On October 14 2010 03:56 hku wrote: This isn't about money. This ISN'T about money.
It's Blizzard trying to strong arm it's presence into the starcraft bw professional scene. It makes sense from their perspective: they made the game, they made it good, and they want to be recognized for it.
Korea sees it differently. Korea, ever since the end of WWII has been feircely protective of it's commerce, culture, and corporations. They have done everything in their power time and time again to maintain their identity. They Korean government has been notorious for the past 40 years for working very, VERY closely with its corporations to ensure their success and individuality. There is a reason Korean came to be one of the most successful economic countries in the past 40 years. The Korean government is ruthless in protecting Korean commerce. They banned all Japanese cultural imports throughout the 70's, 80's, and 90's (no Playstations, Jpop). They did pretty much everything in their power to make sure that companies like Samsung, Hyundai, and LG would succeed.
The Korean people take a great pride in their identity and growth.
The Korean government and people are again facing a similar dillema with the starcraft scene. They see Proleague, MSL, and OSL as a cultural cornerstone and a Korean product to be consumed by Korean people. They're willing to pay Blizzard and Gretech any amount of money, they just will do anything to prevent outside and non-Korean influence on a cultural treasure.
You act like Kespa/the koreans form one unity. Gretech and Kespa have different interests. And even Kespa itself is not one party fighting together. It's different companys with different interests. CJ probably wants Starcraft 2 to get big and fights against the rest of Kespa. You can be shure theres a ton of corruption arround there.
For what it's worth, Blizzard has my full support on this one. In my experience as their customer, they're exceedingly fair as long as you play by the rules and don't go around being a total dick (hacking, selling WoW gold, etc). KeSPA have behaved like total dicks towards Blizzard throughout their negotiations these last 3 or so years; Blizzard decides to play hardball and enforce its IP rights; KeSPA thinks they're above the law and don't need no stinking IP rights. Power to Blizzard.
Don't know enough about Gretech, so I have no strong opinion on them or their role.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Not imo, do you realize the money they're asking for is pretty much symbolic, and most likely less than what Kespa previously had to pay? But yeah easy to blame when you have no clue.
I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Not imo, do you realize the money they're asking for is pretty much symbolic, and most likely less than what Kespa previously had to pay? But yeah easy to blame when you have no clue.
I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
But to answer the first quote, no I am not convinced Gretech wants to kill BW. It seems to me that they want a slice of the pie and more control over when that pie is baked. Instead, Kespa offered them some crumbs and slammed the oven door in their face.
On October 14 2010 01:27 Emon_ wrote: Hopefully Korean court isn't bribed silly by Blizzard. Maybe they will side with KeSPA and the SPL can go on for a while more. KeSPA created the scene without any help from Blizzard. Bad move from Blizz/Gretech to come back and being tough on negotiations. If SC2 was worth anything it wouldn't have to be scared of a 2D RTS
It's not about killing BW, it's about having their IP respected. If Kespa refuses to respect that IP then Gretech and Blizzard will do what it takes to take Kespa down, even if it means the death of BW.
Blizzard and Gretech would love to get money from both BW and SC2, but they don't need BW anymore. Basically the life or death of BW is up to Kespa now.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Not imo, do you realize the money they're asking for is pretty much symbolic, and most likely less than what Kespa previously had to pay? But yeah easy to blame when you have no clue.
I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You know, thinking back. If Kespa had told Blizzard and cover their ass with this whole IP issue, what an amazing scene we will have right now. I lament the opportunity lost and hope 1+1 can still end with a 2 this time.
On October 14 2010 07:33 Devolved wrote: I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
KeSPA IS the pro-teams, pretty much. You got it almost right; it started when KeSPA started charging the broadcasters a licensing fee for a license they did not have full rights to.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
I think KeSPA's argument is pretty much that the esports scene constitutes something greater than just the game. Other points they make are secondary to that overarching narrative.
They've conceded that they would be willing to pay a fee (which could be determined through some manner of arbitration, I guess) for the use of the game, and the argument quoted above seems most useful in explaining why KeSPA would not have to now pay that same fee as payment for the past ten years.
I see the fight over the IP rights going something like this:
Say you let some friends stay at your house one night. You let them make a camp in your backyard. They're pretty helpful at first, so you let them stay for a while and go on with your life.
After so many years you want to renovate your property so that you can invite a whole lot more people. You find that your "friend" has erected a castle in your backyard and now won't move. He says that since you let him stay all these years and he spent his own money to build the castle, that he owns that and all that property he's on, and he can make as much money as he wants on tours of that castle.
Well, you have the rest of your property, so you go on with your renovations, and it is a very nice castle after all. you don't like the fact that he's coerced an army of teenage serfs to do his dirty work though, and the fact that he won't let you, the owner, tour his castle.
You tell him, he can still stay, because he did such a good job making the castle, but he has to pay rent now, since he's making money, and he can't run his tours during the hours you run your own tours.
He refuses, saying that he made this property a popular hangout, and although he might pay you 10 bucks a month in rent, there's no way you're telling him when to run his tours. He says because you never said anything for 10 years, he owns the property his castle is on and he can pretty much run around naked all day if he wants to and you can't say ????.
Kespa has done the best job that can be found for creating and managing esports, even with all their failings. However, it's still Blizzard's property, and Kespa can't own or control it, no matter what they do. They should be thankful for all the years they've been pretty much autonomous. Now they refuse to just do a little bit of lipservice to the owners of what they sell.
If Gretech doesn't bring the hammer down now, the future of esports (which is SC2 no matter how many haters there are) is in jeopardy of being hijacked by Kespa as well. If they let it go as it is, Kespa can decide to make a SC2 league of their own without the consent of Blizzard or Gretech.
It shows from the successful negotiations with OGN, that Gretech is more than willing to let BW live on. They just want their own new product, which is SC2 to succeed. Whenever a network puts on a new show, they put it on in the prime time slot for that country/region. It would be retarded for Gretech to purchase the rights for SC2 and then say, "oh yeah, let's broadcast at 12am, that will get us a lot of ratings."
On October 14 2010 08:04 cerebralz wrote: I see the fight over the IP rights going something like this:
Say you let some friends stay at your house one night. You let them make a camp in your backyard. They're pretty helpful at first, so you let them stay for a while and go on with your life.
After so many years you want to renovate your property so that you can invite a whole lot more people. You find that your "friend" has erected a castle in your backyard and now won't move. He says that since you let him stay all these years and he spent his own money to build the castle, that he owns that and all that property he's on, and he can make as much money as he wants on tours of that castle.
Well, you have the rest of your property, so you go on with your renovations, and it is a very nice castle after all. you don't like the fact that he's coerced an army of teenage serfs to do his dirty work though, and the fact that he won't let you, the owner, tour his castle.
You tell him, he can still stay, because he did such a good job making the castle, but he has to pay rent now, since he's making money, and he can't run his tours during the hours you run your own tours.
He refuses, saying that he made this property a popular hangout, and although he might pay you 10 bucks a month in rent, there's no way you're telling him when to run his tours. He says because you never said anything for 10 years, he owns the property his castle is on and he can pretty much run around naked all day if he wants to and you can't say ????.
Kespa has done the best job that can be found for creating and managing esports, even with all their failings. However, it's still Blizzard's property, and Kespa can't own or control it, no matter what they do. They should be thankful for all the years they've been pretty much autonomous. Now they refuse to just do a little bit of lipservice to the owners of what they sell.
If Gretech doesn't bring the hammer down now, the future of esports (which is SC2 no matter how many haters there are) is in jeopardy of being hijacked by Kespa as well. If they let it go as it is, Kespa can decide to make a SC2 league of their own without the consent of Blizzard or Gretech.
It shows from the successful negotiations with OGN, that Gretech is more than willing to let BW live on. They just want their own new product, which is SC2 to succeed. Whenever a network puts on a new show, they put it on in the prime time slot for that country/region. It would be retarded for Gretech to purchase the rights for SC2 and then say, "oh yeah, let's broadcast at 12am, that will get us a lot of ratings."
Interestingly for your analogy, depending on the length of time you let your friend remain in your yard, he may have a claim to the property. So hilariously, your argument in fact makes precisely the opposite case that you intended. And while it's a little unclear to me how much this pertains to intellectual property rights, it seems that adverse possession is at least a fair point to bring up.
Remember too that KeSPA doesn't claim ownership of the game, they merely claim use of the game within the context of the esports scene.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
I think KeSPA's argument is pretty much that the esports scene constitutes something greater than just the game. Other points they make are secondary to that overarching narrative.
They've conceded that they would be willing to pay a fee (which could be determined through some manner of arbitration, I guess) for the use of the game, and the argument quoted above seems most useful in explaining why KeSPA would not have to now pay that same fee as payment for the past ten years.
The issue I have with this is that Blizzard/Gretech doesn't have to accept the money. It is their right to refuse KeSPA. If the precedent is set that KeSPA can just go ahead and ignore that right, then that opens up a whole can of worms with other games.
It would give KeSPA the right to use any game it wishes regardless of the IP holders.
Wasn't Kespa it self selling rights to stations like OGN for them to broadcast BW. Any ownership they have of BW is just illusion. Yet they still profited off it by making other people pay them. How can we be so quick to yell at gretech?
On October 14 2010 03:21 ffreakk wrote: ^ This guy (broz0rs) like many others seem to take the word "IP rights" to be an end-all-be-all kind of rule.. It is not so at all, and to what extent one can enforce their IP rights often needs ruling from higher authority (e.g. courts).
That said, i stand by the belief that Gretech is doing its best to kill off its competitor without gaining some bad reps.. Their nit-picking on MBC despite it having done nothing wrong is (imo) a clear indicator. Since Gretech is so stuck on the legal side of things, why is MBC who did exactly as they were told (stop all broadcasting after 31 August) suddenly become the bad guy? Is it not because they just needed some guy to pick on and not agree to terms of the negotiations?
Anyhow, one side is looking to preserve Brood War (whatever other people infer their ulterior motives to be), and the other is killing it off for some random RTS. Picking a side has never been easier
@ Intrique
Many people are "boycotting" BW not so much cos of hating on Gretech/Blizz but more so because it (pardon me) outright sucks, in my (our) opinion.. I enjoy myself way more watching/playing DotA or Civilization recently.
is this guy a troll? you are talking on a forum that was founded due to the epicness of the bw scene. you are basically stomping on the accomplishments of boxer, oov, and all the old greats who built up the scene with your ignorant remark.
*edit* nvm he mistyped bw with SC2 in last section.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
I think KeSPA's argument is pretty much that the esports scene constitutes something greater than just the game. Other points they make are secondary to that overarching narrative.
They've conceded that they would be willing to pay a fee (which could be determined through some manner of arbitration, I guess) for the use of the game, and the argument quoted above seems most useful in explaining why KeSPA would not have to now pay that same fee as payment for the past ten years.
The issue I have with this is that Blizzard/Gretech doesn't have to accept the money. It is their right to refuse KeSPA. If the precedent is set that KeSPA can just go ahead and ignore that right, then that opens up a whole can of worms with other games.
It would give KeSPA the right to use any game it wishes regardless of the IP holders.
That's a fair point. I'd argue, first and pragmatically, that establishing the ownership of the game developers over all uses of the game might be an ever worse issue. But secondly, this is another point where infinity and Wax's comments about Blizzard's lack of action towards the BW scene until the recent future might be used.
Surely in not actually addressing the BW scene in Korea for a substantial period of time, Blizzard de facto recognized it? They can surely not claim to have not known about it.
On October 14 2010 08:12 FindingPride wrote: Wasn't Kespa it self selling rights to stations like OGN for them to broadcast BW. Any ownership they have of BW is just illusion. Yet they still profited off it by making other people pay them. How can we be so quick to yell at gretech?
Another thing to mention is what FP says here; the emphasis for Blizzard's interest in the Korean scene was not really tied to Sc2, so much as the broadcast controversy where KeSPA twisted the arms of OGN and MBC in order to get them to pay KeSPA for the leagues. Blizzard then argues that KeSPA was selling a product it really didn't have ownership of. So the important precursor to KeSPA's current position is that KeSPA believes it has the right to control the whole BW scene, the game being only a part of that whole product. Eventually, it works out into a consistent position (it seems to me, at least) but it's not immediately apparent just what each side claims ownership of.
Sc2 then comes into this, as a highly likely explanation for Gretech's childish motives, and for Blizzard's recent power-play.
Interestingly for your analogy, depending on the length of time you let your friend remain in your yard, he may have a claim to the property.
This is surely what Kespa is hoping the courts decide. My point being contrary to those who think Gretech is evil and is trying to purposely kill the BW scene. It is clear to me that Kespa is the one who is intruding, and should be the one to back down if they have any honor at all. It may in COURT be decided that they actually DO have the rights, but because something is legal, doesn't mean that it is right and just.
EPT
