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Personal attack = Ban.
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On October 10 2016 09:31 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote:
Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways. Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful.
It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
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On October 10 2016 09:35 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 09:31 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote:
Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways. Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful. It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
Yeah I don't doubt that it's not that easy. There's a difference between coach and ingame leader though. A coach doesn't need to be as strict as a leader imo.
PPD tried to change his style of leadership during the RTZ time but got negative receptions for it from Bulba, as well as having bad blood with RTZ nowadays. So there's a good chance that RTZ is one of those who don't respond well to dictatorship.
In the end it's always about finding the right balance I think.
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Just gonna say that I always knew it was Puppey bringing the team down all along with his sloppy lazy play. More importantly Envy's ballsack is too fucking huge oh my god Jacky is the hero we don't deserve.
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On October 10 2016 09:44 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 09:35 OuchyDathurts wrote:On October 10 2016 09:31 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote:
Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways. Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful. It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders. Yeah I don't doubt that it's not that easy. There's a difference between coach and ingame leader though. A coach doesn't need to be as strict as a leader imo. PPD tried to change his style of leadership during the RTZ time but got negative receptions for it from Bulba, as well as having a bad relation to RTZ nowadays. So there's a good chance that RTZ is one of those who don't respond well to dictatorship at all. In the end it's always about finding the right balance I think.
Yeah I know PPD said that the team told him they want the old asshole PPD dictator back. I guess its what worked for them.
A sports coach is pretty comparative to a dota captain IMO. Yes they're not playing in the game but they're the mastermind to everything that's happening in the game. A coach draws up all the plays and dictates everything from the sideline. There is no sideline in DotA so all the plays and actions get drawn up by the in game captain. But they're both essentially the generals of the team in their respective sports with very few exceptions. Some of the absolute great QBs like Peyton Manning in Brett Favre did pick the plays on their own because they were so obscenely good, but they're the exception to the rule. On most teams you do what the big man on the sideline tells you.
There's super strict coaches, they're just a dying breed. Belichick, Parcells, Bobby Knight, etc. Some coaches were really awful awful people, like evil abusive but they made a hell of a ball coach! Kids these days don't like being yelled at and having chairs thrown at them by and large though. They want to be treated as members of the team and equals, which there's nothing necessarily wrong with. Whatever gets you the W.
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Johto4981 Posts
Added links to Miserys blog to the OP as well as two more archive links to EEs blog since the first one is bad and the page is still down.
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I still can't get over the fact that Secret got 0 paying sponsors while EE got the only paying deal on his own merit while 'focusing totally on dota' . He's getting flamed for not being interested in the buisiness side. And then Puppey fucks up the deal by not streaming. It's hilarious. And sad.
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Ok Envy just destroyed Puppey OMFG... i always was a big fan of puppey but somehow he always seemed shady.. now i know why....
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
On October 10 2016 08:43 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 07:40 Nerfed wrote:
I was a huge ppy fan for like 10 years now. Things have changed now lol ppy can go and fuck himself, i have 0 respect left for him as well as 0 chance of building any. What the hell, guy, in effect, steals money from teammates and uses fighting as a last argument! Is this reality lol ?
I just really want to see players cooperate, make a real trade union and press and strike the shit out of organisations. Also, as it appears, players should sign some contracts and shit which describes what each party should do and all that technical stuff - i do believe players that they are not getting paid, but if they had a legit contract they could use legal instruments to secure their money, not turn to the public support every time.
I really think it's time for professional players to stand together against all that shit and also for us, casual players and viewers, to support them and send our fucks to shady orgs and teams.
All in all i see no point in denying credibility to EE's or Misery's blogs since they correspond to everything we know and EE's blog provides us with a lot of info. I wanna praise EE for him coming out with all of hes blogs during the recent years, he's the hero.
P.S. To me it seems that Kemal guy is def laundrying the moneyz Contracts and unions only work in theory right now. The only way you get a union to work is if everyone is represented. There needs to be a caster's union, a player's union, a team org union, and a tourney org union. You can never have 1 without all of the rest because everyone else is going to get screwed. Then when you consider that an given esport game only has a very finite lifespan things get super messy. It's not like MLB or the NFL where the sport is cemented in stone and the teams have been around forever and aren't going to fold in 5 years. There's so many moving parts in even just the DotA 2 ecosystem. As long as all sides don't have their own strong, fair, equal representation no one does. It's been proven over and over if anyone can get the upper hand in esports (and pretty much anything in life) they're going to take advantage of it and screw everyone under them over. Esports contracts are a pain in the ass to enforce. The cost to take someone to court is prohibitive. A player doesn't make enough money to take a team org to court which means a contract can really only hurt him. No team wants to be the bad guy and take some player to court and have the community shit on them. As such no one enforces anything because its just not feasible. On top of that going to court with a Turkish company like Secret when you're a Canadian like EE is, forget about that. International court cases cost an assload of money. He could never do it in his wildest dreams. So unfortunately things are currently at a stalemate.
I agree with you on the assesment of the current state of the situation - unions are hard to build, everybody tries to abuse each other when given a possibility etc. I just want to stress out that if players don't cooperate the situation will not get better. They have to take initiative and protect their own interests. Also it worth noting that players have the most backing by the public than anybody else involved.
On October 10 2016 08:55 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money. The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot. Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was. Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before. From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment. It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right. Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1.
i could like sign under all of those words lol player-run org :sarcasm:
they should advertise like
"Secret - by players for Kemal and Puppey"
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United States15275 Posts
On October 10 2016 09:35 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 09:31 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote:
Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways. Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful. It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
I never got the impression that PPD was the "explode at you if you don't execute the play" type of captain. From his demeanor and philosophy, he seems more like a Gregg Popovich type.
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On October 10 2016 10:25 Nakama wrote:
Ok Envy just destroyed Puppey OMFG... i always was a big fan of puppey but somehow he always seemed shady.. now i know why....
Yea, he's not slim though. AHEM.
On topic: Team disbanded/dissapointed due to shady payments is a bit....heavy. I don't know how Puppey and Kemal can recover from this.
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sweet sweet drama. curious though, can secret/ppy/kemal sue EE for anything?
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fly shouldve argued with puppey. I wonder what wouldve happened then :D
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Ppy behavior aside, never like the guy anyways and none of this comes as a surprise to me since hints of that could be seen ever since he left NaVi (lots of those incidents all resurfaced on reddit now), I still cant believe that in this age of multi million dollar business that Dota has become, players dont find it alarming to play for an organization with simple oral agreements.
Perhaps they were mesmerized by Puppey/Kemal combo: one being a very successful dota player and the other a rich guy, who knows. What I do know though is that there is no excuse for entering a deal without being legally covered. I sympathize with all ex secret players/staff who have been wronged and financially/emotionally damaged, but these guys arent kids anymore and need to think a bit more maturely when signing, or in this case, not signing with organizations.
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"Puppey and I meet up in a venue suite, he tells me that we should stay friends"
this is kinda gay isn't it
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Honestly, getting drunk, going out with Kemal and keep arriving late when practicing are the most unexpected habits that one can imagine coming out from the legend Puppey himself. He's supposed to be the owner and the captain of the team, maybe he's influenced by Kemal and they decided to fucking make the team their personal slush fund.
People usually don't care for one's temper, as long as you can prevent it from affecting your surroundings. Not in Puppey's case though.
I am actually speechless now, as an avid fan of TS from DAC, I lost every respect I have toward TS and Puppey.
Wonder if there's any news that can shock me anymore.
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On October 10 2016 10:46 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 09:35 OuchyDathurts wrote:On October 10 2016 09:31 Archeon wrote:On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote:
Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways. Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful. It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders. I never got the impression that PPD was the "explode at you if you don't execute the play" type of captain. From his demeanor and philosophy, he seems more like a Gregg Popovich type.
Explode maybe not, though I'm sure he's more than capable of it. But when EG was winning he was squarely in charge of everything. He talked about it on the HotPants podcast I do believe. How he was an asshole and he decided to try and be nicer and the team went into the tank. Then when they reformed everyone said we want the old asshole peter back. He might be a dick, but he's a dick that knows how to win.
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Ya know... For all this shit the thing that gets me the most is Puppey dropping the n- word on Envy.
Like... Fine. I get that the majority of people are pretty ignorant about racism. But looking at that ignorance coming from a passive aggressive Ukrainian white boy...
Just really rubs me the wrong way.
Whatever. Never cared that much for Secret anyway.
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On October 10 2016 11:37 adzzlie wrote:
Honestly, getting drunk, going out with Kemal and keep arriving late when practicing are the most unexpected habits that one can imagine coming out from the legend Puppey himself. He's supposed to be the owner and the captain of the team, maybe he's influenced by Kemal and they decided to fucking make the team their personal slush fund.
People usually don't care for one's temper, as long as you can prevent it from affecting your surroundings. Not in Puppey's case though.
I am actually speechless now, as an avid fan of TS from DAC, I lost every respect I have toward TS and Puppey.
Wonder if there's any news that can shock me anymore.
not enough to change ur flair tho XD
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EPT
