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On June 20 2012 03:04 Premier wrote:
What are you guys doing to compensate for the nerf to attack speed? I'm gearing out my Wizard farming Act 1 inferno, had 26k DPS and got shot down to 22k... what stats should I be getting?
Whatever you want and/or whatever jives better with your build/playstyle. The point of the AS nerf was to equal the playing field for different damage stats for gearing up your character.
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Equal? More like nerf speed to the ground.
Currently for my (admittedly well geared) wizard,
1% crit is providing 1800 on-screen damage (can go up to 10 on an item)
1% crit damage is about 300 damage (can go up to 50-60 on an item)
1% attack speed is about 800 damage (can go up to 19? 20? on an item)
With the fact that speed usually spawns up to double the amount of crit on items, it was more or less balanced for an endgame setup. Now that they have roughly equal spawn amounts (rings are weird), there's almost no point in focusing on speed, it's just more of a flavor/extra stat now.
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Why would a 1% chance to do 50% more damage, give you more DPS than a +1% to attack speed (=+1% damage)?
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What are you guys doing to compensate for the nerf to attack speed? I'm gearing out my Wizard farming Act 1 inferno, had 26k DPS and got shot down to 22k... what stats should I be getting?
On your gear level IAS still should be the stat to look for. Crit only becomes better item budget wise with a lot of Crit damage. And I doubt that you can afford that yet, if you have been farming act1.
3+crit/20+ crit damage/ 70+ rings for example, which are better than plain 7ias/70 int rings are at least 4-5 mill on the ah, so ye stick with that ias/70 rings.
Mobs should have lower hp too, so the nerf shouldnt hurt too much.
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You should look for whatever stat of ias/crit/crit dmg/int/base damage will give you the most DPS. The only difference is that now, the answer isn't pretty much always ias.
And of course, if you're obscenely rich nothing has changed - you want items with all of the above 
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Why would a 1% chance to do 50% more damage, give you more DPS than a +1% to attack speed (=+1% damage)?
Because its not always 50% or havent you noticed the +crit damage affix till now ?
For high end crit >>> ias now even on rings, but low geared wizards IAS is still the best.
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On June 20 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:
Equal? More like nerf speed to the ground.
Currently for my (admittedly well geared) wizard,
1% crit is providing 1800 on-screen damage (can go up to 10 on an item)
1% crit damage is about 300 damage (can go up to 50-60 on an item)
1% attack speed is about 800 damage (can go up to 19? 20? on an item)
With the fact that speed usually spawns up to double the amount of crit on items, it was more or less balanced for an endgame setup. Now that they have roughly equal spawn amounts (rings are weird), there's almost no point in focusing on speed, it's just more of a flavor/extra stat now.
It was apparent to everyone that AS was the king of DPS stats by a landslide pre-patch, so no in-depth look into AS/crit comparisons was done because it was not needed, AS reigned supreme in every and all scenarios. Now people have to figure out the breakpoints because your gear/build can have a huge effect on the AS/crit comparison. Your numbers comparison has no context without your gear/stats.
Crit/AS isn't all that exactly 1:1 comparable from an itemization standpoint they don't roll on the all the same item slots or in the same proportional ratios. Only gloves and accessories can roll with AS/crit/crit dmg. Crit can go up to 10 only on gloves, the next highest you can get is on bracers and helm at 6%, which doesn't have AS or crit dmg (outside of uniques). AS/crit dmg also behaves differently on weapons than on other gear. That are numerous factors at play here. People won't really know where AS stands until people really start to look more in-depth.
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On June 20 2012 03:37 Kenpark wrote:Show nested quote +Why would a 1% chance to do 50% more damage, give you more DPS than a +1% to attack speed (=+1% damage)? Because its not always 50% or havent you noticed the +crit damage affix till now ? For high end crit >>> ias now even on rings, but low geared wizards IAS is still the best.
Of course I know it's not always 50%. But comparing the numbers is utterly worthless when they aren't on an even standing. *obviously* having +crit damage will make +crit better, at a faster rate than it will improve ias/int etc.
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On June 20 2012 03:04 Premier wrote:
What are you guys doing to compensate for the nerf to attack speed? I'm gearing out my Wizard farming Act 1 inferno, had 26k DPS and got shot down to 22k... what stats should I be getting?
Nothing, I run AO and thus all my damage is based on single-hit power, which is int/crit related. Ias is just a kiting luxury.
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Ias has always been a kiting luxury. Now just more so unless you ran blizzard/venom hydra. Also, they fixed the dmg display for force weapon so it correctly shows 15% rather than 30%. Only did 15% dmg anyway prior. I get 2k more DPS from force weapon than I do from familiar + sparkflint, but now i use sparkflint for the crit chance for more arcane on crit.
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On June 20 2012 03:37 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:
Equal? More like nerf speed to the ground.
Currently for my (admittedly well geared) wizard,
1% crit is providing 1800 on-screen damage (can go up to 10 on an item)
1% crit damage is about 300 damage (can go up to 50-60 on an item)
1% attack speed is about 800 damage (can go up to 19? 20? on an item)
With the fact that speed usually spawns up to double the amount of crit on items, it was more or less balanced for an endgame setup. Now that they have roughly equal spawn amounts (rings are weird), there's almost no point in focusing on speed, it's just more of a flavor/extra stat now.
It was apparent to everyone that AS was the king of DPS stats by a landslide pre-patch, so no in-depth look into AS/crit comparisons was done because it was not needed, AS reigned supreme in every and all scenarios. Now people have to figure out the breakpoints because your gear/build can have a huge effect on the AS/crit comparison. Your numbers comparison has no context without your gear/stats. Crit/AS isn't all that exactly 1:1 comparable from an itemization standpoint they don't roll on the all the same item slots or in the same proportional ratios. Only gloves and accessories can roll with AS/crit/crit dmg. Crit can go up to 10 only on gloves, the next highest you can get is on bracers and helm at 6%, which doesn't have AS or crit dmg (outside of uniques). AS/crit dmg also behaves differently on weapons than on other gear. That are numerous factors at play here. People won't really know where AS stands until people really start to look more in-depth.
Well, looking at my numbers, AS is obviously not the king of all dps stats pre-patch.
Here's the list of max values crit and AS could spawn on items pre-patch (non-legendary)
Helm - 6% crit
Neck - 10% crit 19% attack speed
Gloves - 10% crit 19% attack speed
Bracer - 6% crit
Rings - 5% crit 17% attack speed
Offhand - 10% crit
Weapon - 25?30?% attack speed
With my gear, the maximum amount of damage from either crit or attack speed on each item that could spawn both is roughly equal, which to me, constitutes balance. Now that attack speed is nerfed to half of what it was, there isn't a chance in hell an attack speed item could beat a crit item for a well geared character unless the attack speed item has a comparable amount of crit on it as well.
Before, we had a situation where attack speed was better than crit (sometimes by a lot for really undergeared chars) but as you gained crit damage, the value of crit slowly crept up and surpassed attack speed. It created interesting dynamics as to when to focus on what stat as your gear improved.
Now? It's simply "get crit, attack speed is a bonus." That's it. Crit is better than attack speed in all situations as soon as you have a socket on your weapon - which everyone should. No choice, it's just crit is flat out better, which seems a bit silly to me.
Why would a 1% chance to do 50% more damage, give you more DPS than a +1% to attack speed (=+1% damage)?
Because it's a 1% chance to do 348% more damage for me 
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On June 20 2012 03:58 Phael wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 03:37 Skyro wrote:On June 20 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:
Equal? More like nerf speed to the ground.
Currently for my (admittedly well geared) wizard,
1% crit is providing 1800 on-screen damage (can go up to 10 on an item)
1% crit damage is about 300 damage (can go up to 50-60 on an item)
1% attack speed is about 800 damage (can go up to 19? 20? on an item)
With the fact that speed usually spawns up to double the amount of crit on items, it was more or less balanced for an endgame setup. Now that they have roughly equal spawn amounts (rings are weird), there's almost no point in focusing on speed, it's just more of a flavor/extra stat now.
It was apparent to everyone that AS was the king of DPS stats by a landslide pre-patch, so no in-depth look into AS/crit comparisons was done because it was not needed, AS reigned supreme in every and all scenarios. Now people have to figure out the breakpoints because your gear/build can have a huge effect on the AS/crit comparison. Your numbers comparison has no context without your gear/stats. Crit/AS isn't all that exactly 1:1 comparable from an itemization standpoint they don't roll on the all the same item slots or in the same proportional ratios. Only gloves and accessories can roll with AS/crit/crit dmg. Crit can go up to 10 only on gloves, the next highest you can get is on bracers and helm at 6%, which doesn't have AS or crit dmg (outside of uniques). AS/crit dmg also behaves differently on weapons than on other gear. That are numerous factors at play here. People won't really know where AS stands until people really start to look more in-depth. Well, looking at my numbers, AS is obviously not the king of all dps stats pre-patch. Here's the list of max values crit and AS could spawn on items pre-patch (non-legendary) Helm - 6% crit Neck - 10% crit 19% attack speed Gloves - 10% crit 19% attack speed Bracer - 6% crit Rings - 5% crit 17% attack speed Offhand - 10% crit Weapon - 25?30?% attack speed With my gear, the maximum amount of damage from either crit or attack speed on each item that could spawn both is roughly equal, which to me, constitutes balance. Now that attack speed is nerfed to half of what it was, there isn't a chance in hell an attack speed item could beat a crit item for a well geared character unless the attack speed item has a comparable amount of crit on it as well. Before, we had a situation where attack speed was better than crit (sometimes by a lot for really undergeared chars) but as you gained crit damage, the value of crit slowly crept up and surpassed attack speed. It created interesting dynamics as to when to focus on what stat as your gear improved. Now? It's simply "get crit, attack speed is a bonus." That's it. Crit is better than attack speed in all situations as soon as you have a socket on your weapon - which everyone should. No choice, it's just crit is flat out better, which seems a bit silly to me. Show nested quote +Why would a 1% chance to do 50% more damage, give you more DPS than a +1% to attack speed (=+1% damage)? Because it's a 1% chance to do 348% more damage for me
That may be the case for you but it was not the case for everybody pre-patch. I stacked crit because I enjoyed using blizzard and AS did not affect blizzard damage, and 1% AS would boost my DPS by a LOT more than .5% crit, and I wouldn't consider myself undergeared with 60k DPS (which might not seem like a lot but that's 60k DPS w/o any IAS gear at all). And like I said gear can make a huge difference, for example choice of 1h/oh or 2h'er also have a big affect due to how the +damage modifiers work. Your situation does not equal everybody else's situations. You may be in the upper echelon that most aren't, but those in the upper echelon why does it matter because you're going to get both stats regardless.
Now it may be that the nerf was too big. My point was that we won't really know until things shake out a little bit more. Another example is AS and crit behaves differently with beam-spells, with AS causing more burst damage but at a higher AP drain, but with beam spells being virtually non-existent in inferno it wasn't given much thought. That might change with the inferno nerf if it creates more build diversity. Who knows how this will all play out?
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Attack speed did affect blizzard damage.
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On June 20 2012 04:14 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Attack speed did affect blizzard damage.
It affects blizzard cast speed animation, but not the damage. I have tested this and others as well and reached the same conclusion. I'd be happy to see conflicting tests however.
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On June 20 2012 04:11 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 03:58 Phael wrote:On June 20 2012 03:37 Skyro wrote:On June 20 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:
Equal? More like nerf speed to the ground.
Currently for my (admittedly well geared) wizard,
1% crit is providing 1800 on-screen damage (can go up to 10 on an item)
1% crit damage is about 300 damage (can go up to 50-60 on an item)
1% attack speed is about 800 damage (can go up to 19? 20? on an item)
With the fact that speed usually spawns up to double the amount of crit on items, it was more or less balanced for an endgame setup. Now that they have roughly equal spawn amounts (rings are weird), there's almost no point in focusing on speed, it's just more of a flavor/extra stat now.
It was apparent to everyone that AS was the king of DPS stats by a landslide pre-patch, so no in-depth look into AS/crit comparisons was done because it was not needed, AS reigned supreme in every and all scenarios. Now people have to figure out the breakpoints because your gear/build can have a huge effect on the AS/crit comparison. Your numbers comparison has no context without your gear/stats. Crit/AS isn't all that exactly 1:1 comparable from an itemization standpoint they don't roll on the all the same item slots or in the same proportional ratios. Only gloves and accessories can roll with AS/crit/crit dmg. Crit can go up to 10 only on gloves, the next highest you can get is on bracers and helm at 6%, which doesn't have AS or crit dmg (outside of uniques). AS/crit dmg also behaves differently on weapons than on other gear. That are numerous factors at play here. People won't really know where AS stands until people really start to look more in-depth. Well, looking at my numbers, AS is obviously not the king of all dps stats pre-patch. Here's the list of max values crit and AS could spawn on items pre-patch (non-legendary) Helm - 6% crit Neck - 10% crit 19% attack speed Gloves - 10% crit 19% attack speed Bracer - 6% crit Rings - 5% crit 17% attack speed Offhand - 10% crit Weapon - 25?30?% attack speed With my gear, the maximum amount of damage from either crit or attack speed on each item that could spawn both is roughly equal, which to me, constitutes balance. Now that attack speed is nerfed to half of what it was, there isn't a chance in hell an attack speed item could beat a crit item for a well geared character unless the attack speed item has a comparable amount of crit on it as well. Before, we had a situation where attack speed was better than crit (sometimes by a lot for really undergeared chars) but as you gained crit damage, the value of crit slowly crept up and surpassed attack speed. It created interesting dynamics as to when to focus on what stat as your gear improved. Now? It's simply "get crit, attack speed is a bonus." That's it. Crit is better than attack speed in all situations as soon as you have a socket on your weapon - which everyone should. No choice, it's just crit is flat out better, which seems a bit silly to me. Why would a 1% chance to do 50% more damage, give you more DPS than a +1% to attack speed (=+1% damage)? Because it's a 1% chance to do 348% more damage for me That may be the case for you but it was not the case for everybody pre-patch. I stacked crit because I enjoyed using blizzard and AS did not affect blizzard damage, and 1% AS would boost my DPS by a LOT more than .5% crit, and I wouldn't consider myself undergeared with 60k DPS (which might not seem like a lot but that's 60k DPS w/o any IAS gear at all). And like I said gear can make a huge difference, for example choice of 1h/oh or 2h'er also have a big affect due to how the +damage modifiers work. Your situation does not equal everybody else's situations. You may be in the upper echelon that most aren't, but those in the upper echelon why does it matter because you're going to get both stats regardless. Now it may be that the nerf was too big. My point was that we won't really know until things shake out a little bit more. Another example is AS and crit behaves differently with beam-spells, with AS causing more burst damage but at a higher AP drain, but with beam spells being virtually non-existent in inferno it wasn't given much thought. That might change with the inferno nerf if it creates more build diversity. Who knows how this will all play out?
No, it wasn't the same for everyone pre-patch, which is good because stat diversity is awesome. You stacked crit and had 60k. Lesser geared wizards stacked haste and were around 40-80k. I stacked both and had 150k. Each and every time I looked for an upgrade to a slot that had both attackspeed and crit, I had to pull out the spreadsheet and work the numbers.
That's gone. There's no need to check breakpoints or stats ... it IS the same for everyone post patch now. If you have a socket in your weapon (or even if the weapon itself had more than ~40% crit damage), there is no situation where attack speed is better than crit unless paralysis builds happen to be #1.
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On June 20 2012 04:48 Phael wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:11 Skyro wrote:On June 20 2012 03:58 Phael wrote:On June 20 2012 03:37 Skyro wrote:On June 20 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:
Equal? More like nerf speed to the ground.
Currently for my (admittedly well geared) wizard,
1% crit is providing 1800 on-screen damage (can go up to 10 on an item)
1% crit damage is about 300 damage (can go up to 50-60 on an item)
1% attack speed is about 800 damage (can go up to 19? 20? on an item)
With the fact that speed usually spawns up to double the amount of crit on items, it was more or less balanced for an endgame setup. Now that they have roughly equal spawn amounts (rings are weird), there's almost no point in focusing on speed, it's just more of a flavor/extra stat now.
It was apparent to everyone that AS was the king of DPS stats by a landslide pre-patch, so no in-depth look into AS/crit comparisons was done because it was not needed, AS reigned supreme in every and all scenarios. Now people have to figure out the breakpoints because your gear/build can have a huge effect on the AS/crit comparison. Your numbers comparison has no context without your gear/stats. Crit/AS isn't all that exactly 1:1 comparable from an itemization standpoint they don't roll on the all the same item slots or in the same proportional ratios. Only gloves and accessories can roll with AS/crit/crit dmg. Crit can go up to 10 only on gloves, the next highest you can get is on bracers and helm at 6%, which doesn't have AS or crit dmg (outside of uniques). AS/crit dmg also behaves differently on weapons than on other gear. That are numerous factors at play here. People won't really know where AS stands until people really start to look more in-depth. Well, looking at my numbers, AS is obviously not the king of all dps stats pre-patch. Here's the list of max values crit and AS could spawn on items pre-patch (non-legendary) Helm - 6% crit Neck - 10% crit 19% attack speed Gloves - 10% crit 19% attack speed Bracer - 6% crit Rings - 5% crit 17% attack speed Offhand - 10% crit Weapon - 25?30?% attack speed With my gear, the maximum amount of damage from either crit or attack speed on each item that could spawn both is roughly equal, which to me, constitutes balance. Now that attack speed is nerfed to half of what it was, there isn't a chance in hell an attack speed item could beat a crit item for a well geared character unless the attack speed item has a comparable amount of crit on it as well. Before, we had a situation where attack speed was better than crit (sometimes by a lot for really undergeared chars) but as you gained crit damage, the value of crit slowly crept up and surpassed attack speed. It created interesting dynamics as to when to focus on what stat as your gear improved. Now? It's simply "get crit, attack speed is a bonus." That's it. Crit is better than attack speed in all situations as soon as you have a socket on your weapon - which everyone should. No choice, it's just crit is flat out better, which seems a bit silly to me. Why would a 1% chance to do 50% more damage, give you more DPS than a +1% to attack speed (=+1% damage)? Because it's a 1% chance to do 348% more damage for me That may be the case for you but it was not the case for everybody pre-patch. I stacked crit because I enjoyed using blizzard and AS did not affect blizzard damage, and 1% AS would boost my DPS by a LOT more than .5% crit, and I wouldn't consider myself undergeared with 60k DPS (which might not seem like a lot but that's 60k DPS w/o any IAS gear at all). And like I said gear can make a huge difference, for example choice of 1h/oh or 2h'er also have a big affect due to how the +damage modifiers work. Your situation does not equal everybody else's situations. You may be in the upper echelon that most aren't, but those in the upper echelon why does it matter because you're going to get both stats regardless. Now it may be that the nerf was too big. My point was that we won't really know until things shake out a little bit more. Another example is AS and crit behaves differently with beam-spells, with AS causing more burst damage but at a higher AP drain, but with beam spells being virtually non-existent in inferno it wasn't given much thought. That might change with the inferno nerf if it creates more build diversity. Who knows how this will all play out? No, it wasn't the same for everyone pre-patch, which is good because stat diversity is awesome. You stacked crit and had 60k. Lesser geared wizards stacked haste and were around 40-80k. I stacked both and had 150k. Each and every time I looked for an upgrade to a slot that had both attackspeed and crit, I had to pull out the spreadsheet and work the numbers. That's gone. There's no need to check breakpoints or stats ... it IS the same for everyone post patch now. If you have a socket in your weapon (or even if the weapon itself had more than ~40% crit damage), there is no situation where attack speed is better than crit unless paralysis builds happen to be #1.
Yeah I don't know what gearing is like for the >100k club, which I'd guess is like what, 0.000001% of the population? The point was that for the vast majority of people's gearing decisions AS > crit in nearly any scenario, with the very top echelon being the exception to the rule. You are the exception to the rule. At normal gear levels AS > crit by a very wide margin, so yes, it was the same for *nearly* everybody prepatch. I'm guessing if you were >100k you had both AS and crit and your gearing decision was based comparing the levels of each, not a "I'm going to stack pure crit" or "I'm going to stack pure AS." That's not build diversity, that is just damage optimization. Stat diversity would be focusing on one stat very very heavily for the sake of your build or playstyle, and not taking a severe damage penalty because of that choice. In my personal example I estimated I could have easily broken 80k if I went AS gear if I spent the amount on crit gear I did for AS, but I choose to go/stay crit because of playstyle and after blizz said they were going to nerf AS. That is a severe DPS hit for my playstyle preference, and promotes LESS stat diversity.
Post patch I don't know my own situation yet since I'm at work. You could be right post-patch that crit rules supreme, but I'd like to hear from people who don't have insane gear like you do.
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AS only > crit on character screen damage, not real-world damage, prepatch.
Arcane orb spammers easily can tell because they're running out of AP constantly with a cast speed of over 1 aps. Blizzard and hydra both ignored attack speed in their damage calculations. You yourself concluded that speed didn't affect blizzard damage, so how would a 80k dps speed build do more damage than a 60k dps crit build with blizzard? It didn't, and thus promoted stat diversity where you went crit.
The only (commonly used) spells that are positively affected by speed are magic missile and piercing orb, both of which, even if used, represent a fairly low percentage of overall damage.
So no, speed was not hands down better than crit. It may have been on the character screen, but in practice, speed didn't have half of its stated benefit.
Crit was already more or less equal right off the bat, and depending on gearing and choice, you decided on which stat to go after and such. Now, it's not a choice; speed is just more of a novelty stat now.
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Nonsense, because they are not mutually exclusive.
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When you are on a budget, they are. Have you seen how much gloves that have decent rolls of int, crit, crit damage, and attack speed go for? They are like 100 mil+ (I would know, I have one). My weapon with damage, damage %, int, crit damage, socket is worth around 50-100 mil. Imagine how much that would go for with the 6th modifier as attack speed.
Right now, unless you have billions of gold, you really get to pick only 3 stats on each piece of gear, +1 lesser stat perhaps. In each slot that you can have attack speed in now, there are 3 better choices. In other words, you can safely ignore speed for gearing.
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Also, that other mod could have been something like allresist - ias/crit chance/crit damage aren't the only mods in competition for use (in the case of jewelry and gloves).
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EPT
