguard yasha radiance before 17 mins means that you are able to farm a radiance in SEVEN MINS outside of other factors. The only hero that is remotely able to that on a consistent basis is ALCHEMIST. In fact, 6-7 mins is more or less the timing in which most alchs will get their radiance. And this is a alchemist we are talking about here, and the consistent radiance timing has to do more with his kit, and the items in which he gets and the lane he goes to, as well as his comeback mechanics (stacks in jungle) which all factor into a stable timing for him.
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It's not rly a timing anyone is pulling out of anywhere. A year or so ago beesa posted item timings he thought standard for his radiance TB builds. The games changed a lot since (some ways worse for tb, some ways better) but they are good to aim for.
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They were standard under freefarm not on average.
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United States2186 Posts
Beesa's timing was 16m actually for freefarm treads yasha radi. I've found you can get it in 1430-15m with either ~3 towers or a perfect lane. In single player I can get it at ~1230 with 1 tower on dire; I haven't tried radiant yet but I'm guessing it's at least 30-60s slower. I also found that there's no reason to go treads anymore with the new changes. Once you have yasha or at least blade of alacrity you can send illusions to kill medium camps on their own if you are spawning them close enough, and it works better with aquila than with treads. TB can kill the early hard camp well enough without treads anyway now due to the pms on illusions and extra armor.
It's important to know the ideal timings for great situations so you can realize you're being inefficient and adjust your farming patterns. If your team makes space for you, you had better repay them effectively. These timings are very realistic for the x percent (33-50%?) of games where you get that scenario. Obviously some games your team doesn't protect you, or picks too greedy of a lineup, hogs the safe farming areas early on, and forces someone (you) to make space, or the enemy make a few great rotations early.
I looked at my last 19 radi tb games and had these timings. I don't think I had that many kills on offlaners overall.
-9 games I had boots aquila (or treads no aquila) yasha radi in the ~15-17 range,
-2 games at ~18
-4 games at ~20 (1 with vg+the above)
-4 games ~21-22 (1 with vg).
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What is a good support to pair up with TB in lane? He can be bullied so hard by dual offlanes in pubs :|
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Try to get ur team to give u dual supports
If not something strong like sky wrath or something
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then you can tri-lane and most usually stuff/beat whatever dual lane (proper or not) they make.
even axe+1 is not scary if you kill them early, when they TP back to lane, it'll still be pushed in to your tower so they miss out on half a level if not more.
after that, you can eat them for gold and force them to bring more heroes, or just move your supports to help other lanes.
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United States2186 Posts
Yeah, just 2 heroes who will threaten to kill the offlane and then make space for you in the midgame. TB is very difficult to lose with if your team actually helps you a lot.
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So, as End just demonstrated, the Dragon Lance -> Manta build is incredibly powerful on this hero
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On May 25 2016 08:28 Erasme wrote:
Armlet is not the way to go.
aquila boots dragon lance yasha travel manta is.
damn i wonder who called it
oh its me
what a surprise
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On June 09 2016 09:23 Ver wrote:
Yeah, just 2 heroes who will threaten to kill the offlane and then make space for you in the midgame. TB is very difficult to lose with if your team actually helps you a lot.
Yeah but that's a big issue in pubs, jungle can be contested by your mates which is a big slowdown imo. Sometimes you can afford to to join some relatively early fights but if they have lots of AoE nukes, like let's say timber + other stuf you really don't want.
Concerning dragon lance vs yasha first, I have to say it's a tough call, yasha is so much better to farm but dragon lance greatly increases your chance to cast sunder when ganked and get some kills, not that the timing window is big between the completion of both items.
The other question, treads or not? Treads are so cost efficient but you quickly miss BoT. Game dependant I guess. If you upgrade to BoT, before or after manta?
You drop PMS or QB first? I know it may sound silly, but I felt more comfortable with PMS on rather than QB whereas my guts feeling tells me it's wrong.
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You drop pms first
for obvious reasons
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On June 09 2016 18:02 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 09:23 Ver wrote:
Yeah, just 2 heroes who will threaten to kill the offlane and then make space for you in the midgame. TB is very difficult to lose with if your team actually helps you a lot. Yeah but that's a big issue in pubs, jungle can be contested by your mates which is a big slowdown imo. Sometimes you can afford to to join some relatively early fights but if they have lots of AoE nukes, like let's say timber + other stuf you really don't want. Concerning dragon lance vs yasha first, I have to say it's a tough call, yasha is so much better to farm but dragon lance greatly increases your chance to cast sunder when ganked and get some kills, not that the timing window is big between the completion of both items. The other question, treads or not? Treads are so cost efficient but you quickly miss BoT. Game dependant I guess. If you upgrade to BoT, before or after manta? You drop PMS or QB first? I know it may sound silly, but I felt more comfortable with PMS on rather than QB whereas my guts feeling tells me it's wrong.
QB Is sacred. Remember to make a prayer and bid her farewell before dropping her.
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I like terrorblade, I think he still has alot of potential in the highest levels. TNC.Raven is a good example
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Is stacking butterflies actually that good?
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On March 08 2017 08:55 Birdie wrote:
Is stacking butterflies actually that good?
It was a build that zenoth (one of the top tb players early on, along with matrice) used alot then. The play style is 100% rat. Non stop illusions that can't be cleared by right clicks, not every hero having access to mkb, slowly but surely chipping away raxes while the hero is safe elsewhere.
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On March 08 2017 10:14 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2017 08:55 Birdie wrote:
Is stacking butterflies actually that good? It was a build that zenoth (one of the top tb players early on, along with matrice) used alot then. The play style is 100% rat. Non stop illusions that can't be cleared by right clicks, not every hero having access to mkb, slowly but surely chipping away raxes while the hero is safe elsewhere.
It was hilarious back then. TB was so broken you could 6 slot him with 3x butterfly at around 30 min just jungling him from lvl 1 and just watch their team melt.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
the only terrorblade i remember playing in dota 1 was the jungle 4 wraith bands build
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Umm if we're talking about dota 1, I liked the life drain skill. Was pretty fun
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how the hell is matumbaman building butterfly straight after manta, the logic i always followed was butterfly isnt good to get early because it lets ur opponents consider mkb, while sometimes in the late game if u see them commit to a big item you can just buy butterfly (stockpiling the gold) for a timing where they dont have the gold to buy it.
Plus after you get ur manta, you either wanna tank up a bit and stick on ur targets with skadi or you seriously need some defence in the form of bkb.
But sometimes he just spams butterfly and blows my mind on how hes just able to set up conditions where its just a split push game...
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^It's fairly easy to turn the game into a splitpush game with TB especially if you are a lot better than your opponents. I've multiple times taken a rax when the opposing team went 5-man mid after Rosh. Once you reach ~10k gold there aren't a lot of heroes who can handle him solo and you force the typical "loose rax before you reach mine or tp and stop pushing" situation.
Metamorphosis TB pushes tower's down in a quarter of the time an average carry needs and he's hard to chase down when he spreads illus all over the jungle.
On March 09 2017 02:36 DucK- wrote:
Umm if we're talking about dota 1, I liked the life drain skill. Was pretty fun
Yeah that shit was broken AF. Good times :D
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On March 15 2017 22:08 Shock710 wrote:
how the hell is matumbaman building butterfly straight after manta, the logic i always followed was butterfly isnt good to get early because it lets ur opponents consider mkb, while sometimes in the late game if u see them commit to a big item you can just buy butterfly (stockpiling the gold) for a timing where they dont have the gold to buy it.
Plus after you get ur manta, you either wanna tank up a bit and stick on ur targets with skadi or you seriously need some defence in the form of bkb.
But sometimes he just spams butterfly and blows my mind on how hes just able to set up conditions where its just a split push game...
No carry is going to get an mkb at that timing to counter your butterfly. Also even if the said carry has mkb, that hero alone can't defend against tb split push. Mkb is actually not a hard counter to mass butterfly tb. You need the right heroes.
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Can someone summarize when to go drums over DL and when to get Bfury? I assume the major factor is fight timing with drums being the item if you want to fight with your first item, DL when you want to be able to fight at 20 mins and bfury when you don't want to fight until you've got skadi or bkb?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/gnlouq2upixhl3f/terror.png?dl=1&token_hash=AAFaT2D6P2HI2_DkYLKyUKXnD-NSi7jDSIz6jf_NNSlS9w)
