EPTNigma Discussion - Page 17
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derElbe
Germany571 Posts
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juuto
809 Posts
There used to be a time where Nigma was one of the top teams in the world and now they've consistently struggled to even be one of the top teams in their region during the DPC season. Are they more of a team of influencers instead of professional players or something? They're not taking their competitive careers seriously at all. No roster who did as poorly as Nigma did during the last DPC season stays together just to get even more shitty results in the next DPC season. I still have faith in 4/5 of the roster but they just need to kick MC instead of keeping him around just because he used to be a much better in the past. Kuro struggles too much trying to hold onto his players even when it's clearly not working. Competitive teams shuffle their rosters when things don't go right for a long period of time, why exactly is he treating his teams like the exception? He's consistently bottom networth and every game there's excuses for him, Earthshaker might be one the most broken heroes at the moment and people still refuse to blame him for doing poorly. Keeping the same players for a long period of time breeds complacency and if Kuro can't extinguish complacency in all of his players, it's time to let the complacent players go. Nobody can look at the data coming from his latest games and honestly tell me that he's not doing a horrific job. I get there are problems elsewhere but honestly, every draft looks bad when you have a player that completely bombs out of any game where he faces any difficulty. Nigma should be a competitive team first, not just a familiar group of players who have been around a long time. | ||
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midou
Bulgaria1168 Posts
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Archeon
3275 Posts
Skill wise Matu is the better player imo, but Matu lost his mid lane a lot too and we always excused him for it. Honestly if w33 played a bit less suicidal he'd prolly be a top mid. | ||
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derElbe
Germany571 Posts
Plus : They surely miss the real competition without online tournaments. | ||
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juuto
809 Posts
On February 11 2021 06:28 Archeon wrote: ^I feel like Matu vs w33 is a swap of playertypes. Matu's mid was more comparable to a classic tanky offlaner than a classic mid, so I get why Kuro got w33, who is more of a classical mid roamer. It definitely gave him more strategic options, despite w33's very small hero pool. Skill wise Matu is the better player imo, but Matu lost his mid lane a lot too and we always excused him for it. Honestly if w33 played a bit less suicidal he'd prolly be a top mid. Matu was a complete disaster of a mid on Liquid around the time he was kicked. Before he was kicked, Matu was getting seriously flamed by everyone including fans, but the emotions from the kick made everyone become revisionists just like how people pretend Liquid wasn't by far the most dominant team coming into TI7. The TI7 "underdog" story where a team that won every single international LAN before going into TI somehow beats the odds and wins, and the mistreated Matu story are much more compelling stories than "The TI7 favorites won" and "Someone was kicked for playing bad". If they magically brought Matu back to the team now, they'd have to kick Miracle, not w33 to make room for him. I don't understand why people are comparing Matu, a carry player on Secret, to a sacrificial mid player. People are delusional as hell for still arguing about Matu and w33 as they play two different roles. Matu is a carry player while w33 plays position 2/3 depending on the game. | ||
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Comeon_19
India1 Post
w33 is not a top 5 mid currently and you don't win super tournaments without a top top mid. | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
It is possible to replace W33 as there is more talent on Mid. Feel that SEA have a couple that is better then him in Mikoto and Yopaj. | ||
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Rufus Dupres
Germany1071 Posts
IF they are considering to replace W33 which I doubt, I think the first option may be Sumail. Miracle going mid may be the solution, but this move they could have done already two years ago instead of kicking Matu, so I doubt he has any interest in moving back to the mid lane permanently and even he may struggle against the top tier players considering his long absence from the mid lane and 1on1-matchups. I still think that they can solve most of their issues just by a better laning setup which is not set to fail and being behind 5k+ after ten minutes and having to play catch-up game overall. | ||
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midou
Bulgaria1168 Posts
On February 11 2021 18:46 juuto wrote: Matu was a complete disaster of a mid on Liquid around the time he was kicked. Before he was kicked, Matu was getting seriously flamed by everyone including fans, but the emotions from the kick made everyone become revisionists just like how people pretend Liquid wasn't by far the most dominant team coming into TI7. The TI7 "underdog" story where a team that won every single international LAN before going into TI somehow beats the odds and wins, and the mistreated Matu story are much more compelling stories than "The TI7 favorites won" and "Someone was kicked for playing bad". If they magically brought Matu back to the team now, they'd have to kick Miracle, not w33 to make room for him. I don't understand why people are comparing Matu, a carry player on Secret, to a sacrificial mid player. People are delusional as hell for still arguing about Matu and w33 as they play two different roles. Matu is a carry player while w33 plays position 2/3 depending on the game. I am not delusional, I understand very well who plays what however Matu 1 + Miracle 2 > Miracle 1 + w33 2. | ||
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Archeon
3275 Posts
@Matu mid: Historically Liquid/Nigma played Matu mostly mid and Miracle mostly safe and even when they played Miracle mid they almost always put Miracle on a scaling core in a good matchup and Matu on a fighting core who is hard to lane against (Necro/Viper/Veno). So Matu never got farm priority like he does quite often in Secret, similarly to w33 his job was mostly to create space for the other two lanes. On February 12 2021 01:03 Rufus Dupres wrote: Khezu would come into my mind as well, but as you said there is not really an offlaner on the "market" which I would consider as an upgrade to MC. Given the schedule till TI, they cannot start experimenting with fresh blood and hope to make it work but just need to grind like hell and get back into form. IF they are considering to replace W33 which I doubt, I think the first option may be Sumail. Miracle going mid may be the solution, but this move they could have done already two years ago instead of kicking Matu, so I doubt he has any interest in moving back to the mid lane permanently and even he may struggle against the top tier players considering his long absence from the mid lane and 1on1-matchups. I still think that they can solve most of their issues just by a better laning setup which is not set to fail and being behind 5k+ after ten minutes and having to play catch-up game overall. Imo Miracle MC and Sumail would be way too greedy of a tri-core. Especially considering that Kuro likes to pick up some farm as well. You need a player that plays occasionally sacrificial because 1-2 of your cores will have bad lane matchups on average. Khezu could work, but while he's very high ranked and probably has the mechanical capabilities it's been years since he really participated in top level dota, so it'd be a big leap of faith. I wouldn't mind them trying out 33 tbh, that guy has a lot of potential. Not sure if he'd take that risk though considering the fact that Tundra looks surprisingly solid atm. | ||
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wims80
1892 Posts
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juuto
809 Posts
In most games, the hero that's supposed to carry the game plays in the safelane. Heroes like Invoker used to be allowed to take up all the space in the world because he'd scale just as hard as a carry but now, Invoker's playstyle is completely different. Ana switched to playing mostly carry for the same reason Miracle did, their playstyle requires them to be top farm priority, and carry heroes are the only heroes that thrive from being top farm priority which means they'lll play in the safelane most of the time,. | ||
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Archeon
3275 Posts
After the removal of comeback gold the standard has gone mostly back to ti3 space creator mids that are supposed to enable your other two lanes even if they loose. It's still possible to draft your midgame snowball fighting carry like Morph or Slark mid to accelerate their scaling if they get guaranteed a winning lane, but throwing them into a loosing matchup means your carry will have to play catchup all game while your space creators are too xp starved to make moves. | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
You can say that Liquid (Nigma now) even changed to W33 they got 2nd in TI and finish above Secret and Matu. Maybe because W33 fitted that patch better, i don't feel this patch really suits him that well. Also we can discus if Matu would be better now, but he won't comeback and i don't see any carries that bring the skillset he delivers around that they can bring in. But hard to say if there are carries pos 1 that can play more the supporting role if they are not asked to do it on a team. | ||
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MintberryCrunchs
Germany462 Posts
If you want to understand Nigmas problem, look at Matus story. During his final time in Liquid(now Nigma), he was a shadow of his former self. Beeing forced into an uncomfortable role, having to play a very certain style and very certain picks for the "greater benefit of the team". He really looked like the weak link of the team. 1,5 years forward and he can comfortably look back on an incredible year, beeing the carry of the most succesful E-Sports team in 2020, beeing the Top contender in the strongest Dota region and most of all,beeing able to play the role and the heroes he wants. If you dont see a pattern here, i dont know what nees to happen. The funny thing is, W33, especially early on, nearly looked the same as Matu, even having to play the same vipers, death prophets and such. Thats the difference between Secret (and other Teams as well) and Nigma - in Secret, they try to draft to the strenghts of the players, Zai can play his crazy Offlanes, Yapzor his farmheavy 4 etc., while in Nigma, brilliant players like MC have to sacrifice themself because for some reason the Team or Kuro ( i really dont know) are stuck with a vision of Dota that doesnt really work since their victory at TI7. | ||
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midou
Bulgaria1168 Posts
I also commented months ago that they swapped Matu for W33 but aside from drafting WR a couple of times they still put him on the same heroes like Matu - viper, pugna, DP etc. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2854 Posts
I don't like Miracle's pos1. One of the recent games where he was Ursa, he looked uncomfortable most of the game, with late enrages or mistimed BKBs, as well as awkard map movements on a hero with early power spikes. I'm not anywhere near good enough for this opinion to have merit, but if I were Nigma's coach, I'd be pushing for getting Miracle to play Gyrocopter (or Luna or similar) in scrims, and ALWAYS BE FIGHTING ALWAYS. The temptation for Miracle to go "Oh, but what if I get battlefury and farm hard?" or other method of falling back on this burning-style evade and farm position 1 feels like a weak fallback, so getting Miracle to suffer through learning to play a tempo-based pos1 feels like it should be time well spent. I think W33's been playing fantastic, but like Miracle, keeps getting stuck in a familiar role and ends up feeling predictable. I'm fine with W33's play on Viper or DP or whatever, but I want the strategically threatening picks or flexibility in the draft that threaten things that W33 can actually play as a secondary carry, and not just play as space-creation for Miracle. Because of these two 'mismatches', it feels like the rest of the team is in an awkward position and it's really hard to assess their play from that. I know MC can play some scary farming pos3 (Beastmaster, Enigma) and also play more starved offlanes (Clockwork) but it never feels like MC is playing something that is part of an overall plan. I'd be interested in seeing a (??) carry, Miracle Mid, W33 pos3/4, and drop GH or MC for a decent pos1 player. I feel like W33's been forced into a role where he's making a lot of the map movement and rotation decisions, and could be made to do well in the pos3/4 role. Both GH and MC haven't been super impressive to me lately (Even though it breaks my heart to say that, as I adore GH) Iunno. I agree with the general sentiment that current Nigma is playing a style of dota that doesn't work at the moment. I want things to move; they've got talent and obviously aren't far from being a horrifying team again... they just feel a little devoid of a functioning gameplan. | ||
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juuto
809 Posts
On February 16 2021 17:42 Fleetfeet wrote: Yeah, it's been frustrating seeing this consistent all-in on Miracle carrying, like an addict returning to their fix. From the outside, it's clear that it doesn't work and isn't good, but for some reason we keep ending back up in that same place. I don't like Miracle's pos1. One of the recent games where he was Ursa, he looked uncomfortable most of the game, with late enrages or mistimed BKBs, as well as awkard map movements on a hero with early power spikes. I'm not anywhere near good enough for this opinion to have merit, but if I were Nigma's coach, I'd be pushing for getting Miracle to play Gyrocopter (or Luna or similar) in scrims, and ALWAYS BE FIGHTING ALWAYS. The temptation for Miracle to go "Oh, but what if I get battlefury and farm hard?" or other method of falling back on this burning-style evade and farm position 1 feels like a weak fallback, so getting Miracle to suffer through learning to play a tempo-based pos1 feels like it should be time well spent. I think W33's been playing fantastic, but like Miracle, keeps getting stuck in a familiar role and ends up feeling predictable. I'm fine with W33's play on Viper or DP or whatever, but I want the strategically threatening picks or flexibility in the draft that threaten things that W33 can actually play as a secondary carry, and not just play as space-creation for Miracle. Because of these two 'mismatches', it feels like the rest of the team is in an awkward position and it's really hard to assess their play from that. I know MC can play some scary farming pos3 (Beastmaster, Enigma) and also play more starved offlanes (Clockwork) but it never feels like MC is playing something that is part of an overall plan. I'd be interested in seeing a (??) carry, Miracle Mid, W33 pos3/4, and drop GH or MC for a decent pos1 player. I feel like W33's been forced into a role where he's making a lot of the map movement and rotation decisions, and could be made to do well in the pos3/4 role. Both GH and MC haven't been super impressive to me lately (Even though it breaks my heart to say that, as I adore GH) Iunno. I agree with the general sentiment that current Nigma is playing a style of dota that doesn't work at the moment. I want things to move; they've got talent and obviously aren't far from being a horrifying team again... they just feel a little devoid of a functioning gameplan. There have been periods where I thought GH was completely mediocre but he's honestly the best player on the team right now imo. w33 is better off staying mid since he's a much more flexible player than Nigma's drafting suggests. I think Nigma needs is a space creating 3 like Zai so it could allow w33 to pick greedier heroes which he's already proven he's good at. Right now, without w33 on Batrider or any space creating hero, I think Nigma completely falls apart. MC is a giant blackhole in the Nigma lineup. | ||
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Rufus Dupres
Germany1071 Posts
 Nigma announcement RMN will be replacing him, wondering if he will be playing Pos 3 or if they make even further changes in their roles. | ||
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