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Bumping this because I've fallen in love with this hero recently. It's just fun to bully people early game with your crazy starting stats.
-I think Aghs is awesome. I don't think the mana cost is an issue. You're not typically going to get more than one Ignite off per fight, and your team should be Bloodlusted prior to engagement. That means you only need enough mana for your regular Fireblast. You can easily get 4 rounds of normal + unrefined Fireblasts with just Arcane Boots and Magic Stick by utilizing the burst mana after unrefined (the reduction in the multicast mana penalty on Fireblast last patch was huge for Aghs viability IMO). You can then disassemble your Arcane and build into Bloodstone late game, which is fantastic on an Aghs Ogre.
-I've had a lot of success just building Ogre tanky: going for Arcane and Urn to start and later building into Aghs and Bloodstone and picking up a Veil if my team has other potent magic damage sources. So freaking tanky with Aghs/Blood/Veil. Dagon can be picked up for funsies as well.
-My mindset with Ogre is just to be a bully, which could be my lane, helping mid, harassing junglers (just need boots), etc. I go tango salve clarity x2 + support items and just try to trade hits. A lot of times people don't buy enough regen and are easily zoned out (or underestimate Ogre's early game durability). OoV can be a very nice situational buy from the side shop for this purpose.
-Experimenting with a right-clicking Ogre when I go mid. Well not really, more just like a tanky aura carrier. Phase Boots > Drums for early gank potential, build into Vlad and Shiva. Played around with DPS items like Orchid and just not a fan. I think you got to keep Ogre tanky throughout or he loses his steam quickly. It's funny seeing Ogre chasing and whacking people to death though (Ogre has a FANTASTIC attack animation BTW).
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I've been playing ogre a lot recently (favorite hero challenge) and I have settled on this build. bracer - brown boots - wand - drums -phase - euls - aghs. I really like being fast enough to kite/catch anyone and I just love drums. I find if I rush aghs before euls I don't have the mana for many casts, but once I have euls I regen enough mana to be able to cast fireblast + unrefined indefinitely. The goal is to get one set of rax down before I finish aghs and then use that money to finish it and siege the rest, while ogre can shut down supports and help his carries lategame I still struggle there.
I normally start with circlet/gauntlets/tangos/(wards or courier) so I can finish my bracer quick. As long as I don't waste mana or I lane with someone with Ring of B I don't need mana regen but I can still get kills. I aim to secure the lane for my carry (dual lanes always) then either roam mid or smoke into the jungle if they have a jungler.
I don't get force staff or a mek because I only get money from kills and towers. I need the mana regen on euls and I am fast enough to catch/kite without force, and I run out of mana enough to carry mek.
I have never felt the need for arcane boots and I don't understand why people get them. The team will usually have at least one other person that gets them, and with drums and wand I have enough mana to get what I need done. I wait to bloodlust team mates when the time is right and I don't often use ignite unless necessary.
My skill build have settled to is fireblast - bloodlust - fireblast - ignite -max fireblast, then bloodlust, then ignite. I favor bloodlust over ignite because I find that it helps secure kills just as well for a lower mana cost, and it helps push towers and win teamfights much better.
After saying all this, I have looked at some replays and dotabuff stats and I find that this is not very close to the norm, why is that. Do people play ogre in a different way that calls for other items/skills?
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Dunno, as much as aghs is cool I rarely find myself with the farm to get it. I usually prefer to go Arcanes/Urn/Forcestaff. I get aghs after that if I get unusually high amounts of money but usually the game is mostly over at that point.
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-I don't feel like Phase + Drums is worth it unless you're going mid. You don't get it at an impactful timing if you're playing support, e.g. laning phase is over already by the time you get it.
-Similar logic with Eul's. It's a great ganking item for Ogre but laning phase is over by the time you get it. It's still a nice situational item for Ogre if you think there's going to be a lot of ganking after the laning phase rather than team fights, or if you need it for defensive purposes (i.e. Jugg ult or Lifestealer) and you don't want to get Ghost Scepter.
-I don't know why you are buying gauntlet/circlet/bracer at the start. You are already super tanky at the start and you don't need the damage. You should buy regen so you can stay out on the map. Ogre's strength is the super early game, you need to maximize your presence during this period.
-It's hard to for me to imagine a scenario where early Bloodlust would be preferable to Ignite in early game ganking.
-Mek is Mek. It's the same for any hero. If your team is trying to hit an early push timing having one on your team before the enemy gets one is critical, so if nobody else on your team is getting it you should get it. It's not a very good late item pick-up.
-Urn is fantastic on Ogre, and I almost always get it unless I'm roaming with another support who gets it. It's cheap so you get it at an impactful timing (often my first purchase after brown boots unless I need to get OoV or a magic stick), gives much needed mana regen (I usually buy the Sage Mask from side shop first), a little extra durability, the heal gives you sustainability to stay on the map and gives your team extra longevity in pushes, and remember it also significantly helps with ganks from the active.
-Force Staff is a situational buy for me as well. It's more if my team needs it or vs. certain heroes like Clock. Ogre is so tanky he doesn't really need it for his own defensive purposes as much as other supports would.
-The problem with right-click Ogre is that he falls off really fast vs. real carries and semi-carries. His strength is super early game, where his high starting stats give him a significant edge, so you need to be very aggressively ganking from the start. Even if I do get the farm mid so that I could get Phase/Drums at impactful timings, I stop there and quickly transition into team/aura items like vlad and shiva as late game Ogre you don't want to be in the thick of things and get focused and/or blown up by AoE. You're going to be hanging in the back and just tossing out your spells and team items are going to be more impactful than ganking items.
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Just remember.
"Despite being largely incapacitated by his IQ, the Ogre Magi's success in battle is attributed to pure skill."
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The number of people bitching about my 'skill' has steadily increased as I get better at multicasting.
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stop max his slow, just stop! :D bloodlust is so much better for teamfight and ganking. i actually think his w(always forget the name for some reason) should get a buff and what makes him weak 
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United States43876 Posts
Couldn't disagree more. In games with two supports you should rush soul ring and max your w, leaving either one point in your q for stuns and getting bloodlust or just maxing w then q. Ask your carry for 3 or so last hits and naked soul ring from the side shop. You have the hp regen to sustain a soul ring and the w has a long cast range and does a shitton of damage if you hit them with q and w every time your ring is off cooldown. It gives you a shitton of lane control and will often set you up for ganks with a void or something that can just rush forwards and finish them off. Furthermore your w gains AoE at 6 which allows you to grab a hard jungle camp every now and then which is pretty huge for just extra gold, especially if towers aren't falling. Q just doesn't do that for you and while it does do a shitton of damage once you're 11 there is no reason why you can't have Q at 4 by 11, maxing it at 7 has huge tradeoffs in damage output, lane control and farming catchup potential.
Item build I use is
Soul Ring
Tranqs
Euls
Shivas
with obviously wards, sentries, tps and so forth mixed in as required. Also drums if nobody else gets them. It's simply not feasible to wait for mana boots and still have any kind of presence at all, especially if the pull is warded, for impact you need that soul ring and ogre is almost uniquely capable of using it because of his ridiculous hp. Soul and tranqs have great synergy and the speed you get from tranqs, euls and blood give you crazy mobility and initiating ability.
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I'll definitely try more ignite and different items, but I have been having a decent amount of success ganking with a void and such using bloodlust. It makes towers fall and is really nice when void ults. I know you think your build is the best, but maybe try another way of playing him? I am just looking to find the best ways to play him in different lineups.
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Not a fan of Soul Ring personally. First, it's situational, i.e. other support is going to buy all the starting support items so you can rush it ASAP and you know you're going to need the mana to trade hits against certain heroes. Second, it's strictly a super early game item you rush, since it's main use is to spam in lane.
The reason why I'm not a fan is I find Ogre can already trade hits effectively in most situations early on anyway, and you likely bought more regen as well. Second, I think it's a waste to play Ogre strictly as a baby sitter/zoner. He's a very strong early game ganker, so you want to get boots ASAP and Urn is a much better ganking item than Soul Ring.
Fireblast vs Ignite, both have their pros and cons on what to max first. It's really burst vs. higher damage over time, so gauge what you need more vs the heroes you are trying to gank. Remember though higher lv fireblast really benefits from multi-cast if you pick It up at lv 6.
I think it's only in rare situations Bloodlust is going to be better for ganking than higher lvs in Fireblast or Ignite. You won't really have the mana to support 3 spells early on anyway. But yeah I could early Bloodlust working with Void.
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United States43876 Posts
Ogre needs soul ring until really late in my experience, unless you're rolling in tower gold that ability to just grab 150 extra mana is huge. Multicast at 6 is just 25% more damage which makes it still less damage than ignite, even if ignite hits just a single target which is pretty unusual. Fireblast just does less damage, multicast or not, until 11 by which point it is 4 either way. Once AoE and the chance of a multicast ignite is taken into account I can think of few situations in which fireblast is better, especially given that you can get both by 11.
You don't need to buy regen items to fuel ogre's soul, you can play him conservatively and be fine with it without tangos, secure in the knowledge that you're both nukier and tankier than the potential diving threat.
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I'm not saying Ogre doesn't need mana regen, I'm saying there are better ways to get it past the very early game. The strength of soul ring is the ability to spam in lane, but it's usefulness the later you get it diminishes as the laning phase gets closer and closer to ending. That's why if you get Soul Ring, you have to rush it ASAP, before Boots, and have your other support grab all the initial support items.
But if you're ganking, which you should be as Ogre in most scenarios, you need boots first. Then after that Urn is a much better ganking option. And you need the regen consumables early because you should be playing him aggressively from the start, roaming around and just being a presence on the map. Ogre is not a hero you should be playing conservatively, staying in one lane and just zoning their offlaner out or something.
And as I said you can't just look at the damage. Sometimes you need the burst more than the total damage over time (or the enemy heroes have a dispel that makes Ignite useless like Abaddon, Slark, LC). You just have to judge it on a game-by-game basis. But if you do max Ignite first I wouldn't grab multi-cast at lv 6, instead grabbing it after maxing Fireblast.
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United States43876 Posts
Multicast is hugely useful with ignite. Multicast is what gives ignite the AoE. I think not getting multicast at 6 can only ever be described as a mistake. Even with your fireblast just at 2 multicast is still better than a third level of it. That advice is just terrible, multicast is always going to be better than another level but with an ignite over fireblast build even more so, multicast gives ignite a 100% chance of AoE which is huge in both teamfights and for grabbing extra gold. Could not disagree more.
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I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights.
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On July 18 2014 03:13 KwarK wrote:
Multicast is hugely useful with ignite. Multicast is what gives ignite the AoE. I think not getting multicast at 6 can only ever be described as a mistake. Even with your fireblast just at 2 multicast is still better than a third level of it. That advice is just terrible, multicast is always going to be better than another level but with an ignite over fireblast build even more so, multicast gives ignite a 100% chance of AoE which is huge in both teamfights and for grabbing extra gold. Could not disagree more.
I think you're way too strict concerning ogre build and you're only looking at your own damage which is a huge mistake for a support imo. Many heroes can use maxed bloodlust very well during midgame for exemple, which is a long way to go if you maxed ignite, specially on a hero without any farming ability.
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blood lust doesnt scale nearly well enough to justify maxing over the other two spells. and you will depend purely on your teammates actually doing things.
i prefer maxing fireblast and always getting ult at lvl 6. The decreased cd and chance to multicast outweighs the manacost increase, plus why would you play a luck based hero if you dont believe in it.
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On July 18 2014 03:25 Skyro wrote:
I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights.
Personally I find that fights tend to happen when they want to happen, and usually that's pretty early in pub games. Pre-6, even.
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Ignite vs fireblast I feel is up in the air. Probably more personal preference. But BL should most definitely be maxed last. Maybe a value point some time early if you like, but no more. Always 4-4-1-1 by 10.
I definitely dont see the point of soul ring though. By the time you can normally have soul ring + brown boots the laning should be pretty much over anyway, so you wont get much or any use there. And only way you get it at a good time is by sitting in lane and chain pulling or stealing last hits from your carry, but then you're playing him wrong. Ogre is a great lvl 2-5 ganker but a mediocre lane support at best. Sitting in lane and/or chainpulling to maximize your gold/exp is something you can do on lvl 6 dependent supports (disruptor, shaman) or item dependent supports (all blink-core supports) but you're really playing it wrong if you play Ogre that way imo. Get lvl 2, then look for kills. Done right you can win your mid his lane or set back their offlaner/safelaner severly. Thats Ogres strength early game. And his weakness, because if your carry is being contested you'll have a pretty rough time helping him.
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United States43876 Posts
Maybe it's a MMR thing but I don't feel that many people I play against are going to die against a bootless 2 minute ogre. They generally have wards and play cautiously if they know I'm about. His disables aren't such long range (until his ult increases them) that you can initiate out of nowhere with them. Maybe combined with a laning disable like OD's banish to initiate but I rarely see spots where I can just run up and fireblast.
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On July 18 2014 05:09 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 03:25 Skyro wrote:
I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights. Personally I find that fights tend to happen when they want to happen, and usually that's pretty early in pub games. Pre-6, even.
When I say teamfights I mean large 8+ man fights, like when you are pushing towers, not the small skirmishes/ganks that occur in the early game.
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EPT
