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On January 18 2015 01:37 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 22:33 Racket wrote:
I am not defending anyone. I just wanted to state that people tends to strengthen their opinion (usually off the mark in my eyes) based on two separated events, even if those events are related to the topic. Making statements of the caliber "Xboct sucks and always sucked" is the same as "Ppy never sucked he is not to blame". Both made mistakes, same with Dendi and Kuro and Funnik.
Time has passed, NaVi is not Ppy+Kuro+Funnik+Xboct+Dendi, we just need to stop comparing any rooster to its best rooster, its not the smartest thing to do. ZG would have been wise to boost Xboct a long time ago. That dude either does not practice much or simply is too far behind for other reasons. Puppy was unfortunately hit by the change of meta which is why his drafts sometimes were poor. But it's not like Dendi and others liked a meta of <20 minute games. Xboct has been feeding, throwing and making dubious plays for a really long time. Honestly, had Navi kept Kuro and Puppy and just booted Xboct (plus maybe Dendi if he really can't play without Xboct) and replaced him, the team would be in such a good position. Instead, ehh, everyone (Navi fans and probably officials, too) was like "yeah, just give them time". They're not at EG (when has EG thrown last) level but they will get there eventually. Glad Puppy and Kuro got out. Feel bad for Dendi and funn1k, the others I barely feel attached to.
Yep, same here. I hoped them to stay and Xboct to leave but oh well, what can we do?
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On January 17 2015 21:59 LemOn wrote:
sit seems obvious that it's about a good captain that can handle these guys
puppey was one
fng or goblak are not.
FNG before Navi - Solid
With Navi - A Joke
Post Navi - Great.
FNG wasn't the problem here. In some ways I want to say Goblak isn't either but I've been hating some of his drafts and player decisions that I'm fairly sure were was a strategic decision made by him as the captain. So I will say Goblak isn't doing himself or the team any favors with his metagaming.
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So there are some rumors that NaVi will kick someone soon according to a vague tweet from v1lat, and one from Vanskor:
Still nothing confirmed, but that wouldnt make any sense to me. He's probably the most consistent player on the current roster, and has been since TI4.
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I thought that tweet was a play on the name like "Born to Lose" or something but I don't know enough Latin to know what "Her" could be the beginning of.
Vanskor has been consistent but hardly an anchor of the team. That said, him being the one to kick makes no sense.
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Well to be fair no one has been an anchor of that team for a pretty long time anyway
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Lol fdfh changed his teamsig haha, hahahahaha
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On January 17 2015 22:00 NInoff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 19:38 Racket wrote:On January 17 2015 03:34 FHDH wrote:
Yeah so just got done watching the Empire games and lol.
I don't know why I ever believe this team might be turning a corner. Don't be mad, we all want to see some of them succeed but not all you want will happen. Well, I guess we can say the same for every CIS team at this point. Empire losing to NaVi at DAC, HR and PR getting eliminated right off the bat in SL11 (being them in the finals for DAC qualifier). Right now I feel like VP.P, Empire, HR and PR are all at the same level. Showing some badass performances here and sucking so bad there. Soo.... I don't know guys, if I were you I would not hop on the CIS rollercoaster this year and just enjoy Dota2 as much as you can without actually caring so much about who you cheer for. In my honest opinion, I didn't like EG because they were so emo and sad, NaVi is playing so bad with some sparks here and there, Fnatic is no more, C9 I don't know, I don't feel them so much, the other CIS teams I never cared a lot about. I began to enjoy TS because of Kuro and N0tail but after the rooster change I don't really appreciate them so much. So, I guess as much as I said, I will just enjoy N0tail's plays at C9, some chinese badass moves, and hope for Dendi and Funnik to get some love and find either better teammates or team. On January 17 2015 08:44 deadmau wrote:On January 17 2015 03:34 FHDH wrote:
Yeah so just got done watching the Empire games and lol.
I don't know why I ever believe this team might be turning a corner. the funny thing is you were the one who originally who held out hope that things were trending up for Na'Vi, and wanted to withhold judgement, when most people know they are clearly shit and have been for awhile. honestly i dunno how i can cheer for them without Puppey in there. He wasn't the star or anything, nothing crazy, but I felt like he embodied that team somewhat maybe due to him being the drafter/captain a lot. He was sort of their compass? Without someone to fill his shoes, and point them in a direction, just not fun to watch. Man, I don't know, Puppey was the face of NaVi for the successful period of time, as much as he was the face of failure, but not everyone wants to realize it. When you find your "favourite player" it is so hard to accept when he make mistakes and it is easier to blame other. When the meta changed and Ppy began to draft shit plus Xboct's feeding tendencies it is far easier to flame him instead of Ppy. But remember that even Ppy recognized his so called movements were off, so he is at least as guilty as the other 4 if not more (the weight of carrying his team to victory through draft is heavier than making magic happens by perfect execution with a losing composition). Xboct is the target for flame because he is the thrower and not Dendi the playmaker. Xboct is just polemic, think of it this way: As far as Dota's meta fit Xboct's playstyle he rocks and when not then he feeds, it is his playstyle, it is like expecting RTZ not to go emo after any stupid minimal thing, no sir that will never be so. After so much time we see Troll once again as a good carry and Xboct getting the best of him (just an exaggeration) and Dendi doing really good stuff on Magnus. Two games where they don't get any of those heroes and they play shit. Sometimes Puppey failed the team, but NaVi NEVER got humiliated. Now they feel the humiliation very very often. I mean Lets be honest, can you imagine NaVi getting stomped by MVP last year? Not to mention that this is going to be the first time for NaVi not getting the invite for TI, and it is not looking good for the qualifiers, i hope that they can get their things together.
To be fair, MVP isn't a bad team, especially considering they don't often get to face T1 competition. If they got to compete against European or Chinese teams more regularly I think they'd easily be a TI championship competitor.
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On January 18 2015 04:39 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 21:59 LemOn wrote:
sit seems obvious that it's about a good captain that can handle these guys
puppey was one
fng or goblak are not.
FNG before Navi - Solid With Navi - A Joke Post Navi - Great. FNG wasn't the problem here. In some ways I want to say Goblak isn't either but I've been hating some of his drafts and player decisions that I'm fairly sure were was a strategic decision made by him as the captain. So I will say Goblak isn't doing himself or the team any favors with his metagaming.
You are missing the point. It has nothing to do with actual play, and not that much with drafting. It's more about handling those individualities as people and making them work together. Sure Navi didnt practice much under puppey, but ingame they were reasonably coordinated even in the worst of times. It shows you even more how awesome Puppey was when the team work is in shambles under both fng and goblak as much as it is
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On January 18 2015 07:22 LemOn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 04:39 mutantmagnet wrote:On January 17 2015 21:59 LemOn wrote:
sit seems obvious that it's about a good captain that can handle these guys
puppey was one
fng or goblak are not.
FNG before Navi - Solid With Navi - A Joke Post Navi - Great. FNG wasn't the problem here. In some ways I want to say Goblak isn't either but I've been hating some of his drafts and player decisions that I'm fairly sure were was a strategic decision made by him as the captain. So I will say Goblak isn't doing himself or the team any favors with his metagaming. You are missing the point. It has nothing to do with actual play, and not that much with drafting. It's more about handling those individualities as people and making them work together. Sure Navi didnt practice much under puppey, but ingame they were reasonably coordinated even in the worst of times. It shows you even more how awesome Puppey was when the team work is in shambles under both fng and goblak as much as it is
I don't think the teamwork was as in shambles with Ppy as it is here... I believe it has gotten way worse and even Ppy could have not handled it if he were to change positions with any of those two.
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On January 18 2015 06:42 govie wrote:Lol fdfh changed his teamsig haha, hahahahaha
Been like that for weeks dude, you have very functional and working eyes.
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On January 18 2015 09:49 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 06:42 govie wrote:Lol fdfh changed his teamsig haha, hahahahaha Been like that for weeks dude, you have very functional and working eyes.
Dont worry, im planning to change my sig to NiP Because of the nice pockstrats they ran & there isnt much to cheer for in moon's team for months.
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United States13143 Posts
On January 18 2015 10:36 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 09:49 FHDH wrote:On January 18 2015 06:42 govie wrote:Lol fdfh changed his teamsig haha, hahahahaha Been like that for weeks dude, you have very functional and working eyes. Dont worry, im planning to change my sig to NiP Because of the nice pockstrats they ran & there isnt much to cheer for in moon's team for months.
First you need someone to make NiP flair.
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Na'Vi won't boot Dendi and it's basically him that the team is to be built around. People he likes and can work with. His market value is too high and his skill is still up there with the best of them. He just needs to know who to kick and who to keep.
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On January 18 2015 12:35 EnumaAvalon wrote:
Na'Vi won't boot Dendi and it's basically him that the team is to be built around. People he likes and can work with. His market value is too high and his skill is still up there with the best of them. He just needs to know who to kick and who to keep.
keep vanskor and probably funn1k
replace the rest i think (but that's not na'vi anymore lol)
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On January 18 2015 06:00 FHDH wrote:
I thought that tweet was a play on the name like "Born to Lose" or something but I don't know enough Latin to know what "Her" could be the beginning of.
Vanskor has been consistent but hardly an anchor of the team. That said, him being the one to kick makes no sense.
'Her' isn't beginning of anything in Latin lol, aren't you Russian yourself to know what 'naher' means, judging by the sig I thought you were.
Also, Na'Vi doesn't need to kick anyone now. What they need to do is stick with the roster for more than a couple months to actually gel together better. The thing about Na'Vi is they were always a team that had a lot of shortcomings, but made up for it through their teamfighting which was very much based on players having probably best in the world understanding of what the other guys on their team will do, which resulted in their fights always being highly coordinated. They made a lot of 'yolo' plays that ended up working very well simply because they usually knew when the others will back them up and just how far they can push it. That kind of synergy requires a lot of time to build up, and it's something they are lacking right now with all the reshuffling and new captaining. It is very obvious both in Xboct's and Funn1k's plays - half the time they make moves that end up being amazing, but then the other half they end up dying alone or whatever, not because they are stupid or something but because the followup isn't there even though it should have been. Likewise Dendi's play has been much less flashy and impressive lately, simply because to be flashy you usually need to have people backing you.
It's not something that can be solved by replacing people, and honestly it's not like anyone on Na'Vi right now is individually bad. Goblak isn't amazing mechanically but then again same can be said about Puppey, PPD, and many other successful captains. His drafts have been pretty good for the most part as well; majority of the ones that didn't work out were let down by execution rather than failing due to the draft itself being shit. Dendi and Funn1k are both as good as ever, Xboct's shape is better than it's ever been post TI3, and Vanskor is usually solid (aside from some uncomfortably stupid moments but again, those are almost certainly due to coordination / communication issues rather than him being randomly bad).
The losses to MVP and Empire were unfortunate, but what would be even more unfortunate is if they keep shuffling and pressuring the players. What Na'Vi needs to do is realize that they actually have a roster that has every bit of potential to be great, and stop worrying about whether they can win (or heck, whether they'll even get invited) to the upcoming TI or not - there will be another one next year, and the year after too. At this rate, another change in the team will probably end up leading to a disband, which would be a massive shame. That's what happens when everything in the pro scene is focused on one single tournament though, I guess...
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On January 18 2015 17:25 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 06:00 FHDH wrote:
I thought that tweet was a play on the name like "Born to Lose" or something but I don't know enough Latin to know what "Her" could be the beginning of.
Vanskor has been consistent but hardly an anchor of the team. That said, him being the one to kick makes no sense. 'Her' isn't beginning of anything in Latin lol, aren't you Russian yourself to know what 'naher' means, judging by the sig I thought you were. Also, Na'Vi doesn't need to kick anyone now. What they need to do is stick with the roster for more than a couple months to actually gel together better. The thing about Na'Vi is they were always a team that had a lot of shortcomings, but made up for it through their teamfighting which was very much based on players having probably best in the world understanding of what the other guys on their team will do, which resulted in their fights always being highly coordinated. They made a lot of 'yolo' plays that ended up working very well simply because they usually knew when the others will back them up and just how far they can push it. That kind of synergy requires a lot of time to build up, and it's something they are lacking right now with all the reshuffling and new captaining. It is very obvious both in Xboct's and Funn1k's plays - half the time they make moves that end up being amazing, but then the other half they end up dying alone or whatever, not because they are stupid or something but because the followup isn't there even though it should have been. Likewise Dendi's play has been much less flashy and impressive lately, simply because to be flashy you usually need to have people backing you. It's not something that can be solved by replacing people, and honestly it's not like anyone on Na'Vi right now is individually bad. Goblak isn't amazing mechanically but then again same can be said about Puppey, PPD, and many other successful captains. His drafts have been pretty good for the most part as well; majority of the ones that didn't work out were let down by execution rather than failing due to the draft itself being shit. Dendi and Funn1k are both as good as ever, Xboct's shape is better than it's ever been post TI3, and Vanskor is usually solid (aside from some uncomfortably stupid moments but again, those are almost certainly due to coordination / communication issues rather than him being randomly bad). The losses to MVP and Empire were unfortunate, but what would be even more unfortunate is if they keep shuffling and pressuring the players. What Na'Vi needs to do is realize that they actually have a roster that has every bit of potential to be great, and stop worrying about whether they can win (or heck, whether they'll even get invited) to the upcoming TI or not - there will be another one next year, and the year after too. At this rate, another change in the team will probably end up leading to a disband, which would be a massive shame. That's what happens when everything in the pro scene is focused on one single tournament though, I guess...
That's the problem with the current structure of tournaments. Everything leads to TI. ZG wants his team to go to TI because it's the biggest event. Not just in terms of winnings, but also of exposure. Sponsors want to sponsor a TI invited team because of this. I agree that this roster on paper can be good but the mindset of "reshuffling to get better" is hard to ignore when it has been a winning strategy for the past.
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On January 18 2015 17:25 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 06:00 FHDH wrote:
I thought that tweet was a play on the name like "Born to Lose" or something but I don't know enough Latin to know what "Her" could be the beginning of.
Vanskor has been consistent but hardly an anchor of the team. That said, him being the one to kick makes no sense. 'Her' isn't beginning of anything in Latin lol, aren't you Russian yourself to know what 'naher' means, judging by the sig I thought you were. Also, Na'Vi doesn't need to kick anyone now. What they need to do is stick with the roster for more than a couple months to actually gel together better. The thing about Na'Vi is they were always a team that had a lot of shortcomings, but made up for it through their teamfighting which was very much based on players having probably best in the world understanding of what the other guys on their team will do, which resulted in their fights always being highly coordinated. They made a lot of 'yolo' plays that ended up working very well simply because they usually knew when the others will back them up and just how far they can push it. That kind of synergy requires a lot of time to build up, and it's something they are lacking right now with all the reshuffling and new captaining. It is very obvious both in Xboct's and Funn1k's plays - half the time they make moves that end up being amazing, but then the other half they end up dying alone or whatever, not because they are stupid or something but because the followup isn't there even though it should have been. Likewise Dendi's play has been much less flashy and impressive lately, simply because to be flashy you usually need to have people backing you. It's not something that can be solved by replacing people, and honestly it's not like anyone on Na'Vi right now is individually bad. Goblak isn't amazing mechanically but then again same can be said about Puppey, PPD, and many other successful captains. His drafts have been pretty good for the most part as well; majority of the ones that didn't work out were let down by execution rather than failing due to the draft itself being shit. Dendi and Funn1k are both as good as ever, Xboct's shape is better than it's ever been post TI3, and Vanskor is usually solid (aside from some uncomfortably stupid moments but again, those are almost certainly due to coordination / communication issues rather than him being randomly bad). The losses to MVP and Empire were unfortunate, but what would be even more unfortunate is if they keep shuffling and pressuring the players. What Na'Vi needs to do is realize that they actually have a roster that has every bit of potential to be great, and stop worrying about whether they can win (or heck, whether they'll even get invited) to the upcoming TI or not - there will be another one next year, and the year after too. At this rate, another change in the team will probably end up leading to a disband, which would be a massive shame. That's what happens when everything in the pro scene is focused on one single tournament though, I guess...
Well, I dunno. When I look at the most successful western teams since before TI3 (when I started watching Dota), I don't see any team starting out really shaky and then suddenly being good after staying for months together.
nth (No Tidehunter), ex-Alliance, was successful from the get go, winning lots of minor-ish tourneys and then Dreamhack 2012 something like two months after their team was created. We know how that went afterwards, they had one change in the roster (EE out EGM in) but the core was still unchanged and super solid.
Secret Team was also super successful from the start. S A D B O Y S => EG is the same, winning The Summit less than half a year before getting formed.
The thing with Na'Vi these days is the team has had the same core since after TI4, and it clearly, clearly hasn't worked out, from the start. Every once in a while they have a really good set of games, but overall they look super shaky and make tons of dubious shit all over the place, as if no one is clearly calling the shots. I was genuinely hoping Goblak could be the right guy to fix this but the team looks even a bit worse than with Fng right now.
All in all I don't think just staying together and leaving the roster unchanged would do any good in the long run. They might get slightly better results over time, but even TI5 top-10 is completely unimaginable to me at this point. They need to make some drastic changes before DAC, though kicking Vanskor is probably the worst idea they could start with.
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It is time boys XBOCT Funn1k need to go.
Funn1k has been getting worse and worse hes not the stable guy he once was.
I think ti5 will be without Na'Vi .
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On January 18 2015 19:03 drusalnik wrote:
It is time boys XBOCT Funn1k need to go.
Funn1k has been getting worse and worse hes not the stable guy he once was.
I think ti5 will be without Na'Vi .
Qualifiers maybe but no direct invite. The first championship organization to not be invited directly? I hope not :'(
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On January 18 2015 20:20 EnumaAvalon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 19:03 drusalnik wrote:
It is time boys XBOCT Funn1k need to go.
Funn1k has been getting worse and worse hes not the stable guy he once was.
I think ti5 will be without Na'Vi . Qualifiers maybe but no direct invite. The first championship organization to not be invited directly? I hope not :'(
Just by the look of things qualifiers is gonna be rough.
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EPT
