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On May 22 2012 22:37 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 22 2012 22:03 aksfjh wrote:On May 22 2012 21:51 Tobberoth wrote:On May 22 2012 21:41 Caphe wrote:I am a Barb and I know Wizard abuse the shit out of the current situation but thats not completely about balance, thats bad game design or even that is intended. Who know? Maybe the only balance issue is the effort you need to put into a Barb vs a Wizard in order to beat Inferno. If you chose a difficult road, man up and go on  . I'd say it's more a question of viability. We all know that there are "broken" wizard builds which allow tanking of act 4 rares, which are the hardest enemies in the game, no doubt, if you play the game legit, the wizard will always be oneshot without a doubt, and has nothing like the kiting ability of a DH. It's not about being harder or easier, it's about one way working and the other being impossibe. So the question is, of course, is it actually possible for a barbarian to solo inferno? If act 2 enemies 2shot barbarians with full act 1 inferno armor, how can they ever get to the point where they beat diablo? Blizzard making a difficult game is a nice thing, them making an impossible game is not so nice. It's more of the fact that making a game that is impossible for some is not so nice. It'd be fine if Wizards had to deal with the same level of frustration, but they don't. What's more, they do so through an ability that essentially got left out of the very, very standard survivability clause of "can only happen once every X seconds." And how would that happen? Take away force armor and wizard becomes completely unplayable in inferno, even with perfect gear you would never stand a chance in act 4. And I would say it is the same frustration, or even worse. Barbarians can get down and work on their gear. As a wizard, you either give up, or start checking AH for gear which lets you use a boring cheesy build. And yet the same is true for melee... Gear doesn't actually keep them from 1-shotting you since diminishing returns kick in too much before you hit the 1 shot damage. Reducing the damage by 70% isn't going to help a lot when a normal mob does 170k damage and you have 50k health. If that's the case with a normal mob, blues and golds are suddenly impossible even in best circumstances.
Which is obviously Blizzard messing up, saying it would make sense if Wizard had the same problem makes no sense. The game should obviously not be made to be impossible for anyone, and definitely not EVERYONE.
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On May 22 2012 02:33 trinxified wrote:
I like your points. Sums up a lot of the balance issues. Maybe the overall use of the Auction House is also a problem? Although this is really the only way to gear up accordingly for the later difficulties, I just find it stupid to leave the game to buy/sell new items... Almost defeats the purpose of looting.
I think in a wild guess, Auction House will eventually break the game. There's going to have people who broke the game in like a month or so. The godly rare items they piled up will slowly become a waste of space and they'll just sell them for nothing. I feel like it's very dangerous to have a open market place like this when eventually it'll just be every player versus the environment? The 10 items only rule is probably the only thing slowing down us breaking the game... so if they balance this by making it so difficult he best gears can't survive, then there's really no point QQ
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On May 22 2012 20:38 Sindriss wrote:
My biggest problem is what is mentioned many times already: Ranged have it so much easier in inferno than melee, that it is not even funny. This ensures that they more easily can grind good gear, thereby earn more money and thus, have a much better start, as prices are high for good stuff.
I play a barb myself, so is biased, but I just think that there should be more ranged orientated abilities on mobs, so that they do not have such an easier time due to kiting. This would probably at least help to equalize the wide gab between ranged and melee that currently exists.
I agree 100% with this post, everything is designed to rip melee to pieces, but simply skillchecks ranges classes. A good example are slow moving projectiles that do huge amounts of damage. As a Barb I can't avoid them because the projectile simply hits me, but a ranged can dodge it easily. There is very little that can touch a ranged but the list of stuff that messes up barbs is extremely long, they really need to add more things that threaten poorly geared range classes.
I ripped through everything with another barb and we had our struggles, certain areas were extremely difficult but we made it through. It's really disheartening to read some of these threads though, and to think that my barb my actually just be garbage because he's really fun to play.
My friends playing wizards/demon hunters walked straight out of hell, into inferno with no problems at all. I whispered my barb friend who is on act 3 inferno as a solo barb and his response was "This is hell"
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As a Wizard player, I find a lot of things pretty unbalanced in the game at the inferno level. Let me explain,
It is true that Diamond skin+energy armor with force rune makes you very tanky (you can only get 2 shotted because of the energy armor and then you are invincible for another 2-3 hits because of diamond skin). However, whenever you get a pack of elites with fire chains, you basically get killed in a second or so. When you get vortexed or jailed, the same happends because they have at least the time to get a smack at you 2-3 times. Then, your diamond skin is in cooldown and on the next jail or vortex you get one shotted.
The solution: I believe they should nerf energy armor to maybe 10% or something like that. Then, they should buff the income of resist from intellect by a lot.
Another problem is the lack of item drops in the game...Back in diablo2, by the time you got to baal in hell, you would of seen lots of uniques and sets drop. In Diablo3, I am in inferno act2 and I still did not any of those. It is great that yellows are strong and easy to drop with the nephalem buff but it does not feel as rewarding. They should buff the drop rate and also buff their statistics...I find it stupid that a ''rare'' item can be better than a ''legendary'' item...
Also, on the bosses...How stupid is the fact that you can simply avoid all the packs of champions to get to the last boss of an act and 1 shot him easily with any decent group of players...The final bosses should be the hard part not the easiest...The should nerf the champions damage and health (or at least the health and regen of life when we die) and buff the bosses....The butcher has sort of an enrage timer which is great...But they should add an ability or a second phase or something in inferno so that it really becomes harder. I know that in diablo, champions always have been hard...but it is stupid that 1 week after release, a wizard managed to single-kill diablo in inferno with 6k hp...He simply avoided all the trash and went to diablo only to kite him while his hydras killed him...It is dumb....
There is a crucial need to more content...They need to release something else...a second whimsy level or something. Even a ladder would be crucial at this point...PvP needs to come out very soon because I am already fed up by the game...and I love diablo...I dont want it to happend definatly...
Also, for those complaining about melee being hardest than ranged...I live the complete opposite...I play with a friend of mine (monk) who just jumps in almost every pack careless and he never dies...sure he doesnt do much damage and he is so tanky that he can surive 4 times longer than me even if I am ranged...I do not see how you guys can say this...
Finally, the stats on items is dumb...there is no originality...You only look for the best dps weapon, the vitality on the item and the main stats of your character...if it is higher, you pick it...if not, you salvage it...There needs to be more interesting stats or stuff on the items....
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On May 22 2012 22:39 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:37 aksfjh wrote:On May 22 2012 22:11 Tobberoth wrote:On May 22 2012 22:03 aksfjh wrote:On May 22 2012 21:51 Tobberoth wrote:On May 22 2012 21:41 Caphe wrote:I am a Barb and I know Wizard abuse the shit out of the current situation but thats not completely about balance, thats bad game design or even that is intended. Who know? Maybe the only balance issue is the effort you need to put into a Barb vs a Wizard in order to beat Inferno. If you chose a difficult road, man up and go on . I'd say it's more a question of viability. We all know that there are "broken" wizard builds which allow tanking of act 4 rares, which are the hardest enemies in the game, no doubt, if you play the game legit, the wizard will always be oneshot without a doubt, and has nothing like the kiting ability of a DH. It's not about being harder or easier, it's about one way working and the other being impossibe. So the question is, of course, is it actually possible for a barbarian to solo inferno? If act 2 enemies 2shot barbarians with full act 1 inferno armor, how can they ever get to the point where they beat diablo? Blizzard making a difficult game is a nice thing, them making an impossible game is not so nice. It's more of the fact that making a game that is impossible for some is not so nice. It'd be fine if Wizards had to deal with the same level of frustration, but they don't. What's more, they do so through an ability that essentially got left out of the very, very standard survivability clause of "can only happen once every X seconds." And how would that happen? Take away force armor and wizard becomes completely unplayable in inferno, even with perfect gear you would never stand a chance in act 4. And I would say it is the same frustration, or even worse. Barbarians can get down and work on their gear. As a wizard, you either give up, or start checking AH for gear which lets you use a boring cheesy build. And yet the same is true for melee... Gear doesn't actually keep them from 1-shotting you since diminishing returns kick in too much before you hit the 1 shot damage. Reducing the damage by 70% isn't going to help a lot when a normal mob does 170k damage and you have 50k health. If that's the case with a normal mob, blues and golds are suddenly impossible even in best circumstances. Which is obviously Blizzard messing up, saying it would make sense if Wizard had the same problem makes no sense. The game should obviously not be made to be impossible for anyone, and definitely not EVERYONE.
Of course. I want every class to be able to beat it as well. However, you're not going to get there by letting Wizards play with a system that is obviously broken. Like I said, they have an ability that CLEARLY missed the OP "don't kill me" standard of making it limited usage, that seems to have made it onto every other similar ability.
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On May 22 2012 22:40 Spec wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 02:33 trinxified wrote:
I like your points. Sums up a lot of the balance issues. Maybe the overall use of the Auction House is also a problem? Although this is really the only way to gear up accordingly for the later difficulties, I just find it stupid to leave the game to buy/sell new items... Almost defeats the purpose of looting. I think in a wild guess, Auction House will eventually break the game. There's going to have people who broke the game in like a month or so. The godly rare items they piled up will slowly become a waste of space and they'll just sell them for nothing. I feel like it's very dangerous to have a open market place like this when eventually it'll just be every player versus the environment? The 10 items only rule is probably the only thing slowing down us breaking the game... so if they balance this by making it so difficult he best gears can't survive, then there's really no point QQ
for me, after playing a bit in inferno and thinking about the game concept it seems completely broken not just with the gold AH but with elite mobs / packs mechanics and class mechanics it's silly. no fun.. i'm interested to see how it will look like in a month lol. Either a big big patch with some concept changes, a playstyle change or it turns out perfect on it's own (lol).
sooo much fail from blizzard imo.
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On May 22 2012 22:20 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:18 Noocta wrote:On May 22 2012 22:13 NightOfTheDead wrote:On May 22 2012 02:23 VoirDire wrote:
2. Melee characters doesn't seem as viable as ranged characters for several reasons:
a) Most elite mobs modifiers are designed to be difficult for melee characters. Molten/Arcane enchanted/Frozen/Fire chains/Plagued/Desecrator/Vampiric. The only real danger for ranged chars are vortex and mortar.
b) Ranged characters can kite and thereby focus on damage and kill much faster.
Your view seems a bit off. Try ranged char, i think your perspective will change. Jailor with any mortar/fast/plagued molten are much worse for ranged. Fast trait on already fast mobs, are nearly impossible without debatable mechanics/abuses. Fast+invulnerable minions is like a worst combination. I agree, melee has less kiting tools to work with. But one shotted from fast trash mobs isnt fun at all. Melee classes have no problem with white trash, however, EVERY single trash mob matters to wiz/dh, cause they just die. Im kinda not disagreeing completely, just saying that ranged doesnt have THAT much more luxury as you sound. They have it hard time alright. I think almost every class has a spell who break jailor. Yea, but you just dont change your build on one trait some some elites might have. Also they jail you more often than you can use that skill ( unless some class has it without cooldown).
Well, I play Monk, and Dashing strike break it with no cooldown ( and with only a 10 spirit cost with the right rune )
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80% of the Elite-Affixes are Anti-Melee, Molten/Arcane/Plague is so hard as Melee and Range can just avoid it completly.
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It's just a game guys, that's been recently released too. Blizzard isn't perfect, especially the first time around.
I for one, am a little pissed off that my caltrops arn't working since hell. I'm looking forward to earning big bucks on the AH though. items are being sold on the fly these days. And farming inferno items isn't impossible. Just more methodical and time consuming.
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The whole game needs a rehaul, simply stat scaling is a real lazy way to build an end game, cut back the stat shit and give all monsters more interesting abilities as you progress to each difficulty.
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On May 22 2012 22:30 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:26 ffreakk wrote:
In any case, why should we care too much about balance in a game that's predominantly meant for Single-Player? They did say that Coop is only a "on the side" thing, Single Player is the main focus. And that is, IMO, where they failed. D3 feels like a coop game with singleplayer "tacced on". Why? Because rare mobs can have modifiers which hardcounters your class completely, so badly in fact that you either have to try to get around them, or restart and hope to not get a similar pack. Where as in a group of 4 people, you don't have that problem because everyone has skills which complement eachother and gives decent ability to beat any rare mob pack you'll come across. The difficulty definitely seems tuned for coop.
I agree that Inferno is so much more bearable with a group. But that's Inferno, where only a very small percentage of the players walk. Imho this mode is mostly a challenge, and i don't get the feeling that Inferno will be what they ll look at first while they are balancing 
Oh, and unlike some other people, i feel that Barb is pretty good in party play. Stomp stuns for ages, unlike Frost Nova or even Leap (Death from Above) which (feels like, at least) barely stun for a second in Inferno. Wrenching Smash (Stomp rune) == really good in pulling things together so that your DPS can nuke them down quickly. I've been enjoying Inferno so far
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On May 22 2012 22:56 Lokian wrote:
It's just a game guys, that's been recently released too. Blizzard isn't perfect, especially the first time around.
Why should this be acceptable? They are selling the game as their job - since when is 'just a game' or 'recently released' an argument for sub-par work?
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Main problems with the auction house are: 10 auction limit and 2 day auctions.
This basically means that everyone will want to have their gear sell asap, and this also means that at least some people will sell items for a greatly reduced price, which also makes everything greatly cheaper. You can buy amazing gear for your level at like lvl 20 with just the normal loot you have gotten, simply because everyone's selling for so cheap. You probably would pay the ~50k you have at that level just for an amazing weapon for the level, or at least that'd be a tough decision to make. However, people need more space for auctions and cannot wait for 2 ways, so it's more beneficial for them to sell everything dirt cheap, like even 2-5k a piece even for amazing equips at that level. The way they made the auctions uncancelable and limited ruins the economy.
(Of course this is true for inferno as well, for instance you can buy an amazing lvl 60 weapon that likely has around triple the dps of your past weapon for less than 50k, only the very best items cost alot)
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First, dodge and armor both have diminishing returns, and Barbarians have tons of armor boosts but they are overkill, and the skills offer no help with dodge.
There are no diminishing returns on either dodge or armor.
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On May 22 2012 23:13 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +
First, dodge and armor both have diminishing returns, and Barbarians have tons of armor boosts but they are overkill, and the skills offer no help with dodge.
There are no diminishing returns on either dodge or armor.
Armor works on "time to live" scaling. It's essentially the easiest and best known form of diminishing returns.
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Yeah i agree the AH is something that actually isn't very nice to diablo... i liked it at first but now that i think about it, i feel like it isn't supposed to be there. Your gear will be 90% bought or even 100% bought via the AH if you use it frequently (which you can as the items are really really cheap). That's not really fun IMO. And i doubt that will change in the long run. Only viable thing seems to be to avoid the AH, but it's hard to completely do that i guess.
As for people getting one shotted... i doubt that will change much with equip. Maybe they'll have to rebalance things a little.
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On May 22 2012 23:20 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 23:13 VoirDire wrote:
First, dodge and armor both have diminishing returns, and Barbarians have tons of armor boosts but they are overkill, and the skills offer no help with dodge.
There are no diminishing returns on either dodge or armor. Armor works on "time to live" scaling. It's essentially the easiest and best known form of diminishing returns.
How is it dimnishing? If you have 70% damage reduction, you take 30% damage. If you have 70% dodge chance, you take 30% damage. The only difference is the burst.
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I think the armor is diminishing in the way that the 1point armor means less % damage reduction if u have much armor...
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On May 22 2012 23:22 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 23:20 aksfjh wrote:On May 22 2012 23:13 VoirDire wrote:
First, dodge and armor both have diminishing returns, and Barbarians have tons of armor boosts but they are overkill, and the skills offer no help with dodge.
There are no diminishing returns on either dodge or armor. Armor works on "time to live" scaling. It's essentially the easiest and best known form of diminishing returns. How is it dimnishing? If you have 70% damage reduction, you take 30% damage. If you have 70% dodge chance, you take 30% damage. The only difference is the burst.
Each point of armor will make you take X more hits at Y raw damage. It takes the same amount of armor to get from 0 to 50% as 50% to 75%.
I don't know about the dodge diminishing returns, but I bet Blizzard would implement it (if not already) if people got too close to 100%. And again, if a monster hits for 170k against 50k health and 70% reduction, that's still a 1 shot, even if 9/10 hits are dodged, and that's RIDICULOUS amount of gear.
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On May 22 2012 23:08 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:56 Lokian wrote:
It's just a game guys, that's been recently released too. Blizzard isn't perfect, especially the first time around. Why should this be acceptable? They are selling the game as their job - since when is 'just a game' or 'recently released' an argument for sub-par work?
are you serious? Really? It's diablo man, be glad its out. Balance issues is expected when hundred of thousands of people are playing the game compared to the miniscule number of people they had in the beta. It's not like they can let everyone have the game for free and expect to make good money after release.
And I'd like to argue its not sub-par, its well made because it introduces a lot of new ideas that I personally think is reasonable. These changes you guys are talking about is not impossible to adress. There's plenty of abilities and affixes in d3 to work around. I'd take the current D3 than any MMO or consoles right now.
Farm some more guys, I'll be waiting to kill you and take your items in PVP.
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EPT
