EPTBalance disussion (Inferno) - Page 4
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HQuality
2682 Posts
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[Crimson]Bason
China161 Posts
On May 22 2012 23:13 VoirDire wrote: ]There are no diminishing returns on either dodge or armor. what are u talking about... all stats have diminishing return except for Vitality. u have 200 armor it does 30% reduction but when u have 7000 armor only reduce by 70% ... diminishing return makes sense but each stat is not balanced... int gives all resistance physical and magical.. armor does dmg reduction which is all dmg? not too sure about that... but why did they have to make this so complicated and it doesnt seem to work... armor reduce all dmg is not intuitive... int reducing physical dmg isnt intuitive either... D2 had a much simpler and beter system where armor reduce the chance of them to hit you...and resistances reduced all magical dmg... in D3 without attack rating all mobs will hit you 100% of time except when u dodge it... but classes such as barb, wizard, witch dont have much dodge therefore they get hit 80-100% of the time in all difficulties... so u can stack those armor/dmg reduction all you with the diminishing returns (70% is about close to max) you will die when an inferno mobs hits you for 100K with 70% reduced they will hit you for 30K dmg 80-100% of the time ... therefore u will die. Dodge is way better because u can dodge not only physical dmg but spells as well and it mitigates 100% of the dmg | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
This starts to burn really hard through Inferno, because Inferno mobs are treated as being above level 60, meaning that the further you go, the worse your armor performs compared to the advertised % damage reduction. By contrast, Dodge doesn't suffer the same issue. Your dodge chance is always the advertised dodge chance, regardless of enemy level. | ||
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[Crimson]Bason
China161 Posts
On May 22 2012 23:33 Lokian wrote: are you serious? Really? It's diablo man, be glad its out. Balance issues is expected when hundred of thousands of people are playing the game compared to the miniscule number of people they had in the beta. It's not like they can let everyone have the game for free and expect to make good money after release. And I'd like to argue its not sub-par, its well made because it introduces a lot of new ideas that I personally think is reasonable. These changes you guys are talking about is not impossible to adress. There's plenty of abilities and affixes in d3 to work around. I'd take the current D3 than any MMO or consoles right now. Farm some more guys, I'll be waiting to kill you and take your items in PVP. you really think D3 isnt sub par... i hate it when people say its just because its beta or it has only been a few days after release... what were they doing the last 10 years? same with Sc2 why did they have to regress and not progress on things that were well done in the prequels? all blizzard games have be going backwards and their bnet and chatting interface is like way worse than 10 years ago... people like you is the reason blizzard doesnt care about its product because you will defend it no matter what | ||
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
This is the same thing that began happening in wow after the game was sort of figured out 5 or 6 years ago. NEW BOSS/ELITE IS HARD BECAUSE [numbers] is a bad way to go, because there is a really really small sweet spot where its challenging. Its either next to impossible and un-fun because you just insta-die, or its really really really easy because you got more gear. I'd rather see things that make decision making really important and complicated than things that are either too hard or too easy based off of auction house usage. =/ seems a silly way to go. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On May 22 2012 23:32 aksfjh wrote: Each point of armor will make you take X more hits at Y raw damage. It takes the same amount of armor to get from 0 to 50% as 50% to 75%. I don't know about the dodge diminishing returns, but I bet Blizzard would implement it (if not already) if people got too close to 100%. And again, if a monster hits for 170k against 50k health and 70% reduction, that's still a 1 shot, even if 9/10 hits are dodged, and that's RIDICULOUS amount of gear. Well, obviously there are dimnishing returns on the values needed to attain a certain percentage, but dodge obviously works the same way, it's not like 100 dex gives you 100% dodge, I'm sure it scales the exact same way (and I'm sure it's identical for resistances from int). Point being that it's completely equal, barbarians whine that monks get defensive from their main stats (dex), when barbarians also get defense from their main stats (str). One could definitely make the case that monks also get a lot of armor from gear while barbarians do not get extra dex from gear (unless they gear for it), but I don't think that's accurate, I'm sure most monks have much less damage reduction from armor than barbarians do. In fact, I think most classes, with builds made for it, have more or less the same damage reduction, if 70% is around max for a barbarian, I'm sure it is for a monk as well. As a wizard in act 1 inferno, I have about 55% damage reduction, and that's running with a shield. | ||
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[Crimson]Bason
China161 Posts
On May 22 2012 23:42 TheYango wrote: Additionally, there's also the fact that Armor is scaled to enemy level. Note how when you hover over your armor, it gives damage reduction vs. enemies of your level? This starts to burn really hard through Inferno, because Inferno mobs are treated as being above level 60, meaning that the further you go, the worse your armor performs compared to the advertised % damage reduction. By contrast, Dodge doesn't suffer the same issue. Your dodge chance is always the advertised dodge chance, regardless of enemy level. the only way to fix this game is to redesign 80% of the game... basically a completely new game... the stat system is broken the linear increase in stat is the only factor distinguishing u from someone else (boring and its the lazy way to balance), the skill system is broken (they promised billions of builds... there are basically only a few viable ones with just primary and secondary attacks and everthing else in defensive cooldowns, the items are broken (anything better than legendaries and all are dull and not unique in any way only depends on higher dps or higher vita or prefered stat. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 22 2012 23:32 aksfjh wrote: Each point of armor will make you take X more hits at Y raw damage. It takes the same amount of armor to get from 0 to 50% as 50% to 75%. I don't know about the dodge diminishing returns, but I bet Blizzard would implement it (if not already) if people got too close to 100%. And again, if a monster hits for 170k against 50k health and 70% reduction, that's still a 1 shot, even if 9/10 hits are dodged, and that's RIDICULOUS amount of gear. it always takes the same amount of armor to reduce the damage you take by the same %age. thats not a diminishing return. going from 0->50% is the same as going from 98%->99% in terms of the amount of extra hits you need to survive, armor does not having a diminishing return, it just looks like it does if you dont think about it. this has been gone over 100 times  On May 22 2012 23:44 Crushgroove wrote: Lots of balance whining here can be attributed to Blizzard's inability to create anything that is intellectually challenging. This is the same thing that began happening in wow after the game was sort of figured out 5 or 6 years ago. NEW BOSS/ELITE IS HARD BECAUSE [numbers] is a bad way to go, because there is a really really small sweet spot where its challenging. Its either next to impossible and un-fun because you just insta-die, or its really really really easy because you got more gear. I'd rather see things that make decision making really important and complicated than things that are either too hard or too easy based off of auction house usage. =/ seems a silly way to go. i made a post to the exact same effect almost 2 years ago at the launch of cata with the new 'hard' heroics. i pointed out that numbers =/= difficulty and gear scaling would ruin the game again. and i was proved right even though all the idiots who played wow couldnt see it coming. more abilties you need to avoid, less time to react (although still possible) all make a game harder, hits for 90% of your health just makes the game stupid but people seem to think 'thats how diablo is', but i dont agree. i think d2 was like that because back in 2000s it was ok for games to be kinda bad because the industry was smaller, less well informed designers and harder to make an ai/ui that was usable. nowadays you expect so much more and it feels like blizz took many bad parts of d2 and imported them into d3 purely so people felt like its a 'proper' sequel rather than fixing the stupid/boring parts of the game. gear scaling affecting the game and farming gear can be fine, but that doesnt mean you have to have stupid stuff that kills you over and over, bosses that dont feel like bosses, loot sources that make no sense, a terrible story, terrible writing etc. and yet people get shouted down for pointing out these things because aparently if you love something you cant be critical. | ||
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pure_protoss
152 Posts
On May 22 2012 23:53 [Crimson]Bason wrote: the only way to fix this game is to redesign 80% of the game... basically a completely new game... the stat system is broken the linear increase in stat is the only factor distinguishing u from someone else (boring and its the lazy way to balance), the skill system is broken (they promised billions of builds... there are basically only a few viable ones with just primary and secondary attacks and everthing else in defensive cooldowns, the items are broken (anything better than legendaries and all are dull and not unique in any way only depends on higher dps or higher vita or prefered stat. I can't agree more with what you said sir...The scaling of item is boring...The fact that most classes uses the same optimal builds is boring, the fact that the champions are stronger than bosses is stupid etc etc...It's like the Diablo3 development team were too busy playing diablo2 for 10 years that the new game they made is just a pale version of diablo2 with better graphics... Also, can we just go back to battle.net 1? bnet 2.0 is trash...they should of known after all the complaints on sc2 ui... | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
One solution i guess would be to add more active damage reducing abilities and making it so that good players could overcome bad gear by perfectly rotating through all his defensive abilities. But that would essentially make that class a pure tank (like WoW), and Im pretty sure Blizz didnt want the standard tank-healer-dps setup in D3. And it does bring other drawback to it, for example it might make tanks required and make it impossible without one, and it also might make the class much less popular (traditionally players very much prefer dps roles over tank roles). So to avoid that Blizz took the road of making all classes dps classes. Which brings us back to the initial problem with melee either being able to tank the damage or not again.... | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On May 22 2012 23:55 turdburgler wrote: it always takes the same amount of armor to reduce the damage you take by the same %age. thats not a diminishing return. going from 0->50% is the same as going from 98%->99% in terms of the amount of extra hits you need to survive, armor does not having a diminishing return, it just looks like it does if you dont think about it. this has been gone over 100 times i made a post to the exact same effect almost 2 years ago at the launch of cata with the new 'hard' heroics. i pointed out that numbers =/= difficulty and gear scaling would ruin the game again. and i was proved right even though all the idiots who played wow couldnt see it coming. more abilties you need to avoid, less time to react (although still possible) all make a game harder, hits for 90% of your health just makes the game stupid but people seem to think 'thats how diablo is', but i dont agree. i think d2 was like that because back in 2000s it was ok for games to be kinda bad because the industry was smaller, less well informed designers and harder to make an ai/ui that was usable. nowadays you expect so much more and it feels like blizz took many bad parts of d2 and imported them into d3 purely so people felt like its a 'proper' sequel rather than fixing the stupid/boring parts of the game. gear scaling affecting the game and farming gear can be fine, but that doesnt mean you have to have stupid stuff that kills you over and over, bosses that dont feel like bosses, loot sources that make no sense, a terrible story, terrible writing etc. and yet people get shouted down for pointing out these things because aparently if you love something you cant be critical. In most cases, diminishing returns is really just a way to describe stats being less beneficial with respect to the way they are displayed. In this sense, the amount of armor needed to get to 30% isn't double of the armor to get to 15%. Also, I guess the solution would be to give more abilities to bosses at different levels, as well as more exclusive affixes to champions. | ||
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Muggs
United States148 Posts
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[Crimson]Bason
China161 Posts
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Darkcaster
United Kingdom11 Posts
same with Sc2 why did they have to regress and not progress on things that were well done in the prequels? all blizzard games have be going backwards and their bnet and chatting interface is like way worse than 10 years ago... Ok can you please tell me how Sc2 has "regressed"? The battlenet interface for it is much better than sc1 and the gameplay is much more balanced than in BW where they didny correct any balancing issues. For diablo 3 i feel that blizzard should have put some more tactics into bosses. Also some of the ablities become useless later on so i think they should have scaled them appropriately. | ||
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HolydaKing
21253 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:21 [Crimson]Bason wrote: they will have to redo the whole game because those are not things patches fix... patches fix balance and bugs not whole concepts of design... thats for a total new game... they would have to wipe out every character because all the items that are already on the market is way too strong and available to anyway and very cheap. that's the problem of the AH and no bind on equip mechanic. well well, the game is new and blizzard WILL definitely change much. | ||
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[Crimson]Bason
China161 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:22 Darkcaster wrote: Ok can you please tell me how Sc2 has "regressed"? The battlenet interface for it is much better than sc1 and the gameplay is much more balanced than in BW where they didny correct any balancing issues. For diablo 3 i feel that blizzard should have put some more tactics into bosses. Also some of the ablities become useless later on so i think they should have scaled them appropriately. you come in TL saying sc2 bnet interface bnet 0.2 is better than bnet 1.0?? and saying sc2 is mor balance than sc1 is a joke wow.... hahaha i cant stop laughing... why did sc-bw have a proleague and pro scene for 10+ years if it wasnt balanced? it was the MOST balanced game by far ... Are you serious... | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
Would you really like to be able to tank everything by now? What if you could? Wouldnt it feel pretty crappy to be able to level up and gear up your char enough to tank anything the game had to offer one week after release? To me, it seems like a it would remove a lot of incentive to keep playing your character. Gratz, you're done, you can sit in any inferno-elite packs or inferno-diablo face and feel comfortable, what are you gonna do now? Farm gear so he dies slightly faster or so that you take even less damage? Thats doesnt sound too fun tbh. I imagine farming gear might be a lot more rewarding as melee than ranged. Ranged already solo content, but they're seemingly dependant on using the Wizard armor or smoke screen. And no matter if you gear up your DH/Wiz from 30k damage to 60k damage, you're still gonna be dependant on the same abilities, only that mobs will die faster. On the contrary, wouldnt it be quite rewarding to actually farm money/gear for weeks or maybe months to come, only to actually one day be able to solo that content you've have so much trouble with? As I said, Im not really saying its a solution or that things are perfect as they are, but Im trying to offer a different opinion and opening some peoples eyes to that things might not be as terrible as it seems. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:19 Muggs wrote: I think in the long run that itemization is going to have to get completely overhauled. The fact that blues can be this much better than legendary weapons is just ridiculous (1k dps blue 1-hander vs. 740 dps Azurewrath). They really just need to fix the item rolls to narrow the ranges and prevent some affixes from being too beneficial. The best example is the +4917419 lightning/fire/poison/etc. damage. With the ridiculous amount of % increase of damage from main stats (and attack speed), each point of damage is worth so much more than each point of main stat. They need to increase all weapon damage by about 30% and remove the +elemental damage affixes (or just roll them into "weapon does this element damage"). | ||
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pure_protoss
152 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:22 Darkcaster wrote: Ok can you please tell me how Sc2 has "regressed"? The battlenet interface for it is much better than sc1 and the gameplay is much more balanced than in BW where they didny correct any balancing issues. For diablo 3 i feel that blizzard should have put some more tactics into bosses. Also some of the ablities become useless later on so i think they should have scaled them appropriately. There was open chat room without any maximum numbers of players in bnet 1.0...You could name your game and put a password on it...you could kick someone from a game more easily...And that is compared to sc1...but wc3 was also on bnet 1.0... Therefore, there should be a automated tourney system, more statistics (your winning% depending on your races and against who your best etc)...you shouldnt need sc2 gears for that... In-game streaming should be there already too... Watching replays with friends should be possible etc.. | ||
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