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On May 06 2012 16:13 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 15:46 ChosenSC2 wrote:
lol @ the OP ^^ Diablo 2 was insanely easy until Hell, then you couldn't get hit twice or you were dead. D2 was kind of silly in how it was constructed to be honest. It went from easy to un-beatable in like 5 minutes. Play D2 again. Don't let yourself be rushed, don't mule items, don't skip quests or entire acts. Don't brute-force level up with Tristruns, Tombruns, Baalruns and Cowruns. Don't trade a lot, and be content with what little drops or crafting results you get. Don't choose the easiest cookie-cutter build for your character. If you play like that, without all the artificial crutches the (efficient) community has come up with over the years, you'll find the game to be still challenging, even on Normal difficulty.
This is a valid point but to be fair I never played the game like you described. I only played D2 LAN with my real life friends / roommates. We would do all the things people do online though and we were all very knowledgeable. We played Hammerdin (me), Assassin, Hammerdin and we raped the game, Hell was kind of tough but not really. And we weren't even using the community / online trading.
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I think that overall while the game may be harder in D3 (harder monsters at nightmare++, etc), it will be much less taxing for players to beat it because of the fact that you don't get confined to a skill build like in D2. So this allows you multiple attempts to try to get through it with different builds. Also you don't have to aim for specific items (which we all know how difficult they are to get in D2), rather you can tune your build to your items.
Also, the fact that there are more ways to get good items not just from boss runs but through beating rare and champion monsters makes the games somewhat less dry than D2 where after awhile it got boring going through multiple Mephisto, Diablo, Pindel, Shenk and Baal run.
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On May 07 2012 11:11 ChosenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 16:13 Shockk wrote:On May 06 2012 15:46 ChosenSC2 wrote:
lol @ the OP ^^ Diablo 2 was insanely easy until Hell, then you couldn't get hit twice or you were dead. D2 was kind of silly in how it was constructed to be honest. It went from easy to un-beatable in like 5 minutes. Play D2 again. Don't let yourself be rushed, don't mule items, don't skip quests or entire acts. Don't brute-force level up with Tristruns, Tombruns, Baalruns and Cowruns. Don't trade a lot, and be content with what little drops or crafting results you get. Don't choose the easiest cookie-cutter build for your character. If you play like that, without all the artificial crutches the (efficient) community has come up with over the years, you'll find the game to be still challenging, even on Normal difficulty. This is a valid point but to be fair I never played the game like you described. I only played D2 LAN with my real life friends / roommates. We would do all the things people do online though and we were all very knowledgeable. We played Hammerdin (me), Assassin, Hammerdin and we raped the game, Hell was kind of tough but not really. And we weren't even using the community / online trading.
Well, using 2 Hammerdins does make the game a lot easier. Best part about Save for the Monster under Ruined Temple that may resist them, nothing else in the game does. And since Immunity is such a dick thing in D2, Hammerdin got his name for fully pumping only 1 skill and being able to use it on everything (which is more than about every1 else can say).
Imo, if you are playing w friends on LAN, untwinked relatively weak builds like Avengers, Fire Druid, etc are much more exciting 
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Can someone explain to me the fascination with difficulty that's widespread on every D3 forum? There was barely any mechanical skill required to play Diablo 2. The hardest part of the game is literally fighting the UI to drop pots into the belt.
Diablo 3 is looking to be the same way, just grinding for gear and having fun. I just don't understand this fascination since if they actually implemented gameplay requiring precise precision, timing, and fast reactions, 99% of the gamers would get stuck and not enjoy the game.
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On May 06 2012 16:13 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 15:46 ChosenSC2 wrote:
lol @ the OP ^^ Diablo 2 was insanely easy until Hell, then you couldn't get hit twice or you were dead. D2 was kind of silly in how it was constructed to be honest. It went from easy to un-beatable in like 5 minutes. Play D2 again. Don't let yourself be rushed, don't mule items, don't skip quests or entire acts. Don't brute-force level up with Tristruns, Tombruns, Baalruns and Cowruns. Don't trade a lot, and be content with what little drops or crafting results you get. Don't choose the easiest cookie-cutter build for your character. If you play like that, without all the artificial crutches the (efficient) community has come up with over the years, you'll find the game to be still challenging, even on Normal difficulty.
I remember the first time I played DII was when I was ~7. It was on a 100mhz computer(like barely ran diablo took 10 secs for a waypoint, 20-25 between acts.) Played a barbarian, had literally ZERO clue about the mechanics of damage. Didn't make it past act 3 of nightmare in about 3 months of playing, and only level 50 or 60ish. Skills all over the place didn't know how to use hotkeys, more stat points in strength than vitality, points in energy(on a barbarian no less). Did cow level runs with a crossbow because cows killed me too fast(true story). Made it there using a The Chieftain that I found in act 2 normal and vast majority blues, dying upwards of a dozen times on most bosses, and probably more than that on the way to them.
Fast forward to today, where waiting for release I made a paladin and blazed through normal and nightmare in 3 days of on and off playing, doing a few farm runs of various bosses/cow level to collect gear/runes. Yet looking back I'm more proud of my 7 year old run than my current 19 year old absolutely smashing the same content. I still suck at the game. My paladin has trouble in act 1 hell, although that's somewhat to be expected, I have trash armor and weapons 
I think what I like most about D3 is that there's going to be a vast majority of builds that can actually run content probably all the way up to and including hell, and maybe even inferno with optimal gear for suboptimal build, and while suboptimal builds are possible, the game tries to guide you towards stuff that works. My 7 year old self wouldn't ever have been able to finish hell or possibly even nightmare on that barbarian even given more time.
As for blazing through content, I have figured out through 4 person open beta weekend runs that running with 4 is optimal because with a simple skype call "hey I got found a crossbow with 15.6 dps, what's your's", followed by a "12, drop it for me~" and suddenly you've got 4 people doing their absolute best to split drops and gear each other up.
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On May 07 2012 14:22 ryseungoo wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with difficulty that's widespread on every D3 forum? There was barely any mechanical skill required to play Diablo 2. The hardest part of the game is literally fighting the UI to drop pots into the belt.
Diablo 3 is looking to be the same way, just grinding for gear and having fun. I just don't understand this fascination since if they actually implemented gameplay requiring precise precision, timing, and fast reactions, 99% of the gamers would get stuck and not enjoy the game.
Oh man precise precision, the precisest of precisions. But honestly I don't quite get it either. D2 definitely didn't have any serious mechanical restrictions, even though you could often tell who the "better" player was. Point is there wasn't a very high skill or difficulty ceiling to begin with. I think a lot of the people who are complaining about this are from the WoW community, and never having played, I can't say where exactly they're getting these ideas about difficulty from.
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On May 07 2012 14:22 ryseungoo wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with difficulty that's widespread on every D3 forum? There was barely any mechanical skill required to play Diablo 2. The hardest part of the game is literally fighting the UI to drop pots into the belt.
Diablo 3 is looking to be the same way, just grinding for gear and having fun. I just don't understand this fascination since if they actually implemented gameplay requiring precise precision, timing, and fast reactions, 99% of the gamers would get stuck and not enjoy the game.
Well I can say that the amount of games that are difficult are few and far between. The fact that Blizzard openly claims that it will be difficult, gives me reason to at least get excited about it. For your last statement, I doubt that 99% are going to get stuck. That is why they have normal all the way to inferno difficulty modes. Maybe the casual gamer will get stuck mid-way through nightmare or hell. That is where their experience ends.
Gamers are problem solvers at their finest. We are given tools and a problem. "Use these tools to accomplish your goal by any means". Gamers immediately go to work wether it's through trial and error or just good decision making. The casual gamer just kind of does whatever seems cool then gives up when presented with an obstacle.
I'm thinking that the difficulty will come from the more intelligent AI though. Maybe it will require an absurd amount of reaction and proper spell timings to properly handle the special mobs in the later stages while normal will be challenging for the casual gamer. They still experience all the content as far as story goes but if you want all the high end stuff, you are going to have to push your skill limit.
Can't wait to find out though.
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This was posted some hours ago on the forums, Community Manager answered
Not very much new stuff there, but it may get a bit challenging even in nightmare, would be cool
Show nested quote +Hi!
Lots of people (me, for example) are bored and looking for things to do while we wait for 5.15.
Can you tell us anything new-but-not-groundbreaking about d3?
Do you have any recommendations for passing the time? What have you been up to?
Do you have a favorite funny youtube video (even if its not d3 related)?
Thanks!
-Ticklefight
Bored? In a world with WoW battlegrounds and the StarCraft II ladder up and running? To pass the time, I'm watching lots and lots of World Championship Series matches online. Very much fun. I love old videos that were funny once upon a time, like Ask A Ninja or Strongbad Emails. Let's see... new-but-not-groundbreaking... About five weeks ago, a co-worker of mine really hit a wall on the last boss in the game on Nightmare. And he's a fine gamer. Dude has plenty of talent. And he called me over and showed me his struggles, and I was stumped. I watched him playing very admirably, and going down, and I didn't know what to suggest. It was the first time that I really contemplated how complicated the build decisions can be for each hero. I was just merrily playing along on my heroes, making whatever build decisions seemed like the most effective, and not thinking ahead much. I started imagining scenarios that might come along and completely shut down whatever I was counting on (example: very close quarters when you're a Vault-centric demon hunter.) No big deal on normal. You die a couple of times, try a different build, and then work from there. But on Hardcore... you don't get to experiment. Once you engage that boss, it's win or lose. Big. A third person came over and made some suggestions to the co-worker who was struggling, and made a positive difference. He defeated the boss, and was so happy that he forgot to pick up his loot before going on to Hell!
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To be honest, i think crafting gives such good gear, gear checks shouldnt even apply UNTIL you reach hell/inferno.
For me, crafting is going to be one of the best ways to get gear while leveling up and its probably going to last me quite long.
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If I consider it replayable enough I'll beat every difficulty
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On May 07 2012 14:22 ryseungoo wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with difficulty that's widespread on every D3 forum? There was barely any mechanical skill required to play Diablo 2. The hardest part of the game is literally fighting the UI to drop pots into the belt.
Diablo 3 is looking to be the same way, just grinding for gear and having fun. I just don't understand this fascination since if they actually implemented gameplay requiring precise precision, timing, and fast reactions, 99% of the gamers would get stuck and not enjoy the game.
The fascination with difficulty is in every gaming community, any experienced player will find most games to be trivial so you look for those gems that at least challenge you a bit. And at least in my experience when you get stuck you try to improve yourself so that you are no longer stuck and that is an enjoyable experience.
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the difficulty will be discontinuous, I expect it to be easy until you hit a wall, then easy again for a while.
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if you can catch his stream, here is an example of someone who does not know how to play D2
Act 4 Normal Chaos Sanctuary is hard as hell for him because he's playing incredibly bad (guessing no real prior experience with the game) and what looks to be single player mode
http://www.twitch.tv/manvsgame
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On May 07 2012 14:22 ryseungoo wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with difficulty that's widespread on every D3 forum? There was barely any mechanical skill required to play Diablo 2. The hardest part of the game is literally fighting the UI to drop pots into the belt.
Diablo 3 is looking to be the same way, just grinding for gear and having fun. I just don't understand this fascination since if they actually implemented gameplay requiring precise precision, timing, and fast reactions, 99% of the gamers would get stuck and not enjoy the game.
Pro tip about D2 potions: You can shift click potions in your inventory and they automatically go to your belt
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Yeah going to be hard, won't be able to beat the higher end content if you don't do it with a bunch of other people and they are all really geared and are stat'd correctly. But someone is going to be it fairly soon, Blizzard likes to think that they made really hard content but then it just gets cleared by the best of the best rather quickly i.e. late WoW stuff.
Should be a great game nonetheless can't wait
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On May 07 2012 14:22 ryseungoo wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with difficulty that's widespread on every D3 forum? There was barely any mechanical skill required to play Diablo 2. The hardest part of the game is literally fighting the UI to drop pots into the belt.
Diablo 3 is looking to be the same way, just grinding for gear and having fun. I just don't understand this fascination since if they actually implemented gameplay requiring precise precision, timing, and fast reactions, 99% of the gamers would get stuck and not enjoy the game.
Well d2 came out around 10 years ago. Most have been playing that long ... when d2 came out it was doign things peopel really hadn't seen that much before. But now there are hundreds of games with those behaviors. I am bored of them ... so i have to play through the game TWICE (probably 3) before i get the hard behaviours? So i now have to spend almost 50 quid on a game and then devote enough time for 2 play throughs just so that it is interesting?
I am sorry but WOW has corrupted your soul if you think games are about grind. Games are about solving problems and reaching goals, but if those goals are meaningless and trivial then why play them?
Your point about getting stuck is good, that is about game design. Games used to have difficulty levels ... did you ever play doom on nightmare? It was described as 'not even fair' it was great fun, and it wasn't even fair. Now a difficulty level is another way of saying welcome to the next level down ... ie if each act has 4 parts and there are 4 acts then level 1 of the 2nd easiest difficulty should really be called level 17 - because that is precisely what it is in effect. IE you ahve been sold a game with 1/4 of the content it should have from the start or alternatively you are playign a game that has its intersting content tucked away for the tiny % that can be arsed to play it through 3 times with the same char.
What do you want? 8 hours of sheer fucking awesomeness or 24 hours of meh followed by 8 hours of well thats cool but im kinda bored of this now? Because by the time i got to the end of skyrim i was playing simply to finish - 40 hours of a game and i am getting bored (unless it has replayability by playing *against people* - because people add depth through creativity).
Personally I'd much prefer 8 hours of awesomeness and have people knocking down blizz doors for more content.
However i suspect 8 will be more like 16 ... so 16 hours of awesomeness vs 48 meh followed by 16 not quite so meh?
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On May 09 2012 03:49 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:22 ryseungoo wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with difficulty that's widespread on every D3 forum? There was barely any mechanical skill required to play Diablo 2. The hardest part of the game is literally fighting the UI to drop pots into the belt.
Diablo 3 is looking to be the same way, just grinding for gear and having fun. I just don't understand this fascination since if they actually implemented gameplay requiring precise precision, timing, and fast reactions, 99% of the gamers would get stuck and not enjoy the game. Well d2 came out around 10 years ago. Most have been playing that long ... when d2 came out it was doign things peopel really hadn't seen that much before. But now there are hundreds of games with those behaviors. I am bored of them ... so i have to play through the game TWICE (probably 3) before i get the hard behaviours? So i now have to spend almost 50 quid on a game and then devote enough time for 2 play throughs just so that it is interesting? I am sorry but WOW has corrupted your soul if you think games are about grind. Games are about solving problems and reaching goals, but if those goals are meaningless and trivial then why play them? Your point about getting stuck is good, that is about game design. Games used to have difficulty levels ... did you ever play doom on nightmare? It was described as 'not even fair' it was great fun, and it wasn't even fair. Now a difficulty level is another way of saying welcome to the next level down ... ie if each act has 4 parts and there are 4 acts then level 1 of the 2nd easiest difficulty should really be called level 17 - because that is precisely what it is in effect. IE you ahve been sold a game with 1/4 of the content it should have from the start or alternatively you are playign a game that has its intersting content tucked away for the tiny % that can be arsed to play it through 3 times with the same char. What do you want? 8 hours of sheer fucking awesomeness or 24 hours of meh followed by 8 hours of well thats cool but im kinda bored of this now? Because by the time i got to the end of skyrim i was playing simply to finish - 40 hours of a game and i am getting bored (unless it has replayability by playing *against people* - because people add depth through creativity). Personally I'd much prefer 8 hours of awesomeness and have people knocking down blizz doors for more content. However i suspect 8 will be more like 16 ... so 16 hours of awesomeness vs 48 meh followed by 16 not quite so meh?
Honestly, don't even buy the game. If you have already, why do you complain?
Your arrogance towards the game and the content are painful enough to listen to. Most people are perfectly content with the fact that they start off 'easy' to learn their abilities, their class, etc. Once they reach hell, it's prolly going to be challenging enough. Sure, once you create an alt, it'll be a cakewalk all the way to inferno maybe, but that's why you'll complete content way faster. People have done 17 minute skelly king runs from lvl1 with nothing to start off with.
And if all this turns you off so much, then this genre is not for you. It's not just D3, it's any game with 'gather loot, kill mobs', ESPECIALLY games with high replayability. A rare exception to this might be dark souls or demon's souls, and if that's what you want, then good for you. Either quit whining about it, because honestly, you are just nostalgic over old games, OR you're just over the genre. If you are, then I think your opinion has been heard. Clearly millions, myself included, are not.
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the fundamental problem with this poll is that difficulty is subjective. Do I think for the average person or for me? I guess you mean for the average person, so I guess I should put insane. But for me it should be hard. If I understand Blizzard correctly, anyone with an average IQ(100) will not be able to finish Inferno. If they do, then it's definitely easy.
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Diablo 2 for people who done research isn't that hard to beat on Hell, but it is almost impossible to beat if you are shooting from the hip. I would like Diablo 3 to require more strategical thinking in game than before the game, and hope Inferno will live up to it.
For me at least I don't finish a game until I finish it on the highest difficulty level.
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after seeing the stat growth from Hell to Inferno, I'm expecting Inferno to be played like instances where specific sections of an Act will have groups doing loot runs repeatedly in each section then after a while, attempt to do the next section of an act to see if they've accumulated enough gear+skill to get through it then start doing loot runs of that section and rinse and repeat with the next section of an Act
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EPT
