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On May 05 2012 04:00 Klockan3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, next time people discuss new interviews they should link them. It sounded like he drew that conclusion based on the fact that enrage timers exist. On May 05 2012 03:58 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +And there are items that ONLY drop at level 61, at level 62 and so on; and they're not small number! There's a whole tier of armour in each one. Show nested quote +So even to be able to play viably in Inferno, you're going to have to play and fight in Hell for a little while, to get your items up to the quality so that you'll be able to fight through. And then to move from Act to Act you'll need to do that. We're seriously going to start this argument of whether the Act 1 tier will be better than Act 5 tier??? That interview wasn't linked or cited anywhere, please understand that you sounded like a moron there because it sounded like you drew that conclusion based on the ausgamer interview.
I didn't draw a conclusion based on enrage timers. It was a given, you don't have to be a game designer to know that enrage timers is an easy way to add difficulty and a grind requirement to a game. You assume that only the higher end bosses will have enrage timers which is an understandable but bad assumption.
It was my fault that I didn't separate my thoughts or quote the post i was replying to as I deemed it unnecessary but I guess I'll do that next time.
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On May 05 2012 04:09 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:00 Klockan3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, next time people discuss new interviews they should link them. It sounded like he drew that conclusion based on the fact that enrage timers exist. On May 05 2012 03:58 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +And there are items that ONLY drop at level 61, at level 62 and so on; and they're not small number! There's a whole tier of armour in each one. Show nested quote +So even to be able to play viably in Inferno, you're going to have to play and fight in Hell for a little while, to get your items up to the quality so that you'll be able to fight through. And then to move from Act to Act you'll need to do that. We're seriously going to start this argument of whether the Act 1 tier will be better than Act 5 tier??? That interview wasn't linked or cited anywhere, please understand that you sounded like a moron there because it sounded like you drew that conclusion based on the ausgamer interview. I didn't draw a conclusion based on enrage timers. It was a given, you don't have to be a game designer to know that enrage timers is an easy way to add difficulty and a grind requirement to a game. You assume that only the higher end bosses will have enrage timers which is an understandable but bad assumption. It was my fault that I didn't separate my thoughts or quote the post i was replying to as I deemed it unnecessary but I guess I'll do that next time.
One thing that I think people are missing that gear checks apply to a standard playstyle. With enough patience gear shortcomings can be overcome. There is a post on (I think) diablo.incgamers,com where a guy describes his run through the whole game (yes, beating Baal on Hell) with an amazon that put points only into the passives tree and wearing only cracked/low quality items. I'm not saying kiting Lister for 45 minutes is fun, I'm saying it's doable, and I sincerely doubt that a tier below what's required gear wise means you won't be able to play through an act, it just means you won't be able to rolfstomp (exaggeration of course) anything that crosses your path, you'll just have to put more thought into an encounter than shift+spam left click.
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On May 05 2012 04:17 m00nchile wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 04:09 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:00 Klockan3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, next time people discuss new interviews they should link them. It sounded like he drew that conclusion based on the fact that enrage timers exist. On May 05 2012 03:58 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +And there are items that ONLY drop at level 61, at level 62 and so on; and they're not small number! There's a whole tier of armour in each one. Show nested quote +So even to be able to play viably in Inferno, you're going to have to play and fight in Hell for a little while, to get your items up to the quality so that you'll be able to fight through. And then to move from Act to Act you'll need to do that. We're seriously going to start this argument of whether the Act 1 tier will be better than Act 5 tier??? That interview wasn't linked or cited anywhere, please understand that you sounded like a moron there because it sounded like you drew that conclusion based on the ausgamer interview. I didn't draw a conclusion based on enrage timers. It was a given, you don't have to be a game designer to know that enrage timers is an easy way to add difficulty and a grind requirement to a game. You assume that only the higher end bosses will have enrage timers which is an understandable but bad assumption. It was my fault that I didn't separate my thoughts or quote the post i was replying to as I deemed it unnecessary but I guess I'll do that next time. One thing that I think people are missing that gear checks apply to a standard playstyle. With enough patience gear shortcomings can be overcome. There is a post on (I think) diablo.incgamers,com where a guy describes his run through the whole game (yes, beating Baal on Hell) with an amazon that put points only into the passives tree and wearing only cracked/low quality items. I'm not saying kiting Lister for 45 minutes is fun, I'm saying it's doable, and I sincerely doubt that a tier below what's required gear wise means you won't be able to play through an act, it just means you won't be able to rolfstomp (exaggeration of course) anything that crosses your path, you'll just have to put more thought into an encounter than shift+spam left click.
Whether it would be doable or not without a certain level of gear is entirely dependent on how Blizzard designs the encounters. If boss just disappears after x minutes and reappears with full health, there's simply no way of beating it without appropriate level of gear, a group, or a clever use of game mechanics (which in most cases is not intended) since you won't have enough DPS.
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I think perhaps you're underestimating the effect that player skill can have on your time-on-target in Diablo style games. It's often forgotten that the time it takes you to kill a boss is dependent not only on your DPS, but also on the percentage of time you spend actually attacking vs kiting around.
Just as a very basic example, I can imagine a case where a very skilled Wizard with the wormhole rune would be able to maintain a constant distance from a boss while still doing damage by mixing signature spells with teleport casts in quick succession, as opposed to a less skilled wizard who spends a lot more time running because they can't keep the wormhole rune effect up.
Of course, your ability to tank a target and continue DPS'ing is itself gear dependent, but unlike DPS which you can really only control through your build choices and gear, your playstyle can change your time-on-target quite a bit.
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On May 05 2012 05:10 eluv wrote:
I think perhaps you're underestimating the effect that player skill can have on your time-on-target in Diablo style games. It's often forgotten that the time it takes you to kill a boss is dependent not only on your DPS, but also on the percentage of time you spend actually attacking vs kiting around.
Just as a very basic example, I can imagine a case where a very skilled Wizard with the wormhole rune would be able to maintain a constant distance from a boss while still doing damage by mixing signature spells with teleport casts in quick succession, as opposed to a less skilled wizard who spends a lot more time running because they can't keep the wormhole rune effect up.
Of course, your ability to tank a target and continue DPS'ing is itself gear dependent, but unlike DPS which you can really only control through your build choices and gear, your playstyle can change your time-on-target quite a bit.
Player skill has an IMMENSE impact on DPS. Back in my WoW days, there was an affliction warlock who had both gear and full raid buffs. Deals ~1/2 the dps of another warlock with worse gear. My alt warlock in welfare epics did more DPS. There's a video on Youtube somewhere that shows a ~30% dps increase simply by animation canceling to reset swing timers. Upwards of 90% will never utilize this to do anything. The percentage that do will simply deal more damage, despite equivalent gear.
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Outside of some ridiculous exploit, Inferno mode will NOT be beaten within 2 days, or 4 days as some ignorant people claim. Inferno will be scaled to require very very good gear to complete. Getting good enough gear in under a week will be pretty much IMPOSSIBLE. This isn't even taking into account the fight mechanics or any other inferno-only monster abilities. People seem to have this notion that D3 is a casual game and hence the hardest difficulty will be casual as well. The last 2 acts of Inferno are going to be so brutally difficult, they will not be cleared in under a week. It's not that hard for blizzard to change a few numbers here and there to make encounters mathematically impossible. They can always nerf the encounters later on. Buffing Inferno to be harder after it is beaten, on the other hand, is not something they are going to want to do.
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I just hope on normal difficulty the game will be at least somewhat challenging.
Because as a casual gamer I dont plan on playing through the game several times, at least not with the same character, just so that I can play on a higher difficulty level.
I have to say I dont like this system at all where you have to finish the game first just to increase difficulty.
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Some new monster affixes uncovered as well as some other interesting stuff here:
+ Show Spoiler +*** PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE ARE SPOILERS THAT REVEAL POTENTIAL ACT LOCATIONS AND NAMES, AMONGST OTHER THINGS *** + Show Spoiler +
Edit: Ah, link was posted a little earlier.
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On May 05 2012 04:24 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:17 m00nchile wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 04:09 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:00 Klockan3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, next time people discuss new interviews they should link them. It sounded like he drew that conclusion based on the fact that enrage timers exist. On May 05 2012 03:58 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +And there are items that ONLY drop at level 61, at level 62 and so on; and they're not small number! There's a whole tier of armour in each one. Show nested quote +So even to be able to play viably in Inferno, you're going to have to play and fight in Hell for a little while, to get your items up to the quality so that you'll be able to fight through. And then to move from Act to Act you'll need to do that. We're seriously going to start this argument of whether the Act 1 tier will be better than Act 5 tier??? That interview wasn't linked or cited anywhere, please understand that you sounded like a moron there because it sounded like you drew that conclusion based on the ausgamer interview. I didn't draw a conclusion based on enrage timers. It was a given, you don't have to be a game designer to know that enrage timers is an easy way to add difficulty and a grind requirement to a game. You assume that only the higher end bosses will have enrage timers which is an understandable but bad assumption. It was my fault that I didn't separate my thoughts or quote the post i was replying to as I deemed it unnecessary but I guess I'll do that next time. One thing that I think people are missing that gear checks apply to a standard playstyle. With enough patience gear shortcomings can be overcome. There is a post on (I think) diablo.incgamers,com where a guy describes his run through the whole game (yes, beating Baal on Hell) with an amazon that put points only into the passives tree and wearing only cracked/low quality items. I'm not saying kiting Lister for 45 minutes is fun, I'm saying it's doable, and I sincerely doubt that a tier below what's required gear wise means you won't be able to play through an act, it just means you won't be able to rolfstomp (exaggeration of course) anything that crosses your path, you'll just have to put more thought into an encounter than shift+spam left click. Whether it would be doable or not without a certain level of gear is entirely dependent on how Blizzard designs the encounters. If boss just disappears after x minutes and reappears with full health, there's simply no way of beating it without appropriate level of gear, a group, or a clever use of game mechanics (which in most cases is not intended) since you won't have enough DPS.
a boss just disappearing after x minutes is just shitty game design and a gimmicky cockblock for no reason other than to be a cockblock
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well, inferno monsters will have 3-5 times more hp than hell mobs, and deal about 10-13 times more damage, along with many other specific abilities that only show on inferno.
The damage output and hp etc will also increase by the player, but not exactly this much, so it's all extra challenge.
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On May 05 2012 07:15 Ahzz wrote:
well, inferno monsters will have 3-5 times more hp than hell mobs, and deal about 10-13 times more damage, along with many other specific abilities that only show on inferno.
The damage output and hp etc will also increase by the player, but not exactly this much, so it's all extra challenge.
Since it's all relative, I wonder if hell is going to be cruise mode now or if inferno really is going to be that wild.
This whole idea of enraging rare monsters and all the inferno acts dropping a different level of gear has me kind of worried. It sounds like they are really tiering things up.
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On May 05 2012 07:10 NotSorry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:24 skyR wrote:On May 05 2012 04:17 m00nchile wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 04:09 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:00 Klockan3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, next time people discuss new interviews they should link them. It sounded like he drew that conclusion based on the fact that enrage timers exist. On May 05 2012 03:58 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +And there are items that ONLY drop at level 61, at level 62 and so on; and they're not small number! There's a whole tier of armour in each one. Show nested quote +So even to be able to play viably in Inferno, you're going to have to play and fight in Hell for a little while, to get your items up to the quality so that you'll be able to fight through. And then to move from Act to Act you'll need to do that. We're seriously going to start this argument of whether the Act 1 tier will be better than Act 5 tier??? That interview wasn't linked or cited anywhere, please understand that you sounded like a moron there because it sounded like you drew that conclusion based on the ausgamer interview. I didn't draw a conclusion based on enrage timers. It was a given, you don't have to be a game designer to know that enrage timers is an easy way to add difficulty and a grind requirement to a game. You assume that only the higher end bosses will have enrage timers which is an understandable but bad assumption. It was my fault that I didn't separate my thoughts or quote the post i was replying to as I deemed it unnecessary but I guess I'll do that next time. One thing that I think people are missing that gear checks apply to a standard playstyle. With enough patience gear shortcomings can be overcome. There is a post on (I think) diablo.incgamers,com where a guy describes his run through the whole game (yes, beating Baal on Hell) with an amazon that put points only into the passives tree and wearing only cracked/low quality items. I'm not saying kiting Lister for 45 minutes is fun, I'm saying it's doable, and I sincerely doubt that a tier below what's required gear wise means you won't be able to play through an act, it just means you won't be able to rolfstomp (exaggeration of course) anything that crosses your path, you'll just have to put more thought into an encounter than shift+spam left click. Whether it would be doable or not without a certain level of gear is entirely dependent on how Blizzard designs the encounters. If boss just disappears after x minutes and reappears with full health, there's simply no way of beating it without appropriate level of gear, a group, or a clever use of game mechanics (which in most cases is not intended) since you won't have enough DPS. a boss just disappearing after x minutes is just shitty game design and a gimmicky cockblock for no reason other than to be a cockblock
I think most bosses are generally made more interesting and demanding of skill (not less) by addition of hard enrage timers.
What if the boss does nonstop attacks from a varied repetoire of 6 different moves, all with slightly different windup animations that require different dodging movements to avoid, each of which gives a 0.5s window at different points during the animation for you to attack (if you dodged correctly)?
Given a hard "enrage timer", the boss becomes an intricate feat of skill and execution, requiring you to identify, recognise, dodge and counterattack say 50% of the opportunities you are given. You know that if you miss some opportunities, you're going to have to take more risks to do enough dps to bring it down. And you know that if your gear is worse, you're going to have to play better in order to take more of your opportunities to reach the timer.
Without a hard enrage timer, it becomes... almost trivial, you just play ultra safe and grind it down by attrition, with no pressure to hit your windows to attack safely. In addition, if your gear is worse, you don't have to play better (i.e. take more opporunities) - you just have to play for longer. It's just a worse encounter without an enrage timer.
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+ Show Spoiler +Just ball-parking without any guidance, let's take a look at the Demon Hunter and the base Hungering Arrow skill. It seems like the end-game bows have 322 base DPS. Let's say between the weapon and the rest of the gear, there's +400% increased weapon damage. We'll also assume 20% crit chance at +50% damage, so we end up with 1771 damage before stats and skills. Let's also assume 900 Dex for +900% (I hear gems will provide +stats?). With all this, the base Hungering Arrow will do 21K damage per shot. Some of those champion monsters have over a million HP; it'd take over 50 seconds of shooting Hungering Arrow to kill them.
Of course, these are numbers I pulled out of thin air, but that gives us some idea of how much gear we'll need before attempting Inferno.
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This is to anyone looking at the brady guide.
+ Show Spoiler +Have you noticed that the act 2 accursed monster is a higher level than the accursed hellion monster in act 3? I wonder if the acts aren't going to be strictly linear. I'm not sure if that would make sense though.
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On May 05 2012 07:42 Muggs wrote:This is to anyone looking at the brady guide. + Show Spoiler +Have you noticed that the act 2 accursed monster is a higher level than the accursed hellion monster in act 3? I wonder if the acts aren't going to be strictly linear. I'm not sure if that would make sense though.
The description says "once summoned" though so maybe that's why.
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i like what i am seeing, the mobs from hell to inferno seem to have roughly 5 times more hp. Could really be challenging 
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Could people talking about that brady guide please put it in spoilers?
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On May 05 2012 08:10 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:42 Muggs wrote:This is to anyone looking at the brady guide. + Show Spoiler +Have you noticed that the act 2 accursed monster is a higher level than the accursed hellion monster in act 3? I wonder if the acts aren't going to be strictly linear. I'm not sure if that would make sense though. The description says "once summoned" though so maybe that's why.
Well played sir. That's probably it.
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EPT
