On August 07 2015 10:43 Bigtony wrote: The QOP pick two games in a row for S4 was incredibly weak and they never had a solution for storm spirit. :|
Really good point, and when I think about it I honestly felt like S4 on the QoP "Underperformed" threw out the entire tournament. But then again they have always given up the Lina pick.....and the one thing this tourny has taught is the Lina is to be feared. Possibly they felt forced to pickup the QoP so they couldn't have both Lina / QoP? The double BKB peirce is popular.
Well they did pick lina, 3 times, 2 against iG and one against vp (the first game) and then proceed to win all those games. And with a better drafting strategy, they could pick sf qop and have a lina on ppy if they really want to rely on those hero for RTZ and s4. s4's qop wasnt that bad, but vp know how to play around a qop and minimize it's impact so eventually it's less effective. Letting storm get so far in the draft, when it's your nemesis as you dont pick stuns, is really silly, even more when you ban anti mage. And again it's really weird when you see the draft they had when they won their first game against vp (3 stun + dark seer + a lot of aoe dmg)
I hope they stay together though, the next season with the majors is promicing a lot of quality tournaments (and probably lots of compendiums and $$ for the players). Zai might reconsider as they are still a strong squad beside some disappointments but did we ever saw a team playing 2 ti with no roster changes between ?
Na'vi TI3 and TI4 didn't have any roster changes.
Not trying to be flaming, but does anyone else think RTZ might be too raging to properly be on a winning team? When things are going well, he's one of the best carries in the world, but I'm scared for him turning out to be like a second, albeit vastly superior SingSing. Unlike Sing, teams are still going to flock to get him on his team. But I'm worried a bit if this becomes a recurring pattern. But then again this is dota, and it's still such an unrefined scene that bad breakups are the norm and pleasant, mutual separations are rare.
i doubt rtz raging is why there is an issue. from a psychological standpoint, raging results in poor play and both zai and artour kept secret in the game despite poor play from s4 (see: top where he blinks in to sonic wave and gets immediately blown up and is forced to buy back)
Well, I think raging might not make you play worse, but it certainly makes the whole team play worse (or get mad irritated). I know if I had a player who was doing well but trashing his supports and other teammates, I'd insta-mute him. And then chemistry issues arise. So like my original post said, what if RTZ is just a crazy great player who might be one of the most individually skilled players but can't stay in a team until he fixes some parts of his personality. Thoughts?
On August 08 2015 00:14 prplhz wrote: seems rather speculative
yep. there was definitely some conflict occurring between the players, but who knows what actually happened until someone actually reports something. from what i understand players do rage at each other from time to time, so i doubt it was inhibiting their play throughout the entire main stage part of the tournament.
On August 08 2015 00:16 IntoTheheart wrote: Are they really having problems practicing together as a team?
no one knows anything until one of the players or cyborgmatt says something
arteezy basically admitted they have a problem scrimming together.
Is there an easy-to-find source for this or is it just one of those passing remarks?
On August 07 2015 10:43 Bigtony wrote: The QOP pick two games in a row for S4 was incredibly weak and they never had a solution for storm spirit. :|
Really good point, and when I think about it I honestly felt like S4 on the QoP "Underperformed" threw out the entire tournament. But then again they have always given up the Lina pick.....and the one thing this tourny has taught is the Lina is to be feared. Possibly they felt forced to pickup the QoP so they couldn't have both Lina / QoP? The double BKB peirce is popular.
Well they did pick lina, 3 times, 2 against iG and one against vp (the first game) and then proceed to win all those games. And with a better drafting strategy, they could pick sf qop and have a lina on ppy if they really want to rely on those hero for RTZ and s4. s4's qop wasnt that bad, but vp know how to play around a qop and minimize it's impact so eventually it's less effective. Letting storm get so far in the draft, when it's your nemesis as you dont pick stuns, is really silly, even more when you ban anti mage. And again it's really weird when you see the draft they had when they won their first game against vp (3 stun + dark seer + a lot of aoe dmg)
I hope they stay together though, the next season with the majors is promicing a lot of quality tournaments (and probably lots of compendiums and $$ for the players). Zai might reconsider as they are still a strong squad beside some disappointments but did we ever saw a team playing 2 ti with no roster changes between ?
Na'vi TI3 and TI4 didn't have any roster changes.
Not trying to be flaming, but does anyone else think RTZ might be too raging to properly be on a winning team? When things are going well, he's one of the best carries in the world, but I'm scared for him turning out to be like a second, albeit vastly superior SingSing. Unlike Sing, teams are still going to flock to get him on his team. But I'm worried a bit if this becomes a recurring pattern. But then again this is dota, and it's still such an unrefined scene that bad breakups are the norm and pleasant, mutual separations are rare.
i doubt rtz raging is why there is an issue. from a psychological standpoint, raging results in poor play and both zai and artour kept secret in the game despite poor play from s4 (see: top where he blinks in to sonic wave and gets immediately blown up and is forced to buy back)
Well, I think raging might not make you play worse, but it certainly makes the whole team play worse (or get mad irritated). I know if I had a player who was doing well but trashing his supports and other teammates, I'd insta-mute him. And then chemistry issues arise. So like my original post said, what if RTZ is just a crazy great player who might be one of the most individually skilled players but can't stay in a team until he fixes some parts of his personality. Thoughts?
This isn't a pub. If you had a player who raged but was single handedly one of the best players on the planet, and was friends with you and the rest of your team you wouldn't be muting him.
No one is perfect, there's going to be drawbacks to any player and since this is a team game unfortunately you're going to have to get 5 players that can mesh well. Some people rage, some break under pressure, some don't talk, some talk too much, some are serial throwers, some might be socially/mentally great but bad players, etc. It becomes a matter of what you're willing to deal with as a team. Everything is a trade off.
The way this thread exploded I thought maybe something actually happened.
RTZ is a great talent, one of the best cores in the game (seriously though have you watched this tournament? There are some amazing players surfacing) but if you don't think he has some growing up to do before he stops being a major burden to his teams' chemistry I think you must be delusional. He's not responsible for this result: he brought what he was expected to bring. But that's still reality. And unfortunately I don't think he cares enough about his career to do anything about it. Always having some better shit on the horizon than being one of the world's most successful Dota2 players is about as typically too-cool-for-school as it gets. It's too bad.
As for Zai, I have no fucking idea how he managed to compete at this level while being a student to this point. I hope he stays sharp enough to come back to the game strong.
S4 had a bad tournament, there's no denying that. But calling him a bad player is basically revealing yourself to be a shit, post-shuffle bandwagon fankid. S4 had to make a lot of adjustments to fit into the new lineup. RTZ only had to continue eating the map. S4 is still world-class. Everyone has bad periods in their career.
Puppey was below his standard. So was Kuro. It happens.
I don't know what they do from here but if you think any one player was the problem... lol.
Noone even knows what was said in the booth. Arteezy waving his hands a bit and being a bit pissed about something is hardly a big deal alone, assuming that he was only talking about some draft or game related thing. Sure he could have also said "Kuro you little German learn how to play plz" but I highly doubt that was the case.
Obviously it is possible that the team had issues even before this and who knows maybe they were even due to Arteezy, but to make these conclusions based on what happened in the booth or based on who Arteezy follows on twitter is highly questionable.
On August 08 2015 01:22 spudde123 wrote: Noone even knows what was said in the booth. Arteezy waving his hands a bit and being a bit pissed about something is hardly a big deal alone, assuming that he was only talking about some draft or game related thing. Sure he could have also said "Kuro you little German learn how to play plz" but I highly doubt that was the case.
Obviously it is possible that the team had issues even before this and who knows maybe they were even due to Arteezy, but to make these conclusions based on what happened in the booth or based on who Arteezy follows on twitter is highly questionable.
You shouldn't need the entire trail of breadcrumbs laid out for you. If you don't care enough to pay attention to the whole picture for longer than a couple of hours you shouldn't care enough to argue with people about it.
Classic fhdh treats his speculations into facts. The effort is futile guys i've seen the dude still treats his speculations as facts even though the truth is laid out by the actual people involved which claims the opposite but he still won't drop his beliefs.
You'd be a great pair withMasamune on the EG thread FHDH he's soo like you. You should bump him and spread misinformation together.
You can live in denial all you want. I called serious chemistry issues in this team months ago and was told I was full of it now it's the center of conversation.
Honestly I don't know how you guys analyze anything if you literally need someone inside to say to you "this is how it is" - which you then accept uncritically. Actually I do know how you analyze things: badly.
On August 08 2015 01:34 goody153 wrote: Classic fhdh treats his speculations into facts. The effort is futile guys i've seen the dude still treats his speculations as facts even though the truth is laid out by the actual people involved which claims the opposite but he still won't drop his beliefs.
You'd be a great pair withMasamune on the EG thread FHDH he's soo like you. You should bump him and spread misinformation together.
Oh god is this about the EE as the critical leader thing because fucking laffo if it is.
That's hardly what anyone is doing. The question isn't whether to accept uncritically something someone says, it's whether to take some bits and pieces of information, make your own conclusions based on those and then claim that you have the full picture and spread that to others.
I'm not talking about Secret having or not having chemistry issues, but rather how this ends up being Arteezy's fault and apparently his fault alone.
And whoever is claiming the whole thing is Artour's fault is wrong, as I said quite clearly. It doesn't mean he didn't contribute just because he mostly played well.
This is completely the whole squad fault, and if there were people to point out it'd be theeban (and cyborgmatt?) as they are the staff supposedly charged to prepare them for TI. Drafting issues like secret had incumb the whole squad and certainly not only the captain, or artour talking energically with kuro after a loss.
I wasn't talking about Secret's demise at TI being Arteezy's fault, but rather the speculation that he is a "rager" and that is why Secret ran into some internal issues (not made by you but someone earlier). I find that sort of discussion extremely speculative.
On August 07 2015 10:43 Bigtony wrote: The QOP pick two games in a row for S4 was incredibly weak and they never had a solution for storm spirit. :|
Really good point, and when I think about it I honestly felt like S4 on the QoP "Underperformed" threw out the entire tournament. But then again they have always given up the Lina pick.....and the one thing this tourny has taught is the Lina is to be feared. Possibly they felt forced to pickup the QoP so they couldn't have both Lina / QoP? The double BKB peirce is popular.
Well they did pick lina, 3 times, 2 against iG and one against vp (the first game) and then proceed to win all those games. And with a better drafting strategy, they could pick sf qop and have a lina on ppy if they really want to rely on those hero for RTZ and s4. s4's qop wasnt that bad, but vp know how to play around a qop and minimize it's impact so eventually it's less effective. Letting storm get so far in the draft, when it's your nemesis as you dont pick stuns, is really silly, even more when you ban anti mage. And again it's really weird when you see the draft they had when they won their first game against vp (3 stun + dark seer + a lot of aoe dmg)
I hope they stay together though, the next season with the majors is promicing a lot of quality tournaments (and probably lots of compendiums and $$ for the players). Zai might reconsider as they are still a strong squad beside some disappointments but did we ever saw a team playing 2 ti with no roster changes between ?
Na'vi TI3 and TI4 didn't have any roster changes.
Not trying to be flaming, but does anyone else think RTZ might be too raging to properly be on a winning team? When things are going well, he's one of the best carries in the world, but I'm scared for him turning out to be like a second, albeit vastly superior SingSing. Unlike Sing, teams are still going to flock to get him on his team. But I'm worried a bit if this becomes a recurring pattern. But then again this is dota, and it's still such an unrefined scene that bad breakups are the norm and pleasant, mutual separations are rare.
i doubt rtz raging is why there is an issue. from a psychological standpoint, raging results in poor play and both zai and artour kept secret in the game despite poor play from s4 (see: top where he blinks in to sonic wave and gets immediately blown up and is forced to buy back)
On August 07 2015 23:51 Mensol wrote: meh i was being too harsh to S4, he should stay. Secret should kick Arteezy no matter what, Zai is going to take a break anyway. They werent able to practice as team because of EG duo, Zai was just fucking around in scrims, and its not possible to practice in good mode when you have Arteezy in your team.
Just get EGM and Bulldog, put KuroKy on carry and you have better team than this one. At least they can scrim and improve.
where do you get this info from?
Your concept of a poor play is rather poor too. He got blown up because he had no BKB at that moment and Ppy didn't Grave him in time even tho he had the time and was in range, then he casted grave on Kky.
On August 08 2015 01:58 spudde123 wrote: I wasn't talking about Secret's demise at TI being Arteezy's fault, but rather the speculation that he is a "rager" and that is why Secret ran into some internal issues (not made by you but someone earlier). I find that sort of discussion extremely speculative.
Yes, it is definitely speculative to conclude that Artour raging is a regular occurrence, or even what happened in the booth.
By the way guys remember when I pointed out Arteezy walking out to game two two days ago way ahead of the team and I got some shitty snarky response to it? Next day we had the yelling? When certain individuals around the forum try to discredit me, remember shit like that.
On August 08 2015 01:58 spudde123 wrote: I wasn't talking about Secret's demise at TI being Arteezy's fault, but rather the speculation that he is a "rager" and that is why Secret ran into some internal issues (not made by you but someone earlier). I find that sort of discussion extremely speculative.
Yes, it is definitely speculative to conclude that Artour raging is a regular occurrence, or even what happened in the booth.
By the way guys remember when I pointed out Arteezy walking out to game two two days ago way ahead of the team and I got some shitty snarky response to it? Next day we had the yelling? When certain individuals around the forum try to discredit me, remember shit like that.
You are asking too much, they will always remember the wrongs.
Edit: Isn't it called selective memory or some shit?
Draft werent that bad , they won with them on regular bases , and they were in the meta most of the time , the team has NO leader and when things got a little rough (losing to EHOME) cracks began to break , i saw the POD CAM and for example after VP lost the first game , they looked like a beaten team for 1 sec but started to discuss and talk about the game and looked like a TEAM , while secret had RTZ rage on Kuro and the rest staring at the monitors , they dont seem like a team , just a bunch of very good players , you need to play through adversity to be great and they couldnt , because instead of having a leader to bring them together they had guys who broke them more apart , you can say what you want but they actually disbanded (if the twitter thing say anything) within several hours after the bad result.
EPT
