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Lalalaland34486 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/3/30/Ogre_Magi_Large.png) Ogre Magi
The ordinary ogre is the creature for whom the phrase 'As dumb as a bag of rock hammers' was coined. In his natural state, an ogre is supremely incapable of doing or deciding anything. Clothed in dirt, he sometimes finds himself accidentally draped in animal skins after eating lanekill. Not an especially social creature, he is most often found affectionately consorting with the boulders or tree-stumps he has mistaken for kin (a factor that may explain the ogre's low rate of reproduction). However, once every generation or so, the ogre race is blessed with the birth of a two-headed Ogre Magi, who is immediately given the traditional name of Aggron Stonebreak, the name of the first and perhaps only wise ogre in their line's history. With two heads, Ogre Magi finds it possible to function at a level most other creatures manage with one. And while the Ogre Magi will win no debates (even with itself), it is graced with a divine quality known as Dumb Luck—a propensity for serendipitous strokes of fortune which have allowed the ogre race to flourish in spite of enemies, harsh weather, and an inability to feed itself. It's as if the Goddess of Luck, filled with pity for the sadly inept species, has taken Ogre Magi under her wing. And who could blame her? Poor things.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Ogre_Magi
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Fnatic inspired me to pick up my beloved ogre again. I played him a couple of times today without aghs septer. I had a blast! If ogre gets involved in some early action as a support, he is allready pretty leveled and can almost spellcrit the whole freaking enemyteam without many manaproblems. In my itembuilds i mostly go/went for : manaboot + wand + euls + constantly consumables. It basically feels like we win or loose before i finish the euls (really early, mostly wins ofcourse ).
I thought the aghs-septer change for ogre in 6.80 was for the better, but after my experiences today i think i was wrong. its alot of gold and in the early game after 1 usage of unrefined fireblast, you should probably go to the fountain very soon. This wastes alot of time in general and doesnt make you more efficient (less game-impact). In the late game, the mana usage for unrefined fireblast increases exponentionally because your ogre gets a bigger manapool.
I tend to think the old aghs was better then the new aghs, because i only wanted a 2/3r/4th nukespell without 60% of my manapool drained instantly in the lategame. What do you guys think about aghs septer on ogre and hanni;s choice for an early aghs septer as his first big item?
http://www.datdota.com/match.php?q=628435334
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Why do you go to fountain when mana is low? You can cast unrefined blast with 3 mana.
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Not a fan of the new scepter and not a fan of scepter as 1st item. I guess it might work if you expect fights to be over by 10sec and you wont really get a 2nd round of spells off, but an early scepter hinders your normal Q/W/E usage so much. I really think you need some kind of mana item before scepter. Bloodstone is of course ideal for that purpose but Hex or Euls have some utility rather than just be a massive regen item. Bottle also helps since the active regen helps you keep your mana in that sweet spot where unrefined doesnt empty your mana but you still manage to get off the rest of your spells.
I think for mid going bottle - Euls - scepter is a strong build if you wanna go the scepter route. Then hex/shiva/ghost/force or even dagon as needed. For support you probably have to give up the thought of going scepter unless game drags on very late.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On April 27 2014 10:38 Kreb wrote:
Not a fan of the new scepter and not a fan of scepter as 1st item. I guess it might work if you expect fights to be over by 10sec and you wont really get a 2nd round of spells off, but an early scepter hinders your normal Q/W/E usage so much. I really think you need some kind of mana item before scepter. Bloodstone is of course ideal for that purpose but Hex or Euls have some utility rather than just be a massive regen item. Bottle also helps since the active regen helps you keep your mana in that sweet spot where unrefined doesnt empty your mana but you still manage to get off the rest of your spells.
I think for mid going bottle - Euls - scepter is a strong build if you wanna go the scepter route. Then hex/shiva/ghost/force or even dagon as needed. For support you probably have to give up the thought of going scepter unless game drags on very late.
Idea is that scepter 1st item allows you to contribute to teamfights even without mana for qwe usage. Now, casting unrefined fireblast when you have more than 300 mana left is a mistake, serious one.
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On April 27 2014 17:39 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 10:38 Kreb wrote:
Not a fan of the new scepter and not a fan of scepter as 1st item. I guess it might work if you expect fights to be over by 10sec and you wont really get a 2nd round of spells off, but an early scepter hinders your normal Q/W/E usage so much. I really think you need some kind of mana item before scepter. Bloodstone is of course ideal for that purpose but Hex or Euls have some utility rather than just be a massive regen item. Bottle also helps since the active regen helps you keep your mana in that sweet spot where unrefined doesnt empty your mana but you still manage to get off the rest of your spells.
I think for mid going bottle - Euls - scepter is a strong build if you wanna go the scepter route. Then hex/shiva/ghost/force or even dagon as needed. For support you probably have to give up the thought of going scepter unless game drags on very late. Idea is that scepter 1st item allows you to contribute to teamfights even without mana for qwe usage. Now, casting unrefined fireblast when you have more than 300 mana left is a mistake, serious one.
Agreed if your manapool is low, the aghs helps out for you to contrubute with 1 extra casinostun in a teamfight.
But in any other situation its debatable and if you play ogre efficiently i think. I dont have many manaproblems most of the time 20+ minutes in. The question is if that 1 last unrefined fireblast in that teamfight, is even needed or if you could achieve the same or maybe even more with others items.
The whole timing around aghs on ogre feels wasted i think. BKB carries will allways have that bkb sooner then i will farm up that aghs septer. When bkb's arrive my ogre without utility items will fall off pretty hard i think. Thats why i like to win pre 20 minutes and i find sheep/shiva/euls/forcestaff/linkens more usefull on an ogre with lategame in mind. I might be wrong ofcourse so please convince me otherwise.
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On April 27 2014 21:55 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 17:39 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 27 2014 10:38 Kreb wrote:
Not a fan of the new scepter and not a fan of scepter as 1st item. I guess it might work if you expect fights to be over by 10sec and you wont really get a 2nd round of spells off, but an early scepter hinders your normal Q/W/E usage so much. I really think you need some kind of mana item before scepter. Bloodstone is of course ideal for that purpose but Hex or Euls have some utility rather than just be a massive regen item. Bottle also helps since the active regen helps you keep your mana in that sweet spot where unrefined doesnt empty your mana but you still manage to get off the rest of your spells.
I think for mid going bottle - Euls - scepter is a strong build if you wanna go the scepter route. Then hex/shiva/ghost/force or even dagon as needed. For support you probably have to give up the thought of going scepter unless game drags on very late. Idea is that scepter 1st item allows you to contribute to teamfights even without mana for qwe usage. Now, casting unrefined fireblast when you have more than 300 mana left is a mistake, serious one. Agreed if your manapool is low, the aghs helps out for you to contrubute with 1 extra casinostun in a teamfight. But in any other situation its debatable and if you play ogre efficiently i think. I dont have many manaproblems most of the time 20+ minutes in. The question is if that 1 last unrefined fireblast in that teamfight, is even needed or if you could achieve the same or maybe even more with others items. The whole timing around aghs on ogre feels wasted i think. BKB carries will allways have that bkb sooner then i will farm up that aghs septer. When bkb's arrive my ogre without utility items will fall off pretty hard i think. Thats why i like to win pre 20 minutes and i find sheep/shiva/euls/forcestaff/linkens more usefull on an ogre with lategame in mind. I might be wrong ofcourse so please convince me otherwise.
I'm not sure where I stand on the aghs Ogre. I think I like it. Anyway, I'd like to point out that comparing your aghs timing to a bkb timing on a bkb carry is certainly usefull information and it DOES devalue the aghs Ogre, but being able to instantly drop 2 both spells on a key support should not be underrated. And the timing for this being effective is fairly late game.
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On April 27 2014 23:25 PinkEmu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 21:55 govie wrote:On April 27 2014 17:39 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 27 2014 10:38 Kreb wrote:
Not a fan of the new scepter and not a fan of scepter as 1st item. I guess it might work if you expect fights to be over by 10sec and you wont really get a 2nd round of spells off, but an early scepter hinders your normal Q/W/E usage so much. I really think you need some kind of mana item before scepter. Bloodstone is of course ideal for that purpose but Hex or Euls have some utility rather than just be a massive regen item. Bottle also helps since the active regen helps you keep your mana in that sweet spot where unrefined doesnt empty your mana but you still manage to get off the rest of your spells.
I think for mid going bottle - Euls - scepter is a strong build if you wanna go the scepter route. Then hex/shiva/ghost/force or even dagon as needed. For support you probably have to give up the thought of going scepter unless game drags on very late. Idea is that scepter 1st item allows you to contribute to teamfights even without mana for qwe usage. Now, casting unrefined fireblast when you have more than 300 mana left is a mistake, serious one. Agreed if your manapool is low, the aghs helps out for you to contrubute with 1 extra casinostun in a teamfight. But in any other situation its debatable and if you play ogre efficiently i think. I dont have many manaproblems most of the time 20+ minutes in. The question is if that 1 last unrefined fireblast in that teamfight, is even needed or if you could achieve the same or maybe even more with others items. The whole timing around aghs on ogre feels wasted i think. BKB carries will allways have that bkb sooner then i will farm up that aghs septer. When bkb's arrive my ogre without utility items will fall off pretty hard i think. Thats why i like to win pre 20 minutes and i find sheep/shiva/euls/forcestaff/linkens more usefull on an ogre with lategame in mind. I might be wrong ofcourse so please convince me otherwise. I'm not sure where I stand on the aghs Ogre. I think I like it. Anyway, I'd like to point out that comparing your aghs timing to a bkb timing on a bkb carry is certainly usefull information and it DOES devalue the aghs Ogre, but being able to instantly drop 2 both spells on a key support should not be underrated. And the timing for this being effective is fairly late game.
Well, the aghs septer does give you solokill potential no matter who it is. Although you can question if a ogre should roam solo in that stage of the game, i think not.
E: i think the aghs septer should buff E-skill somehow and not give an extra fireblast for high manacost. It would give ogre so much more lategame potential and pick/ban ability.
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i really like ogre and wish more teams would use him right now. he's an excellent roamer if paired with someone. he's really tanky at lv 1 and can actually go pretty deep to get kills.
bloodlust is amazing late game, potentially game-winning.
aghs or not i think he is very useful and maybe just underused.
if you draft a tri core and run the roaming supports, ogre/lina or something similar, you can do a lot of work.
i always think of him similar to support lich. pretty comfy in the 5 position with a buff that scales very well to late game.
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this lore is fucking amazing
also aghs ogre is the best because you should only be casting unrefined when you dont have mana for anything else or its for a really important kill, having both of those options is really nice (esp since 4x is like almost 1k magic damage and you can get 2 chances on an important target)
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My advice would be, always build soul ring of ogre first. Has has high default health regeneration, very high str gain.
If you have mana boot and soul ring you can sustain q-w-d combo for a long time.
But my personal build is soul - green boot- mex - aghs.
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On May 04 2014 20:26 Mutineer wrote:
My advice would be, always build soul ring of ogre first. Has has high default health regeneration, very high str gain.
If you have mana boot and soul ring you can sustain q-w-d combo for a long time.
But my personal build is soul - green boot- mex - aghs.
What's your starting itembuild? Do you buy a Ring of Protection in the start and then go Basi -> disassemble into Soul Ring, -> Tranquil Boots?
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no i start with tangos, recipie of Soul ring and may be clarity.
That takin in account buying currier and wards.
I am finishing ring BEFOR boots
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Remember to land your skillshots and you'll do fine.
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On May 05 2014 10:06 aeroblaster wrote:
Remember to land your skillshots and you'll do fine.
Yea. That's the key to this hero. To give context, it is many times more important than landing hooks/arrow/sunstrikes/shackleshots
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I don't even know which thread that comment is intended for...
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On May 05 2014 14:34 GtC wrote:
I don't even know which thread that comment is intended for...
Ogre obviously. Hexor should make a 'luck is no excuse' featuring all ogre scenes.
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i like boots+coerier first for a lanekill at lvl2. Ignite slow+naked boots at level 2 grant you that possibility, those few rightclicks matter alot.
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OoV level 1 is incredibly fun... inspired by SingSing. Just run at people and club them. It really hurts.
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On May 06 2014 03:32 ZerONine09 wrote:
OoV level 1 is incredibly fun... inspired by SingSing. Just run at people and club them. It really hurts.
Also a very ogre thing to do.
Edit: It's also completely logical because boots require you to run which is not one bit of fun while OoV makes them stand still for more hitting which is fun.
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Bumping this because I've fallen in love with this hero recently. It's just fun to bully people early game with your crazy starting stats.
-I think Aghs is awesome. I don't think the mana cost is an issue. You're not typically going to get more than one Ignite off per fight, and your team should be Bloodlusted prior to engagement. That means you only need enough mana for your regular Fireblast. You can easily get 4 rounds of normal + unrefined Fireblasts with just Arcane Boots and Magic Stick by utilizing the burst mana after unrefined (the reduction in the multicast mana penalty on Fireblast last patch was huge for Aghs viability IMO). You can then disassemble your Arcane and build into Bloodstone late game, which is fantastic on an Aghs Ogre.
-I've had a lot of success just building Ogre tanky: going for Arcane and Urn to start and later building into Aghs and Bloodstone and picking up a Veil if my team has other potent magic damage sources. So freaking tanky with Aghs/Blood/Veil. Dagon can be picked up for funsies as well.
-My mindset with Ogre is just to be a bully, which could be my lane, helping mid, harassing junglers (just need boots), etc. I go tango salve clarity x2 + support items and just try to trade hits. A lot of times people don't buy enough regen and are easily zoned out (or underestimate Ogre's early game durability). OoV can be a very nice situational buy from the side shop for this purpose.
-Experimenting with a right-clicking Ogre when I go mid. Well not really, more just like a tanky aura carrier. Phase Boots > Drums for early gank potential, build into Vlad and Shiva. Played around with DPS items like Orchid and just not a fan. I think you got to keep Ogre tanky throughout or he loses his steam quickly. It's funny seeing Ogre chasing and whacking people to death though (Ogre has a FANTASTIC attack animation BTW).
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I've been playing ogre a lot recently (favorite hero challenge) and I have settled on this build. bracer - brown boots - wand - drums -phase - euls - aghs. I really like being fast enough to kite/catch anyone and I just love drums. I find if I rush aghs before euls I don't have the mana for many casts, but once I have euls I regen enough mana to be able to cast fireblast + unrefined indefinitely. The goal is to get one set of rax down before I finish aghs and then use that money to finish it and siege the rest, while ogre can shut down supports and help his carries lategame I still struggle there.
I normally start with circlet/gauntlets/tangos/(wards or courier) so I can finish my bracer quick. As long as I don't waste mana or I lane with someone with Ring of B I don't need mana regen but I can still get kills. I aim to secure the lane for my carry (dual lanes always) then either roam mid or smoke into the jungle if they have a jungler.
I don't get force staff or a mek because I only get money from kills and towers. I need the mana regen on euls and I am fast enough to catch/kite without force, and I run out of mana enough to carry mek.
I have never felt the need for arcane boots and I don't understand why people get them. The team will usually have at least one other person that gets them, and with drums and wand I have enough mana to get what I need done. I wait to bloodlust team mates when the time is right and I don't often use ignite unless necessary.
My skill build have settled to is fireblast - bloodlust - fireblast - ignite -max fireblast, then bloodlust, then ignite. I favor bloodlust over ignite because I find that it helps secure kills just as well for a lower mana cost, and it helps push towers and win teamfights much better.
After saying all this, I have looked at some replays and dotabuff stats and I find that this is not very close to the norm, why is that. Do people play ogre in a different way that calls for other items/skills?
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Dunno, as much as aghs is cool I rarely find myself with the farm to get it. I usually prefer to go Arcanes/Urn/Forcestaff. I get aghs after that if I get unusually high amounts of money but usually the game is mostly over at that point.
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-I don't feel like Phase + Drums is worth it unless you're going mid. You don't get it at an impactful timing if you're playing support, e.g. laning phase is over already by the time you get it.
-Similar logic with Eul's. It's a great ganking item for Ogre but laning phase is over by the time you get it. It's still a nice situational item for Ogre if you think there's going to be a lot of ganking after the laning phase rather than team fights, or if you need it for defensive purposes (i.e. Jugg ult or Lifestealer) and you don't want to get Ghost Scepter.
-I don't know why you are buying gauntlet/circlet/bracer at the start. You are already super tanky at the start and you don't need the damage. You should buy regen so you can stay out on the map. Ogre's strength is the super early game, you need to maximize your presence during this period.
-It's hard to for me to imagine a scenario where early Bloodlust would be preferable to Ignite in early game ganking.
-Mek is Mek. It's the same for any hero. If your team is trying to hit an early push timing having one on your team before the enemy gets one is critical, so if nobody else on your team is getting it you should get it. It's not a very good late item pick-up.
-Urn is fantastic on Ogre, and I almost always get it unless I'm roaming with another support who gets it. It's cheap so you get it at an impactful timing (often my first purchase after brown boots unless I need to get OoV or a magic stick), gives much needed mana regen (I usually buy the Sage Mask from side shop first), a little extra durability, the heal gives you sustainability to stay on the map and gives your team extra longevity in pushes, and remember it also significantly helps with ganks from the active.
-Force Staff is a situational buy for me as well. It's more if my team needs it or vs. certain heroes like Clock. Ogre is so tanky he doesn't really need it for his own defensive purposes as much as other supports would.
-The problem with right-click Ogre is that he falls off really fast vs. real carries and semi-carries. His strength is super early game, where his high starting stats give him a significant edge, so you need to be very aggressively ganking from the start. Even if I do get the farm mid so that I could get Phase/Drums at impactful timings, I stop there and quickly transition into team/aura items like vlad and shiva as late game Ogre you don't want to be in the thick of things and get focused and/or blown up by AoE. You're going to be hanging in the back and just tossing out your spells and team items are going to be more impactful than ganking items.
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Just remember.
"Despite being largely incapacitated by his IQ, the Ogre Magi's success in battle is attributed to pure skill."
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The number of people bitching about my 'skill' has steadily increased as I get better at multicasting.
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stop max his slow, just stop! :D bloodlust is so much better for teamfight and ganking. i actually think his w(always forget the name for some reason) should get a buff and what makes him weak
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United States42217 Posts
Couldn't disagree more. In games with two supports you should rush soul ring and max your w, leaving either one point in your q for stuns and getting bloodlust or just maxing w then q. Ask your carry for 3 or so last hits and naked soul ring from the side shop. You have the hp regen to sustain a soul ring and the w has a long cast range and does a shitton of damage if you hit them with q and w every time your ring is off cooldown. It gives you a shitton of lane control and will often set you up for ganks with a void or something that can just rush forwards and finish them off. Furthermore your w gains AoE at 6 which allows you to grab a hard jungle camp every now and then which is pretty huge for just extra gold, especially if towers aren't falling. Q just doesn't do that for you and while it does do a shitton of damage once you're 11 there is no reason why you can't have Q at 4 by 11, maxing it at 7 has huge tradeoffs in damage output, lane control and farming catchup potential.
Item build I use is
Soul Ring
Tranqs
Euls
Shivas
with obviously wards, sentries, tps and so forth mixed in as required. Also drums if nobody else gets them. It's simply not feasible to wait for mana boots and still have any kind of presence at all, especially if the pull is warded, for impact you need that soul ring and ogre is almost uniquely capable of using it because of his ridiculous hp. Soul and tranqs have great synergy and the speed you get from tranqs, euls and blood give you crazy mobility and initiating ability.
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I'll definitely try more ignite and different items, but I have been having a decent amount of success ganking with a void and such using bloodlust. It makes towers fall and is really nice when void ults. I know you think your build is the best, but maybe try another way of playing him? I am just looking to find the best ways to play him in different lineups.
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Not a fan of Soul Ring personally. First, it's situational, i.e. other support is going to buy all the starting support items so you can rush it ASAP and you know you're going to need the mana to trade hits against certain heroes. Second, it's strictly a super early game item you rush, since it's main use is to spam in lane.
The reason why I'm not a fan is I find Ogre can already trade hits effectively in most situations early on anyway, and you likely bought more regen as well. Second, I think it's a waste to play Ogre strictly as a baby sitter/zoner. He's a very strong early game ganker, so you want to get boots ASAP and Urn is a much better ganking item than Soul Ring.
Fireblast vs Ignite, both have their pros and cons on what to max first. It's really burst vs. higher damage over time, so gauge what you need more vs the heroes you are trying to gank. Remember though higher lv fireblast really benefits from multi-cast if you pick It up at lv 6.
I think it's only in rare situations Bloodlust is going to be better for ganking than higher lvs in Fireblast or Ignite. You won't really have the mana to support 3 spells early on anyway. But yeah I could early Bloodlust working with Void.
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United States42217 Posts
Ogre needs soul ring until really late in my experience, unless you're rolling in tower gold that ability to just grab 150 extra mana is huge. Multicast at 6 is just 25% more damage which makes it still less damage than ignite, even if ignite hits just a single target which is pretty unusual. Fireblast just does less damage, multicast or not, until 11 by which point it is 4 either way. Once AoE and the chance of a multicast ignite is taken into account I can think of few situations in which fireblast is better, especially given that you can get both by 11.
You don't need to buy regen items to fuel ogre's soul, you can play him conservatively and be fine with it without tangos, secure in the knowledge that you're both nukier and tankier than the potential diving threat.
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I'm not saying Ogre doesn't need mana regen, I'm saying there are better ways to get it past the very early game. The strength of soul ring is the ability to spam in lane, but it's usefulness the later you get it diminishes as the laning phase gets closer and closer to ending. That's why if you get Soul Ring, you have to rush it ASAP, before Boots, and have your other support grab all the initial support items.
But if you're ganking, which you should be as Ogre in most scenarios, you need boots first. Then after that Urn is a much better ganking option. And you need the regen consumables early because you should be playing him aggressively from the start, roaming around and just being a presence on the map. Ogre is not a hero you should be playing conservatively, staying in one lane and just zoning their offlaner out or something.
And as I said you can't just look at the damage. Sometimes you need the burst more than the total damage over time (or the enemy heroes have a dispel that makes Ignite useless like Abaddon, Slark, LC). You just have to judge it on a game-by-game basis. But if you do max Ignite first I wouldn't grab multi-cast at lv 6, instead grabbing it after maxing Fireblast.
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United States42217 Posts
Multicast is hugely useful with ignite. Multicast is what gives ignite the AoE. I think not getting multicast at 6 can only ever be described as a mistake. Even with your fireblast just at 2 multicast is still better than a third level of it. That advice is just terrible, multicast is always going to be better than another level but with an ignite over fireblast build even more so, multicast gives ignite a 100% chance of AoE which is huge in both teamfights and for grabbing extra gold. Could not disagree more.
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I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights.
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On July 18 2014 03:13 KwarK wrote:
Multicast is hugely useful with ignite. Multicast is what gives ignite the AoE. I think not getting multicast at 6 can only ever be described as a mistake. Even with your fireblast just at 2 multicast is still better than a third level of it. That advice is just terrible, multicast is always going to be better than another level but with an ignite over fireblast build even more so, multicast gives ignite a 100% chance of AoE which is huge in both teamfights and for grabbing extra gold. Could not disagree more.
I think you're way too strict concerning ogre build and you're only looking at your own damage which is a huge mistake for a support imo. Many heroes can use maxed bloodlust very well during midgame for exemple, which is a long way to go if you maxed ignite, specially on a hero without any farming ability.
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blood lust doesnt scale nearly well enough to justify maxing over the other two spells. and you will depend purely on your teammates actually doing things.
i prefer maxing fireblast and always getting ult at lvl 6. The decreased cd and chance to multicast outweighs the manacost increase, plus why would you play a luck based hero if you dont believe in it.
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On July 18 2014 03:25 Skyro wrote:
I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights.
Personally I find that fights tend to happen when they want to happen, and usually that's pretty early in pub games. Pre-6, even.
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Ignite vs fireblast I feel is up in the air. Probably more personal preference. But BL should most definitely be maxed last. Maybe a value point some time early if you like, but no more. Always 4-4-1-1 by 10.
I definitely dont see the point of soul ring though. By the time you can normally have soul ring + brown boots the laning should be pretty much over anyway, so you wont get much or any use there. And only way you get it at a good time is by sitting in lane and chain pulling or stealing last hits from your carry, but then you're playing him wrong. Ogre is a great lvl 2-5 ganker but a mediocre lane support at best. Sitting in lane and/or chainpulling to maximize your gold/exp is something you can do on lvl 6 dependent supports (disruptor, shaman) or item dependent supports (all blink-core supports) but you're really playing it wrong if you play Ogre that way imo. Get lvl 2, then look for kills. Done right you can win your mid his lane or set back their offlaner/safelaner severly. Thats Ogres strength early game. And his weakness, because if your carry is being contested you'll have a pretty rough time helping him.
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United States42217 Posts
Maybe it's a MMR thing but I don't feel that many people I play against are going to die against a bootless 2 minute ogre. They generally have wards and play cautiously if they know I'm about. His disables aren't such long range (until his ult increases them) that you can initiate out of nowhere with them. Maybe combined with a laning disable like OD's banish to initiate but I rarely see spots where I can just run up and fireblast.
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On July 18 2014 05:09 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 03:25 Skyro wrote:
I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights. Personally I find that fights tend to happen when they want to happen, and usually that's pretty early in pub games. Pre-6, even.
When I say teamfights I mean large 8+ man fights, like when you are pushing towers, not the small skirmishes/ganks that occur in the early game.
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On July 18 2014 05:34 KwarK wrote:
Maybe it's a MMR thing but I don't feel that many people I play against are going to die against a bootless 2 minute ogre. They generally have wards and play cautiously if they know I'm about. His disables aren't such long range (until his ult increases them) that you can initiate out of nowhere with them. Maybe combined with a laning disable like OD's banish to initiate but I rarely see spots where I can just run up and fireblast.
Which is why dewarding and smokes are critical to the success of your early ganks. It's also very hard to avoid Ogre when it's night time without wards since night vision is 800 and Fireblast is 600.
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I buy lvl 1 smoke just about any game unless theres a QoP (easy escape) or Puck (kinda easy escape) enemy mid. Most others mids are very gankable. And if its a SF/Storm/Tinker its a damn crime to not try and gank them during laning as Ogre. Smoke can be used against some offlaners too if theres an obvious ward (typically way more common as radiant) to keep track of you not moving around them.
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On July 18 2014 05:38 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 05:09 Fencar wrote:On July 18 2014 03:25 Skyro wrote:
I don't think you're going to find many games where teamfights start happening at lv 6, and the tiny 150 radius AoE is useless in ganks. Heroes would have to be butthugging each other to get hit by that AoE. It's the multi-casted proc of Ignite that may be useful in teamfights. And you don't need the extra range in ganks either as you should be opening with Fireblast.
And lv3 fireblast does more avg damage at less mana cost than lv2 fireblast + lv1 multi-cast.
Another consideration between Fireblast/Ignite/Multi-Cast is the Fireblast CD reduction. There will be situations where the CD reduction will allow you to squeeze in that extra Fireblast in ganks/early skirmishes can have a big effect on the outcome of these early fights. Personally I find that fights tend to happen when they want to happen, and usually that's pretty early in pub games. Pre-6, even. When I say teamfights I mean large 8+ man fights, like when you are pushing towers, not the small skirmishes/ganks that occur in the early game.
I mean even in 3v3s or something the AoE can be very helpful as well as the multicast chance on both your spells for more stun duration/damage or additional targets for Ignite.
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Ogre trending madly lately, what's the deal? I know he has insane starting regen / armour but it's gotta be more than that.
what gives?
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On October 16 2014 07:37 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Ogre trending madly lately, what's the deal? I know he has insane starting regen / armour but it's gotta be more than that.
what gives?
rune change
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- The starting regen allows him to be an extremely effective roamer. A boots and/or OoV ogre is the closest thing to the old lvl 1 boots treant we've had. Its incredibly easy to setup kills from lvl 2 and onward against no-escape heroes who arent very tanky. The regen allows him to stay active on the map with less tangoes/salves during first 5-10min.
- He was always a very strong lategame support. All his skills are very strong and he keeps scaling all the way from lvl 11 to lvl 14 to 16. Many other support "cap out" around 7 or 10 when they've maxed two skills. And that was honestly a good thing earlier when games were faster. Bloodlust is no joke lategame and his nukes actually gets stronger at both 11 and 16. And with Aghs he becomes a very serious threat damage-wise which rivals Skywrath or magic damage cores like QoP and Puck. The recent changes to make games go on longer helps him reach that state much more often.
- Also his stat growth comes in full effect at higher levels, where he naturally gets core-lvl tankiness.
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I have no idea how people can even consider not buying aghs on ogre.
As an ogre in my opinion you just want to maximize your up-time, having said that you can't die from a poke, the early point booster will result in you having something like 500 more hp than pretty much anyone in the game, you're pretty much impossible to be burst down. After that I usually go ogre club for being impossible to kill unless I feel we have a huge advantage in which case I got staff. Once you have your aghs you can blow up pretty much anyone if you're lucky.
A big reason for ogre trending right now is the 40% 2x multicast at lvl 6, incredibly strong. If you go off lane which is really easy with the increased regen you can stay lane really easy and get lvls fast. Once you're level 6 you should have your mana boots and then you just cast fireblast as much as possible, it's almost impossible for them to stay on the lane.
Got 72% win rate with him, he was my favorite hero in HoN.
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Blacksmith was better as far as i can remember he had magic resist reduction on his dot which made him more then just a multicast machine.
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Aghanim its a must after the change to the extra fireblast, before you didnt had enough mana
Im loving getting mana boots + soul ring, great HP regen and almost infinite mana, after that blink or aghanim
I do think point booster + ogre club early on (after mana boots) its amazing if the enemy team wants to figth/roam early on
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 16 2014 09:04 njt7 wrote:
Blacksmith was better as far as i can remember he had magic resist reduction on his dot which made him more then just a multicast machine.
Blacksmith's bloodlust also increased cast speeds iirc
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Ogre is so tanky early that I've had a ton of success diving towers at lvl 2-3, you can take a LOT of hits
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I don't think Ogre Aghs is a necessity at all, I feel like it is kinda self-defeating in the sense that it allows you to always cast a fireblast but the item itself inherently gives you more mana anyway.
I like things like force staff, ghost, euls, halberd, blademail a lot more.
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Force staff is a great item and it really does depend a lot on lineups. Aghs is fantastic in that it gives you yet another stun that also can do a lot of burst and makes you even more tanky. I will say you have terrible mobility with the aghs build that can be very frustrating, but overall with the new gold mechanics I feel you should always get aghs.
The build up to aghs is fairly nice for a support, I generally go courier, obs, tangos and 2 branchs start. Get boots + oov, then soul ring, then point booster, and just finish the aghs from there. With aghs you become a support and carry destroyer (when bkb is down) and a gigantic threat with just 6k gold, yet you are so tanky that you don't just blow up instantly.
The big thing with aghs is to make sure to have wand + soul ring + arcanes, so you can continue to fireblast a couple more times after you go oom on top of unrefined
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aghs is great, never a bad pickup.
however
there's a trend in offlaning ogre now. if you offlane, make sure your team has initiation before you get your aghs. force/aghs is a lot better than straight aghs in games where you have to make things happen with offlane farm/levels.
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On October 17 2014 03:04 juracule wrote:
I don't think Ogre Aghs is a necessity at all, I feel like it is kinda self-defeating in the sense that it allows you to always cast a fireblast but the item itself inherently gives you more mana anyway.
I like things like force staff, ghost, euls, halberd, blademail a lot more.
I don't see the advantage of HH or Eul's over Aghs other than the lower cost and instant cast times. I mean that's worth something in some cases but it seems pretty fringe. Over a 9 second fight Unrefined Fireblast will provide 3s of stun on a target (more if you get multicasts) which is already out performing Eul's and HH (vs melee).
Does anyone have any sort of example of the OOV style of play? I get the point and everything, but I have a hard time trying to visualize when and how I'd actually pull it off (smacking someone around early on that is).
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I generally play ogre as a roamer, and with just lvl 2 and an oov, you provide a 1.5 second stun, a 20% 5 second slow, and a 12% melee slow that stacks with the 20%. If you are against any character that doesn't have a blink that you can get in stun range of, you can generally kill them even under tower because you are just SO tanky and SO hard to get away from
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Aghs is THE big item on Ogre. And to make the biggest use of it you need burst mana regen (Mana Boots, Soul Ring, Magic Stick/Wand) to pop when you're down to zero mana. Using them before you're out of mana is a huge mistake that I see many Ogre players make. Casting 4-5 rounds of Fireblasts before you're really down to only unrefined should not be a problem. Soul Ring and Mana Boots also build nicely into Bloodstone later in the game, but there are plenty of more important items before that.
Ogre is kinda tricky in that you're fucking awesome in long fights and really don't want to die early, but on the other hand you're so fat that it would be a waste to not tank at least some damage.
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On October 17 2014 05:42 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Aghs is THE big item on Ogre. And to make the biggest use of it you need burst mana regen (Mana Boots, Soul Ring, Magic Stick/Wand) to pop when you're down to zero mana. Using them before you're out of mana is a huge mistake that I see many Ogre players make. Casting 4-5 rounds of Fireblasts before you're really down to only unrefined should not be a problem. Soul Ring and Mana Boots also build nicely into Bloodstone later in the game, but there are plenty of more important items before that.
Ogre is kinda tricky in that you're fucking awesome in long fights and really don't want to die early, but on the other hand you're so fat that it would be a waste to not tank at least some damage.
so is it good idea to get eul + forcestaff so you can stay long enough? xD
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I find ogre aghs a waste, 4200 gold can be better spend. You can buy a bkb for that goldprice, think about it.
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Why would you want to build a BKB on ogre? To club ppl to death? If you don't need or want aghs I would just be the aura carrier and buy items like Vlad and pipe to take advantage of his tankiness.
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I used to always go urn, tranquils (occasionally dif boot depending on game) into mobility item every game. Played a bunch recently where I try the arcanes into aghs, soul ring. etc. Yeah you do more damage, but as people are saying it is a HUGE investment. Arcanes+aghs+sr is like urn+tranq+blink+force. I really don't know that the damage is worth everything else you give up. The best part about it is the stats, those are good, but really not sure on this he has pretty good stat gain anyways, and with more mobility you die less and have more xp.
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On October 17 2014 08:44 govie wrote:
I find ogre aghs a waste, 4200 gold can be better spend. You can buy a bkb for that goldprice, think about it.
You should always go Agh eventually. The question is when. Some get it first item, I'm not a fan of that since it will hinder his normal Q/W/E usage a lot. It also means he'll likely get Agh before 16, which lessens the effect. First item should generally be Eul or Force unless you're running some kind of organized team pushing strat where you're tasked with another item (mek/pipe/necro/etc). Stop for Urn before or after Eul/Force if you want. The 2nd item can very well be Agh imo. If you went Eul I'd even say it should be Agh since it gives so much regen. If you went Force its more questionable. But either way if you dont do Agh as 2nd item for whatever reason it should pretty much always be your 3rd.
Also if you think you have lacking regen for Agh, pick up a soul ring or casual void stone straight after. Both will make your regen notably better and void stone can always be turned into a sheep/eul eventually, which are both items you often will want to have anyway.
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Aghs on ogre is a must while eul is a late game choice.(I prefer force staff instead of eul)
I almost always go brown boots>soulring>Tranquil>Magic wand>Aghs on Ogre. At level 16 ogre has ridicilous 1500 raw hp and 10 armor. With this build you'll have 2k raw hp and 15 armor. Extremely tanky for a nuker+buffer hero. No one want to deal with ogre at this time. Also having a bloodlust helps you to get in and get out in teamfights.
Ideal ogre play should ignite>Fireblast>unrefined fireblast>soulring/wand>fireblast>unrefined fireblast. People tend to use their soulring before casting any spells. Thats a bad habit. You should always use your both fireblasts before activating your soul ring. Soul ring should provide mana for your second fireblast.
At level 16 your fireblasts deal 470 damage on average. If you manage your mana efficiently you should cast at least 4 fireblasts in a team fight which will deal 1880 damage on average (it depends your skill. More skill more damage ) dealing 1800 damage in a very short amount of time (roughly 7-8 seconds) will be a huge blow on your opponent. You can even snipe tanky enemy carries with some skill.
I really don't believe any other item will make that much difference on OM.
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On October 17 2014 09:25 Skyro wrote:
Why would you want to build a BKB on ogre? To club ppl to death? If you don't need or want aghs I would just be the aura carrier and buy items like Vlad and pipe to take advantage of his tankiness.
because i find the a bkb even better then an aghs;)
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On October 17 2014 15:56 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 09:25 Skyro wrote:
Why would you want to build a BKB on ogre? To club ppl to death? If you don't need or want aghs I would just be the aura carrier and buy items like Vlad and pipe to take advantage of his tankiness. because i find the a bkb even better then an aghs;)
That's not an explanation though, you find bkb better than aghs because you find bkb better than aghs?
Bkb doesnt bring you much, you're already tanky as fuck, and at the point where you should be able to afford it your right clicks aren't that relevant anymore. You being able to stand your ground with magic immunity and club people isn't really worth 4k gold. Bkb doesnt bring you any mana/mana regen either.
Aghs bring you way more damage, an additional stun, more mana and you still get 400hp out of it if you're concerned about surviving fights.
That said, I agree with Kreb, I like getting force staff before aghs.
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Govie you're like a zillion percent wrong. Like someone else said, it's not a matter of whether you get aghas, it's a matter of when. No stoned-as-fuck "No guys seriously think about it, BKB instead of aghas!" is gonna back your argument up.
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This guy is very legit middle, very few can handle him,staut+rot and getting pulled then straight bottle, if game goes well rushing aghs wont be hard, ofcourse he has some heroes he is weak against middle,
But most typical heroes that are used mid nowdays can not withstand him middle.
Rely on your tankiness, and abuse it in your favor,play defensive until lvl 4-5.
this guy is so freaking good after the change on % mana on the refined fireblast, if u have good regen u can spamm it constantly.
Manapool is not important for him lategame keep that in mind manaregen is.
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On October 17 2014 20:36 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
This guy is very legit middle, very few can handle him,staut+rot and getting pulled then straight bottle, if game goes well rushing aghs wont be hard, ofcourse he has some heroes he is weak against middle,
But most typical heroes that are used mid nowdays can not withstand him middle.
Rely on your tankiness, and abuse it in your favor,play defensive until lvl 4-5.
this guy is so freaking good after the change on % mana on the refined fireblast, if u have good regen u can spamm it constantly.
Manapool is not important for him lategame keep that in mind manaregen is.
My buddy had this really long kick where he ran Ogre mid no matter what else the other team had. The thing is, Ogre is one of the few supports where it gets to late game and the player can think "Sweet, now it's my time to shine!" He is a strong mid, but he does the exact same thing in the mid and late game as a 4 position, it just takes 10 minutes longer for him to get there. The difference is you can have a mid hero who scales better/differently.
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I like this healthy discussion and I think a lot of you all have really valid opinions, so I'll give my 2 cents as well. Firstly I think this hero is pretty versatile in what role you can chuck him in, currently. I've heard mention of roaming, lane support, mid and offlane. I think all of these are viable, but the offlane position is perhaps where I feel he is strongest at the moment.
My friend and I are often talking about what items to get on this hero and although I'm sure I'll cop some hate for this one (try to hear me out before going keyboard warrior at least), but I think Midas is pretty potent and I'll explain why. Early on, I'm sure we can all agree that Ogre tends to be more about spells and levels than a critical item timing window. While I feel it should almost never get in the way of your Arcane Boots or whatever you're utilizing to keep you sustained or strong at low levels, I think Midas kind of promotes this play. Assuming you've got levels and a bit of farm (this hero is so hard to zone out at the moment), you can get a fairly decent timed Midas without dedicating yourself to CSing much at all (say pre-15 minutes?) and run around the map, creating loads of space.
Typically at the time you just have 1 point in Multicast, your ability to shut down and wreck heroes is insane. It makes sense to just blow up heroes and take towers while your hard farmer (or indeed, your esteemed supports who get nothing at the start) uses the space you've created to CS in another lane. This is where the Midas really takes effect, because you're actually getting a LOT of levels and even gold while pushing and fighting heaps! You can still get your Aghs/Force/Euls/etc. at a nice time without absorbing farm your team could use.
Now again, I'm not saying this is something to do every game, but it could and should be at least considered. As for your mid-late game items, Aghs is...well you've all said why it's super strong and generally you'll want it in any game you can be a 6-slotted Ogre; this is rarely the case, though. If I'm getting the gold to justify such a large investment early, I look at the enemy team and think, "Are they relying heavily on someone in the mid game? Is it likely that I'll be able to get in range for the double Fireblast in a fight? Will a multicast or two in there render them dead or so weak that they have to run immediately?" If it ticks all these boxes, then generally it's a big yes for me. If some of that criteria is lacking, I really consider other items and needless to say, if I'm not getting gold, I tend to disregard this item completely until later.
The beauty of this hero is that he's super flexible when it comes to inventory. Euls is amazing for sustain, control and great against heroes with a Dagger. Force Staff and Dagger are both wonderful initiation and escape choices. Ghost Scepter straight up counters certain heroes such as PA and transitions surprisingly nicely into Eth Blade later. Blood Stone is one of the best 3rd/4th slot items on this hero, I feel. The list goes on and on, but this is already a wall of text.
Hope I sparked some ideas and may your Multicasts be plentiful.
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On October 17 2014 17:19 Fleetfeet wrote:
Govie you're like a zillion percent wrong. Like someone else said, it's not a matter of whether you get aghas, it's a matter of when. No stoned-as-fuck "No guys seriously think about it, BKB instead of aghas!" is gonna back your argument up.
I dont like the aghs upgrade for 4200 gold. Its too expensive and i believe that 4200 gold is better spend for allmost any other item the team benefits from in a game. The bkb example was just a statement of how much i truly dont value the 4200 gold aghs on ogre.
Ogre Magi probably could just aswell buy an etheral blade or even a refresher and get 2 ignites, 2 stuns, 2 bloodlusts and a bunch of mana+manaregen without depleting your whole manapool for just that 1 extra stun. I believe that the aghs covers up bad manamanagement and itemizing and the times i see ogre magis get one is when the game was allready won.
Add: until ofcourse i meet ogres that rush the item and beat me with it over and over again but i dont think that will ever happen.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
No way BKB is better than Aghs on Ogre. You don't actually go around hitting shit. You go in to cast your spells, go out to wait for them to come off CD, then go back in to cast them again.
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On October 18 2014 00:00 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 17:19 Fleetfeet wrote:
Govie you're like a zillion percent wrong. Like someone else said, it's not a matter of whether you get aghas, it's a matter of when. No stoned-as-fuck "No guys seriously think about it, BKB instead of aghas!" is gonna back your argument up. I dont like the aghs upgrade for 4200 gold. Its too expensive and i believe that 4200 gold is better spend for allmost any other item the team benefits from in a game. The bkb example was just a statement of how much i truly dont value the 4200 gold aghs on ogre. Ogre Magi probably could just aswell buy an etheral blade or even a refresher and get 2 ignites, 2 stuns, 2 bloodlusts and a bunch of mana+manaregen without depleting your whole manapool for just that 1 extra stun. I believe that the aghs covers up bad manamanagement and itemizing and the times i see ogre magis get one is when the game was allready won. Add: until ofcourse i meet ogres that rush the item and beat me with it over and over again but i dont think that will ever happen.
So you would rather spend more money for a refresher orb that gives you an extra ignite/bloodlust every 3 minutes than double stuns every few seconds? If anything, Aghs rewards good mana management for players that don't use the Agh's stun too early or often and blow their entire mana pool.
I don't know how you can argue that a 4200 stat stick that gives him an extra stun ability is bad. I agree that he needs Mana Boots/OoV and a mobility item or Eul's Scepter first, but Aghanim Scepter is definitely core on this hero.
As for where to lane him, I agree with DavoS in that he is a pretty good mid against a lot of heroes, but you really need to snowball with that experience/gold advantage because he arrives at the same place in the late-game regardless. If going mid means you get a really fast mana boot/blink timing and can gank all over the map, that's great, but if not you probably could have had the same effect supporting or going offlane, and a better-scaling mid hero could have used that lane to leverage a better late-game.
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I value any of the standard support items and the mek, shiva, AC, blademail, bkb, vlads and a hex over aghs ogre. Maybe even linkens because i can put it on another player. Basically i find aghs not worth 4200 gold yes but im a ginger, maybe that explains alot
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Mek, Shivas, Linkens, and Hex I agree with. However, Mek and Shivas might be gotten on other heroes, Linkens is highly situational, and Hex is much harder to build. AC and Blademail are both kinda meh, and BKB just does not help him do what he's supposed to do.
Aghs is great.
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I used to make shivas as my first big "post mobiblity" luxury item whenever there was not an obvious shiva buyer on my team. That was when I had the same opinion of aghs as you. However, I am much less sure now. No other single item besides aghs give you the chance to straight up solo an enemy core. The thing is, in my experience with trying aghs, the hero obviously does not inherently farm particularly well. You often have a relatively high amount of money (in support terms) early game because you get kills, have good starting damage, etc. Most games this tapers off substantially and he is a very poor support later on because of no flash farming etc. If you go arcanes/urn or soulring/force staff for example, than you aren't getting an aghs until most games are already decided. The only way to get a relevant game impacting aghs most of the time is to pretty much straight rush it. Well, even many aghs proponents say this is a bad idea, but I haven't really seen any explanation of how you get an aghs before game is already decided of you make for example arcanes/urn/force at which point obviously you could buy whatever you want. This is particularly an issue in the current pub situation where you are VERY RARELY actually a 4, since 90% of games have one support and you can pretty much be assumed to be buying at least 90% of wards etc.
P.S. I think I value blink much more on this hero than the majority of the thread as well.
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blinkteresting idea atriedes, lionesque approach.
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The value of Aghs is the value you will get out of that particular game from the extra burst and stun. The burst is obviously more effectively the earlier you get it when the enemies have smaller HP pools, but the value of the stun component is based on target it's used on, i.e. stun on carry > stun on support, so when carries start getting BKBs Aghs loses a lot of it's effectiveness.
So you really shouldn't overgeneralize Aghs/no Aghs or when to get it. Rushing Aghs first is absolutely viable as your first major item depending on game situation. Ogre is so tanky at the start he doesn't need mobility items until he really starts to fall behind in gold and levels compared to enemy cores, and when that occurs exactly is highly dependent on if Ogre himself is played as a core or support. For instance If their cores already all have BKBs or are super tanky so you don't get much value from the burst/stun then Aghs is likely not a smart purchase.
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On October 18 2014 01:23 govie wrote:but im a ginger, maybe that explains alot
That explains eeeeeverything :D
As for blink - I'm one of the mentioned in this thread that don't value it that highly. To break it down, heroes that get blink fit in to one of three categories:
1) The big initiators. There's a million examples, but one thing holds true : Enigma, Magnus, Axe, Centaur, Sandking... the heroes that are using blink to initiate are using it off the back of an AoE skill that becomes dramatically more valuable given blink's positioning opportunities.
2) Positioning-dependant heroes. There IS some overlap here, but Puck, Crystal Maiden, Rubick, Windranger, Sniper... these are heroes that benefit from being at a specific place at a specific time, in part for the efficiency of their skills, but in part because they're very likely not durable enough to just blink into the middle of a fight, so staying elusive and on the edges is something a blink allows them to do.
3) Solo Killers. Slark, TA, Slardar, Legion Commander. These guys have a blink because they're probably terrifying and probably going to rape you if they catch you alone, and a blink is going to help them do just that.
So, in my books, Ogre doesn't really fit into any of those categories.
He's not a hard initiator that finds great efficiency for his skills from a blink dagger, nor one that can always afford to leave his team 1200 units behind him to initiate.
He's not super positioning dependant, as he's naturally beefy and has a movespeed modifier in his kit already, which covers his positioning needs.
He's closest to a solo killer, but doesn't really have consistent solo kill potential until aghas.
To be clear - Neverever in a game where I saw an Ogre Magi get Blink would I question it at all. Blink is awesome, and there are always going to be situations to get blink,,, I just don't think it's anywhere near as mandatory an item on Ogre as it is on other heroes.
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The same BKB weakness is true of many other Ogre Magi item options though to an extent. It's not like any of the items pierce spell immunity so you're heavily into buying an item for the cast time in that sense (or not even in the case of blade mail and HH). I don't really see item choices factoring in all that much in terms of BKB except in the case where you're on the hook to initiate as Ogre Magi or in terms of the item timings (obviously you'll get blademail or eul's much earlier) and other stats.
One nice thing about ogre+aghs vs BKB carries is his tankiness sort of comes into play there. With such short cooldowns he can still harass enemy supports, but if the enemy team does not focus him before their carry's BKB wears off then they're going to be in trouble (and if they do they're hitting a somewhat durable target).
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Just now team secret had an ogre aghs, he was snowballing so he had the gold for it. Their line up didnt have any disable or stun except the ogre stun. In a case of a more risky draft without any disables but a ogre stun then yes, an aghs would maybe be best. There arent many players that draft 1 disable/stun in a whole line up.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Even if they had more stuns, Ogre Aghs would still be amazing.
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best build is clearly bloodstone for sustained splitpush
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I'm less interested in this continued argument about whether aghs is good or not, and more interested in people discussing the reality of when/how you buy the damn thing. I mean on any other support with an expensive luxury item (aghs/sheep/whatever) people would just laugh and say "look dude, ofc aghs is amazing on disruptor, you won't get it many games though and its not the point of the hero". I think that is completely overlooked in this whole argument. To reiterate what I said previously, in my experience playing this hero as support in pubs most games you can't actually get an aghs before the game is already decided unless you straight up rush the thing after arcanes. (going aghs necessitates arcanes rather than tranquils)
In general it is not an argument about whether aghs is better than forcestaff. Duh, it costs twice as much. Its a question of whether it is just too greedy to build nothing but stats for 20 minutes after buying your arcanes. Maybe longer. Again, my opinion is that it is pretty hard to justify this if you are playing hard support buying wards/smoke/vision for obvious reasons.
Edit: I would also find a blink vs forcestaff discussion to be more useful laying out the pros/cons of that and when for each. If there is no other blink stunner on my team I always go blink if possible because, sure, its not as good as blink into an aoe stun; but initiation is always good and so is the general mobility provided. Ofc you need other heroes who can follow you up. I have made euls a few times and find it very underwhelming on this hero unless there is a special reason for it. I have gone tranquils/urn/blink/force many times and actually find it a quite nice build. Early tranquils/urn is also the best roaming build hands down over arcanes/soulbooster from the aghs build. Blows it out of the water and plays on the heroes strengths a lot more.
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if you play him support, urn and brown boots (maybe tranqs), then either PB or staff of wizardry, and decide if you wants euls, force, or straight aghs. Maybe soul ring if you need mana. He's one of the best urn supports in the game, crazy strong on him. I don't like arcanes on him because PB turns in to an amazing item for him and its 200 more.
but yeah it all depends on how the game is going, who your initiation is, etc
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I also dislike arcanes on him early game, but it is not remotely fair to say buy a point booster instead of arcanes because the decision to go aghs in and of itself kind of necessitates arcanes because of how phenomenally strong on demand mana items are with unrefined fireblast.
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On October 18 2014 08:57 Atreides wrote:
I also dislike arcanes on him early game, but it is not remotely fair to say buy a point booster instead of arcanes because the decision to go aghs in and of itself kind of necessitates arcanes because of how phenomenally strong on demand mana items are with unrefined fireblast.
soul ring is enough usually, isn't it?
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not really, I mean its a 6sec cd. You can actually make use of soulring, arcanes, and a wand most of the time. I basically never make arcanes if going the urn mobility route but yeah I think you kind of need to if go aghs.
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On October 18 2014 07:36 Atreides wrote:
I'm less interested in this continued argument about whether aghs is good or not, and more interested in people discussing the reality of when/how you buy the damn thing. I mean on any other support with an expensive luxury item (aghs/sheep/whatever) people would just laugh and say "look dude, ofc aghs is amazing on disruptor, you won't get it many games though and its not the point of the hero". I think that is completely overlooked in this whole argument. To reiterate what I said previously, in my experience playing this hero as support in pubs most games you can't actually get an aghs before the game is already decided unless you straight up rush the thing after arcanes. (going aghs necessitates arcanes rather than tranquils)
In general it is not an argument about whether aghs is better than forcestaff. Duh, it costs twice as much. Its a question of whether it is just too greedy to build nothing but stats for 20 minutes after buying your arcanes. Maybe longer. Again, my opinion is that it is pretty hard to justify this if you are playing hard support buying wards/smoke/vision for obvious reasons.
Edit: I would also find a blink vs forcestaff discussion to be more useful laying out the pros/cons of that and when for each. If there is no other blink stunner on my team I always go blink if possible because, sure, its not as good as blink into an aoe stun; but initiation is always good and so is the general mobility provided. Ofc you need other heroes who can follow you up. I have made euls a few times and find it very underwhelming on this hero unless there is a special reason for it. I have gone tranquils/urn/blink/force many times and actually find it a quite nice build. Early tranquils/urn is also the best roaming build hands down over arcanes/soulbooster from the aghs build. Blows it out of the water and plays on the heroes strengths a lot more.
On the discussion of greedy / not greedy support items -
Outright completely onesided stomps are 25 minutes at LEAST. You're not winning games in 15 minutes anymore, and more likely in games where you've had and maintained a steady advantage, you're not actually closing it out 'till 30-35 minutes. The game's slowed down a lot, and while yeah getting an Aghas on Kotl/ogre/disruptor was for the most part reserved for luxury situations, that's less the case now because the game IS going to last longer, and AoE bounty gold will mean you're a bit richer than you used to be.
The last few patches have put more gold in supports' hands. It isn't really the case anymore that one otherwise "luxury" item is in your hands come 40 minutes, especially if you're surviving through winning teamfights.
About needing arcanes for aghas -
I go / have gone tranqs -> urn > blademail -> aghas. I'm not convinced you need to get the second or third rounds of normal fireblasts off in a teamfight to be useful. Obviously it is beneficial, but soul ring/wand would be enough to get you there, you shouldn't need arcanes as well.
About blink being awesome -
Yes, blink is awesome :D
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ok so i agree in some things that orge magi is worse in some ways in mid, one is not getting a fast agha.
Why? well if u get high regen quick after that agha you can spamm two stuns with 2 second cooldown,yes two second cooldown you heard me right.
Imagine being able to do this in ganks/teamfights at 15-18 min mark.
it changes up the gameplay completeley.
What ppl also need to notice is compared to other tanky spellcasters or str heroes.
His armor, and str gain is really good.
U should not play as support being more in the backline in fights if u go midrole, you should more be like a frontliner like bristle, due to high levels and rely on team8s helping you.
and eul/force staff and your team8s spells to help u out.
unlike most core orge magi they play in the back wich is wrong, you dont play orge the same way as #2 role as #4/#5 role at all.
I heard somone out saying midas is great,i agree somewhat however, you delay your defining blast, and that is not good.
you will not i repeat you will not get your refined blast faster becuse of it.
and you are squishier, less armor less hp.
And if your team;s gameplan is sit back and play safe and farm with midas.
Then the orge magi pick was the wrong pick to begin with.
But i agree with you on Midas could be good, but its in so few scenarios, there is very few games i se midas could again be good but then again reason #1 meets reason #2 and collide and still make it obvious your pick was bad in the first place.
You dont see puck with midas either, remember, that aghs is just as important for orge as a blinkdagger on sk,puck,es.
That refined blast increases your stunduration and damage output signifigantly and also makes u a two button killer on any hero that is not STR based.
And as i said manapool you dont need as orge magi as after refined fireblast was thought to get nerfed by the change on it it actually got buffed.
just get sick mana regen, and u can cast it 24/7
thats also why euls and scythe, and vlad is core on him.
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What a fucking hero. This is how my usual "I bump a 50 weeks old topic to discuss about interesting things" post will start.
The armor buff and the bloodlust were minor buffs, but actually, the hero has been pretty good for a while. He's been ignored since the range nerf for some reasons, but to be honest, now that 6.85 came out, some annoying heroes for ogre have been nerfed (hey lesh), the hero is pickable again, especially after the glimmer nerf.
And god, he's really strong, and he might be picked a lot at ESL.
My skill build is a 2-2-1 build. I start with ignite all the time because it is in my opinion the best level one slow in the game. Huge range, decent damage per second and a 20% slow is always nice in the first minutes. This coupled with your armor and your health and your club makes you a dangerous laner.
Skipping bloodlust since 6.85 is not recommended anymore imo, as it can really help when defending a tower. The problem is that you need two points in fireblast: the damage is shit at level 1, and becomes decent at level 2.
I'm going arcane/urn/aghs. Aghs still core for all ogres.
Glimmer is really good and euls for the reasons quoted previously on this thread.
Your thoughts?
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i think he still has the issue that if his team doesnt snowball with his early strength, his teamfighting isn't as gr8 as some other 4 position supports, and if he doesn't find early kills, he just kinda falls behind and becomes underwhelming. you can farm camps and stacks with ignite, but idk the hero feels dependent on snowball to me
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I still want to see the Alch farms Ogre an 8 minutes aghs, who just goes around insta-gibbing everyone on the map for the next 25 minutes :D
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ye
when this hero falls behind the range on his stun becomes really apparent
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On October 04 2015 00:44 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
I still want to see the Alch farms Ogre an 8 minutes aghs, who just goes around insta-gibbing everyone on the map for the next 25 minutes :D
He needs levels and will be level 3-4 when he received aghs lol.
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I'm wondering, can you get the unrefined fireblast without any points in multicast?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 04 2015 23:55 HammerKick wrote:
I'm wondering, can you get the unrefined fireblast without any points in multicast?
yes, because its inherently tied to the aghs, not to multicast
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On October 04 2015 23:08 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2015 00:44 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
I still want to see the Alch farms Ogre an 8 minutes aghs, who just goes around insta-gibbing everyone on the map for the next 25 minutes :D He needs levels and will be level 3-4 when he received aghs lol.
Just run him offlane. Even if he was level 4, unrefined is a 275 damage nuke on a 6s cooldown that you never are oom for. Level 2 fireblast is a 110 damage nuke on a 12s cooldown. Level 2 ignite does a good amount of damage and slow too. From full mana, Unrefined, fireblast, ignite, wait 3s, unrefined again, is 864 magical damage, and this doesn't include the clubbing you're gonna get from an ogre who even at level 4 would have at least 1.1k hp. That's scary as hell :D And then just imagine when you hit level 7.
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United States47024 Posts
That's not any more burst than a hero that has 3+ nukes by default (e.g. Lina, Lesh, Zeus, Sky, etc.) and those don't require someone to feed you 4.2k gold. Unrefined Fireblast doesn't have the long CD of nuke ultimates, but early game your mana regen can't keep up with using it that often anyway.
Ogre's damage only really becomes scary with high ranks of multicast. Without 11 or 16, all the Agha does is make up for the fact that you have 2 non-nuke skills.
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Right, but my point is that you're hopefully not level 4 when you get the aghs at 8 (or 10 or whatever) minutes to begin with. A level 4 lina or zeus isn't going to be bursting the entire enemy team down either.
You'll be level 6 at least hopefully. 7 would be better. With a soul ring, you really don't need that much mana regen. You always have enough mana to use unrefined fireblast, so you just need to soul ring to get the first fireblast off:
Unrefined fireblast -> soul ring -> regular fireblast -> wait 3s, unrefined fireblast. (this maximizes stun time since unrefined has a lower cooldown than regular fireblast). If you have the mana to get ignite off before the combo, even better.
There's not a whole lot of heroes that can stand that kind of burst at this point. It's comparable to how not a whole lot of heroes can stand a full lina combo from a mid lina in the early game. Except this is an ogre, who needs no setup, and whose spells are on a 12s cooldown, one of which he will never run out of mana for on a 6s cooldown.
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Well he'd definitely have levels because it is unlikely that the alch gets a 8min agha.
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How are you guys building Orge in this patch? And how are you laning him? He seems very strong in a 3 or 4 position (although I worry in high level games he would just be zoned out hard so maybe a 3 position in an aggro dual lane?)
I have 2 potential builds for him at a 3 position, depending on what your team needs to do. I like either a standard--mana boots into blink into aghs--or going for a push build--mana boots, mek into necro book. The issue is securing enough farm to hit either blink of mek in a short enough time, and snowballing into your expensive item fast enough before bkb's. How are you guys building him? Do you think Mana boots can be skipped in favor of something like phase or treads (for faster farming)?
For 4 position, I think blink is your major goal. I don't think you can get mana books mek fast enough to press an advantage (I generally don't like having supports build mek except for Chen or Enigma who can farm it fast enough). Do you guys go for anything like medallion, glimmer cape or Urn?
Also, I am impressed by how well Ogre can jungle with one level of bloodlust and a quelling blade. He can't do it at Jugg speeds, but he can be efficient enough to allow a support farm a lane once he has something like mana boots.
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Im not a fan of Blink unless youre doing super well and can afford to Blink into fights. Maybe if youre having a super good game, but otherwise just going standard support items like Glimmer and Force are probably safer bets. Blink on #4 Ogre I doubt is a good idea.
Mek can obviously be good in the right game, but I doubt Necro is that good of an item. It doesnt synergize with him at all pretty much. And its not that strong of a pushing item honestly, they die from a few towers shots and some random nukes if you send them into towers. On top of that you wont get Necro3 until enemy carries are farmed enough to easily kill them. Even if you go Mek you should probably either go Greaves or move into Glimmer/Force afterwards. Force/Glimmer is strong both at 15min and 50min while Necro loses a lot in value as the game progresses.
Personally I like building some mana item into Agh. Naked Agh will put a strain on your mana situation. And items like Mek and Glimmer are hard on your mana too, so if you build those its hard to get that much use of Agh. My favorites are either Mana boots + Force (lots of extra mana, some basic regen from force for sustain) or tranq + Eul (regen and mana from Eul, hp regen from tranq, synergize well with the move speed) and then Agh. This also means you get Agh closer to your lvl 16, which is when Agh really starts to pay off.
If Im having a bad game and feel I wont make it to Agh, or make it way too late, I'll probably get both Glimmer and Force, maybe a Ghost scepter too.
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On October 06 2015 09:56 Kreb wrote:
Im not a fan of Blink unless youre doing super well and can afford to Blink into fights.
Is this because Ogre's tankability falls off in the later game? I have had a number of issues being close enough to use my stun on the proper enemy. I don't know if Ogre is good enough in a game where he cannot effectively use that stun.
On October 06 2015 09:56 Kreb wrote:
Mek can obviously be good in the right game, but I doubt Necro is that good of an item. It doesnt synergize with him at all pretty much. And its not that strong of a pushing item honestly, they die from a few towers shots and some random nukes if you send them into towers. On top of that you wont get Necro3 until enemy carries are farmed enough to easily kill them.
I have been impressed by how effective the necro units can be with bloodlust. (It is the same reason why you would build necro on Beastmaster, because the attack speed aura synergies so well with the low base attack speed melee unit) The real issue (as you have said) is getting the item fast enough, as Ogre needs a mana regen item to be effective, usually wants to tank up some to be a front liner, and Ogre is not effective at flash farming.
I might be asking for too much from an Ogre core position, but it strikes me as a possible build especially as necro continues to be buffed.
On October 06 2015 09:56 Kreb wrote:
My favorites are either Mana boots + Force (lots of extra mana, some basic regen from force for sustain) or tranq + Eul (regen and mana from Eul, hp regen from tranq, synergize well with the move speed) and then Agh. This also means you get Agh closer to your lvl 16, which is when Agh really starts to pay off.
If Im having a bad game and feel I wont make it to Agh, or make it way too late, I'll probably get both Glimmer and Force, maybe a Ghost scepter too.
I have not tried force or eul too much. I have never felt that Ogre needs mana regen after mana boots, if you are careful about your mana management; although, I have not tried force often when I support with him (usually opting for blink or rushing aghs).
Does Euls give anything more than the move speed or mana regen? Do you only build that in a game where the dispel effect is wanted (against Ember or Silencer)?
What do you think about Atos? The hp it gives seems like it would synergize with Ogre's high armor, but the effect is always lackluster as when a support would be able to afford it, it is usually already countered.
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Yes, kinda because his survivability falls off. Also Fireblast isnt really an initiation spell, so the value of starting a fight with a blink into fireblast is not really there. Also Blink is obviously only good for you, hence its more of a "core item" so to speak. If anyone plays mid Ogre I wouldnt mind Blink at all, it could be really good to keep forcing fights since you're likely ahead as mid. But as a #4 or even #5 Ogre, you want something that helps your team. Your fireblasts arent very important, saving a carry with a Force staff can be though.
Well, its true you can Bloodlust Necros. So theres some synergy there. But then again you likely have 2-4 other targets you want to BL over the Necros.
I like Force against typical melee heroes. Force is amazing against heroes like Alch, WK, Ursa, Sven, PA, Troll, and similar. Wait for them to commit on a target with their Stun (alch, wk, sven) or slow (ursa, troll) or jump (PA) or whatever, and force your buddy away. That can be fight winning.
Eul is as you say more against Silences and as interrupt. You can Eul a windranger whos focus firing your team mate, but often times you cant force your team mate since he might have got shackled facing the wrong direction. You can Eul a Void in chrono (although it got a lot harder with the range nerf), but not force you buddy in chrono. You can Eul an enemy LC in duel, but not force your buddy away from the duel. These are just 3 examples, and theres plenty of silencing heroes where its an option too. I always try to consider how an Eul would perform vs Force against the enemy abilities.
And dont forget about glimmer too. Its an amazing item used right. Sometimes I wonder if I should just screw Agh and get Force+Glimmer all games. I generally dont get it because I wanna get Agh, but thats just my playstyle really, and I like to dream about those 2x4 Multicasts . Not really sure its the best way to play him though.
Oh and I do agree Ogre doesnt need mana beyond mana boots...... until Agh. So from a mana management perspective the force or Eul is generally more as a preparation for the Agh to come, since just mana boots -> Agh might both give you lacking health sustain throughout the game as well as make it hard to get multiple unrefined fireblast off in a fight once you got Agh.
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Why are people so big fans of manaboots on him? If my team doesn't really need my arcanes I prefer having tranquils + soul ring. It is a bit more expensive but gives you a lot more. Especially since a supporting ogre might not have that fast force/blink and every bit of movement speed is really helpful then.
And in the case you have aghs I would always prefer a soul ring over arcanes anyway. Since u have the extra mana more often and unrefined isn't sucking away that much mana, since you have a smaller pool anyway.
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On October 08 2015 00:51 RolleMcKnolle wrote:
Why are people so big fans of manaboots on him? If my team doesn't really need my arcanes I prefer having tranquils + soul ring. It is a bit more expensive but gives you a lot more. Especially since a supporting ogre might not have that fast force/blink and every bit of movement speed is really helpful then.
And in the case you have aghs I would always prefer a soul ring over arcanes anyway. Since u have the extra mana more often and unrefined isn't sucking away that much mana, since you have a smaller pool anyway.
I usually grab it if I'm doing really well early on, since it benefits my allies too. But if its a slow game, I'd too prefer tranq sr.
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Tranquil boots are by far the best boots for an ogre because of the armor it gives you.
You want arcane boots when your team needs them.
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this hero is a lot of lols on the offlane now, against 95% of duallanes right clicks dont do enough to him
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He's pretty beastly in general now. Aether lens, if you can get that far in his build, makes him a monster in teamfights even more than he already was.
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On December 21 2015 23:54 Logo wrote:
He's pretty beastly in general now. Aether lens, if you can get that far in his build, makes him a monster in teamfights even more than he already was.
i usually get it after my core spell spam items, and after midas if i think the game is going to be slow or im doing well. offlane pretty much ensures that you'll enough levels to kill people and once u kill people u can make your merry way to lens
tranq+SR (i skip tranq if im doing TOO well)
notes:
the rop change back to 175 helps him a lot since he can walk into lane with an extra little something and the 3 armor doesnt help all thta much since you have 8 armor naturally lmao. then with 3.5 regen you pretty much shrug off most right clicks and walk back to regen to green with tango.
its IMPOSSIBLE for a single support to zone out ogre magi, support ALWAYS needs help with zoning and if ogre gets soul ring its impossible to stop him from laning since he just throws a ignite after ignite and not many heroes can deal with that (also note he'll have 7 hp/sec at this point). if u have a team that believes in you you can say "tp/gank if they dive top " since it takes a kitchen sink to kill him
whats actually different with this version is that aether lens is way stupid on this hero since it gives him every stat he needs and it makes his casts better than ogre magi back when he was actually being played in competitive dota. you cast ignites from across the screen to harass/cancel daggers and now u can actually fireblast from far range which is really annoying. the hero gets stalled a bit if midgame is slow since his farm speed is meh, so i usually go midas on him to make the lens -> aghs transition a lot better (a lot like pheonix) as once u have lens + aghs u pretty much lolmulticastlolmulticastlolmulticast. unfortunately in every game i've played him i've never been able to get octarine since the game always ends before 30 minutes
this hero usually cant win a game on his own but he can make life hell for the other team.
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This hero plays so well with farm and levels that it is almost a shame to play it as a support hero. I definitely need to explore the offlane capabilities of this hero.
With mana boots, soul ring, lens, aghs and core this hero becomes a stun machine gun. Extremely satisfying to play, if you manage to get that much farm before the game ends.
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Duo offlane support is probably better than offlane. Kinda like Undying was was (and is) during his reign several months ago. You get all the benefits of his crazy early level stats and can wreak havoc in the offlane, but in the end you're "only" a caster who doesnt benefit from items as much as other heroes. Besides, getting something like Lens+Agh isnt unreasonable as #4pos anyway, you dont need to be #3 to get that. Luxury items like Octarine, Hex or Bloodstone or something really isnt prioritized over core items on other heroes.
Lens does seem like a great pickup though. I think Lens is overbought overall (when initiators like Lion get Lens over Blink i cry a little inside) but Ogre is just a damage dealer in fights, not an initiator. Also he isnt squishy to the point when he needs glimmer or force just to survive like cm/disrupt/skywrath/whatever needs. Ogre can focus on improving his range/damage without being hurt too much.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
do u even need tranqs on this guy with soul ring, lens and his innate hp regen? im gonna try just brown boots soul ring arcanes, disassemble arcanes to make lens then aghs...or maybe midas as rabid suggested
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Hardly with Lens. Arcanes are great for Agh though. So you'll probably want two energy boosters both for Arcanes and Lens. You can disassemble the first couple for Lens if you want but you probably should buy them again either before or straight after Agh.
If you dont go Agh brown boots should suffice.
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I thought arcanes -> aghs -> disassemble for lens would be the way to go now, but I've been finding it kind of awkward. It makes it tough to use the Unrefined Fireblast without just being drained completely afterwards. Maybe that's because I've been skipping soul ring though. Still Aghs + Lens is pretty awesome for a lot of control, especially given that you can hit people with ignite from outside of their ability to blink on top of you.
If you do get tranqs it's more about the ability to quickly close in on people, not the regen.
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theres a lot of lanes where spending 175+350 for a lane win is worth it since i dont get lens straight away. i usually skip arcanes unless i think extra mana would help me win the lane, then disassemble later.
i think dual offlane is only good with ogre sometimes if u can farm off of the lane, he really needs the extra levels
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Its so sad that this hero became from 'dingdingdingding' to 4 HP regen 6 armour level 1 slapping hero.
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EPT
