On March 07 2018 02:59 Nagvalk wrote: I have been supporting OG since their inception and am quite familiar with the state of the game and the pro scene thank you. Your unneccesary flame is not backed up by the facts. Yes, there are more teams becoming competitive during the course of this DPC season. OG, however, have not posted any results against the top teams since TI. While it is true that alot of the tier 2 teams are showing progress and are taking games off the tier 1 teams, OG has struggled to find any cohesion in their laning positions, drafts and overall strategy.
What I am sad about is that my team, who were one of the top teams, are now looking very average and are not showing any improvement, unlike teams like Optic and Col
You called them tier 3. Your team is not tier 3. You are sad, but you could be more supportive in a scene where teams strenghts shift so easily and so fast. There are ups and downs and sometimes the only way forward is a roster change, but you never know, Reso ended up TI runner-up on a team noone ever saw as a contender.
If I flame you is only because you sound entitled. What should TL fans be posting then? They won TI and now they are 1-2, they haven't won much lately. You can be however you like, but you can't go expecting everyone will agree with you in a forum.
I have never expected much from them since they got another pos1 to fill a mid position. They did really good so far and way better than I thought they could.
I can understand him though, as a fan this must be frustrating. They have this roster since after TI, and you really don't see much improvement. I also think this team is not going anywhere in this form. You need too switch roles, change player, or at least try other playstyles. Comparing them to liquid is a bit funny, we won quite some tournaments since TI, just not the majors. And our worst placements were 3th-4th. As a liquid fan life still is good;)
On March 07 2018 02:59 Nagvalk wrote: I have been supporting OG since their inception and am quite familiar with the state of the game and the pro scene thank you. Your unneccesary flame is not backed up by the facts. Yes, there are more teams becoming competitive during the course of this DPC season. OG, however, have not posted any results against the top teams since TI. While it is true that alot of the tier 2 teams are showing progress and are taking games off the tier 1 teams, OG has struggled to find any cohesion in their laning positions, drafts and overall strategy.
What I am sad about is that my team, who were one of the top teams, are now looking very average and are not showing any improvement, unlike teams like Optic and Col
You called them tier 3. Your team is not tier 3. You are sad, but you could be more supportive in a scene where teams strenghts shift so easily and so fast. There are ups and downs and sometimes the only way forward is a roster change, but you never know, Reso ended up TI runner-up on a team noone ever saw as a contender.
If I flame you is only because you sound entitled. What should TL fans be posting then? They won TI and now they are 1-2, they haven't won much lately. You can be however you like, but you can't go expecting everyone will agree with you in a forum.
I have never expected much from them since they got another pos1 to fill a mid position. They did really good so far and way better than I thought they could.
I can understand him though, as a fan this must be frustrating. They have this roster since after TI, and you really don't see much improvement. I also think this team is not going anywhere in this form. You need too switch roles, change player, or at least try other playstyles. Comparing them to liquid is a bit funny, we won quite some tournaments since TI, just not the majors. And our worst placements were 3th-4th. As a liquid fan life still is good;)
Being sad is ok, lashing out isn't. They played this so called 4p1 strat only once, and I don't agree that even was 4p1. I also understand him, I have been following NaVi for like the longest time, I know how it feels.
They seem to not really know what to do in their games. They get reso farmed, but sack both their other cores to do it- this is a 3 core meta, not a solo core one. Notail always plays this unselfish carry that tp's to other lanes in response to ganks, instead of getting farmed. Their current lineup just hasnt scaled as I thought they should and ot seems like they have run out of ideas.
I have no idea what games you're watching, but it's certainly not OG games. While it's true that Notail is still playing his space creating/sacrificial carry (just like so many other 1s like Matu), they have massively changed S4s farm allocation and on some heroes he is taking more farm than Notail. I get that you're frustrated but you're just venting, no facts involved which is particularly rich after you scolded another poster for lack of facts. "They haven't improved" when they cruised through 5 qualifiers while losing 2 games (iirc). After TI they were losing games left and right. "4 protect 1" when the hardest carry they are running is TB and Notail and S4 are constantly on DPs, Lycans, Tinys and such.
Are they where they used to be 1-2 years ago? Of course not. Lately the have been showing very strong early games (which used to be their weakness) but thrown away big leads. This is much easier to fix than always getting behind early and needing a spectacular mid game to catch up (which they so often managed to pull off before the slump).
A team with such a reputation will always catch a lot of flak when they're not living up to the very high expectations (just like Navi, Alliance and recently EG) but if you want to be taken seriously you need to be able to look at the games and not just slam your head on the keyboard in a fit of rage.
A good example of them not going 4 protect 1, is the latest win against Mineski, where they shared the farm pretty equally all across the cores, and they have been doing this for the last month and half at least.
Even with this win i'm not sold, i still think Notail feel kind of useless most of the game, and it's not about playing a sacrifical Pos 1, cause also Matu or Fear do the same thing but they still can be relevant in fights. And i'm sorry to say but Reso is not Miracle, he's not the kind of player that will always carry you alone, especially in this tri-core meta. I think they should try to give Notail more space since this isn't working right now. Even this last game vs Mineski i felt like it was Reso plus 4, and that will not work with slightly better teams.
On March 07 2018 21:47 Minishield wrote: Even with this win i'm not sold, i still think Notail feel kind of useless most of the game, and it's not about playing a sacrifical Pos 1, cause also Matu or Fear do the same thing but they still can be relevant in fights. And i'm sorry to say but Reso is not Miracle, he's not the kind of player that will always carry you alone, especially in this tri-core meta. I think they should try to give Notail more space since this isn't working right now. Even this last game vs Mineski i felt like it was Reso plus 4, and that will not work with slightly better teams.
Gotta say I agree on the Reso part. There was massive hype about him after TI but so far the only thing he has impressed me with is his farm speed when he's left alone for 20 minutes. Given that this basically never happens in the current meta I'm often disappointed. So far I haven't seen the dominance and brilliance of a Miracle or the resilience of an Ana from him.
On March 07 2018 21:47 Minishield wrote: Even with this win i'm not sold, i still think Notail feel kind of useless most of the game, and it's not about playing a sacrifical Pos 1, cause also Matu or Fear do the same thing but they still can be relevant in fights. And i'm sorry to say but Reso is not Miracle, he's not the kind of player that will always carry you alone, especially in this tri-core meta. I think they should try to give Notail more space since this isn't working right now. Even this last game vs Mineski i felt like it was Reso plus 4, and that will not work with slightly better teams.
Gotta say I agree on the Reso part. There was massive hype about him after TI but so far the only thing he has impressed me with is his farm speed when he's left alone for 20 minutes. Given that this basically never happens in the current meta I'm often disappointed. So far I haven't seen the dominance and brilliance of a Miracle or the resilience of an Ana from him.
Yeah I Reso was an odd choice from the start, at least i thought so. They removed Ana but in doing so they took away the roll that he filled and there was no replacement, cause Reso is not a space creator.
So I agree OG is doing better but I dont think they will reach the tier 1 teams this season, unless one of the players can transform his style. Cause the players just don't match each other and I am surprised they did not see that problem coming.
Think the problem is pretty simple. OG lacks a mid player that can win games for them, and it is very rare that a team reach the top without such a player.
I just saw the game vs Liquid, i was really amazed by how OG was playing teamfights in that game, really good engages and really amzing plays by Jerax. Then they make stupid decisons by going aggressive when they should have not, figthing without buyback on their cores, that's really unusual by this team, i feel like that since Reso joined their decision making became a lot worse, just think about the game vs VG last major, they force a lot of fights and are a lot less patient and patience was always something that made them shine in the mid to late game. I feel like the other 4 players are trying to adapt to Reso style and it should be the opposite.
last game was on notail, that was the worst lycan show i have seen. the last fight, notail actived bkb and ult attacking warlock, who already threw his rock, then second rock came down after wl died. he was like overcommited or off position entire game. reso jerax and s4 played extreamly well last game. i don't see any hope vs tier1 team if notail always play like this.
On March 08 2018 07:43 jack_knife wrote: you need second core to finish the game, not space creater carry.
Both can work. Just watch matumba play viper or something like that, when miracle plays terrorblade. but it depends on the lineup. When you have a death prophet, you also need a normal right click carry to back her up. Because when exorcism is down, she is useless. I don't think notail was the main problem OG had that game. They just crumbled in the last 10 min, other then that, they played pretty well.
Fake News! Kuro gets lassod by s4 and forstaffs away without using his ult. Here to check: (12:08) simply not true :D On the other hand if Kuro drops the ult on Notail, Kuro would maybe survive and lycan would maybe not be able to teleport out after ageas use.
Pretty interesting. OG does great in qualifier where they can pray on tier 2 teams, but they seem to be completely unable to even take games off the real tier 1 teams. OG vs Secret, Liquid, VP, VG and Newbee combined is a score of 3:24. That's pretty alarming.
Pretty interesting. OG does great in qualifier where they can pray on tier 2 teams, but they seem to be completely unable to even take games off the real tier 1 teams. OG vs Secret, Liquid, VP, VG and Newbee combined is a score of 3:24. That's pretty alarming.
It is, but a majority of those losses must have been before the qualifier run, right?
I take solace from the fact that they're often on the verge of beating the top teams (and then throw it away). They're kind of in the same place as Complexity in my view- can look dominant against anyone, can look like retards against anyone.
On March 08 2018 07:39 jack_knife wrote: last game was on notail, that was the worst lycan show i have seen. the last fight, notail actived bkb and ult attacking warlock, who already threw his rock, then second rock came down after wl died. he was like overcommited or off position entire game. reso jerax and s4 played extreamly well last game. i don't see any hope vs tier1 team if notail always play like this.
I agree, notails farm was underwhelming. But I have to agree with the earlier post, a much improved performance. clear strategy, executed fairly well, a worse team would have lost, but liquid pull out these clutch performances when they have to.
On March 08 2018 07:43 jack_knife wrote: you need second core to finish the game, not space creater carry.
Let me get this straight: a Lycan was a "space creater carry" and not a "core". I don't even know what to say.
come on... you look that lycan show, look the damage he did and the networth he got. you tell me that was a carry. the last fight was a disaster, he literally straight went to warlock, who already used ult... almost every og's game, watching notail's networth, i feel like watching a position 4 or position 5 farmer creating space for other guys.
EPT
