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On November 26 2013 02:14 andrewlt wrote:
I don't think you understand where I am coming from. The endgame for the vast majority of people in D3 is the same as the endgame in D2, play until the rate of leveling and getting item upgrades slows down to a point that you don't want to go on.
What D2 has is not more freedom, but more grinding. You just happen to like the grinding that game has. It's something that the most hardcore D2 fans share but not something that a majority of the player base for both games share. D3 allows more experimentation of builds. It's just that it doesn't waste your time whenever you want to experiment. And again, the people who loved D2's style loved grinding new characters, something that we don't all share. I only created one character per class in D2. I would have loved to try new skills but I didn't like the grind.
I dont know who you played D2 with, but I knew literally hundreds of players over the years in game, d2jsp and other forums and what you described was not true for single one of them. ROFL, people werent complaining about lack of endgame in D2 after 10 years, while in D3 they started complainining after 10 weeks - so your theory that its the same and nothing has changed kinda doesnt make sense... Anyway, we obviously played and understood D2 on totally different level, so no point talking here.
I will add this though: what you say about builds is very superficial. D3 allows you to change skills, but its stupid to call that new build, since it all has exactly same gameplay.
D2 had many different builds for each class, each with totally different skills, items, stats focus and gameplay. There was huge difference between playing jawazon or bowazon, not just with skills, but also items and gameplay. Same with elemental druid, or melee druid... And all other classes. Every class had at least 2-3 major builds and many minor modifications.
D3 does not offer that. You can change skill, but gameplay and items remains pretty much same. There is like 7 semi-builds (all with same items) across all classes in D3.
So while they made D3 more friendly in terms of leveling (which is obviously good) at the same time they removed all depth due to how insignificant skill changes are for gameplay (except maybe archon vs CC wiz) and how retarded itemization is.
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D2 had so many builds because you could clear the whole game without items. most classes in D3 have 2-3 builds its just that 1 is often the best something which the internet manage to figure out alot quicker then when D2 was around. And regards to how many people you met, you me the people ingame which played like you. I know alot of people who never finished hell yet find the game good, same with D3 most of my friends like D3 thats why we keep playing it.
Taking barb for example, best farming build is whirlwind. Against bosses the highest damage build is hota without a fury generator for that you need a soj, weapon throw can be played to great efficency with a three hundread spear and a soj and they are working on making more legenderies change how you play. Now they added affixes so that you cant get everything on every piece chosing what you want becomes more important (cm/ww want crit and attack speed, earthquke barb want cooldown reduction and raw damage). So they are working on it
For end game and leveling you can always say that it ends when you max out the three none core paragon tabs (800paragon), which should take awhile for most of the normal people
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On November 26 2013 03:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 02:14 andrewlt wrote:
I don't think you understand where I am coming from. The endgame for the vast majority of people in D3 is the same as the endgame in D2, play until the rate of leveling and getting item upgrades slows down to a point that you don't want to go on.
What D2 has is not more freedom, but more grinding. You just happen to like the grinding that game has. It's something that the most hardcore D2 fans share but not something that a majority of the player base for both games share. D3 allows more experimentation of builds. It's just that it doesn't waste your time whenever you want to experiment. And again, the people who loved D2's style loved grinding new characters, something that we don't all share. I only created one character per class in D2. I would have loved to try new skills but I didn't like the grind. I dont know who you played D2 with, but I knew literally hundreds of players over the years in game, d2jsp and other forums and what you described was not true for single one of them. ROFL, people werent complaining about lack of endgame in D2 after 10 years, while in D3 they started complainining after 10 weeks - so your theory that its the same and nothing has changed kinda doesnt make sense... Anyway, we obviously played and understood D2 on totally different level, so no point talking here.
It's very probable that << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >> isn't really a representative population and every problems D2 had that made other people stop playing that game probably won't be of importance to them.
I mean it's cool to not like some systems or idea, I don't like everything either and mainly would like them to add more competitive stuff. But it should be obvious by now that everytime you say something along the line "nobody wants this", "every wants that" that you in fact speak of << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >>. Which is far from being everybody that plays D3.
Now... I also think they just don't add enough. Just make ladders and races and it would be a huge improvement in my opinion as to create a semblance of end game.
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On November 26 2013 05:12 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 03:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:On November 26 2013 02:14 andrewlt wrote:
I don't think you understand where I am coming from. The endgame for the vast majority of people in D3 is the same as the endgame in D2, play until the rate of leveling and getting item upgrades slows down to a point that you don't want to go on.
What D2 has is not more freedom, but more grinding. You just happen to like the grinding that game has. It's something that the most hardcore D2 fans share but not something that a majority of the player base for both games share. D3 allows more experimentation of builds. It's just that it doesn't waste your time whenever you want to experiment. And again, the people who loved D2's style loved grinding new characters, something that we don't all share. I only created one character per class in D2. I would have loved to try new skills but I didn't like the grind. I dont know who you played D2 with, but I knew literally hundreds of players over the years in game, d2jsp and other forums and what you described was not true for single one of them. ROFL, people werent complaining about lack of endgame in D2 after 10 years, while in D3 they started complainining after 10 weeks - so your theory that its the same and nothing has changed kinda doesnt make sense... Anyway, we obviously played and understood D2 on totally different level, so no point talking here. It's very probable that << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >> isn't really a representative population and every problems D2 had that made other people stop playing that game probably won't be of importance to them. I mean it's cool to not like some systems or idea, I don't like everything either and mainly would like them to add more competitive stuff. But it should be obvious by now that everytime you say something along the line "nobody wants this", "every wants that" that you in fact speak of << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >>. Which is far from being everybody that plays D3. Now... I also think they just don't add enough. Just make ladders and races and it would be a huge improvement in my opinion as to create a semblance of end game.
That statement is based on presumtion that people who didnt like D2 quietly stopped playing and moved to other games, while people who dont like D3 can not quit and must complain. What do you want me to respond to that?
Let me explain you something: this world was exactly the same 5 years ago as it is now, with all whiners and haters.
Actually - I take that back. D2 was running on medieval technology with no anti dupe and bot protection, so it was massively affected by both.
And couple years ago there was less games so...
You seriously think that whiners didnt exist 5 years ago? You seriously think there were no battle.net forums 5 years ago? You seriously think that people didnt talk because they couldnt or didnt care because they could choose 1000 other games and now suddenly they cant?
Try to stop for a moment before making next post, and perhaps you will realize that there is nothing that magically appeared in last 5 years that changed all Gaming world. Thinking that 5 years ago people had exactly same problems but didnt talk about it because they had nowhere to post or whatever of that sort is just stupid.
And FYI not everyone who was playing D2 10 years after release was playing it for 10 years.
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On November 26 2013 05:58 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 05:12 rezoacken wrote:On November 26 2013 03:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:On November 26 2013 02:14 andrewlt wrote:
I don't think you understand where I am coming from. The endgame for the vast majority of people in D3 is the same as the endgame in D2, play until the rate of leveling and getting item upgrades slows down to a point that you don't want to go on.
What D2 has is not more freedom, but more grinding. You just happen to like the grinding that game has. It's something that the most hardcore D2 fans share but not something that a majority of the player base for both games share. D3 allows more experimentation of builds. It's just that it doesn't waste your time whenever you want to experiment. And again, the people who loved D2's style loved grinding new characters, something that we don't all share. I only created one character per class in D2. I would have loved to try new skills but I didn't like the grind. I dont know who you played D2 with, but I knew literally hundreds of players over the years in game, d2jsp and other forums and what you described was not true for single one of them. ROFL, people werent complaining about lack of endgame in D2 after 10 years, while in D3 they started complainining after 10 weeks - so your theory that its the same and nothing has changed kinda doesnt make sense... Anyway, we obviously played and understood D2 on totally different level, so no point talking here. It's very probable that << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >> isn't really a representative population and every problems D2 had that made other people stop playing that game probably won't be of importance to them. I mean it's cool to not like some systems or idea, I don't like everything either and mainly would like them to add more competitive stuff. But it should be obvious by now that everytime you say something along the line "nobody wants this", "every wants that" that you in fact speak of << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >>. Which is far from being everybody that plays D3. Now... I also think they just don't add enough. Just make ladders and races and it would be a huge improvement in my opinion as to create a semblance of end game. That statement is based on presumtion that people who didnt like D2 quietly stopped playing and moved to other games, while people who dont like D3 can not quit and must complain. What do you want me to respond to that? Let me explain you something: this world was exactly the same 5 years ago as it is now, with all whiners and haters. Actually - I take that back. D2 was running on medieval technology with no anti dupe and bot protection, so it was massively affected by both. And couple years ago there was less games so... You seriously think that whiners didnt exist 5 years ago? You seriously think there were no battle.net forums 5 years ago? You seriously think that people didnt talk because they couldnt or didnt care because they could choose 1000 other games and now suddenly they cant? Try to stop for a moment before making next post, and perhaps you will realize that there is nothing that magically appeared in last 5 years that changed all Gaming world. Thinking that 5 years ago people had exactly same problems but didnt talk about it because they had nowhere to post or whatever of that sort is just stupid. And FYI not everyone who was playing D2 10 years after release was playing it for 10 years.
The gaming world was definatelly vastly diferent 13 years ago. This whole trend of community feedback, positive or negative, was far less relevant or even even non existant. A lot of games have had worse sequels without generating this kind of behavior.
And about D2, it's definatelly true that most players didn't reach "endgame". Most people didn't even play online. I would say it's very likely most people that played Diablo 2 didn't even finish Hell.
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On November 26 2013 06:26 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 05:58 Sek-Kuar wrote:On November 26 2013 05:12 rezoacken wrote:On November 26 2013 03:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:On November 26 2013 02:14 andrewlt wrote:
I don't think you understand where I am coming from. The endgame for the vast majority of people in D3 is the same as the endgame in D2, play until the rate of leveling and getting item upgrades slows down to a point that you don't want to go on.
What D2 has is not more freedom, but more grinding. You just happen to like the grinding that game has. It's something that the most hardcore D2 fans share but not something that a majority of the player base for both games share. D3 allows more experimentation of builds. It's just that it doesn't waste your time whenever you want to experiment. And again, the people who loved D2's style loved grinding new characters, something that we don't all share. I only created one character per class in D2. I would have loved to try new skills but I didn't like the grind. I dont know who you played D2 with, but I knew literally hundreds of players over the years in game, d2jsp and other forums and what you described was not true for single one of them. ROFL, people werent complaining about lack of endgame in D2 after 10 years, while in D3 they started complainining after 10 weeks - so your theory that its the same and nothing has changed kinda doesnt make sense... Anyway, we obviously played and understood D2 on totally different level, so no point talking here. It's very probable that << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >> isn't really a representative population and every problems D2 had that made other people stop playing that game probably won't be of importance to them. I mean it's cool to not like some systems or idea, I don't like everything either and mainly would like them to add more competitive stuff. But it should be obvious by now that everytime you say something along the line "nobody wants this", "every wants that" that you in fact speak of << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >>. Which is far from being everybody that plays D3. Now... I also think they just don't add enough. Just make ladders and races and it would be a huge improvement in my opinion as to create a semblance of end game. That statement is based on presumtion that people who didnt like D2 quietly stopped playing and moved to other games, while people who dont like D3 can not quit and must complain. What do you want me to respond to that? Let me explain you something: this world was exactly the same 5 years ago as it is now, with all whiners and haters. Actually - I take that back. D2 was running on medieval technology with no anti dupe and bot protection, so it was massively affected by both. And couple years ago there was less games so... You seriously think that whiners didnt exist 5 years ago? You seriously think there were no battle.net forums 5 years ago? You seriously think that people didnt talk because they couldnt or didnt care because they could choose 1000 other games and now suddenly they cant? Try to stop for a moment before making next post, and perhaps you will realize that there is nothing that magically appeared in last 5 years that changed all Gaming world. Thinking that 5 years ago people had exactly same problems but didnt talk about it because they had nowhere to post or whatever of that sort is just stupid. And FYI not everyone who was playing D2 10 years after release was playing it for 10 years. The gaming world was definatelly vastly diferent 13 years ago. This whole trend of community feedback, positive or negative, was far less relevant or even even non existant. A lot of games have had worse sequels without generating this kind of behavior. And about D2, it's definatelly true that most players didn't reach "endgame". Most people didn't even play online. I would say it's very likely most people that played Diablo 2 didn't even finish Hell.
I didnt say 13 years ^^ I said 5 years... and I could even say less than that as D2 was still one of the best selling games and donzens of thousands regular players back then.
And again, nothing has changed. Blizzard released statistics for D3 clearly showing that majority of players didnt reach inferno few months ago (dont know any ever since), so we can speculate all day how things were in D2 but we would not get to much of a difference anyway.
The only thing we know for fact is that in D2 not week, not month, not year and not even decade after release among thousands of whine posts about runes, dupes, bots, items selling sites etc. etc. you could not find any complaints about longetivity of D2. Not 13 years ago, not 10 years ago, not 5 years ago and not 3 years ago.
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That's partially because longevity just wasn't an issue. Most people didn't expect to play the game for hundreds of hours, you expected a single playthrough. Replayability was a bonus. Alos, even if it was an issue, you wouldn't hear about it as much as you do now. Players were also not used to features like respecing, the standards changed. It's like you didn't hear much about people complaining about balance in Red Alert 2 or there's a lot of complaints about Shadowrun Returns not allowing you to save, even if it was common for older games to not have such a feature.
Either way, what he was saying is that longevity just isn't a concern for most people, because they don't even reach endgame, be it in D2 or D3. He is right, and it has nothing to do with on whether endgame is worse for the more hardcore players.
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Sure, because that makes sense... All those players on nightmare with their 35-40 lvl chars kept complaining about duping and bots, because some 65+ lvl runewords were naturally big issue for them (even though they actually never saw them and didnt even know they exist), but noone ever considered thinking about endgame.
That must be it... I can see that now thanks 
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On November 26 2013 05:58 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 05:12 rezoacken wrote:On November 26 2013 03:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:On November 26 2013 02:14 andrewlt wrote:
I don't think you understand where I am coming from. The endgame for the vast majority of people in D3 is the same as the endgame in D2, play until the rate of leveling and getting item upgrades slows down to a point that you don't want to go on.
What D2 has is not more freedom, but more grinding. You just happen to like the grinding that game has. It's something that the most hardcore D2 fans share but not something that a majority of the player base for both games share. D3 allows more experimentation of builds. It's just that it doesn't waste your time whenever you want to experiment. And again, the people who loved D2's style loved grinding new characters, something that we don't all share. I only created one character per class in D2. I would have loved to try new skills but I didn't like the grind. I dont know who you played D2 with, but I knew literally hundreds of players over the years in game, d2jsp and other forums and what you described was not true for single one of them. ROFL, people werent complaining about lack of endgame in D2 after 10 years, while in D3 they started complainining after 10 weeks - so your theory that its the same and nothing has changed kinda doesnt make sense... Anyway, we obviously played and understood D2 on totally different level, so no point talking here. It's very probable that << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >> isn't really a representative population and every problems D2 had that made other people stop playing that game probably won't be of importance to them. I mean it's cool to not like some systems or idea, I don't like everything either and mainly would like them to add more competitive stuff. But it should be obvious by now that everytime you say something along the line "nobody wants this", "every wants that" that you in fact speak of << the people on d2jsp "and other forums" that played D2 for 10years >>. Which is far from being everybody that plays D3. Now... I also think they just don't add enough. Just make ladders and races and it would be a huge improvement in my opinion as to create a semblance of end game. That statement is based on presumtion that people who didnt like D2 quietly stopped playing and moved to other games, while people who dont like D3 can not quit and must complain. What do you want me to respond to that?
Nope. That statement is based on your own words that you talk about the D2JSP community or similar forums. I'm only stating that this is a very restraint part of the Diablo 3 players so making generalization as to what people like or want is bold.
The rest of your post has shit to do with what I said as you just extrapolate and put words in my mouth. I'll just briefly comment then: Of course there was discontent 5y ago and 10y ago but that isn't a counter-argument to what I was saying. Which is that I think you have a very biased view of what you think people want in the game Diablo 3.
And I even agree with some of it lol. I just find you annoying to reply to some other posters suggestions by saying "nobody wants that" when in facts you're saying "me and my D2 friends don't want that".
Blah, either way it's not like this post would change something as to what D3 will or won't be so that's kind of a waste of time I guess.
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so basically your argument goes as follows:
the numerical majority of d2 or d3 players are casual noobs who dont expect more than one or two playthroughs of the game and who are so unimaginably bad that they might even fail to reach hell/inferno in games as easy as d2/d3. since this group of players is the majority of the customer-base, the game producers should mostly care about the interests of this group since they generate the majority of sales revenue. therefore, endgame content or longevity are overrated and it would make perfect sense for blizzard to create mediocre, short-lived titles like any other company in the business.
does this sum it up?
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On November 27 2013 02:38 Black Gun wrote:
so basically your argument goes as follows:
the numerical majority of d2 or d3 players are casual noobs who dont expect more than one or two playthroughs of the game and who are so unimaginably bad that they might even fail to reach hell/inferno in games as easy as d2/d3. since this group of players is the majority of the customer-base, the game producers should mostly care about the interests of this group since they generate the majority of sales revenue. therefore, endgame content or longevity are overrated and it would make perfect sense for blizzard to create mediocre, short-lived titles like any other company in the business.
does this sum it up?
The funny part is that blizzard buys this theory.
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On November 27 2013 02:38 Black Gun wrote:
so basically your argument goes as follows:
the numerical majority of d2 or d3 players are casual noobs who dont expect more than one or two playthroughs of the game and who are so unimaginably bad that they might even fail to reach hell/inferno in games as easy as d2/d3. since this group of players is the majority of the customer-base, the game producers should mostly care about the interests of this group since they generate the majority of sales revenue. therefore, endgame content or longevity are overrated and it would make perfect sense for blizzard to create mediocre, short-lived titles like any other company in the business.
does this sum it up?
No it doesn't, it's just a strawman argument.
There is a world of differences between "catering to casuals and making a shallow game" (which I think D3 is currently) and "not making every D2 hardcore players wishes true".
I'm a firm believer that you can make a game that has both depth and doesn't alienate casuals.
On November 27 2013 02:43 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 02:38 Black Gun wrote:
so basically your argument goes as follows:
the numerical majority of d2 or d3 players are casual noobs who dont expect more than one or two playthroughs of the game and who are so unimaginably bad that they might even fail to reach hell/inferno in games as easy as d2/d3. since this group of players is the majority of the customer-base, the game producers should mostly care about the interests of this group since they generate the majority of sales revenue. therefore, endgame content or longevity are overrated and it would make perfect sense for blizzard to create mediocre, short-lived titles like any other company in the business.
does this sum it up?
The funny part is that blizzard buys this theory.
And I agree it's stupid.
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you guys sure like to whine about generalities.
looks like crushing below is going to get nerfed soon.
We are in a super early beta testing phase right now, and there are still lots of things that need tuning and also bugs that need fixing.
The developers intentions with Crushing Blow is for it to be competitive with stats like Increased Attack Speed, Critical Hit Chance, or Critical Hit Damage, but obviously it will need some tuning if it clearly trumps all of those other stats.
We are of course interested in reading more of your thoughts on Crushing Blow, so please keep posting your feedback on it :-)
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8783708551#5
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The Changes/Hotfixes are pretty good already. Should fix at least the major problems right now. Now they need to change some of the Loot. You still get great Gear way too fast.
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rofl, now we know why the thing was the "rape beam":
# Heaven's Fury
# Bug: Now properly deals 1500% weapon damage over 5 seconds instead of every second.
so with the approximately 1m dps that chars had, this skill was doing 15m dps and 75m dam over the 5s before the bugfix.
well, this is what the beta is intended for. imagine a bug like this had gone live: the progress and gear advantage that those who abused this bug already got would be impossible to catch up.
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On November 27 2013 20:20 CrankOut wrote:
The Changes/Hotfixes are pretty good already. Should fix at least the major problems right now. Now they need to change some of the Loot. You still get great Gear way too fast.
i actually think this is intentional. they want people to find the loot so that they can test the loot. it makes no sense to make the best legends/sets/rares drop infrequently and not allow anyone to test them. they will likely tweak drop rates during closed or open beta rather than early on like now.
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On November 28 2013 02:36 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 20:20 CrankOut wrote:
The Changes/Hotfixes are pretty good already. Should fix at least the major problems right now. Now they need to change some of the Loot. You still get great Gear way too fast. i actually think this is intentional. they want people to find the loot so that they can test the loot. it makes no sense to make the best legends/sets/rares drop infrequently and not allow anyone to test them. they will likely tweak drop rates during closed or open beta rather than early on like now.
thats actually quite a good point.
by the high droprates, they have for example found out that immunity rings are too strong.
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Blizzard actually just confirmed the point:
Right now it just seems like everyone can just beat the game in a couple days and then there’s really no incentive to keep playing since loot rains down from the sky and makes the difficulties obsolete since they’re just a gearcheck anyway and not actually harder in terms of like, increasing monster speed or AoE range or aggression or adding hard-mode affixes.
Nevalistis: The current legendary acquisition rate is higher than planned for launch. We will continue to tune this to arrive at an ideal reward rate, but in the meantime it allows our beta testers to get their hands on a variety of items for testing purposes.
Also consider that Bounties are compounding this issue a bit. With the changes I mentioned above regarding reduction in rewards, this should become a bit less of an issue.
TLDR: It’s Beta! Lots is subject to change, and we’re not done yet.
http://blues.incgamers.com/Posts/10/1/77/1392/215358/blue-will-we-see-any-more-large-changesadditions
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Well yeah if they are serious about their beta first phases are mostly to test out stuff. Balance comes last since there is no point in trying to balance broken stuff that you'd have to change anyway.
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EPT
