EPT[Hero] Ogre Magi - Page 4
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 17 2014 08:44 govie wrote: I find ogre aghs a waste, 4200 gold can be better spend. You can buy a bkb for that goldprice, think about it. You should always go Agh eventually. The question is when. Some get it first item, I'm not a fan of that since it will hinder his normal Q/W/E usage a lot. It also means he'll likely get Agh before 16, which lessens the effect. First item should generally be Eul or Force unless you're running some kind of organized team pushing strat where you're tasked with another item (mek/pipe/necro/etc). Stop for Urn before or after Eul/Force if you want. The 2nd item can very well be Agh imo. If you went Eul I'd even say it should be Agh since it gives so much regen. If you went Force its more questionable. But either way if you dont do Agh as 2nd item for whatever reason it should pretty much always be your 3rd. Also if you think you have lacking regen for Agh, pick up a soul ring or casual void stone straight after. Both will make your regen notably better and void stone can always be turned into a sheep/eul eventually, which are both items you often will want to have anyway. | ||
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
I almost always go brown boots>soulring>Tranquil>Magic wand>Aghs on Ogre. At level 16 ogre has ridicilous 1500 raw hp and 10 armor. With this build you'll have 2k raw hp and 15 armor. Extremely tanky for a nuker+buffer hero. No one want to deal with ogre at this time. Also having a bloodlust helps you to get in and get out in teamfights. Ideal ogre play should ignite>Fireblast>unrefined fireblast>soulring/wand>fireblast>unrefined fireblast. People tend to use their soulring before casting any spells. Thats a bad habit. You should always use your both fireblasts before activating your soul ring. Soul ring should provide mana for your second fireblast. At level 16 your fireblasts deal 470 damage on average. If you manage your mana efficiently you should cast at least 4 fireblasts in a team fight which will deal 1880 damage on average (it depends your skill. More skill more damage  ) dealing 1800 damage in a very short amount of time (roughly 7-8 seconds) will be a huge blow on your opponent. You can even snipe tanky enemy carries with some skill.I really don't believe any other item will make that much difference on OM. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On October 17 2014 09:25 Skyro wrote: Why would you want to build a BKB on ogre? To club ppl to death? If you don't need or want aghs I would just be the aura carrier and buy items like Vlad and pipe to take advantage of his tankiness. because i find the a bkb even better then an aghs;) | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
On October 17 2014 15:56 govie wrote: because i find the a bkb even better then an aghs;) That's not an explanation though, you find bkb better than aghs because you find bkb better than aghs? Bkb doesnt bring you much, you're already tanky as fuck, and at the point where you should be able to afford it your right clicks aren't that relevant anymore. You being able to stand your ground with magic immunity and club people isn't really worth 4k gold. Bkb doesnt bring you any mana/mana regen either. Aghs bring you way more damage, an additional stun, more mana and you still get 400hp out of it if you're concerned about surviving fights. That said, I agree with Kreb, I like getting force staff before aghs. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2512 Posts
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FuzioNda1337
Sweden159 Posts
But most typical heroes that are used mid nowdays can not withstand him middle. Rely on your tankiness, and abuse it in your favor,play defensive until lvl 4-5. this guy is so freaking good after the change on % mana on the refined fireblast, if u have good regen u can spamm it constantly. Manapool is not important for him lategame keep that in mind manaregen is. | ||
DavoS
United States4605 Posts
On October 17 2014 20:36 FuzioNda1337 wrote: This guy is very legit middle, very few can handle him,staut+rot and getting pulled then straight bottle, if game goes well rushing aghs wont be hard, ofcourse he has some heroes he is weak against middle, But most typical heroes that are used mid nowdays can not withstand him middle. Rely on your tankiness, and abuse it in your favor,play defensive until lvl 4-5. this guy is so freaking good after the change on % mana on the refined fireblast, if u have good regen u can spamm it constantly. Manapool is not important for him lategame keep that in mind manaregen is. My buddy had this really long kick where he ran Ogre mid no matter what else the other team had. The thing is, Ogre is one of the few supports where it gets to late game and the player can think "Sweet, now it's my time to shine!" He is a strong mid, but he does the exact same thing in the mid and late game as a 4 position, it just takes 10 minutes longer for him to get there. The difference is you can have a mid hero who scales better/differently. | ||
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Aisikle
Australia30 Posts
My friend and I are often talking about what items to get on this hero and although I'm sure I'll cop some hate for this one (try to hear me out before going keyboard warrior at least), but I think Midas is pretty potent and I'll explain why. Early on, I'm sure we can all agree that Ogre tends to be more about spells and levels than a critical item timing window. While I feel it should almost never get in the way of your Arcane Boots or whatever you're utilizing to keep you sustained or strong at low levels, I think Midas kind of promotes this play. Assuming you've got levels and a bit of farm (this hero is so hard to zone out at the moment), you can get a fairly decent timed Midas without dedicating yourself to CSing much at all (say pre-15 minutes?) and run around the map, creating loads of space. Typically at the time you just have 1 point in Multicast, your ability to shut down and wreck heroes is insane. It makes sense to just blow up heroes and take towers while your hard farmer (or indeed, your esteemed supports who get nothing at the start) uses the space you've created to CS in another lane. This is where the Midas really takes effect, because you're actually getting a LOT of levels and even gold while pushing and fighting heaps! You can still get your Aghs/Force/Euls/etc. at a nice time without absorbing farm your team could use. Now again, I'm not saying this is something to do every game, but it could and should be at least considered. As for your mid-late game items, Aghs is...well you've all said why it's super strong and generally you'll want it in any game you can be a 6-slotted Ogre; this is rarely the case, though. If I'm getting the gold to justify such a large investment early, I look at the enemy team and think, "Are they relying heavily on someone in the mid game? Is it likely that I'll be able to get in range for the double Fireblast in a fight? Will a multicast or two in there render them dead or so weak that they have to run immediately?" If it ticks all these boxes, then generally it's a big yes for me. If some of that criteria is lacking, I really consider other items and needless to say, if I'm not getting gold, I tend to disregard this item completely until later. The beauty of this hero is that he's super flexible when it comes to inventory. Euls is amazing for sustain, control and great against heroes with a Dagger. Force Staff and Dagger are both wonderful initiation and escape choices. Ghost Scepter straight up counters certain heroes such as PA and transitions surprisingly nicely into Eth Blade later. Blood Stone is one of the best 3rd/4th slot items on this hero, I feel. The list goes on and on, but this is already a wall of text. Hope I sparked some ideas and may your Multicasts be plentiful. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On October 17 2014 17:19 Fleetfeet wrote: Govie you're like a zillion percent wrong. Like someone else said, it's not a matter of whether you get aghas, it's a matter of when. No stoned-as-fuck "No guys seriously think about it, BKB instead of aghas!" is gonna back your argument up. I dont like the aghs upgrade for 4200 gold. Its too expensive and i believe that 4200 gold is better spend for allmost any other item the team benefits from in a game. The bkb example was just a statement of how much i truly dont value the 4200 gold aghs on ogre. Ogre Magi probably could just aswell buy an etheral blade or even a refresher and get 2 ignites, 2 stuns, 2 bloodlusts and a bunch of mana+manaregen without depleting your whole manapool for just that 1 extra stun. I believe that the aghs covers up bad manamanagement and itemizing and the times i see ogre magis get one is when the game was allready won. Add: until ofcourse i meet ogres that rush the item and beat me with it over and over again but i dont think that will ever happen. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34486 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On October 18 2014 00:00 govie wrote: I dont like the aghs upgrade for 4200 gold. Its too expensive and i believe that 4200 gold is better spend for allmost any other item the team benefits from in a game. The bkb example was just a statement of how much i truly dont value the 4200 gold aghs on ogre. Ogre Magi probably could just aswell buy an etheral blade or even a refresher and get 2 ignites, 2 stuns, 2 bloodlusts and a bunch of mana+manaregen without depleting your whole manapool for just that 1 extra stun. I believe that the aghs covers up bad manamanagement and itemizing and the times i see ogre magis get one is when the game was allready won. Add: until ofcourse i meet ogres that rush the item and beat me with it over and over again but i dont think that will ever happen. So you would rather spend more money for a refresher orb that gives you an extra ignite/bloodlust every 3 minutes than double stuns every few seconds? If anything, Aghs rewards good mana management for players that don't use the Agh's stun too early or often and blow their entire mana pool. I don't know how you can argue that a 4200 stat stick that gives him an extra stun ability is bad. I agree that he needs Mana Boots/OoV and a mobility item or Eul's Scepter first, but Aghanim Scepter is definitely core on this hero. As for where to lane him, I agree with DavoS in that he is a pretty good mid against a lot of heroes, but you really need to snowball with that experience/gold advantage because he arrives at the same place in the late-game regardless. If going mid means you get a really fast mana boot/blink timing and can gank all over the map, that's great, but if not you probably could have had the same effect supporting or going offlane, and a better-scaling mid hero could have used that lane to leverage a better late-game. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34486 Posts
Aghs is great. | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
P.S. I think I value blink much more on this hero than the majority of the thread as well. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
So you really shouldn't overgeneralize Aghs/no Aghs or when to get it. Rushing Aghs first is absolutely viable as your first major item depending on game situation. Ogre is so tanky at the start he doesn't need mobility items until he really starts to fall behind in gold and levels compared to enemy cores, and when that occurs exactly is highly dependent on if Ogre himself is played as a core or support. For instance If their cores already all have BKBs or are super tanky so you don't get much value from the burst/stun then Aghs is likely not a smart purchase. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2512 Posts
On October 18 2014 01:23 govie wrote:but im a ginger, maybe that explains alot That explains eeeeeverything :D As for blink - I'm one of the mentioned in this thread that don't value it that highly. To break it down, heroes that get blink fit in to one of three categories: 1) The big initiators. There's a million examples, but one thing holds true : Enigma, Magnus, Axe, Centaur, Sandking... the heroes that are using blink to initiate are using it off the back of an AoE skill that becomes dramatically more valuable given blink's positioning opportunities. 2) Positioning-dependant heroes. There IS some overlap here, but Puck, Crystal Maiden, Rubick, Windranger, Sniper... these are heroes that benefit from being at a specific place at a specific time, in part for the efficiency of their skills, but in part because they're very likely not durable enough to just blink into the middle of a fight, so staying elusive and on the edges is something a blink allows them to do. 3) Solo Killers. Slark, TA, Slardar, Legion Commander. These guys have a blink because they're probably terrifying and probably going to rape you if they catch you alone, and a blink is going to help them do just that. So, in my books, Ogre doesn't really fit into any of those categories. He's not a hard initiator that finds great efficiency for his skills from a blink dagger, nor one that can always afford to leave his team 1200 units behind him to initiate. He's not super positioning dependant, as he's naturally beefy and has a movespeed modifier in his kit already, which covers his positioning needs. He's closest to a solo killer, but doesn't really have consistent solo kill potential until aghas. To be clear - Neverever in a game where I saw an Ogre Magi get Blink would I question it at all. Blink is awesome, and there are always going to be situations to get blink,,, I just don't think it's anywhere near as mandatory an item on Ogre as it is on other heroes. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
One nice thing about ogre+aghs vs BKB carries is his tankiness sort of comes into play there. With such short cooldowns he can still harass enemy supports, but if the enemy team does not focus him before their carry's BKB wears off then they're going to be in trouble (and if they do they're hitting a somewhat durable target). | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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