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On July 18 2014 05:34 KwarK wrote:
Maybe it's a MMR thing but I don't feel that many people I play against are going to die against a bootless 2 minute ogre. They generally have wards and play cautiously if they know I'm about. His disables aren't such long range (until his ult increases them) that you can initiate out of nowhere with them. Maybe combined with a laning disable like OD's banish to initiate but I rarely see spots where I can just run up and fireblast.
Which is why dewarding and smokes are critical to the success of your early ganks. It's also very hard to avoid Ogre when it's night time without wards since night vision is 800 and Fireblast is 600.
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I buy lvl 1 smoke just about any game unless theres a QoP (easy escape) or Puck (kinda easy escape) enemy mid. Most others mids are very gankable. And if its a SF/Storm/Tinker its a damn crime to not try and gank them during laning as Ogre. Smoke can be used against some offlaners too if theres an obvious ward (typically way more common as radiant) to keep track of you not moving around them.
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On July 18 2014 05:38 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 05:09 Fencar wrote:On July 18 2014 03:25 Skyro wrote:
I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights. Personally I find that fights tend to happen when they want to happen, and usually that's pretty early in pub games. Pre-6, even. When I say teamfights I mean large 8+ man fights, like when you are pushing towers, not the small skirmishes/ganks that occur in the early game.
I mean even in 3v3s or something the AoE can be very helpful as well as the multicast chance on both your spells for more stun duration/damage or additional targets for Ignite.
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Ogre trending madly lately, what's the deal? I know he has insane starting regen / armour but it's gotta be more than that.
what gives?
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On October 16 2014 07:37 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Ogre trending madly lately, what's the deal? I know he has insane starting regen / armour but it's gotta be more than that.
what gives?
rune change
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- The starting regen allows him to be an extremely effective roamer. A boots and/or OoV ogre is the closest thing to the old lvl 1 boots treant we've had. Its incredibly easy to setup kills from lvl 2 and onward against no-escape heroes who arent very tanky. The regen allows him to stay active on the map with less tangoes/salves during first 5-10min.
- He was always a very strong lategame support. All his skills are very strong and he keeps scaling all the way from lvl 11 to lvl 14 to 16. Many other support "cap out" around 7 or 10 when they've maxed two skills. And that was honestly a good thing earlier when games were faster. Bloodlust is no joke lategame and his nukes actually gets stronger at both 11 and 16. And with Aghs he becomes a very serious threat damage-wise which rivals Skywrath or magic damage cores like QoP and Puck. The recent changes to make games go on longer helps him reach that state much more often.
- Also his stat growth comes in full effect at higher levels, where he naturally gets core-lvl tankiness.
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I have no idea how people can even consider not buying aghs on ogre.
As an ogre in my opinion you just want to maximize your up-time, having said that you can't die from a poke, the early point booster will result in you having something like 500 more hp than pretty much anyone in the game, you're pretty much impossible to be burst down. After that I usually go ogre club for being impossible to kill unless I feel we have a huge advantage in which case I got staff. Once you have your aghs you can blow up pretty much anyone if you're lucky.
A big reason for ogre trending right now is the 40% 2x multicast at lvl 6, incredibly strong. If you go off lane which is really easy with the increased regen you can stay lane really easy and get lvls fast. Once you're level 6 you should have your mana boots and then you just cast fireblast as much as possible, it's almost impossible for them to stay on the lane.
Got 72% win rate with him, he was my favorite hero in HoN.
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Blacksmith was better as far as i can remember he had magic resist reduction on his dot which made him more then just a multicast machine.
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Aghanim its a must after the change to the extra fireblast, before you didnt had enough mana
Im loving getting mana boots + soul ring, great HP regen and almost infinite mana, after that blink or aghanim
I do think point booster + ogre club early on (after mana boots) its amazing if the enemy team wants to figth/roam early on
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 16 2014 09:04 njt7 wrote:
Blacksmith was better as far as i can remember he had magic resist reduction on his dot which made him more then just a multicast machine.
Blacksmith's bloodlust also increased cast speeds iirc
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Ogre is so tanky early that I've had a ton of success diving towers at lvl 2-3, you can take a LOT of hits
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I don't think Ogre Aghs is a necessity at all, I feel like it is kinda self-defeating in the sense that it allows you to always cast a fireblast but the item itself inherently gives you more mana anyway.
I like things like force staff, ghost, euls, halberd, blademail a lot more.
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Force staff is a great item and it really does depend a lot on lineups. Aghs is fantastic in that it gives you yet another stun that also can do a lot of burst and makes you even more tanky. I will say you have terrible mobility with the aghs build that can be very frustrating, but overall with the new gold mechanics I feel you should always get aghs.
The build up to aghs is fairly nice for a support, I generally go courier, obs, tangos and 2 branchs start. Get boots + oov, then soul ring, then point booster, and just finish the aghs from there. With aghs you become a support and carry destroyer (when bkb is down) and a gigantic threat with just 6k gold, yet you are so tanky that you don't just blow up instantly.
The big thing with aghs is to make sure to have wand + soul ring + arcanes, so you can continue to fireblast a couple more times after you go oom on top of unrefined
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aghs is great, never a bad pickup.
however
there's a trend in offlaning ogre now. if you offlane, make sure your team has initiation before you get your aghs. force/aghs is a lot better than straight aghs in games where you have to make things happen with offlane farm/levels.
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On October 17 2014 03:04 juracule wrote:
I don't think Ogre Aghs is a necessity at all, I feel like it is kinda self-defeating in the sense that it allows you to always cast a fireblast but the item itself inherently gives you more mana anyway.
I like things like force staff, ghost, euls, halberd, blademail a lot more.
I don't see the advantage of HH or Eul's over Aghs other than the lower cost and instant cast times. I mean that's worth something in some cases but it seems pretty fringe. Over a 9 second fight Unrefined Fireblast will provide 3s of stun on a target (more if you get multicasts) which is already out performing Eul's and HH (vs melee).
Does anyone have any sort of example of the OOV style of play? I get the point and everything, but I have a hard time trying to visualize when and how I'd actually pull it off (smacking someone around early on that is).
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I generally play ogre as a roamer, and with just lvl 2 and an oov, you provide a 1.5 second stun, a 20% 5 second slow, and a 12% melee slow that stacks with the 20%. If you are against any character that doesn't have a blink that you can get in stun range of, you can generally kill them even under tower because you are just SO tanky and SO hard to get away from
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Aghs is THE big item on Ogre. And to make the biggest use of it you need burst mana regen (Mana Boots, Soul Ring, Magic Stick/Wand) to pop when you're down to zero mana. Using them before you're out of mana is a huge mistake that I see many Ogre players make. Casting 4-5 rounds of Fireblasts before you're really down to only unrefined should not be a problem. Soul Ring and Mana Boots also build nicely into Bloodstone later in the game, but there are plenty of more important items before that.
Ogre is kinda tricky in that you're fucking awesome in long fights and really don't want to die early, but on the other hand you're so fat that it would be a waste to not tank at least some damage.
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On October 17 2014 05:42 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Aghs is THE big item on Ogre. And to make the biggest use of it you need burst mana regen (Mana Boots, Soul Ring, Magic Stick/Wand) to pop when you're down to zero mana. Using them before you're out of mana is a huge mistake that I see many Ogre players make. Casting 4-5 rounds of Fireblasts before you're really down to only unrefined should not be a problem. Soul Ring and Mana Boots also build nicely into Bloodstone later in the game, but there are plenty of more important items before that.
Ogre is kinda tricky in that you're fucking awesome in long fights and really don't want to die early, but on the other hand you're so fat that it would be a waste to not tank at least some damage.
so is it good idea to get eul + forcestaff so you can stay long enough? xD
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I find ogre aghs a waste, 4200 gold can be better spend. You can buy a bkb for that goldprice, think about it.
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Why would you want to build a BKB on ogre? To club ppl to death? If you don't need or want aghs I would just be the aura carrier and buy items like Vlad and pipe to take advantage of his tankiness.
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EPT
