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On November 17 2010 06:15 battarro wrote:
what was your main question? why should we care?
Because it sets a legal precedent.
Rofl, any gamer who cares about the legal precedent this will set should be siding with KeSPA all the way for the simple fact that eSports can't exist if a developer can just shut down a scene when a new game comes out.
I've talked about the legal precedent this will set before, Blizzard winning sets an awful precedent for any organization that wishes to create a league around a game that lasts for more than a few years. The only way eSports will be taken seriously is if Brood War or some other game is played indefinitely in the same way any other sport works. If it just disappears when a sequel comes out then eSports will always been viewed in a negative light.
On November 17 2010 07:48 Ferago wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:44 overt wrote:On November 16 2010 21:04 Ferago wrote:On November 16 2010 15:57 overt wrote:
After reading a bunch of the replies I can't help but think that at least most of the people on Blizzard's side are people who don't give a shit what happens to Brood War. And frankly, if you don't care about the Brood War scene then why you'd even post on a thread about the Brood War scene is beyond me.
Could I have someone who cares about the Brood War scene and who wants to see Brood War continue explain why they favor Blizzard over KeSPA? Please don't lie or anything, if you're only interested in SC2 and don't really care if Brood War dies or do care if it dies but feel it's Brood Wars, "time," don't reply to me. I will ignore you. I want to hear reasons why, as a fan of Brood War and the pro scene, I should support Blizzard and not boycott every game they make from here on out.
I feel pretty betrayed by Blizzard to be honest. The terms on page one are fucking ridiculous (I'm not going to go into detail). Why can't they just demand that their logo be seen and ask for royalties every year? Even though OGN/MBCGame shouldn't have to pay royalties, I think they'd gladly pay royalties at a reasonable price once a year. So seriously, as someone who likes Brood War and wants the Brood War scene to continue why should I not be enraged at Blizzard? Blizzard isn't asking much beyond a reasonable royalty and the display of their logo. The only other significant item is the 50:50 split of ownership of the broadcasting material, which is normal. All that means is that Blizzard can use that material however they want for promotional purposes, etc., which would be for the benefit of both Blizzard and e-sports. It doesn't mean they're trying to control anything. So I'm not sure what it is that you (or anyone) find to be ridiculous in these terms. We can agree to disagree, but those three things aren't the only things in that agreement. I'd also point out that while it isn't stated in that agreement I think it's very likely that MBCGame and OGN would be asked to change their programming around so that it doesn't compete with SC2 (as that was a big issue in earlier discussions). You also didn't answer my main question of that post and instead just decided to give your input on the deal Gretech offered. I don't care about discussing the ins and outs of the deal or why I think it's bullshit. What was your main question? Why should you not be enraged at Blizzard and boycott them? If my response didn't answer that question then maybe you should further explain what you're enraged about, because you kind of just left it out in the open. You are correct in observing that there are more than three terms on the agreement, but I still fail to see which ones you don't like. Again, maybe some elaboration would clear things up a bit. I'm not trying to be hostile, but I'm starting to wonder if you even know what you're talking about.
I don't care to talk about why I think the terms are bullshit because that's been discussed to death in the past thirteen pages.
My main question was, why as a fan of the Brood War scene should I give a shit about Blizzard or their IP rights? I want to know why people who like Brood War and who want Brood War to continue to be played indefinitely should be supportive of Blizzard over KeSPA. I thought it was made pretty clear in my post but maybe I'm wrong.
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On November 17 2010 16:44 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 06:15 battarro wrote:
what was your main question? why should we care?
Because it sets a legal precedent. Rofl, any gamer who cares about the legal precedent this will set should be siding with KeSPA all the way for the simple fact that eSports can't exist if a developer can just shut down a scene when a new game comes out. I've talked about the legal precedent this will set before, Blizzard winning sets an awful precedent for any organization that wishes to create a league around a game that lasts for more than a few years. The only way eSports will be taken seriously is if Brood War or some other game is played indefinitely in the same way any other sport works. If it just disappears when a sequel comes out then eSports will always been viewed in a negative light. Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 07:48 Ferago wrote:On November 17 2010 03:44 overt wrote:On November 16 2010 21:04 Ferago wrote:On November 16 2010 15:57 overt wrote:
After reading a bunch of the replies I can't help but think that at least most of the people on Blizzard's side are people who don't give a shit what happens to Brood War. And frankly, if you don't care about the Brood War scene then why you'd even post on a thread about the Brood War scene is beyond me.
Could I have someone who cares about the Brood War scene and who wants to see Brood War continue explain why they favor Blizzard over KeSPA? Please don't lie or anything, if you're only interested in SC2 and don't really care if Brood War dies or do care if it dies but feel it's Brood Wars, "time," don't reply to me. I will ignore you. I want to hear reasons why, as a fan of Brood War and the pro scene, I should support Blizzard and not boycott every game they make from here on out.
I feel pretty betrayed by Blizzard to be honest. The terms on page one are fucking ridiculous (I'm not going to go into detail). Why can't they just demand that their logo be seen and ask for royalties every year? Even though OGN/MBCGame shouldn't have to pay royalties, I think they'd gladly pay royalties at a reasonable price once a year. So seriously, as someone who likes Brood War and wants the Brood War scene to continue why should I not be enraged at Blizzard? Blizzard isn't asking much beyond a reasonable royalty and the display of their logo. The only other significant item is the 50:50 split of ownership of the broadcasting material, which is normal. All that means is that Blizzard can use that material however they want for promotional purposes, etc., which would be for the benefit of both Blizzard and e-sports. It doesn't mean they're trying to control anything. So I'm not sure what it is that you (or anyone) find to be ridiculous in these terms. We can agree to disagree, but those three things aren't the only things in that agreement. I'd also point out that while it isn't stated in that agreement I think it's very likely that MBCGame and OGN would be asked to change their programming around so that it doesn't compete with SC2 (as that was a big issue in earlier discussions). You also didn't answer my main question of that post and instead just decided to give your input on the deal Gretech offered. I don't care about discussing the ins and outs of the deal or why I think it's bullshit. What was your main question? Why should you not be enraged at Blizzard and boycott them? If my response didn't answer that question then maybe you should further explain what you're enraged about, because you kind of just left it out in the open. You are correct in observing that there are more than three terms on the agreement, but I still fail to see which ones you don't like. Again, maybe some elaboration would clear things up a bit. I'm not trying to be hostile, but I'm starting to wonder if you even know what you're talking about. I don't care to talk about why I think the terms are bullshit because that's been discussed to death in the past thirteen pages. My main question was, why as a fan of the Brood War scene should I give a shit about Blizzard or their IP rights? I want to know why people who like Brood War and who want Brood War to continue to be played indefinitely should be supportive of Blizzard over KeSPA. I thought it was made pretty clear in my post but maybe I'm wrong.
That's a pretty abstract question. No one is asking you to personally give a shit about Blizzard's IP rights, but you'd do yourself well to acknowledge reality in this situation. They have rights, and they're choosing to exercise them in a reasonable manner.
Contrary to popular belief in this thread, the fate of Brood War doesn't depend on this agreement. At all. I can't drill that into your heads any more than I already have. All the broadcasting companies have to do is accept the terms, and continue doing things the same way. If Brood War dies, it will be because SC2 was more popular (whether we like it or not).
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Except that SC2 is not more popular in Korea. At least not yet, and with players like Flash in it for the long haul I doubt it'll become more popular anytime soon.
The fact that you think if Blizzard wins they'll allow the Brood War scene to continue is kind of hilarious. Sure, they might let it continue or they may just decide to let it die. Anyone who's a fan of Brood War can't honestly side with Blizzard on this issue because there's at least a chance that they'll shut the scene down. I'd say the chance is incredibly high but I'm sure you'd put the chance at extremely low. Either way, there's a chance of it so why would I want Blizzard to win as a fan of the sport?
What rights they have in relation to broadcasting Brood War is up for discussion. I'd say they forfeited those "rights" when they let the scene go on for over a decade, had employees attend, and only seemed to care about it when KeSPA began selling broadcasting rights and only cared enough about it to take it to court when StarCraft 2 was released. It's obvious that their goals here are to further StarCraft 2. Not Brood War, not eSports. What if all the court does is declare that KeSPA can't charge broadcasting fees but that OGN and MBCGame can broadcast Brood War as much as they want? Or what if the court declares that KeSPA, OGN, and MBCGame have done nothing illegal at all? Wouldn't be out of the question at all especially given Blizzard's obvious motives here.
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On November 17 2010 11:15 battarro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 15:41 ffreakk wrote:
@ battaro
Your analogy is interesting, but many points are twisted the wrong way.
1/ Blizz isnt broke, and its not like their new "ball" isnt selling. They are actually selling well.
2/ A good part of your old "ball" 's popularity came from this new company that makes a sport out of it. And they are responsible for a huge amount of publicity which, in turn, translated into your sales.
3/ Your new product is related to (i would go as far as to say it live off the fame of) your "square ball" that stopped gaining popularity until this new "sport" came about. So a good part of the sales also benefit from (came from) this popularity brought about by this "sport".
With these 3 in mind, can you really complain? Let alone press them with ridiculous lawsuits and conditions after you are done thriving off their efforts? The selling of a new ball is irrelevant, Blizzard had the same right to the broodwar scene before the launch of SC2 and after the launch. It is not that when you create a new product you forfeit any rights to an old one. While is it fortunate and convenient for blizzard that another company laid the ground work for the e-sport community, having doing so does not gives legal right to the company after creating the secondary market. For example if I take someones unused land and without their consent I build an apartment complex, they can come later and get everything i pour money and heart into. Is it fair, no, is it legal, yes, it is.
While it is true that SC2's sales is irrelevant to the legalities concerning SC1, in your original scenario you painted Blizzard to be going broke after sales of SC:BW go down, since they do not have a new product that sells well, i merely pointed out that.
The remaining points are the same legal stuffs that will only get decided in court, opinions are welcome, but since we are both neither lawyers nor do we possess any significant law knowledge, we will just have to agree to disagree for now.
On an interesting note, your example of unused land is actually against you. If i have thrived off your land for 10 years, and you have never made noise about it, its gone. You cant start claiming stuffs after it flourished because the law (at least for the most parts of the world) would deem that piece of land as mine. I would link a wiki article but i cant remember the exact name. The duration/time it takes for the land to transfer owner varies though. I learnt that in Phillipines it takes a mere 2 years.
PS: Not that e-Sport and land are the same things, so im not saying the same rule will apply. Just was something i wanted to mention.
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On November 17 2010 17:03 overt wrote:
Except that SC2 is not more popular in Korea. At least not yet, and with players like Flash in it for the long haul I doubt it'll become more popular anytime soon.
The fact that you think if Blizzard wins they'll allow the Brood War scene to continue is kind of hilarious. Sure, they might let it continue or they may just decide to let it die. Anyone who's a fan of Brood War can't honestly side with Blizzard on this issue because there's at least a chance that they'll shut the scene down. I'd say the chance is incredibly high but I'm sure you'd put the chance at extremely low. Either way, there's a chance of it so why would I want Blizzard to win as a fan of the sport?
What rights they have in relation to broadcasting Brood War is up for discussion. I'd say they forfeited those "rights" when they let the scene go on for over a decade, had employees attend, and only seemed to care about it when KeSPA began selling broadcasting rights and only cared enough about it to take it to court when StarCraft 2 was released. It's obvious that their goals here are to further StarCraft 2. Not Brood War, not eSports. What if all the court does is declare that KeSPA can't charge broadcasting fees but that OGN and MBCGame can broadcast Brood War as much as they want? Or what if the court declares that KeSPA, OGN, and MBCGame have done nothing illegal at all? Wouldn't be out of the question at all especially given Blizzard's obvious motives here.
I don't know what to tell you. The topic of discussion here is whether these are reasonable terms, not whether "overt" should side with Blizzard over Kespa. You're not making a very compelling argument by making baseless claims and showing a clearly biased opinion.
What is it that makes you think Blizzard would be motivated to shut down the BW scene? They're not stupid; they know that they're not going to increase SC2 sales by pissing off half of their fanbase.
They "forfeited their rights"? Sorry, that's not how it works. Blizzard has the same rights they had 10 years ago, and they're not up for discussion. IP laws are pretty straightforward.
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If your example is the bastion of democracy and constitutional law that is the Philippines, then you need to get a better one. Land grabs are common in third world countries, where people just rush and forcefully occupy a piece of land, and the owners are SOL. Venezuela has this happened to them recently. It is a mob mentality basically.
Find me an example of any developed country on where you can occupy someone land, use then and then it becomes yours.
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I mentioned Phillipines since its by coincidence that i heard of its specifics recently. The real law is however much more widespread and present in many more countries than you would think (i was surprised too when i read up on Wiki about it). It is not only present in the third-world countries that you looked down on.
That said it has been a long time so i cant link said wiki article. I would appreciate it if the one who origninally linked it in TL would link it once again, or whoever that know of said law.
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On November 17 2010 17:59 Ferago wrote:
I don't know what to tell you. The topic of discussion here is whether these are reasonable terms, not whether "overt" should side with Blizzard over Kespa. You're not making a very compelling argument by making baseless claims and showing a clearly biased opinion.
I'm not sure if you really just weren't getting my point from my first post or if you're intentionally misinterpreting what I was saying. I'm just saying this because I feel like my point was very obvious to those who have been following this issue in recent months. Why should Brood War fans (not just me) be supportive of Blizzard on this issue? I understand why SC2 fans are siding with them but why should those in the Brood War scene be supportive of Blizzard.
This thread isn't just about the terms, sorry. This is just one part of a very long battle between these entities. I'm not trying to make an argument, I thought that was also obvious in my first post on page 13, and please, I think we're both being biased here. I'm not going to try and pretend like I'm not.
On November 17 2010 17:59 Ferago wrote:What is it that makes you think Blizzard would be motivated to shut down the BW scene? They're not stupid; they know that they're not going to increase SC2 sales by pissing off half of their fanbase.
How anyone could be keeping up with this and not think that Blizzard is trying to destroy the Brood War scene is beyond me. Also, where have you been? Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about pissing off their fans. No LAN support, no chat channels, no cross-region play, fastest selling RTS game of all time. Blizzard knows, as do I, that if they do piss their fans off they'll still sell games. They're probably pretty confident that even if they piss off their Korean fans they'll still have a large majority of them play and watch SC2 anyways and I think most everyone would agree with that. After all, if the Brood War scene goes away StarCraft fans will be forced to watch SC2 or just simply give up on it all together and for most people making a switch to SC2 will be the "better" option.
On November 17 2010 17:59 Ferago wrote:They "forfeited their rights"? Sorry, that's not how it works. Blizzard has the same rights they had 10 years ago, and they're not up for discussion. IP laws are pretty straightforward.
Assuming they had the right to say who can and who cannot broadcast their game being played is a pretty big assumption to be making in the first place. However, assuming they have these rights any court (whether it was in America, Korea, or where ever) will be very interested in why Blizzard let the scene crop up, continue existing with their knowledge, and didn't do anything about it for years. Even gave it kind of a nod of encouragement by having their own employees attend KeSPA events several times. So yes, I could see how a court in America could throw Blizzard's case out and I can especially see how a court in Korea could throw it out.
IP and copyright law are some of the most vague and ill-enforced laws in existence, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. If it was as straightforward as you're making it seem OGN and MBCGame would have accepted terms a long time ago.
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At best, it is a straw men argument, (since we are discussing IP laws not real state Laws) but since there is no other precedent for this case, it is hard to compare is it an existing case, where a product was developed far beyond the intents of the original creator, and later the creator wanted to come and claim rights to it.
So everything in the end we have said on this thread ( even me) is a straw men. So all we can do is wait and see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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Overt, I want to ask you one honest question.
Do you think the current litigation with Kespa and Korea over IP rights over games broadcast using the LAN service, had an influence on the "NO LAN" support for SC2? Remember this have been going for years now.
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On November 18 2010 07:13 battarro wrote:
Overt, I want to ask you one honest question.
Do you think the current litigation with Kespa and Korea over IP rights over games broadcast using the LAN service, had an influence on the "NO LAN" support for SC2? Remember this have been going for years now.
No, the most likely reason for no LAN was because of piracy. Brood War was pirated like crazy and people played on LAN through pirated copies. The first time I played Brood War was at a LAN with a pirated copy, so yeah.
Either way, not having LAN was stupid of them but I'm not going to talk about that because I think everyone agrees that no LAN was idiotic of Blizzard. Oh, and if it did have something to do with KeSPA then that's an even dumber reason to not have LAN in the game.
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Not everyone agrees, that not having LAN was an idiotic reason. People who think it is their right to pirate a game and have it for free, think is idiotic. It is a direct result of piracy. Im sure all blizzard shareholders and developers dont think of it as idiotic.
On one hand you acknowledged the high levels of piracy, but at the same time you dismiss this and say they should have the LAN, so it gets pirated faster. Isnt that a dishonest stance? Requesting a feature that makes piracy easier?
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On November 18 2010 07:02 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 17:59 Ferago wrote:
I don't know what to tell you. The topic of discussion here is whether these are reasonable terms, not whether "overt" should side with Blizzard over Kespa. You're not making a very compelling argument by making baseless claims and showing a clearly biased opinion. I'm not sure if you really just weren't getting my point from my first post or if you're intentionally misinterpreting what I was saying. I'm just saying this because I feel like my point was very obvious to those who have been following this issue in recent months. Why should Brood War fans (not just me) be supportive of Blizzard on this issue? I understand why SC2 fans are siding with them but why should those in the Brood War scene be supportive of Blizzard. This thread isn't just about the terms, sorry. This is just one part of a very long battle between these entities. I'm not trying to make an argument, I thought that was also obvious in my first post on page 13, and please, I think we're both being biased here. I'm not going to try and pretend like I'm not. Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 17:59 Ferago wrote:What is it that makes you think Blizzard would be motivated to shut down the BW scene? They're not stupid; they know that they're not going to increase SC2 sales by pissing off half of their fanbase. How anyone could be keeping up with this and not think that Blizzard is trying to destroy the Brood War scene is beyond me. Also, where have you been? Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about pissing off their fans. No LAN support, no chat channels, no cross-region play, fastest selling RTS game of all time. Blizzard knows, as do I, that if they do piss their fans off they'll still sell games. They're probably pretty confident that even if they piss off their Korean fans they'll still have a large majority of them play and watch SC2 anyways and I think most everyone would agree with that. After all, if the Brood War scene goes away StarCraft fans will be forced to watch SC2 or just simply give up on it all together and for most people making a switch to SC2 will be the "better" option. Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 17:59 Ferago wrote:They "forfeited their rights"? Sorry, that's not how it works. Blizzard has the same rights they had 10 years ago, and they're not up for discussion. IP laws are pretty straightforward.
Assuming they had the right to say who can and who cannot broadcast their game being played is a pretty big assumption to be making in the first place. However, assuming they have these rights any court (whether it was in America, Korea, or where ever) will be very interested in why Blizzard let the scene crop up, continue existing with their knowledge, and didn't do anything about it for years. Even gave it kind of a nod of encouragement by having their own employees attend KeSPA events several times. So yes, I could see how a court in America could throw Blizzard's case out and I can especially see how a court in Korea could throw it out. IP and copyright law are some of the most vague and ill-enforced laws in existence, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. If it was as straightforward as you're making it seem OGN and MBCGame would have accepted terms a long time ago.
I understand what you're saying about wanting BW to go on. I do too. But even though you and other BW fans may not stand to benefit from this agreement, you have to understand that this is Blizzard exercising their rights, and (as I've said so many times already) this does not threaten the BW scene.
I agree that Blizzard isn't as concerned as they could be about pissing their fans off, but let's think this through a little bit. The argument that they're trying to shut down BW is based solely on the idea that they want to increase SC2 sales. Even though pissing everyone off may not hurt sales that much, it sure as hell isn't going to help them. Blizzard knows that better than any of us (they have a whole department whose job is to know these things). You keep making vague references to "how this has been going" as to why they are "obviously trying to shut down BW", but you haven't made a concrete argument to support that.
Blizzard let the pro scene go on because for years it was basically harmless, and as has been stated before, they were even benefiting from the free advertisement. They didn't step in until Kespa started charging large fees from the broadcasting companies to broadcast their tournaments. That's when the pro scene officially went commercial, and Blizzard (correctly) felt that it was time to become involved, because a lot of money was wrongly exchanging hands over their game. They had been trying to negotiate for several years before SC2 even came out, and it has only come to this point because Kespa has been completely uncooperative, and unwilling to even acknowledge Blizzard as the makers of Starcraft.
So there, I've laid it out pretty clearly (I hope). You don't have to be happy about it, but those are the facts and Blizzard has their rights. There may be a chance Blizzard will lose, but it will not be because they weren't entitled. It will be because, like you, the courts prioritized entertainment over the rights to intellectual property, which will set a far worse precedent than if Blizzard wins.
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@Ferago, I don't think it'd be a terrible precedent that developer's aren't allowed to say who can and can't broadcast their game. In fact, I think that's the best possible precedent for the growth of eSports. We can agree to disagree on the rest though. 
On November 18 2010 07:56 battarro wrote:
Not everyone agrees, that not having LAN was an idiotic reason. People who think it is their right to pirate a game and have it for free, think is idiotic. It is a direct result of piracy. Im sure all blizzard shareholders and developers dont think of it as idiotic.
On one hand you acknowledged the high levels of piracy, but at the same time you dismiss this and say they should have the LAN, so it gets pirated faster. Isnt that a dishonest stance? Requesting a feature that makes piracy easier?
DRM features like what Spore had limit piracy too. Doesn't mean they should be implemented. No LAN support hurts SC2. It hurts the pro scene and it hurts casual players too. I'd love to LAN the game with friends without having to worry about each of our computers being connected to the internet as that just isn't possible at a friend's house.
People are still pirating SC2 and will continue to do so. Whether having LAN support increases or decreases piracy is up for each individual to decide, but it certainly wasn't big enough of an issue for them to take LAN out or else every other developer would remove LAN too (and they don't, SC2 is the first major game release that's come out that didn't have LAN).
I'm sure Blizzard's shareholders don't think it's idiotic as they most likely aren't gamers and if they are they're incredibly out of touch with the community. I'm pretty sure if they were honest and weren't afraid of their community a lot of the devs would tell you that they wish they could have LAN support in SC2. Why wouldn't they want a feature in their game that makes it better?
Oh and LAN doesn't make piracy any easier nor do I think it makes piracy any more common. I was just trying to explain why I think Blizzard didn't have LAN in the game, because they jumped on the, "omg piracy," train and decided to harm those who pay for the game because of a minority that pirates their game. But honestly, we don't need to get into LAN as that's been discussed extensively on these forums for months now.
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On November 17 2010 16:44 overt wrote:
Rofl, any gamer who cares about the legal precedent this will set should be siding with KeSPA all the way for the simple fact that eSports can't exist if a developer can just shut down a scene when a new game comes out.
I've talked about the legal precedent this will set before, Blizzard winning sets an awful precedent for any organization that wishes to create a league around a game that lasts for more than a few years. The only way eSports will be taken seriously is if Brood War or some other game is played indefinitely in the same way any other sport works. If it just disappears when a sequel comes out then eSports will always been viewed in a negative light.
You do realize that Korea is a civil law system, where legal precedent has little to no meaning, right? The concept of legal precedent does not exist in the overwhelming majority of countries. Also, the effect that a Korean court decision has on foreign courts when facing the same question will also be little to none. Different countries have dissimilar IP law and different contract law. A foreign court (such as one in the USA) is going to do whatever it wants (e.g., the Supreme Court of America basically gave the middle finger to an International Court decision that tried to direct future legal action in the US, based on its interpretation of international treaties), and is not going to care about what some lowly Korean civil court had to say about it under a completely different legal system.
On November 17 2010 23:10 battarro wrote:
Find me an example of any developed country on where you can occupy someone land, use then and then it becomes yours.
The United States of America. Great Britain. Australia. Canada. Any individual who possesses another's land, uses it, demarcates the land as his own, excludes others from use of the land, and continually possesses the land for a certain amount of time (depends on the state) will be given rightful title to the land to the exclusion of the original owner. Here's a basic overview of the common law principles behind it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession
Non-common law countries such as Italy and France have analogous laws derived from Roman tradition.
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EPT
