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Balance disussion (Inferno) - Page 2

Forum Index > Diablo 3
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ihasaKAROT
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4730 Posts
May 22 2012 13:10 GMT
#21
Actually think the WD is balanced apart from the summons in Inferno. Changing builds all the time to suit the mobs im fighting, keeps the game fun! Summons really need a buff on inferno tho. Id say lower the enemy damage in inferno (also fixes barbproblem) but double the health or something like that.
KCCO!
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
May 22 2012 13:11 GMT
#22
On May 22 2012 22:03 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 21:51 Tobberoth wrote:
On May 22 2012 21:41 Caphe wrote:
I am a Barb and I know Wizard abuse the shit out of the current situation but thats not completely about balance, thats bad game design or even that is intended. Who know?

Maybe the only balance issue is the effort you need to put into a Barb vs a Wizard in order to beat Inferno. If you chose a difficult road, man up and go on .

I'd say it's more a question of viability. We all know that there are "broken" wizard builds which allow tanking of act 4 rares, which are the hardest enemies in the game, no doubt, if you play the game legit, the wizard will always be oneshot without a doubt, and has nothing like the kiting ability of a DH. It's not about being harder or easier, it's about one way working and the other being impossibe. So the question is, of course, is it actually possible for a barbarian to solo inferno? If act 2 enemies 2shot barbarians with full act 1 inferno armor, how can they ever get to the point where they beat diablo?

Blizzard making a difficult game is a nice thing, them making an impossible game is not so nice.

It's more of the fact that making a game that is impossible for some is not so nice. It'd be fine if Wizards had to deal with the same level of frustration, but they don't. What's more, they do so through an ability that essentially got left out of the very, very standard survivability clause of "can only happen once every X seconds."

And how would that happen? Take away force armor and wizard becomes completely unplayable in inferno, even with perfect gear you would never stand a chance in act 4. And I would say it is the same frustration, or even worse. Barbarians can get down and work on their gear. As a wizard, you either give up, or start checking AH for gear which lets you use a boring cheesy build.
Rice
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1332 Posts
May 22 2012 13:11 GMT
#23
obviously the stupid smokescreen spam build is completely broken and in my opinion smokescreen in general being full invuln is ridiculous and dumb.
Freedom will be defended at the cost of civil liberties.
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
May 22 2012 13:12 GMT
#24
On May 22 2012 22:10 ihasaKAROT wrote:
Actually think the WD is balanced apart from the summons in Inferno. Changing builds all the time to suit the mobs im fighting, keeps the game fun! Summons really need a buff on inferno tho. Id say lower the enemy damage in inferno (also fixes barbproblem) but double the health or something like that.


Problem is, you can't really change your build often if you want to keep the nephalem buff for the best loots.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Az0r_au
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia385 Posts
May 22 2012 13:12 GMT
#25
On May 22 2012 21:23 King_ wrote:
Im not in Inferno yet, but playing barb i agree with all you guys said here! Melee are not viable to solo inferno atm. What blizz can do? I honestly dont know, but im pretty sure that they are thinking in a way to make the game fun for Melee characters in inferno.

Another thing that bother´s me is the fact that after AII in Hell, you MUST go tank on mobs and FULL dps on bosses. In my opinion, the game was designed in a way that you could have freedom to choose your build as you like, for any situation. The game is forcing you to go in a especific way. You cant got 2H barb in Hell and Inferno, you just cant, you must go 1H and Shield and in Bosses 2 1H, this make the game much more straitfoward! If its gona be this way, let us choose our stats again! After a month, if there will be no changes, all barbs will be exactly the same during mob fights and bosses fights!

At last, most classes have some kind of CC imunity, Monks and DHs can easily break a freezing, stun or slow movement, but Barbs must activate a 2min CD to free themselves. To a melee character this is unthinkable! When i see the ice spikes, i immediately start to kite the mobs, but then, im taking severe dmg from the elite ones and NOT doing ANY dps, if i get frozen, its GG for me, certain death! Ignore Pain should make barb imunity from these kind of CCs or at least make him break it, like wow trinket.


Totally agree with barbs being very bellow average atm, but we do have one semi-reliable low CD immunity in charge. If you time it right you can immune the frost explosions.
NightOfTheDead
Profile Joined August 2009
Lithuania1711 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-22 13:16:26
May 22 2012 13:13 GMT
#26
On May 22 2012 02:23 VoirDire wrote:
2. Melee characters doesn't seem as viable as ranged characters for several reasons:
a) Most elite mobs modifiers are designed to be difficult for melee characters. Molten/Arcane enchanted/Frozen/Fire chains/Plagued/Desecrator/Vampiric. The only real danger for ranged chars are vortex and mortar.
b) Ranged characters can kite and thereby focus on damage and kill much faster.


Your view seems a bit off. Try ranged char, i think your perspective will change. Jailor with any mortar/fast/plagued molten are much worse for ranged. Fast trait on already fast mobs, are nearly impossible without debatable mechanics/abuses. Fast+invulnerable minions is like a worst combination.

I agree, melee has less kiting tools to work with. But one shotted from fast trash mobs isnt fun at all. Melee classes have no problem with white trash, however, EVERY single trash mob matters to wiz/dh, cause they just die.

Im kinda not disagreeing completely, just saying that ranged doesnt have THAT much more luxury as you sound. They have it hard time alright.
Caphe
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Vietnam10817 Posts
May 22 2012 13:16 GMT
#27
On May 22 2012 22:12 Az0r_au wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 21:23 King_ wrote:
Im not in Inferno yet, but playing barb i agree with all you guys said here! Melee are not viable to solo inferno atm. What blizz can do? I honestly dont know, but im pretty sure that they are thinking in a way to make the game fun for Melee characters in inferno.

Another thing that bother´s me is the fact that after AII in Hell, you MUST go tank on mobs and FULL dps on bosses. In my opinion, the game was designed in a way that you could have freedom to choose your build as you like, for any situation. The game is forcing you to go in a especific way. You cant got 2H barb in Hell and Inferno, you just cant, you must go 1H and Shield and in Bosses 2 1H, this make the game much more straitfoward! If its gona be this way, let us choose our stats again! After a month, if there will be no changes, all barbs will be exactly the same during mob fights and bosses fights!

At last, most classes have some kind of CC imunity, Monks and DHs can easily break a freezing, stun or slow movement, but Barbs must activate a 2min CD to free themselves. To a melee character this is unthinkable! When i see the ice spikes, i immediately start to kite the mobs, but then, im taking severe dmg from the elite ones and NOT doing ANY dps, if i get frozen, its GG for me, certain death! Ignore Pain should make barb imunity from these kind of CCs or at least make him break it, like wow trinket.


Totally agree with barbs being very bellow average atm, but we do have one semi-reliable low CD immunity in charge. If you time it right you can immune the frost explosions.

If timed right you can Leap to avoid, not leap out of range but leap up at the same place when the orbs are about to burst. I play with 400ms so I can't do it often but someone with 100~200ms ping can do it perfectly I think.
Terran
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
May 22 2012 13:18 GMT
#28
On May 22 2012 22:13 NightOfTheDead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 02:23 VoirDire wrote:
2. Melee characters doesn't seem as viable as ranged characters for several reasons:
a) Most elite mobs modifiers are designed to be difficult for melee characters. Molten/Arcane enchanted/Frozen/Fire chains/Plagued/Desecrator/Vampiric. The only real danger for ranged chars are vortex and mortar.
b) Ranged characters can kite and thereby focus on damage and kill much faster.


Your view seems a bit off. Try ranged char, i think your perspective will change. Jailor with any mortar/fast/plagued molten are much worse for ranged. Fast trait on already fast mobs, are nearly impossible without debatable mechanics/abuses. Fast+invulnerable minions is like a worst combination.

I agree, melee has less kiting tools to work with. But one shotted from fast trash mobs isnt fun at all. Melee classes have no problem with white trash, however, EVERY single trash mob matters to wiz/dh, cause they just die.

Im kinda not disagreeing completely, just saying that ranged doesnt have THAT much more luxury as you sound. They have it hard time alright.


I think almost every class has a spell who break jailor.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
NightOfTheDead
Profile Joined August 2009
Lithuania1711 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-22 13:23:46
May 22 2012 13:20 GMT
#29
On May 22 2012 22:18 Noocta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 22:13 NightOfTheDead wrote:
On May 22 2012 02:23 VoirDire wrote:
2. Melee characters doesn't seem as viable as ranged characters for several reasons:
a) Most elite mobs modifiers are designed to be difficult for melee characters. Molten/Arcane enchanted/Frozen/Fire chains/Plagued/Desecrator/Vampiric. The only real danger for ranged chars are vortex and mortar.
b) Ranged characters can kite and thereby focus on damage and kill much faster.


Your view seems a bit off. Try ranged char, i think your perspective will change. Jailor with any mortar/fast/plagued molten are much worse for ranged. Fast trait on already fast mobs, are nearly impossible without debatable mechanics/abuses. Fast+invulnerable minions is like a worst combination.

I agree, melee has less kiting tools to work with. But one shotted from fast trash mobs isnt fun at all. Melee classes have no problem with white trash, however, EVERY single trash mob matters to wiz/dh, cause they just die.

Im kinda not disagreeing completely, just saying that ranged doesnt have THAT much more luxury as you sound. They have it hard time alright.


I think almost every class has a spell who break jailor.


Yea, but you just dont change your build on one trait some some elites might have. Also they jail you more often than you can use that skill ( unless some class has it without cooldown).
Holytornados
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1022 Posts
May 22 2012 13:23 GMT
#30
Essentially melee is not playable in inferno. That's basically the largest problem I have found.
CLG/Liquid ~~ youtube.com/reddedgaming
ffreakk
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2155 Posts
May 22 2012 13:26 GMT
#31
On May 22 2012 21:59 nomsayin wrote:
Once I got to late nightmare and hell my Barbarian became worthless. I wouldn't say being undergeared is the problem. I have level 50+ gear twice as good as anything in the auction house because there aren't enough people that high up (I'm playing harcore). The thing about Barbs is that they are melee but can't tank at later difficulties. However, this is not a Melee issue. I would argue that Monk is the best class in the game, but is absolutely superior to the Barbarian.. If you're interested, please read on for a quick explanation of why this is the case.

First, dodge and armor both have diminishing returns, and Barbarians have tons of armor boosts but they are overkill, and the skills offer no help with dodge. Second, there's also no skills to help get high resistances, which are essential for fighting off elemental damage in hell.

On the other hand, Monks get dodge from their primary attribute, dexterity, and a good armor rating that naturally comes with high level gear. They have passive which matches their resistances to all types of damage (including physical) to their single highest resistance. To top it off, they have multiple active healing and passive healing skills, a resistance boosting passive, and even a god mode skill, which makes you temporarily invincible and escapes from all stuns. It's simply very difficult to die as a monk, and if you do he might still live to fight another day (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/monk/passive/near-death-experience).

You can see how this makes the Monk much stronger than the Barbarian later in the game. Especially considering that I play hard core, there is no reason for me to play a squishy Barbarian who can't solo trashmobs in hell when I can lead a group or solo with a Monk. For these reasons, I've given up on my barb until other players make it through hell and start selling gear in the AH. I started a Monk and I'll continue playing that.

TLDR: Monks are very strong in late difficulties, while Barbarians can't even tank trashmobs.


I ll have to disagree on Barb being worthless late Nightmare or Hell.

Now i've yet to set foot on act 2 Inferno, so i can't really comment. But before that, Barbs are fine. We have a lot of option before Inferno, and i certainly feel powerful enough. Of course, with the current level of gears available, Sword/Shield is the best way to go about Inferno (at least for act 1).

In any case, why should we care too much about balance in a game that's predominantly meant for Single-Player? They did say that Coop is only a "on the side" thing, Single Player is the main focus.
Look. Only Forward. See. Only Victory.
Disposition1989
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada270 Posts
May 22 2012 13:29 GMT
#32
54ish witch doctor, a lot of the runes suck ass (imo) but the spells themselves are pretty cool and do good damage. the only thing as said before is the pets. they either die too quick or the mobs bypass them and just attack me. ranged guys really dont wanna get bopped for 4k by little spider babies very often. i could solo up til act2 hell without doing any auction house stuff or going back and "magicfinding". some of the nutty mobs were impossible though, like mortar/chained/jailing/vampiric/extra fast just murder you if the mob decides your pet is a noob
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
May 22 2012 13:30 GMT
#33
On May 22 2012 22:26 ffreakk wrote:
In any case, why should we care too much about balance in a game that's predominantly meant for Single-Player? They did say that Coop is only a "on the side" thing, Single Player is the main focus.

And that is, IMO, where they failed. D3 feels like a coop game with singleplayer "tacced on". Why? Because rare mobs can have modifiers which hardcounters your class completely, so badly in fact that you either have to try to get around them, or restart and hope to not get a similar pack. Where as in a group of 4 people, you don't have that problem because everyone has skills which complement eachother and gives decent ability to beat any rare mob pack you'll come across.

The difficulty definitely seems tuned for coop.
CruelZeratul
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany4588 Posts
May 22 2012 13:33 GMT
#34
On May 22 2012 22:18 Noocta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 22:13 NightOfTheDead wrote:
On May 22 2012 02:23 VoirDire wrote:
2. Melee characters doesn't seem as viable as ranged characters for several reasons:
a) Most elite mobs modifiers are designed to be difficult for melee characters. Molten/Arcane enchanted/Frozen/Fire chains/Plagued/Desecrator/Vampiric. The only real danger for ranged chars are vortex and mortar.
b) Ranged characters can kite and thereby focus on damage and kill much faster.


Your view seems a bit off. Try ranged char, i think your perspective will change. Jailor with any mortar/fast/plagued molten are much worse for ranged. Fast trait on already fast mobs, are nearly impossible without debatable mechanics/abuses. Fast+invulnerable minions is like a worst combination.

I agree, melee has less kiting tools to work with. But one shotted from fast trash mobs isnt fun at all. Melee classes have no problem with white trash, however, EVERY single trash mob matters to wiz/dh, cause they just die.

Im kinda not disagreeing completely, just saying that ranged doesnt have THAT much more luxury as you sound. They have it hard time alright.


I think almost every class has a spell who break jailor.


Is there a way to break a jail as Wizard? I'd like to know.
NightOfTheDead
Profile Joined August 2009
Lithuania1711 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-22 13:37:25
May 22 2012 13:35 GMT
#35
On May 22 2012 22:33 CruelZeratul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 22:18 Noocta wrote:
On May 22 2012 22:13 NightOfTheDead wrote:
On May 22 2012 02:23 VoirDire wrote:
2. Melee characters doesn't seem as viable as ranged characters for several reasons:
a) Most elite mobs modifiers are designed to be difficult for melee characters. Molten/Arcane enchanted/Frozen/Fire chains/Plagued/Desecrator/Vampiric. The only real danger for ranged chars are vortex and mortar.
b) Ranged characters can kite and thereby focus on damage and kill much faster.


Your view seems a bit off. Try ranged char, i think your perspective will change. Jailor with any mortar/fast/plagued molten are much worse for ranged. Fast trait on already fast mobs, are nearly impossible without debatable mechanics/abuses. Fast+invulnerable minions is like a worst combination.

I agree, melee has less kiting tools to work with. But one shotted from fast trash mobs isnt fun at all. Melee classes have no problem with white trash, however, EVERY single trash mob matters to wiz/dh, cause they just die.

Im kinda not disagreeing completely, just saying that ranged doesnt have THAT much more luxury as you sound. They have it hard time alright.


I think almost every class has a spell who break jailor.


Is there a way to break a jail as Wizard? I'd like to know.


Mirror image does that. Problem is if u use it for some other emergencies like surviving hits, and then u get jailed after. I would say overall mirror image has a lot of uses. Actually i use it instead of primary attack, which i find terribad.
Doko
Profile Joined May 2010
Argentina1737 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-22 13:37:54
May 22 2012 13:36 GMT
#36
Its pretty hard to balance difficulty with no dedicated healers and where everyone can equip the same gear.

I think the main problem is that it seems no matter what gear some classes just get destroyed. The damage reduction of a barb/monk should be MUCH higher than that off a caster and even higher if using a tanking spec.
If they want casters to get 2 shot by ranged mobs i can live with it, but as it stands everyone gets instagibed by everything past act 1.

Another problem in tuning difficulty is that the player always has the option to skip a certain mob, reason why most bosses are so much easier than your average champion pack.
Act bosses have nothing on a pack of corrupted angels with mortar illusion fast + anything.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
May 22 2012 13:36 GMT
#37
Wizard actually has 2 abusable builds. There's Energy Armor+Force Armor, and there's also Magic Weapon+Venom/Shock Pulse+Living Lightning/Critical Mass which lets you have have infinitely spammable Frost Nova and Diamond Skin.
Moderator
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
May 22 2012 13:37 GMT
#38
On May 22 2012 22:11 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 22:03 aksfjh wrote:
On May 22 2012 21:51 Tobberoth wrote:
On May 22 2012 21:41 Caphe wrote:
I am a Barb and I know Wizard abuse the shit out of the current situation but thats not completely about balance, thats bad game design or even that is intended. Who know?

Maybe the only balance issue is the effort you need to put into a Barb vs a Wizard in order to beat Inferno. If you chose a difficult road, man up and go on .

I'd say it's more a question of viability. We all know that there are "broken" wizard builds which allow tanking of act 4 rares, which are the hardest enemies in the game, no doubt, if you play the game legit, the wizard will always be oneshot without a doubt, and has nothing like the kiting ability of a DH. It's not about being harder or easier, it's about one way working and the other being impossibe. So the question is, of course, is it actually possible for a barbarian to solo inferno? If act 2 enemies 2shot barbarians with full act 1 inferno armor, how can they ever get to the point where they beat diablo?

Blizzard making a difficult game is a nice thing, them making an impossible game is not so nice.

It's more of the fact that making a game that is impossible for some is not so nice. It'd be fine if Wizards had to deal with the same level of frustration, but they don't. What's more, they do so through an ability that essentially got left out of the very, very standard survivability clause of "can only happen once every X seconds."

And how would that happen? Take away force armor and wizard becomes completely unplayable in inferno, even with perfect gear you would never stand a chance in act 4. And I would say it is the same frustration, or even worse. Barbarians can get down and work on their gear. As a wizard, you either give up, or start checking AH for gear which lets you use a boring cheesy build.

And yet the same is true for melee... Gear doesn't actually keep them from 1-shotting you since diminishing returns kick in too much before you hit the 1 shot damage. Reducing the damage by 70% isn't going to help a lot when a normal mob does 170k damage and you have 50k health. If that's the case with a normal mob, blues and golds are suddenly impossible even in best circumstances.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
May 22 2012 13:38 GMT
#39
On May 22 2012 22:36 TheYango wrote:
Wizard actually has 2 abusable builds. There's Energy Armor+Force Armor, and there's also Magic Weapon+Venom/Shock Pulse+Living Lightning/Critical Mass which lets you have have infinitely spammable Frost Nova and Diamond Skin.

And you can use both at once.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
May 22 2012 13:39 GMT
#40
On May 22 2012 22:38 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 22:36 TheYango wrote:
Wizard actually has 2 abusable builds. There's Energy Armor+Force Armor, and there's also Magic Weapon+Venom/Shock Pulse+Living Lightning/Critical Mass which lets you have have infinitely spammable Frost Nova and Diamond Skin.

And you can use both at once.

Yeah, infinite Diamond Skin actually does a lot to deal with the 0 Vit Wizard's weakness to DoTs, because the DoT has to get through Diamond Skin.
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