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On August 08 2015 02:05 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 01:58 spudde123 wrote:
I wasn't talking about Secret's demise at TI being Arteezy's fault, but rather the speculation that he is a "rager" and that is why Secret ran into some internal issues (not made by you but someone earlier). I find that sort of discussion extremely speculative. Yes, it is definitely speculative to conclude that Artour raging is a regular occurrence, or even what happened in the booth. By the way guys remember when I pointed out Arteezy walking out to game two two days ago way ahead of the team and I got some shitty snarky response to it? Next day we had the yelling? When certain individuals around the forum try to discredit me, remember shit like that.
I didnt come on liquid during secret games, but it definitely looked like they had a talk during the break (and even without seeing the pod video, the exit after game 1 suggested that artour was raging). They came back way more focus, and artour definitely looked more focus entering the stage before game 2. He admitted raging after game 1 in the post game itw. Well it's his weakness, so what? everyone seems to have one.
Zai seems like a discret guy, and that could be seen as his weakness too. In some secret loss, he was way to discreet having a very low impact on the game. It looks like he never step up into the draft, and that could cause some frustration in the team aswell. Maybe he thought it was better if he didnt step up during the draft so s4 would have an easier job.
But in the end does it matter ? I dont think it does, this squad went on a winning streak and were the best during 3 months (and the rest of the year they are close to the top). This is the same squad that went in TI. they could have won, but they didnt.. no one in the team was an obstacle to the TI title. They could have overcome their problem, it was hard, they didnt and it's the way sport is.
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Well I think it's important to distinguish between raging internally (something I think we know he does) and raging at your teammates, which is what's being speculated about here. I don't think he does the latter much.
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On August 07 2015 22:53 Faruko wrote:
Global silence goes through BKB, it was a damn hard game. I kinda agree on the crimsom guard, it let them fight
The way I see it, the whole team adapted to Arteezy having zero farm. Enigma went crimson guard to help him tank, and QoP went assault cuirass to further help him tank/dps. They made items to help him "carry" despite being 0/7 or something, and having basically PT and an ogre club at minute 20.
S4 crushed on game 2, so I'm not sure what people have been saying in the previous pages.
In the end, I do feel like VP played it extremely well. Not a flashy play, but extremely efficient, aggressive and focused. They were fucking relentless (that storm buyback despite a 20 sec (?) bloodstone cd), constant pressure. Crazy rosh attempts with drow. Always picking off value targets during skirmishes (S4 evaporating in 3 seconds, each fights, during game3). Imo, they really outdrafted and outplayed Secret. And made them look sloppy.
Well, maybe they are sloppy, too. I do not know behind the scene stuff.
Anyways, a pity, really.
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We do know how to analyse that isn't hard but we don't assume it's the truth cause you know it's just a speculation and we don't have sufficient and credible information to treat it as the truth. And we actually use little bits and pieces of information they present.
You know what's different of you FHDH when an information is laid out from the inside and it's opposite to what we speculated we don't disapprove and act like that information never existed. That's what you do. Like for example Mason said speculative statements and you also and you both said opposite things. Do you know who we believe in ? Obviously Mason. Why ? that's because he is more credible to give speculation than you do. And why is he more credible? Cause you don't actually know , know those people personally, talk and have seen what's inside of the team.
So obviously we would believe on who has more credibility so say statements of what things actually are rather the person who just speculates and actually don't have sufficient information or correct set of information to conclude that his speculation are facts.
It's very simple they are more credible to say those and you are not cause you not part of their community nor do you know shit about them outside what they decided to share on us and the little bits that you picked up from them.
Like come on dude do you even realize that what you do is similar to gossip. You spread thoughts and present them as facts even though you don't have enough relevant information to prove it and it's worse cause you say claim what people says from inside are lies if it's the opposite of what you say . It's like you don't even hear what you say.
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Like for example Mason said speculative statements and you also and you both said opposite things. Do you know who we believe in ? Obviously Mason.
I'm sorry what is this about? Why Fear returned instead of him? Do I need to laugh again?
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With all the passive-aggressive jabs you throw all the time on anything while acting like a clean individual like a very hypocritical person you have been i'm confident you have the ability to figure out what that it is.
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On August 08 2015 02:48 Murlox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 22:53 Faruko wrote:
Global silence goes through BKB, it was a damn hard game. I kinda agree on the crimsom guard, it let them fight The way I see it, the whole team adapted to Arteezy having zero farm. Enigma went crimson guard to help him tank, and QoP went assault cuirass to further help him tank/dps. They made items to help him "carry" despite being 0/7 or something, and having basically PT and an ogre club at minute 20. S4 crushed on game 2, so I'm not sure what people have been saying in the previous pages. In the end, I do feel like VP played it extremely well. Not a flashy play, but extremely efficient, aggressive and focused. They were fucking relentless (that storm buyback despite a 20 sec (?) bloodstone cd), constant pressure. Crazy rosh attempts with drow. Always picking off value targets during skirmishes (S4 evaporating in 3 seconds, each fights, during game3). Imo, they really outdrafted and outplayed Secret. And made them look sloppy. Well, maybe they are sloppy, too. I do not know behind the scene stuff. Anyways, a pity, really.
I mean, they kinda had to, QoP was very farmed, but its still a game with Earthshaker, Storm and Silencer, Secret WAS going to lose if they didnt try to bring rtz back, and at some point they kinda did (rtz had 12-13k farm about 2k below Silencer/Storm, and she farms like a madman) but VP finished nicely
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On August 08 2015 03:14 goody153 wrote:
With all the passive-aggressive jabs you throw all the on anything while acting like a clean individual even though you are very hypocritical so i'm confident you have the ability to figure out what that it.
I really don't know what you're talking about here. As far as the Mason thing, I'm just going to go ahead and laugh.
I was right, lots of people were right, you (apparently) and a few people were wrong. Laughably wrong.
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Hey i'm not the one who spreads gossip and acts like an asshole but claims to be the saint and thinks that people are assholes so i'm all good.
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On August 08 2015 03:18 goody153 wrote:
Hey i'm not the one who spreads gossip and acts like an asshole but claims to be the saint and thinks that people are assholes so i'm all good.
I act like a saint? And your definition of "spreading gossip" is pretty liberal.
And if C9 fans on this board don't want to be called assholes they can stop following me around the forum telling everyone how "everyone" knows I'm a dumb troll or what the fuck ever. If everyone thought that you wouldn't have to run around telling everyone, innit?
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On August 08 2015 03:14 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 02:48 Murlox wrote:On August 07 2015 22:53 Faruko wrote:
Global silence goes through BKB, it was a damn hard game. I kinda agree on the crimsom guard, it let them fight The way I see it, the whole team adapted to Arteezy having zero farm. Enigma went crimson guard to help him tank, and QoP went assault cuirass to further help him tank/dps. They made items to help him "carry" despite being 0/7 or something, and having basically PT and an ogre club at minute 20. S4 crushed on game 2, so I'm not sure what people have been saying in the previous pages. In the end, I do feel like VP played it extremely well. Not a flashy play, but extremely efficient, aggressive and focused. They were fucking relentless (that storm buyback despite a 20 sec (?) bloodstone cd), constant pressure. Crazy rosh attempts with drow. Always picking off value targets during skirmishes (S4 evaporating in 3 seconds, each fights, during game3). Imo, they really outdrafted and outplayed Secret. And made them look sloppy. Well, maybe they are sloppy, too. I do not know behind the scene stuff. Anyways, a pity, really. I mean, they kinda had to, QoP was very farmed, but its still a game with Earthshaker, Storm and Silencer, Secret WAS going to lose if they didnt try to bring rtz back, and at some point they kinda did (rtz had 12-13k farm about 2k below Silencer/Storm, and she farms like a madman) but VP finished nicely
RTZ had almost catch up to Silencer(I think the difference between the two was less than 1k; then VP faked a push and backed off after he activated his BKB. Less than 10 seconds after that, for some reason(sunk cost fallacy or something) RTZ decided to run straight down mid when it was obvious(or at least probable) VP was waiting high ground. VP jumped on him, Secret was forced into a bad team fight where they got wiped and from then on the game was lost.
s4 really, really fucked up on the last game with the stupid solo gank tries but that game wouldn't even happened if RTZ didn't fuck up during g2. So yeah, blaming the series loss on s4 is oversimplifying things a bit.
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Warning: Wall of text incoming!!!
I feel like we are speculating and shitting too much on individual players' fault. Dota is a team game and w/o knowledge of in-game calls , discussions, and each hero's responsibility in team fight. It is normally very hard to pin the blame on any one player. Like in american football, an interception can happen from either QB, WR , OL or even blocking TE or RB mistakes but people mostly put the blame on the QB anyway.
The real problem for Secret, IMHO, generally is not about individual play but they got scouted extensively by other teams. EHOME, VP and even IG seemed to know how they liked to move and also where they liked to ward. There are so many unsuccessful smoke ganks from Secret ( I did not have a hard data but it seems like most of their smoke are useless). Secret themselves even knew and RTZ admitted it in an interview after IG match that other teams, especially EHOME, seem to know their rotation and concept behind it. Even here on LD, we have an excellent article about their rotation and logic behind it. Other teams with smart captains that watch more replay of them should know even more about it. That leads to both the clearly outdraft and seemingly outplay in their games.
For the outdraft, look no further than both EHOME games, they even knew that they got heavily outdrafted (you can see from the time they used for their last pick, they almost ran out of time in both games). Analysts ( I believed Mad, Synd, and Blitz) also pointed that out on the spot. For the first game, I believe their mentality coming in was "we can't lose if our lanes are not entirely destroyed as in game 2 against Fanatic & LGD in the group stage" that is why they picked Bane and got heavily destroyed by last pick Phoenix. In game 2, the fourth picked TA and last pick NS destroyed their SF and AM core, Left without any initiation, they were forced into Axe (again analysts pointed out that they have to pick Axe). Axe NEED blink to be able to initiate and thus be useful but he can't get anything from lane because of Gyro + Rubick. So he had to Jungle which, in turn, left SF w'o any catch up routes (that is why s4's farm in that game is so bad, he cannot really use jungle because Axe and AM needed the farm more). Even in those games, Secret got themselves some chances to win but they almost had no margin for errors. Once things goes wrong, it is very hard to recover.
For the "outplay" (I put it in quote because I do not think it is "outplay" as people normally used), for example, in game 3 vs VP, the death of s4 on QoP at radiant safe lane where he just died mid. After that he immediately tp'ed bottom to gank Drow but got gusted and fissured and died again. Look at the replay, VP knew that he was coming all along since they have ward at the "slightly unusual" spot near dire T1 tower. Secret even had sentry in the lane which would dewrd any "normal" lane ward there. So from s4's persepective, VP shouldn't know that he was there. Other Secret's heroes were also showing in lane and he is the only hero who can gank w/o smoke anyway (before DS or rubick got Blink). So he failed, died and people called him out on that. But he was doomed to fail there just because the sentry did not see VP's observer.
You can also look at the enemy's visions in all their games even the one they won on the main stage. There are a lot of unusual ward spots that Secret never found/deward in time. You can play a no stun or 1 stun lineup when you believe that you can outplay anyone BUT you need good vision. That is why they struggle and let so many Storm came back from bad early game.
TLDR: Secret failed here because
1 Their plans, rotations and even ward/deward spots got figured out.
2 They are too cocky and believed (rightly still, IMHO) that they are more skilled than the opponents.
3 Their recent successes made them believe that their plans are still superior and noone really understands them.
4 They don't realize their problems until they lose to EHOME on the main stage which, by then, was too late.
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On August 08 2015 03:29 dmnum wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 03:14 Faruko wrote:On August 08 2015 02:48 Murlox wrote:On August 07 2015 22:53 Faruko wrote:
Global silence goes through BKB, it was a damn hard game. I kinda agree on the crimsom guard, it let them fight The way I see it, the whole team adapted to Arteezy having zero farm. Enigma went crimson guard to help him tank, and QoP went assault cuirass to further help him tank/dps. They made items to help him "carry" despite being 0/7 or something, and having basically PT and an ogre club at minute 20. S4 crushed on game 2, so I'm not sure what people have been saying in the previous pages. In the end, I do feel like VP played it extremely well. Not a flashy play, but extremely efficient, aggressive and focused. They were fucking relentless (that storm buyback despite a 20 sec (?) bloodstone cd), constant pressure. Crazy rosh attempts with drow. Always picking off value targets during skirmishes (S4 evaporating in 3 seconds, each fights, during game3). Imo, they really outdrafted and outplayed Secret. And made them look sloppy. Well, maybe they are sloppy, too. I do not know behind the scene stuff. Anyways, a pity, really. I mean, they kinda had to, QoP was very farmed, but its still a game with Earthshaker, Storm and Silencer, Secret WAS going to lose if they didnt try to bring rtz back, and at some point they kinda did (rtz had 12-13k farm about 2k below Silencer/Storm, and she farms like a madman) but VP finished nicely RTZ had almost catch up to Silencer(I think the difference between the two was less than 1k; then VP faked a push and backed off after he activated his BKB. Less than 10 seconds after that, for some reason(sunk cost fallacy or something) RTZ decided to run straight down mid when it was obvious(or at least probable) VP was waiting high ground. VP jumped on him, Secret was forced into a bad team fight where they got wiped and from then on the game was lost. s4 really, really fucked up on the last game with the stupid solo gank tries but that game wouldn't even happened if RTZ didn't fuck up during g2. So yeah, blaming the series loss on s4 is oversimplifying things a bit.
How many times did s4 died while solo ganking?
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On August 08 2015 03:43 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 03:29 dmnum wrote:On August 08 2015 03:14 Faruko wrote:On August 08 2015 02:48 Murlox wrote:On August 07 2015 22:53 Faruko wrote:
Global silence goes through BKB, it was a damn hard game. I kinda agree on the crimsom guard, it let them fight The way I see it, the whole team adapted to Arteezy having zero farm. Enigma went crimson guard to help him tank, and QoP went assault cuirass to further help him tank/dps. They made items to help him "carry" despite being 0/7 or something, and having basically PT and an ogre club at minute 20. S4 crushed on game 2, so I'm not sure what people have been saying in the previous pages. In the end, I do feel like VP played it extremely well. Not a flashy play, but extremely efficient, aggressive and focused. They were fucking relentless (that storm buyback despite a 20 sec (?) bloodstone cd), constant pressure. Crazy rosh attempts with drow. Always picking off value targets during skirmishes (S4 evaporating in 3 seconds, each fights, during game3). Imo, they really outdrafted and outplayed Secret. And made them look sloppy. Well, maybe they are sloppy, too. I do not know behind the scene stuff. Anyways, a pity, really. I mean, they kinda had to, QoP was very farmed, but its still a game with Earthshaker, Storm and Silencer, Secret WAS going to lose if they didnt try to bring rtz back, and at some point they kinda did (rtz had 12-13k farm about 2k below Silencer/Storm, and she farms like a madman) but VP finished nicely RTZ had almost catch up to Silencer(I think the difference between the two was less than 1k; then VP faked a push and backed off after he activated his BKB. Less than 10 seconds after that, for some reason(sunk cost fallacy or something) RTZ decided to run straight down mid when it was obvious(or at least probable) VP was waiting high ground. VP jumped on him, Secret was forced into a bad team fight where they got wiped and from then on the game was lost. s4 really, really fucked up on the last game with the stupid solo gank tries but that game wouldn't even happened if RTZ didn't fuck up during g2. So yeah, blaming the series loss on s4 is oversimplifying things a bit. How many times did s4 died while solo ganking?
As far as I remember, twice. But both were really, really stupid deaths, and similar too. He went bot to gank drow with ult, blinked forward, got stunned by shaker and lina and died.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 08 2015 03:29 dmnum wrote:
s4 really, really fucked up on the last game with the stupid solo gank tries but that game wouldn't even happened if RTZ didn't fuck up during g2. So yeah, blaming the series loss on s4 is oversimplifying things a bit.
The reasoning is that g2 is also s4's fault because of the draft.
Which is stupid reasoning, but it is what it is.
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On August 08 2015 04:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 03:29 dmnum wrote:
s4 really, really fucked up on the last game with the stupid solo gank tries but that game wouldn't even happened if RTZ didn't fuck up during g2. So yeah, blaming the series loss on s4 is oversimplifying things a bit. The reasoning is that g2 is also s4's fault because of the draft. Which is stupid reasoning, but it is what it is.
Yeah but RTZ was almost catching up to VP's cores and that would've given Secret a fighting chance, but then he walked down mid for absolutely no good reason. The creep wave was far away, VP either was too far out of reach or waiting to jump on him...I see no good reason for why he would do that. I thought Secret had a late game advantage if Luna managed to catch up. The draft wasn't the best, sure, but that doesn't excuse that play by RTZ.
Edit: I may have misread your post.
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reasons why they lost at TI:
- s4 underperformed immensly imo
- shittiest drafts ever, pickin Luna SF every fucking game, ignoring gyro, picking too little lategame or earlygame focused lineups without push
- bo3 too volitile
- they never felt like a REAL team.
I am hoping SO STRONGLY that secret will become something like
1 - KUROKY
2 - s4
3 - ?
4 - Notail
5 - Puppey (captain)
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On August 08 2015 05:04 KalWarkov wrote:
reasons why they lost at TI:
- s4 underperformed immensly imo
- shittiest drafts ever, pickin Luna SF every fucking game, ignoring gyro, picking too little lategame or earlygame focused lineups without push
- bo3 too volitile
- they never felt like a REAL team.
I am hoping SO STRONGLY that secret will become something like
1 - KUROKY
2 - s4
3 - ?
4 - Notail
5 - Puppey (captain)
If they bring BDN back, which I like, BDN will be 5. One of the reasons I disliked kuro staying in TS if they brought RTZ in is he's a garbage 5 if puppey gets a farming support game. When BDN was in they could much more regularly put puppey on a greedy support and BDN is a much more mindful 5 to do the dirty work than Kuro is.
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EPT
