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Personal attack = Ban.
Please behave |
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
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On October 10 2016 07:40 Nerfed wrote:
I was a huge ppy fan for like 10 years now. Things have changed now lol ppy can go and fuck himself, i have 0 respect left for him as well as 0 chance of building any. What the hell, guy, in effect, steals money from teammates and uses fighting as a last argument! Is this reality lol ?
I just really want to see players cooperate, make a real trade union and press and strike the shit out of organisations. Also, as it appears, players should sign some contracts and shit which describes what each party should do and all that technical stuff - i do believe players that they are not getting paid, but if they had a legit contract they could use legal instruments to secure their money, not turn to the public support every time.
I really think it's time for professional players to stand together against all that shit and also for us, casual players and viewers, to support them and send our fucks to shady orgs and teams.
All in all i see no point in denying credibility to EE's or Misery's blogs since they correspond to everything we know and EE's blog provides us with a lot of info. I wanna praise EE for him coming out with all of hes blogs during the recent years, he's the hero.
P.S. To me it seems that Kemal guy is def laundrying the moneyz
Contracts and unions only work in theory right now. The only way you get a union to work is if everyone is represented. There needs to be a caster's union, a player's union, a team org union, and a tourney org union. You can never have 1 without all of the rest because everyone else is going to get screwed. Then when you consider that an given esport game only has a very finite lifespan things get super messy. It's not like MLB or the NFL where the sport is cemented in stone and the teams have been around forever and aren't going to fold in 5 years. There's so many moving parts in even just the DotA 2 ecosystem. As long as all sides don't have their own strong, fair, equal representation no one does. It's been proven over and over if anyone can get the upper hand in esports (and pretty much anything in life) they're going to take advantage of it and screw everyone under them over.
Esports contracts are a pain in the ass to enforce. The cost to take someone to court is prohibitive. A player doesn't make enough money to take a team org to court which means a contract can really only hurt him. No team wants to be the bad guy and take some player to court and have the community shit on them. As such no one enforces anything because its just not feasible. On top of that going to court with a Turkish company like Secret when you're a Canadian like EE is, forget about that. International court cases cost an assload of money. He could never do it in his wildest dreams.
So unfortunately things are currently at a stalemate.
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On October 10 2016 08:28 common_cider wrote:
EG.int roster
1. Fear
2. Midone
3. Forev
4. PLD
5. PPD
Fear retired and PPD is on a break lol
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On October 10 2016 08:04 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote:
I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago. To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out. If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not.
The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training?
I guess it's officially team scamcret now?
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On October 10 2016 08:46 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:04 Asjo wrote:On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote:
I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago. To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out. If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away. There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not. The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training? I guess it's officially team scamcret now?
Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid
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On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts.
You do understand that that is exactly what Secret tried to be but somehow they managed to fuck it up. Kemal joined like 6 months after Secret was formed and i remember it was supposed to be his little project that he wasn't taking any money from them and only giving but it was all a ruse it seems.
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On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot.
Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was.
Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before.
From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment.
It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1.
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On October 10 2016 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:46 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 08:04 Asjo wrote:On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote:
I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago. To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out. If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away. There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not. The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training? I guess it's officially team scamcret now? Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid
True. People just somehow assumed that they got better after the first time.
Btw "I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "Where's my money?". Guess Kemal was honest in some ways.
Edit @OuchyDathurts: Nvm, I'm unable to read. You already mentioned the manager.
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On October 10 2016 08:55 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money. It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Yeah exactly. EE already was in contact with tournament organisers about payment to the secret team so he had info to confront puppey and kemal with, might as well just handle the full payment himself instead.
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On October 10 2016 08:57 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:On October 10 2016 08:46 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 08:04 Asjo wrote:On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote:
I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago. To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out. If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away. There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not. The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training? I guess it's officially team scamcret now? Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid True. Btw spamming "I can't answer right now, I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "When am I getting paid?". At least if you are Marie Antoinette. Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:55 OuchyDathurts wrote:On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money. The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot. Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was. Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before. From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment. It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right. Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1. One guy still has to deal with all the stuff in the background, so involving a manager definitely makes sense. Most pros are mainly thinking about Dota. That's likely the #1 reason these players stayed for so long.
Yeah of course. After the 5 business partners get it incorporated. Get the companies framework figured out. Then you hire a person. An actual professional not a friend, not a hanger on, not a leach. You hire a legitimate corporate professional to take care of things. Someone who has to report to the 5 bosses, they're an employee. When Arteezy asks "Hey, how's that Yeezy sponsorship coming?" they can't reply "I'm working on it don't worry" they've gotta actually give him dates and facts and figures. All this behind closed doors backwards "you just worry about dota man" shadiness is exactly the problem. No no no, I'm your boss, you tell me right now.
It takes 5 pros who actually have a vested interest in being players and being business men. 5 pros who want to take life by the balls and possibly grow an empire. Turns out secret was some real kindergartener amateur shit. None of these things would fly in an actual big boy company or heads would roll.
And again having someone like Kemal is the same as having a hanger on. He's a tumor. He can do nothing but ruin your brand, he can never ever benefit you. But because he's fabulously rich they let him play with them and run business. The problem is he's the sugar daddy so you have to blow him and keep on his good side. That is so unbelievably awful for business, it's actually playing with a loaded gun.
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Puppey seems like a massive douche bag in that story.
It's no wonder Secret was so fucking awful at TI as well. Their drafts were a mess and this is pretty good explanation for why.
Feel bad for the the rest of Secret. Horrible timing for all this shit to go down. They're getting the shaft big time.
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I really don't give a shit about the rest but can someone please elaborate on this bit:
"Oh shit I just realized, Secret bought like drones, hired a porn star, and a few models during TI"
?
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On October 10 2016 09:15 nayumi wrote:
I really don't give a shit about the rest but can someone please elaborate on this bit:
"Oh shit I just realized, Secret bought like drones, hired a porn star, and a few models during TI"
?
The entire point of the story seemed to be more or less that Puppey and Kemal were BFF's and using Team Secret as their own personal slush fund.
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On October 10 2016 08:44 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:28 common_cider wrote:
EG.int roster
1. Fear
2. Midone
3. Forev
4. PLD
5. PPD Fear retired and PPD is on a break lol
Fear comes out of retirement for 1 tourney, and PPD ends his break. Solved
Edit: Fear is actually a coach. I think he can play 2 or 3 tournaments a year. Wouldn't be too dmeanding
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On October 10 2016 09:08 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:57 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:On October 10 2016 08:46 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 08:04 Asjo wrote:On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote:
I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago. To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out. If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away. There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not. The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training? I guess it's officially team scamcret now? Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid True. Btw spamming "I can't answer right now, I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "When am I getting paid?". At least if you are Marie Antoinette. On October 10 2016 08:55 OuchyDathurts wrote:On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money. The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot. Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was. Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before. From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment. It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right. Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1. One guy still has to deal with all the stuff in the background, so involving a manager definitely makes sense. Most pros are mainly thinking about Dota. That's likely the #1 reason these players stayed for so long. Yeah of course. After the 5 business partners get it incorporated. Get the companies framework figured out. Then you hire a person. An actual professional not a friend, not a hanger on, not a leach. You hire a legitimate corporate professional to take care of things. Someone who has to report to the 5 bosses, they're an employee. When Arteezy asks "Hey, how's that Yeezy sponsorship coming?" they can't reply "I'm working on it don't worry" they've gotta actually give him dates and facts and figures. All this behind closed doors backwards "you just worry about dota man" shadiness is exactly the problem. No no no, I'm your boss, you tell me right now. It takes 5 pros who actually have a vested interest in being players and being business men. 5 pros who want to take life by the balls and possibly grow an empire. Turns out secret was some real kindergartener amateur shit. None of these things would fly in an actual big boy company or heads would roll.
RTZ the businessman 
I'm surprised you consider secret kindergartener amateur tbh. I would be surprised if it was just incompetence.
Sure, Matt's inability to open an account at the beginning might be.
But all the stuff like the 10% cuts, breaking promises all the time while lowering the promised sums, the immense delays, Kemal's permanent inaccessibility and Puppey's permanent annoyance whenever that topic appears smell like intentional scamming tbh.
I'm not 100% sure Puppey is part of it or just arrogant and quick to anger (and frustrated because Kemal keeps him away from the money as well), but there is a good chance that he is the only player who gets paid regularly for keeping the other guys "trusting".
Hell they can organize meeting a porn star in a foreign country as well as single rooms for everyone, but not money transfers to their employees?
I agree to the rest though!
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On October 10 2016 09:15 nayumi wrote:
I really don't give a shit about the rest but can someone please elaborate on this bit:
"Oh shit I just realized, Secret bought like drones, hired a porn star, and a few models during TI"
?
Not much to elaborate on. Apparently they brought a pornstar to TI because........no one knows why anyone would think that's a good idea actually. My guess is Kemal the idiot man child decided that in his tiny child mind paying for a porn star to attend was somehow good for brand image.
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On October 10 2016 09:18 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 09:15 nayumi wrote:
I really don't give a shit about the rest but can someone please elaborate on this bit:
"Oh shit I just realized, Secret bought like drones, hired a porn star, and a few models during TI"
?
Not much to elaborate on. Apparently they brought a pornstar to TI because........no one knows why anyone would think that's a good idea actually. My guess is Kemal the idiot man child decided that in his tiny child mind paying for a porn star to attend was somehow good for brand image.
So those poor Secret players never got to bang a porn star?
God this is madness. Secret and Puppey are such jerks!
edit:
In all seriousness, all of these are not fully unexpected, and are bound to happen in a young industry like Dota. Players are often of very young age, and there's just so much money involved. Most of the times you wouldn't think of getting a lawyer to make sure you were not exposed, simply because there was no guarantee of success in the field. I'm curious to see how the other side would respond to all of this, and how the current Secret will function now that the cat is out of the bag.
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Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
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On October 10 2016 09:18 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 09:08 OuchyDathurts wrote:On October 10 2016 08:57 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:On October 10 2016 08:46 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 08:04 Asjo wrote:On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote:
I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago. To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out. If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away. There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not. The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training? I guess it's officially team scamcret now? Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid True. Btw spamming "I can't answer right now, I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "When am I getting paid?". At least if you are Marie Antoinette. On October 10 2016 08:55 OuchyDathurts wrote:On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money. The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot. Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was. Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before. From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment. It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right. Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1. One guy still has to deal with all the stuff in the background, so involving a manager definitely makes sense. Most pros are mainly thinking about Dota. That's likely the #1 reason these players stayed for so long. Yeah of course. After the 5 business partners get it incorporated. Get the companies framework figured out. Then you hire a person. An actual professional not a friend, not a hanger on, not a leach. You hire a legitimate corporate professional to take care of things. Someone who has to report to the 5 bosses, they're an employee. When Arteezy asks "Hey, how's that Yeezy sponsorship coming?" they can't reply "I'm working on it don't worry" they've gotta actually give him dates and facts and figures. All this behind closed doors backwards "you just worry about dota man" shadiness is exactly the problem. No no no, I'm your boss, you tell me right now. It takes 5 pros who actually have a vested interest in being players and being business men. 5 pros who want to take life by the balls and possibly grow an empire. Turns out secret was some real kindergartener amateur shit. None of these things would fly in an actual big boy company or heads would roll. RTZ the businessman I'm surprised you consider secret kindergartener amateur tbh. I would be surprised if it was just incompetence. I mean sure, Matt's inability to open an account at the beginning might be. But all the stuff like the 10% cuts, breaking promises all the time while lowering the promised sums, the immense delays, Kemal's permanent inaccessibility and Puppey's permanent annoyance whenever that topic appears smell like intentional scamming tbh. I'm not 100% sure Puppey is part of it or just arrogant and quick to anger (and angry because Kemal keeps him away from the money as well), but there is a good chance that he is the only player who gets paid regularly for keeping the other guys "trusting". I agree to the rest though!
Theres SS's of 1437 and Puppey talking where Puppey said matt is getting fired as a manager and put on something more his speed. Since he's a nice guy and he's a technical dude, just managing isn't his thing. So yeah Matt screwed up, but he was never qualified for the job in the first place. Which is my problem with so many esports teams. Just hiring a buddy to do a job. You wouldn't hire your BFF to be your lawyer just because he's your friend right? People need to take this seriously. You need an actual certified accountant, you need a real actual bonified lawyer, this isn't a kids club. You can't just hire friends and girlfriends, that's how actual businesses go out of business. I started a restaurant and hired the neighbor kid as a chef because he's a sweet kid. Then everybody got food poisoning and long story short I don't a restaurant anymore lol. It's just amateur hour man.
I certainly wouldn't say scam from the get go is out of the question. That's the problem with it not being a 5 way business partnership between players. Its Kemal and Puppey and everyone else can go to hell. That's not how you do this whole thing. It was doomed to fail from the jump. The options are kindergarten amateur disaster business or a scam really.
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote:
Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
You're completely right IMO.
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On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote:
Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd.
Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful. He's not likely scamming people and threatening them with violence though afaik.
Which is why it's such a shame he's taking a break 
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EPT
