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On June 10 2016 02:32 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 02:18 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 01:12 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 00:31 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 00:13 hariooo wrote:
PR speak is because normal companies have obligations to stakeholders like sponsors, not because they're inherently more noble. Just be happy for the fact that TS has the freedom to say what's really on their mind. Just like they did with w33 and Misery, RIGHT? Given that I'm talking about *how* TS says things, I'm not sure what you think w33 and misery have to do with this. It's fine to object to that particular shuffle but try and direct your outrage in a way that makes any sort of sense. On June 10 2016 00:41 emperorchampion wrote:
Except there are stakeholders other than sponsors that also have an interest in teams conducting themselves in a certain manner, like fans of the team and any other person with an interest in competitive dota, tournament organizers, other teams, etc. Especially in ESPORTS, where teams are small and change often. What is left to cheer for if all the players leave, you're not winning, and all you're left with is a history of shenanigans? It's fine to say "fuck the haters we do our own thing" if you're winning, but idk about otherwise. Fans have interests in a lot of things. If this is the deal breaker go cheer on some nondescript Chinese team with organized press releases. I'm fine where I am. Tournament organizers care about attendance and views. Drama supports both. As for Universe he was literally the worst player on the team and left his team in an awful situation. I expect him to go on unscathed because the community generally loves his public ally conflict free demeanor though. We are talking about how TS announced the departing of Universe, and you say they speak with freedom so I bring the w33/Misery affair where they kicked them and they saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise. You can be their fan but you have to be a bit less subjective, if they make Universe look like the bad guy they should do that to themselves when it is their turn. It makes sense if you don't brush a comment away because you don't wanna deal with it. I honestly don't understand what the hell you're trying to say. Just because TS has the ability to speak freely, they should be obligated to talk shit about *themselves*? What kind of insane logic are you trying to apply?
Yeah, you are that kind of guy. Really no point arguing with you.
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Team Secret, where All-star players unite, where the best of the best comes together and play as a team, and where the dramas happen, lots and lots of drama. Well, you can't unite more all-star players if they don't break apart. And for them to break apart, some dramas must happen. Maybe when we reach the end of TI10, Secrets story can be written into a Novel (Biolography of a legendary team) and become the best selling book. :D
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On June 10 2016 02:37 HighTimeDotA wrote:
what goes around comes around, life goes on. but now we have bulba we fucking lost.
bulba has been the best player on eg for the past 2 months. yes he has a reputation for being a choker and a high strung player but so did envy and pld before secret 3.0. the real concern is puppey looks completely lost in drafting for this roster with the current meta.
TS's best hope is that this strength oriented meta is patched out before TI quals, its completely antithetical to how envy and rtz like to play and it doesn't look like they've found a way to counter it
also it's completely anime for TS to bomb out on the biggest pre-TI tournament so they come in as underdogs before TI. and to be betrayed by one of their own just adds to it... :D
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On June 10 2016 02:39 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 02:32 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 02:18 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 01:12 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 00:31 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 00:13 hariooo wrote:
PR speak is because normal companies have obligations to stakeholders like sponsors, not because they're inherently more noble. Just be happy for the fact that TS has the freedom to say what's really on their mind. Just like they did with w33 and Misery, RIGHT? Given that I'm talking about *how* TS says things, I'm not sure what you think w33 and misery have to do with this. It's fine to object to that particular shuffle but try and direct your outrage in a way that makes any sort of sense. On June 10 2016 00:41 emperorchampion wrote:
Except there are stakeholders other than sponsors that also have an interest in teams conducting themselves in a certain manner, like fans of the team and any other person with an interest in competitive dota, tournament organizers, other teams, etc. Especially in ESPORTS, where teams are small and change often. What is left to cheer for if all the players leave, you're not winning, and all you're left with is a history of shenanigans? It's fine to say "fuck the haters we do our own thing" if you're winning, but idk about otherwise. Fans have interests in a lot of things. If this is the deal breaker go cheer on some nondescript Chinese team with organized press releases. I'm fine where I am. Tournament organizers care about attendance and views. Drama supports both. As for Universe he was literally the worst player on the team and left his team in an awful situation. I expect him to go on unscathed because the community generally loves his public ally conflict free demeanor though. We are talking about how TS announced the departing of Universe, and you say they speak with freedom so I bring the w33/Misery affair where they kicked them and they saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise. You can be their fan but you have to be a bit less subjective, if they make Universe look like the bad guy they should do that to themselves when it is their turn. It makes sense if you don't brush a comment away because you don't wanna deal with it. I honestly don't understand what the hell you're trying to say. Just because TS has the ability to speak freely, they should be obligated to talk shit about *themselves*? What kind of insane logic are you trying to apply? Yeah, you are that kind of guy. Really no point arguing with you.
I'm that guy trying to parse near nonsensical terms like "saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise". I am giving your statement the most logical interpretation I possibly can and I still come up with what is apparently an criticism of "when they released w33 and misery they didn't explicitly say they were assholes for doing so in their own press release", which is beyond comprehension. It's like the people who say dumb shit like "puppey is the one playing bad therefore the right decision is for him to kick himself".
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On June 10 2016 02:46 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 02:37 HighTimeDotA wrote:
what goes around comes around, life goes on. but now we have bulba we fucking lost. bulba has been the best player on eg for the past 2 months. yes he has a reputation for being a choker and a high strung player but so did envy and pld before secret 3.0. the real concern is puppey looks completely lost in drafting for this roster with the current meta. TS's best hope is that this strength oriented meta is patched out before TI quals, its completely antithetical to how envy and rtz like to play and it doesn't look like they've found a way to counter it also it's completely anime for TS to bomb out on the biggest pre-TI tournament so they come in as underdogs before TI. and to be betrayed by one of their own just adds to it... :D
he performed well for a bit cuz it was his first real shot at on a "tier 1" team, most people would. how many 2nds did envy and pld get at tournys and how many tournys have bulba attended?
i hope they can do well in the future, itd be a shame for our boy rtz aka the most talented nadota player to never win a major valve event.
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Universe was rarely the issue with Secret so Bulba aint fixing this mess thats for sure , I expect RTZ to go as well.
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On June 10 2016 02:54 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 02:39 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 02:32 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 02:18 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 01:12 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 00:31 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 00:13 hariooo wrote:
PR speak is because normal companies have obligations to stakeholders like sponsors, not because they're inherently more noble. Just be happy for the fact that TS has the freedom to say what's really on their mind. Just like they did with w33 and Misery, RIGHT? Given that I'm talking about *how* TS says things, I'm not sure what you think w33 and misery have to do with this. It's fine to object to that particular shuffle but try and direct your outrage in a way that makes any sort of sense. On June 10 2016 00:41 emperorchampion wrote:
Except there are stakeholders other than sponsors that also have an interest in teams conducting themselves in a certain manner, like fans of the team and any other person with an interest in competitive dota, tournament organizers, other teams, etc. Especially in ESPORTS, where teams are small and change often. What is left to cheer for if all the players leave, you're not winning, and all you're left with is a history of shenanigans? It's fine to say "fuck the haters we do our own thing" if you're winning, but idk about otherwise. Fans have interests in a lot of things. If this is the deal breaker go cheer on some nondescript Chinese team with organized press releases. I'm fine where I am. Tournament organizers care about attendance and views. Drama supports both. As for Universe he was literally the worst player on the team and left his team in an awful situation. I expect him to go on unscathed because the community generally loves his public ally conflict free demeanor though. We are talking about how TS announced the departing of Universe, and you say they speak with freedom so I bring the w33/Misery affair where they kicked them and they saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise. You can be their fan but you have to be a bit less subjective, if they make Universe look like the bad guy they should do that to themselves when it is their turn. It makes sense if you don't brush a comment away because you don't wanna deal with it. I honestly don't understand what the hell you're trying to say. Just because TS has the ability to speak freely, they should be obligated to talk shit about *themselves*? What kind of insane logic are you trying to apply? Yeah, you are that kind of guy. Really no point arguing with you. I'm that guy trying to parse near nonsensical terms like "saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise". I am giving your statement the most logical interpretation I possibly can and I still come up with what is apparently an criticism of "when they released w33 and misery they didn't explicitly say they were assholes for doing so in their own press release", which is beyond comprehension. It's like the people who say dumb shit like "puppey is the one playing bad therefore the right decision is for him to kick himself".
Dude, it is hypocrit and completely asshole-wise to express in a bad form something done by others that hurts you and play the good guy when you do it to others.
You could have just said: Yeah, they could have written it differently, there was no need to use that wording", but no you have to go and make a stand for something that it is actually bad manner and injustifiable, comprehensible maybe but no justifiable the way society teach our kids.
I just hope Secret qualifies to TI because if it were to not happen this would be a chain of comments on how Universe royaly assfcked Secret and how he deserves to burn in hell, even when they did the same to others.
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On June 09 2016 23:09 Dysisa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 23:04 DucK- wrote:
Abandoned...what a poor choice of word. PR disaster. I wouldn't be very willing to mince words either if I recruit someone and he seriously underperforms, only to then fuck off back to his original team right away. If you did what Universe has done here in any 'real' sport, you'd be very deservedly shunned as the worst kind of traitor by a whole lot of people.
No you woulden't, people are usually happy to get rid of people who underperform. Also it was not him underpforming it was a entire team underperforming.
Not to mention the way Secret does their business they have no right to complain. They can but only a imbecile would take it seriously.
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On June 10 2016 03:26 ddayzy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 23:09 Dysisa wrote:On June 09 2016 23:04 DucK- wrote:
Abandoned...what a poor choice of word. PR disaster. I wouldn't be very willing to mince words either if I recruit someone and he seriously underperforms, only to then fuck off back to his original team right away. If you did what Universe has done here in any 'real' sport, you'd be very deservedly shunned as the worst kind of traitor by a whole lot of people. No you woulden't, people are usually happy to get rid of people who underperform. Also it was not him underpforming it was a entire team underperforming. Not to mention the way Secret does their business they have no right to complain. They can but only a imbecile would take it seriously.
Actually when they usually complain is when an acomplished player (who became so in the team) leaves to another, like he should stay until the end of time. But yeah, almost every fan is relieved and grateful when an underperforming player leaves.
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On June 10 2016 03:19 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 02:54 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 02:39 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 02:32 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 02:18 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 01:12 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 00:31 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 00:13 hariooo wrote:
PR speak is because normal companies have obligations to stakeholders like sponsors, not because they're inherently more noble. Just be happy for the fact that TS has the freedom to say what's really on their mind. Just like they did with w33 and Misery, RIGHT? Given that I'm talking about *how* TS says things, I'm not sure what you think w33 and misery have to do with this. It's fine to object to that particular shuffle but try and direct your outrage in a way that makes any sort of sense. On June 10 2016 00:41 emperorchampion wrote:
Except there are stakeholders other than sponsors that also have an interest in teams conducting themselves in a certain manner, like fans of the team and any other person with an interest in competitive dota, tournament organizers, other teams, etc. Especially in ESPORTS, where teams are small and change often. What is left to cheer for if all the players leave, you're not winning, and all you're left with is a history of shenanigans? It's fine to say "fuck the haters we do our own thing" if you're winning, but idk about otherwise. Fans have interests in a lot of things. If this is the deal breaker go cheer on some nondescript Chinese team with organized press releases. I'm fine where I am. Tournament organizers care about attendance and views. Drama supports both. As for Universe he was literally the worst player on the team and left his team in an awful situation. I expect him to go on unscathed because the community generally loves his public ally conflict free demeanor though. We are talking about how TS announced the departing of Universe, and you say they speak with freedom so I bring the w33/Misery affair where they kicked them and they saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise. You can be their fan but you have to be a bit less subjective, if they make Universe look like the bad guy they should do that to themselves when it is their turn. It makes sense if you don't brush a comment away because you don't wanna deal with it. I honestly don't understand what the hell you're trying to say. Just because TS has the ability to speak freely, they should be obligated to talk shit about *themselves*? What kind of insane logic are you trying to apply? Yeah, you are that kind of guy. Really no point arguing with you. I'm that guy trying to parse near nonsensical terms like "saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise". I am giving your statement the most logical interpretation I possibly can and I still come up with what is apparently an criticism of "when they released w33 and misery they didn't explicitly say they were assholes for doing so in their own press release", which is beyond comprehension. It's like the people who say dumb shit like "puppey is the one playing bad therefore the right decision is for him to kick himself". Dude, it is hypocrit and completely asshole-wise to express in a bad form something done by others that hurts you and play the good guy when you do it to others. You could have just said: Yeah, they could have written it differently, there was no need to use that wording", but no you have to go and make a stand for something that it is actually bad manner and injustifiable, comprehensible maybe but no justifiable the way society teach our kids. I just hope Secret qualifies to TI because if it were to not happen this would be a chain of comments on how Universe royaly assfcked Secret and how he deserves to burn in hell, even when they did the same to others.
You're completely missing the point. I'm talking about how TS can afford to say whatever they want however they want. So if they say Universe abandoned TS when he sort of did, so what? That doesn't mean Universe isn't entitled to make the choice that's to his self-interest. The owner is just expressing how he feels. Meanwhile you're suggesting TS needs to post a laundry list of all the upsetting stuff they did to make it even. If someone cuts you off in traffic are you not allowed to react unless you turn yourself into the police every time you've ever blown past a stop sign?
And now we get to the source of why you're such a sanctimonious prick. You've just admitted that you're imagining that everyone who isn't incredibly offended by the use of "abandoned" must be some caricature of some stereotypical hater. So you can say whatever dumb shit you want to them because in your head they've already thought worse things about you.
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My English may be failing me but I don't really see "abandons" quite as meme worthy as some do. The guy could have chosen another word but that choice is hardly cause for big drama, it's not like the players are going out shaming Universe. I assume (or I hope) the Secret guys know that they have acted with similar interests in mind before and Universe is trying to do what's best for him. And tbh it may be best for both teams, Secret was that poor this far with the most recent lineup.
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On June 10 2016 03:46 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 03:19 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 02:54 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 02:39 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 02:32 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 02:18 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 01:12 hariooo wrote:On June 10 2016 00:31 Racket wrote:On June 10 2016 00:13 hariooo wrote:
PR speak is because normal companies have obligations to stakeholders like sponsors, not because they're inherently more noble. Just be happy for the fact that TS has the freedom to say what's really on their mind. Just like they did with w33 and Misery, RIGHT? Given that I'm talking about *how* TS says things, I'm not sure what you think w33 and misery have to do with this. It's fine to object to that particular shuffle but try and direct your outrage in a way that makes any sort of sense. On June 10 2016 00:41 emperorchampion wrote:
Except there are stakeholders other than sponsors that also have an interest in teams conducting themselves in a certain manner, like fans of the team and any other person with an interest in competitive dota, tournament organizers, other teams, etc. Especially in ESPORTS, where teams are small and change often. What is left to cheer for if all the players leave, you're not winning, and all you're left with is a history of shenanigans? It's fine to say "fuck the haters we do our own thing" if you're winning, but idk about otherwise. Fans have interests in a lot of things. If this is the deal breaker go cheer on some nondescript Chinese team with organized press releases. I'm fine where I am. Tournament organizers care about attendance and views. Drama supports both. As for Universe he was literally the worst player on the team and left his team in an awful situation. I expect him to go on unscathed because the community generally loves his public ally conflict free demeanor though. We are talking about how TS announced the departing of Universe, and you say they speak with freedom so I bring the w33/Misery affair where they kicked them and they saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise. You can be their fan but you have to be a bit less subjective, if they make Universe look like the bad guy they should do that to themselves when it is their turn. It makes sense if you don't brush a comment away because you don't wanna deal with it. I honestly don't understand what the hell you're trying to say. Just because TS has the ability to speak freely, they should be obligated to talk shit about *themselves*? What kind of insane logic are you trying to apply? Yeah, you are that kind of guy. Really no point arguing with you. I'm that guy trying to parse near nonsensical terms like "saved their freedom just because they would look bad otherwise". I am giving your statement the most logical interpretation I possibly can and I still come up with what is apparently an criticism of "when they released w33 and misery they didn't explicitly say they were assholes for doing so in their own press release", which is beyond comprehension. It's like the people who say dumb shit like "puppey is the one playing bad therefore the right decision is for him to kick himself". Dude, it is hypocrit and completely asshole-wise to express in a bad form something done by others that hurts you and play the good guy when you do it to others. You could have just said: Yeah, they could have written it differently, there was no need to use that wording", but no you have to go and make a stand for something that it is actually bad manner and injustifiable, comprehensible maybe but no justifiable the way society teach our kids. I just hope Secret qualifies to TI because if it were to not happen this would be a chain of comments on how Universe royaly assfcked Secret and how he deserves to burn in hell, even when they did the same to others. You're completely missing the point. I'm talking about how TS can afford to say whatever they want however they want. So if they say Universe abandoned TS when he sort of did, so what? That doesn't mean Universe isn't entitled to make the choice that's to his self-interest. The owner is just expressing how he feels. Meanwhile you're suggesting TS needs to post a laundry list of all the upsetting stuff they did to make it even. If someone cuts you off in traffic are you not allowed to react unless you turn yourself into the police every time you've ever blown past a stop sign? And now we get to the source of why you're such a sanctimonious prick. You've just admitted that you're imagining that everyone who isn't incredibly offended by the use of "abandoned" must be some caricature of some stereotypical hater. So you can say whatever dumb shit you want to them because in your head they've already thought worse things about you.
No, you are wrong. TS doesn't need to post any laundry.
I find their press release poor and mean. Intentionally letting slide bad blood and hate.
You are standing by them because you are their fan and you suffer the possible loss of a direct invite but you didn't do the same when they purposely took away w33 and Misery's direct invite.
It is not being offended it is being fair. They did the best for themselves with w33 an Misery and so did Universe, and so did RTZ countless times. Weighting it differently is hypocrit.
Edit: I am not imagining things and I am only answering to you if you didn't get it yet.
Edit2: Is completely ok not being offended, defending their modus operandi is not.
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Wait, now I have to cheer for Bulba?
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
You are standing by them because you are their fan and you suffer the possible loss of a direct invite but you didn't do the same when they purposely took away w33 and Misery's direct invite.
Direct Invite is very different from Invite to qualifiers. Making a roster change after the lock even precludes you from getting invited to qualifiers.
Pretty sure Secret was not expecting an invite to the main event after that performance. However it was reasonable to expect an invite to qualifiers had they not made any roster changes. Going through the BO1 marathon of open qualifiers is an entirely different beast when compared to going through qualifier invites. All it takes is an unlucky game lost to a Dazzle + Huskar cheese.
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On June 10 2016 03:19 Racket wrote:
I just hope Secret qualifies to TI because if it were to not happen this would be a chain of comments on how Universe royaly assfcked Secret and how he deserves to burn in hell, even when they did the same to others.
Perhaps there will be people like that, but I think that the majority realizes that the team is not working out, so changes were expected, its not like they were a strong team who was wining tournaments, so they really cant put this in the same basket as the Aui drama or the w33 and Misery drama. In this case, the change is on a positive note imo and I see absolutely no reason to blame Universe.
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Indeed, one can question why the teams changed in the first place but I don't really understand the high horses people are on in this situation. The teams, especially Secret, were not good compared to their competition. They didn't believe in their chances to do well, and especially in Secret's case history imo supports them, it isn't exactly common to have teams become good after being this poor in the start.
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I don't even see how any of this is drama worthy. Universe left with Arteezy for reasons unknown. The project goes down the toilet and the entire team play terribly. He want's back to his old team where he had success. His old team strugles with their new line up. His old team accepts him back.
Where exactly is the problem?
The only story I can find in all of this is that Secret gets a taste of their own medicine and learned that it tastes like shit.
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I think it's just this being another change with these teams while a lot of fans prefer stable 5 man lineups. Previously the changes have also happened in situations where the teams have been doing well: late 2014 Secret, EG and c9 were the 3 best western teams and ended up shuffling, EG won TI5 and changed a player, Secret seemed very strong before that event and completely disbanded, EG and Secret were top3 at Shanghai and changed players.
One can definitely question the validity of the players seemingly regularly thinking "we can do even better than this". This change is different though imo as this time the teams really were not working out, I think change was necessary and it may be the best for both teams.
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On June 10 2016 04:19 ddayzy wrote:
I don't even see how any of this is drama worthy. Universe left with Arteezy for reasons unknown. The project goes down the toilet and the entire team play terribly. He want's back to his old team where he had success. His old team strugles with their new line up. His old team accepts him back.
Where exactly is the problem?
The only story I can find in all of this is that Secret gets a taste of their own medicine and learned that it tastes like shit.
It's obviously big news since it involves two prolific teams. My beef with Universe is that he quit during the honeymoon phase without letting the team grow organically. This is something people would expect from rtz and the team hopping meme. Not Universe.
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On June 10 2016 04:32 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 04:19 ddayzy wrote:
I don't even see how any of this is drama worthy. Universe left with Arteezy for reasons unknown. The project goes down the toilet and the entire team play terribly. He want's back to his old team where he had success. His old team strugles with their new line up. His old team accepts him back.
Where exactly is the problem?
The only story I can find in all of this is that Secret gets a taste of their own medicine and learned that it tastes like shit. It's obviously big news since it involves two prolific teams. My beef with Universe is that he quit during the honeymoon phase without letting the team grow organically. This is something people would expect from rtz and the team hopping meme. Not Universe.
It was 2.5 months, and I would not exactly call it "honeymoon"
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EPT
