It appears that the negotiations between Gretech and KeSPA have broken down for good. On October 11th, Gretech warned KeSPA not to proceed with any tournaments before an agreement was reached, but KeSPA went ahead and officially announced the new Proleague season on the 13th. In response, Gretech has stated "There will be no further negotiations."
Regarding the situation, KeSPA stated "It was not proper etiquette for Gretech to send us a final notice only days before our scheduled opening day. Many players and fans are awaiting the Proleague, and we cannot push back its start. We will continue to try and negotiate afterwards."
On the other hand, Gretech solidified its stance to cease negotiations with KeSPA, stating irreconcilable differences.
Both sides knew what was coming. The biggest question that I have, however, is if Gretech knew about the opening date or not.
If Gretech did not know about the date, then it's KeSPA's fault that they caused the negotiations to cease. However, If Gretech knew about the date, then it's their fault for not asking KeSPA to delay Proleague while not trying to sign with KeSPA for past couple of weeks.
Well Kespa won't care, but the main problem might be sponsors and teams (who are sponsored, obviously) being more reluctant to commit when there's still a legal threat hanging over the whole operation.
On October 14 2010 00:05 supernovamaniac wrote: Both sides knew what was coming. The biggest question that I have, however, is if Gretech knew about the opening date or not.
KeSPA had announced their prospective opening date for the new PL season as early/late as September 28th. That said, negotiations between the two sides had been going for several months prior.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Not imo, do you realize the money they're asking for is pretty much symbolic, and most likely less than what Kespa previously had to pay? But yeah easy to blame when you have no clue.
Really, Gretech is at fault? Do you want to provide some form of reason for that statement other then a blind reaction without thought?
Kespa announced the new season before they had purchased the rights to do so. They were told explicitly not to do this, yet they did anyway. This to me seems to be the way they operate, with a sense of self importance and disregard for who they are negotiating with.
I know that there are so many unknown factors here, and what demands were being made is not clear on either side. However it is Kespa that took the final step and stopped negotiations by their actions.
It is quite sad, and I am really pissed that this looks to all blow up in everyone's faces.
On October 14 2010 00:05 supernovamaniac wrote: Both sides knew what was coming. The biggest question that I have, however, is if Gretech knew about the opening date or not.
KeSPA had announced their prospective opening date for the new PL season as early/late as September 28th. That said, negotiations between the two sides had been going for several months prior.
Prospective opening date does not mean a confirmed date. But it does raise a good point that Gretech knew what was coming
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
I'm not. All I've seen so far is approximately three groups looking out solely for their own interests; Kespa has proven in the past they'd seriously harm brood war before they'd compromise on their interests; Gretech and Blizzard are no different. It always feels stupid to watch people try to paint heroes and villains when everyone is a villain trying to put on a heroic face.
As someone who would much, MUCH rather have both scenes frolicking arm in arm through a meadow, it's all very much bullshit. : |
If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
I'm not. All I've seen so far is approximately three groups looking out solely for their own interests; Kespa has proven in the past they'd seriously harm brood war before they'd compromise on their interests; Gretech and Blizzard are no different. It always feels stupid to watch people try to paint heroes and villains when everyone is a villain trying to put on a heroic face.
As someone who would much, MUCH rather have both scenes frolicking arm in arm through a meadow, it's all very much bullshit. : |
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Then mistakes on my part. I hope that the next OGN preliminaries (which will happen most likely next week, if not 2 weeks) was negotiated beforehand; at least now we will know Gretech's motivations after the preliminaries.
On October 14 2010 00:15 Waxangel wrote: If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Exactly, and until we know more of the demands made by both sides no one organization can be blamed, or be pronounced guilt free.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Without Proleague, Starleagues will die. Killing KeSPA *is* killing BW as a whole in the long run. I would say both motives brought up here is wrong. I'm not defending either party at this point, however.
tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Without Proleague, Starleagues will die. Killing KeSPA *is* killing BW as a whole in the long run. I would say both motives brought up here is wrong. I'm not defending either party at this point, however.
tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have.
I want to know what Shinhan is thinking.
What else could it be, other than they convinced Shinhan Bank that they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard in court, or at least be able to drag it out for longer than a season? KeSPA might be stupid from time to time, but a major Korean bank has got to be smarter right?
To be honest, I've had problems with people posting in SC forums. When SC2 fans come in here supporting Blizzard or some hardcore fans come in here supporting KeSPA, I don't mind the discussion. However, I don't like the ignorance from both sides.
Waxangel: First would only work if Korean government/laws backs KeSPA. I see that latter is more highly likely.
On October 14 2010 00:21 Milkis wrote: tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have.
I want to know what Shinhan is thinking.
That attitude is my biggest problem with Kespa. I do not think it is a rumor at this stage because they seem to want the fight in court by their actions. I am also worried about the sponsors.
I so wish I knew what Gretech was asking for in these negotiations. If it is reasonable or not. We need that information to judge the motives of both parties. I do not understand how people are so willing to rush to decide who is at fault with little to no facts.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Without Proleague, Starleagues will die. Killing KeSPA *is* killing BW as a whole in the long run. I would say both motives brought up here is wrong. I'm not defending either party at this point, however.
tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have.
I want to know what Shinhan is thinking.
What else could it be, other than they convinced Shinhan Bank that they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard in court, or at least be able to drag it out for longer than a season?
Even if they convinced Shinhan bank they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard, it still looks bad to host an "illegal" league. I really, really don't know what's going on, but I'm sure there are some intricate calculations involved by KeSPA overall -_-
i really hope it isn't as simple as "dur dur lets kill'em in court"
On October 14 2010 00:25 supernovamaniac wrote: Waxangel: First would only work if Korean government/laws backs KeSPA. I see that latter is more highly likely.
That's what I assume right now. That the KeSPA lawyers showed Shinhan that they have a very solid case against Gretech, or that KeSPA told them they have some government shit in their pocket.
dang can somebody make a documentary or even a movie about this?? its getting really intense!! but seriously though, i dont get the deal about gretech. is it about the money? or the air times. if its the latter why dont they do what OGN and MBC did and start their own channel in Korea so they wont need to push BW away. or just patch BW fixing Windows Vista/7 glitches so that they get more profit.
On October 14 2010 00:10 konadora wrote: where is phoenix wright, we need this dude.
Unless of course, Gretech is the defense. Then, Kespa is doomed. :p
Either way, this is really sad. Maybe, just MAYBE, details of the negotiations may be leaked? I know one of the KT Coaches did comment about "the upsetting nature" of the negotiations between the two parties. I really want to know how bad the debates must have been for him to even state that.
On October 14 2010 00:25 supernovamaniac wrote: Waxangel: First would only work if Korean government/laws backs KeSPA. I see that latter is more highly likely.
That's what I assume right now. That the KeSPA lawyers showed Shinhan that they have a very solid case against Gretech, or that KeSPA told them they have some government shit in their pocket.
Also, I don't think a bank company like Shinhan is THAT stupid enough to fall into some tricks, so they must have a good foundation.
Finally ! I was geting sick of all the negotiations and rumors .
On October 14 2010 00:15 Waxangel wrote: If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
But how will there be OSL without Proleague ? Kespa is owning all the proteams . If Kespa dies there goes the salaries of hundreds of progamers and thousands of people lose their jobs . BW scene will lower itself to the level of the SC2 scene which is like 10 years of devolution . Well not that i'm surprised it's basically what Blizzard and Gretech wants ...
The fact that Shinhan Bank agreed to sponsor Proleague again this year makes me think that Kespa knows what they're doing .
Well, it's all down to watching the show unfold now. I wish they could co-exist but it's obviously not happening under two different organizations. Sucks they couldn't come to an agreement.
Does anyone have any estimates on how long this case should last considering the situation? Because I really think KeSPA will appeal it's way to the top court and try to change the law if it really has to(I'm assuming Korean judicial is similar to US, if anyone knows otherwise please correct me). This was inevitable, I truly saw no resolution outside of court for this issue because they both seemed to be pretty adamant about their demands.
lol this is becoming a huge joke KeSPA needs to stop doing dumb shit like this, and Gretech needs to stop acting like little kids.. this shit was announced before oct 13th. Seems to me they're just trying to look for an excuse to kill off KeSPA
On October 14 2010 00:15 Waxangel wrote: If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
But how will there be OSL without Proleague ? Kespa is owning all the proteams . If Kespa dies there goes the salaries of hundreds of progamers and thousands of people lose their jobs . BW scene will lower itself to the level of the SC2 scene which is like 10 years of devolution . Well not that i'm surprised it's basically what Blizzard and Gretech wants ...
Well if I had to speculate some more, and I think this is as far as I'll go...
If I'm assuming Gretech want KeSPA and MBCGame's leagues dead, I think they would do it largely out of principle, because of the latter two parties' continuation of their leagues without getting a license from Gretech. That showed their disrespect for Gretech and the rights they bought from Blizzard. They would still be willing to negotiate with anyone who is cordial to them and will talk on their terms.
Gretech would be getting the significant bonus of ridding themselves of competition, but it would not have been their ultimate goal from the beginning (despite it being the most beneficial outcome). For them to go in with the explicit goal of killing all Brood War tournament organizers is too cynical and evil to be plausible to me.
On October 14 2010 00:42 lokiM wrote: lol this is becoming a huge joke KeSPA needs to stop doing dumb shit like this, and Gretech needs to stop acting like little kids.. this shit was announced before oct 13th. Seems to me they're just trying to look for an excuse to kill off KeSPA
Seriously what's so dumb about it? Even though I don't know exactly what has been going on with the negotiations, it didn't seem like KeSPA had a choice. Gretech/Blizzard with what I feel is preposterous demands only want to kill BW to get more attention to SC2.
Well I guess things are finally firming up. But whatever the outcome is I'm not looking forward to it. It would've been nice to see flexibility on either sides, but I doubt everyone will be holding hands and singing kumbaya after this.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Without Proleague, Starleagues will die. Killing KeSPA *is* killing BW as a whole in the long run. I would say both motives brought up here is wrong. I'm not defending either party at this point, however.
tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have.
I want to know what Shinhan is thinking.
What else could it be, other than they convinced Shinhan Bank that they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard in court, or at least be able to drag it out for longer than a season? KeSPA might be stupid from time to time, but a major Korean bank has got to be smarter right?
There could be a lot more going on than just that lol.
Or they have some sort of pull-out clause in the contract incase KESPA loses, or Shinhan is getting a great deal. Whether or not KESPA wins this case, it's still a shitload of exposure for Shinhan.
Well then if they are going to court it means that there is going to be a lot of time before the issue gets resolved and until then its business as usual....
The statement might be a little off since US/Korean Laws(or law in general) are not my area of expertise.
Well then if they are going to court it means that there is going to be a lot of time before the issue gets resolved and until then its business as usual....
Not really. They can file for an injunction to prevent KeSPA from going forward until there is a ruling.
Well then if they are going to court it means that there is going to be a lot of time before the issue gets resolved and until then its business as usual....
Not really. They can file for an injunction to prevent KeSPA from going forward until there is a ruling.
hmmm.....
Is there a downside to gretech for filing an injunction?I know this is really no the place to ask this..
I really hope they don't because then Action would lose his new job(so would everyone else)and be out of money and remember that I owez him mineralz.
As happy as I am to see the proleauge potentially going forward, Kespa's attitude of "fuck it, we'll deal with this later" can only be bad in the long run.
Shinhan Bank are going to get more public exposure from this inevitably court case (where it's worth noting they will be viewed as innocent bystanders) than the last 3 proleagues combined in all likelihood. It's such a public cat fight that their logo is going to be featured heavily and potentially for years to come depending on the fallout. Their sponsorship really will mean nothing with regards to their confidence in the result of the litigation.
That said Korea has a well documented problem with corruption and I imagine Shinhan, as well as KeSPA and the sponsors that form it, will be considerably more likely to be in a position of power in that manner. Bare in mind i'm not insinuating giving the guy $20 in a handshake, it's more akin to the lobbying and political office funding of the USA as I understand it, but more out of hand.
Well then if they are going to court it means that there is going to be a lot of time before the issue gets resolved and until then its business as usual....
Not really. They can file for an injunction to prevent KeSPA from going forward until there is a ruling.
hmmm.....
Is there a downside to gretech for filing an injunction?I know this is really no the place to ask this..
I really hope they don't because then Action would lose his new job(so would everyone else)and be out of money and remember that I owez him mineralz.
I don't know what you mean by "down side", but you basically need to petition the court, and give a good reason for the injunction. I don't see any reason why the court wouldn't.
Well then if they are going to court it means that there is going to be a lot of time before the issue gets resolved and until then its business as usual....
Not really. They can file for an injunction to prevent KeSPA from going forward until there is a ruling.
hmmm.....
Is there a downside to gretech for filing an injunction?I know this is really no the place to ask this...
fyi injunctions aren't the end of the story
what kespa is probably gonna do is put in a bail and go on with it while the trial is ongoing. you can do that in korea apparently if it relates to IP rights.
Hopefully Korean court isn't bribed silly by Blizzard. Maybe they will side with KeSPA and the SPL can go on for a while more. KeSPA created the scene without any help from Blizzard. Bad move from Blizz/Gretech to come back and being tough on negotiations. If SC2 was worth anything it wouldn't have to be scared of a 2D RTS
On October 14 2010 01:28 Ryo wrote: I'm taking this decision to proceed with proleague as an indication that Kespa is confident they have the government's backing on this one.
I really really hope thats the case, and that it works out in their favor. Too much riding on this.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Without Proleague, Starleagues will die. Killing KeSPA *is* killing BW as a whole in the long run. I would say both motives brought up here is wrong. I'm not defending either party at this point, however.
tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have.
I want to know what Shinhan is thinking.
What else could it be, other than they convinced Shinhan Bank that they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard in court, or at least be able to drag it out for longer than a season?
Even if they convinced Shinhan bank they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard, it still looks bad to host an "illegal" league. I really, really don't know what's going on, but I'm sure there are some intricate calculations involved by KeSPA overall -_-
i really hope it isn't as simple as "dur dur lets kill'em in court"
Well it's not illegal until a court rules in favour of Gretech. For now, it's simply disputed.
Well then if they are going to court it means that there is going to be a lot of time before the issue gets resolved and until then its business as usual....
Not really. They can file for an injunction to prevent KeSPA from going forward until there is a ruling.
hmmm.....
Is there a downside to gretech for filing an injunction?I know this is really no the place to ask this...
fyi injunctions aren't the end of the story
what kespa is probably gonna do is put in a bail and go on with it while the trial is ongoing. you can do that in korea apparently if it relates to IP rights.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Dude, KeSPA are acting like little children refusing to pay up for the rights to broadcast.
If it's anyones fault BW is dying it's KeSPAs.....
Dude, it is obviously not about the money. KeSPA has said that they are willing to pay long time ago. It is about MBC and conflicts with GSL. GreTech has too strong a stance on MBC and time slot issues.
From the beginning, the whole point of GreTech is to kill BW, they are just not willing to negotiate, it is always not about that little IP right money. And Kespa has said they want to pay long time ago.
With the recent exodus of players, I personally find the outcome of the negotiations to be irrelevant, though I suppose you could argue that fewer players would have left if negotiations had gone better.
I find Gretech's firm stance in these negotiations easy to understand. Any precident set by BroodWar will translate over to SC2. If they let KeSPA get away with ignoring their exclusive broadcast rights, then anyone can do the same for SC2. Without exclusive rights Gretech would be much more hesitant to invest in SC2, imo.
On October 14 2010 02:05 Klimpen wrote: With the recent exodus of players, I personally find the outcome of there's negotiations to be irrelevant, though I suppose you could argue that fewer players would have left if negotiations had gone better.
I find Gretech's firm stance in these negotiations easy to understand. Any precident set by BroodWar will translate over to SC2. If they let KeSPA get away with ignoring their exclusive broadcast rights, then anyone can do the same for SC2. Without exclusive rights Gretech would be much more hesitant to invest in SC2, imo.
SC2 is different from BW, in SC2's agreement, everything is written. But not in BW's agreement.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
GSL didn't exist last season. They had nothing to lose from the popularity of BW. Now, they don't mind BW as long as it doesn't compete for viewership with the GSL.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Dude, KeSPA are acting like little children refusing to pay up for the rights to broadcast.
If it's anyones fault BW is dying it's KeSPAs.....
Dude, it is obviously not about the money. KeSPA has said that they are willing to pay long time ago. It is about MBC and conflicts with GSL. GreTech has too strong a stance on MBC and time slot issues.
I also think this is the main reason why the negotiations broke down
It's really wrong to just say that they want to kill off BW because if I recall they only wanted to kill off proleague after their negotiations with MBC went sour
I'm thinking KeSPA's plan is to take it to court and then use the media to show how "evil" Gretech is for trying to kill off BW. If they do win in courts, then it's double win, they continue PL and Gretech gets a real bad rap. However, I really don't see a plan B if they actually lose.
On October 14 2010 02:05 Klimpen wrote: With the recent exodus of players, I personally find the outcome of there's negotiations to be irrelevant, though I suppose you could argue that fewer players would have left if negotiations had gone better.
I find Gretech's firm stance in these negotiations easy to understand. Any precident set by BroodWar will translate over to SC2. If they let KeSPA get away with ignoring their exclusive broadcast rights, then anyone can do the same for SC2. Without exclusive rights Gretech would be much more hesitant to invest in SC2, imo.
SC2 is different from BW, in SC2's agreement, everything is written. But not in BW's agreement.
Not true - it's all still there in SCBW. The only difference between SC and SC2 is that SC2 goes through the central server at Blizzard, and they can enforce whatever rules they want no matter what. If someone tried to do something like this in SC2, Blizzard can merely disable their accounts, and they couldn't do a thing about it. This is the main reason that KeSPA is afraid of the game.
On October 14 2010 02:17 teamsolid wrote: I'm thinking KeSPA's plan is to take it to court and then use the media to show how "evil" Gretech is for trying to kill off BW. If they do win in courts, then it's double win, they continue PL and Gretech gets a real bad rap. However, I really don't see a plan B if they actually lose.
They don't need the media if they have the Ministry of Culture's full backing.
Theres a reason only Gretech got the rights to SC in the first place. Part of this reason is KeSPAs seeming need to do what they feel like doing, without the agreement of the other party who seemingly has them by the balls. Seems like not a lot has changed in their mindset.
I want PL, but cant blame Gretech for their actions looking back on history.
On October 14 2010 02:05 Klimpen wrote: With the recent exodus of players, I personally find the outcome of there's negotiations to be irrelevant, though I suppose you could argue that fewer players would have left if negotiations had gone better.
I find Gretech's firm stance in these negotiations easy to understand. Any precident set by BroodWar will translate over to SC2. If they let KeSPA get away with ignoring their exclusive broadcast rights, then anyone can do the same for SC2. Without exclusive rights Gretech would be much more hesitant to invest in SC2, imo.
SC2 is different from BW, in SC2's agreement, everything is written. But not in BW's agreement.
Mind citing your source? I have a hard time believing that Blizzard doesn't have a written agreement with Gretech concerning BW. If you're referring to the EULA, they're barely worth the bytes they take up on your hdd. I highly doubt any EULA has factored into dicussions in any major way.
On October 14 2010 02:17 teamsolid wrote: I'm thinking KeSPA's plan is to take it to court and then use the media to show how "evil" Gretech is for trying to kill off BW. If they do win in courts, then it's double win, they continue PL and Gretech gets a real bad rap. However, I really don't see a plan B if they actually lose.
I have yet to see a court of law where evilness was an acceptable term for dismissal of a case. Might try the chewbacca defense, though.
So for those of us who are less booked up on this issue and can't find a single, concise explanation of the situation...
So what? Kespa is going to go on without Gretech's permission, but what authority does Gretech have exactly? That has never been clear to me. Furthermore... Why are either of these companies the BW authorities? I have read a ton of posts and threads and I cannot make heads or tails of this without having to try and read a ton of additional information that only serves to further confuse my simple brain.
On October 14 2010 02:32 Sleight wrote: So for those of us who are less booked up on this issue and can't find a single, concise explanation of the situation...
So what? Kespa is going to go on without Gretech's permission, but what authority does Gretech have exactly? That has never been clear to me. Furthermore... Why are either of these companies the BW authorities? I have read a ton of posts and threads and I cannot make heads or tails of this without having to try and read a ton of additional information that only serves to further confuse my simple brain.
Gretech has the broadcasting rights to all Blizzard games in korea . Kespa has developed BW e - sports to the highest standarts possible right now .
Reading the first page of this thread makes me want to gauge out my eyes. How can so many people still be misinformed. I mean we have threads and threads of useful tid bits. If you are going to comment, how about enlightening yourselves without Waxy having to do it for you? He isn't a babysitter. :/
On October 14 2010 02:17 teamsolid wrote: I'm thinking KeSPA's plan is to take it to court and then use the media to show how "evil" Gretech is for trying to kill off BW. If they do win in courts, then it's double win, they continue PL and Gretech gets a real bad rap. However, I really don't see a plan B if they actually lose.
I have yet to see a court of law where evilness was an acceptable term for dismissal of a case. Might try the chewbacca defense, though.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
This reasoning is flawed, mate. To me it seems like they want to kill-off BW, while at the same time save their face - that's all there is to it. You know why? Because they know that without ProLeague BW progaming will die regardless of whether they let OGN broadcast OSL or not.
On October 14 2010 02:42 Masq wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt Gretech owned by a parent company of CJ?
So really, this is just CJ taking over, and not really any blizzard vs kespa battle.
CJ owns 50% of a company that owns 25?% of Gretech. And I think they said they don't control gretech's activity. That being said, they ARE fighting within KeSPA for power.
On October 14 2010 02:42 Masq wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt Gretech owned by a parent company of CJ?
So really, this is just CJ taking over, and not really any blizzard vs kespa battle.
CJ owns 50% of a company that owns 25?% of Gretech. And I think they said they don't control gretech's activity. That being said, they ARE fighting within KeSPA for power.
Regardless of the percentages, its pretty much impossible to assume they don't have any interests in this. Sure they say they don't control Gretechs activity, but I'm sure they contribute.
Seems like the best solution would be for Gretech to be reasonable and let them broadcast Proleague, but also for MBC and Kespa to be reasonable, and broadcast it in time slots so that it doesn't conflict with GSL 2.
On October 14 2010 02:59 Hinanawi wrote: Seems like the best solution would be for Gretech to be reasonable and let them broadcast Proleague, but also for MBC and Kespa to be reasonable, and broadcast it in time slots so that it doesn't conflict with GSL 2.
I think the best solution is for kespa to operate similar to how they have been operating and not let gretech try to slowly kill off bw by pushing it off of time slots and feeding off the scene that bw built up.
No matter how "evil" KeSPA is, it has contributed to the development of the eSports in Korea much more than Gretech/Blizz. It has created such a good model where players are actually receiving a monthly salary for their involvement. Now Gretech wants to return us 10 years back where a few shiny tournaments (with shiny prize money) are all there is. Gretech is also alienating the biggest Korean companies (the likes of Samsung, Shinhan, CJ, SKT, KT...) which have invested millions of dollars into the eSports scene in Korea. Good job Gretech.
On the other hand, this kind of IP rights conflict was never, ever, before seen in court. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out. It is even more exciting then the leagues itself... Just joking.
^ This guy (broz0rs) like many others seem to take the word "IP rights" to be an end-all-be-all kind of rule.. It is not so at all, and to what extent one can enforce their IP rights often needs ruling from higher authority (e.g. courts).
That said, i stand by the belief that Gretech is doing its best to kill off its competitor without gaining some bad reps.. Their nit-picking on MBC despite it having done nothing wrong is (imo) a clear indicator. Since Gretech is so stuck on the legal side of things, why is MBC who did exactly as they were told (stop all broadcasting after 31 August) suddenly become the bad guy? Is it not because they just needed some guy to pick on and not agree to terms of the negotiations?
Anyhow, one side is looking to preserve Brood War (whatever other people infer their ulterior motives to be), and the other is killing it off for some random RTS. Picking a side has never been easier
@ Intrique
Many people are "boycotting" BW not so much cos of hating on Gretech/Blizz but more so because it (pardon me) outright sucks, in my (our) opinion.. I enjoy myself way more watching/playing DotA or Civilization recently.
The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
If it goes KeSPA's way i wonder if SC2 would be opened up more in Korea so leagues could be run with only a license fee paid and not more control by Blizzard. That would be the best for eSports. They might decide its in the Korean publics best interest that a game can have a professional scene without the complete control of the developer.
Think what you will of Kespa's deeds in the past. Now is the time to root for Kespa and hope Proleague can continue. But the damage is done already. Players and coaches jumped ship already, two teams have closed down. Even if Kespa wins, the Broodwar scene will be but a shadow of its former self.
I'm a diehard bw fan despite my recent stint laddering on bnet. SC2 is a well-crafted game and has its own merits, but imo it's still doesn't live completely up the unique beauty of Broodwars. Still, as much as I'd like to see Broodwar continue as it was forever, the writing's already on the wall that it isn't. In light of that I'd rather see it go out with a bang than a whimper. If Kespa wins this case, sure proleague will go on for another season or 2, but SC2 has already robbed it of all its foundations, and it'll just die pathetically from financial insolvency. Instead, I hope Gretech wins in a highly publicized and controversial case, by the thinnest of margins, while proleague runs for one last time. Then we can have one last hurrah at the last match and remember fondly the decade we had where the greatest game ever made was played professionally. As for SC2, I think it will stale unless the patches do something drastic. Not that it does not require skill, but the key "money" moments in SC2 can't compare to a marine bust against lurkers, or a swarm barely holding off a push, or 100 pop of dragoons melting in a climactic battle. There's little spectator value for people who don't avidly play and understand the game. Hopefully the expansions will fix that. If not....
Would it be fun if they settle this by Grudgematch? Play SC2 with Flash representing KeSPA vs. each GSL semifinalist: Fruitseller, HopeTorture, LiveForever, oGsEnsnare. Then play BW with Fruitseller representing Gretech vs. each OSL semifinalist: Flash, Jaedong, Stork, free. If the overall score is a tie, they go another round.
Many people are "boycotting" BW not so much cos of hating on Gretech/Blizz but more so because it (pardon me) outright sucks, in my (our) opinion.. I enjoy myself way more watching/playing DotA or Civilization recently.
I believe that are people who think that BW sucks. But they aren't "many", like you say. There are "many" who think it's a very enjoyable e-sports, and these are the people who enjoyed it for 10 years and are very worried with this situation.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: If it goes KeSPA's way i wonder if SC2 would be opened up more in Korea so leagues could be run with only a license fee paid and not more control by Blizzard. That would be the best for eSports. They might decide its in the Korean publics best interest that a game can have a professional scene without the complete control of the developer.
That would never happen with SC2. Blizzard will just start banning accounts used or other methods as long as the game requires BNet to work.
Any court victory, if it ever happens, won't allow KESPA or any other organization to run their own servers without causing an even bigger shitstorm of controversy by every game developer in the world.
It's Blizzard trying to strong arm it's presence into the starcraft bw professional scene. It makes sense from their perspective: they made the game, they made it good, and they want to be recognized for it.
Korea sees it differently. Korea, ever since the end of WWII has been feircely protective of it's commerce, culture, and corporations. They have done everything in their power time and time again to maintain their identity. They Korean government has been notorious for the past 40 years for working very, VERY closely with its corporations to ensure their success and individuality. There is a reason Korean came to be one of the most successful economic countries in the past 40 years. The Korean government is ruthless in protecting Korean commerce. They banned all Japanese cultural imports throughout the 70's, 80's, and 90's (no Playstations, Jpop). They did pretty much everything in their power to make sure that companies like Samsung, Hyundai, and LG would succeed.
The Korean people take a great pride in their identity and growth.
The Korean government and people are again facing a similar dillema with the starcraft scene. They see Proleague, MSL, and OSL as a cultural cornerstone and a Korean product to be consumed by Korean people. They're willing to pay Blizzard and Gretech any amount of money, they just will do anything to prevent outside and non-Korean influence on a cultural treasure.
On October 14 2010 03:56 hku wrote: This isn't about money. This ISN'T about money.
It's Blizzard trying to strong arm it's presence into the starcraft bw professional scene. It makes sense from their perspective: they made the game, they made it good, and they want to be recognized for it.
Korea sees it differently. Korea, ever since the end of WWII has been feircely protective of it's commerce, culture, and corporations. They have done everything in their power time and time again to maintain their identity. They Korean government has been notorious for the past 40 years for working very, VERY closely with its corporations to ensure their success and individuality. There is a reason Korean came to be one of the most successful economic countries in the past 40 years. The Korean government is ruthless in protecting Korean commerce. They banned all Japanese cultural imports throughout the 70's, 80's, and 90's (no Playstations, Jpop). They did pretty much everything in their power to make sure that companies like Samsung, Hyundai, and LG would succeed.
The Korean people take a great pride in their identity and growth.
The Korean government and people are again facing a similar dillema with the starcraft scene. They see Proleague, MSL, and OSL as a cultural cornerstone and a Korean product to be consumed by Korean people. They're willing to pay Blizzard and Gretech any amount of money, they just will do anything to prevent outside and non-Korean influence on a cultural treasure.
1. I don't know what the hell you are talking about; I owned a PS in the mid 90's. My friends had PS by the end of 90s.
2. Korean people take a great pride in what they (we) did. We started the Starcraft scene, and we are proud of what we have done with the scene.
Is KeSPA really trying to prevent outside/non-Korean influence by paying them money? By paying the money, it already shows that KeSPA accepts their terms and agrees to their existence. I think you have a faulty logic here: If KeSPA really wanted Blizzard to stay out of this, they would have ignored them as a whole (a.k.a. no negotiations whatsoever).
Sure, it's not about money. But it's not for the reasons that you have posted either.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
This reasoning is flawed, mate. To me it seems like they want to kill-off BW, while at the same time save their face - that's all there is to it. You know why? Because they know that without ProLeague BW progaming will die regardless of whether they let OGN broadcast OSL or not.
They may not have any animosity towards the game, but they certainly want to kill off the entire organization that makes BW happen, which is essentially going to kill BW.
It'd be like saying you have nothing against hockey, you just want to break the knees of Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin, and then move all the Canadian teams down to South Florida.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
That is a very good point.
If it goes KeSPA's way i wonder if SC2 would be opened up more in Korea so leagues could be run with only a license fee paid and not more control by Blizzard. That would be the best for eSports. They might decide its in the Korean publics best interest that a game can have a professional scene without the complete control of the developer.
Combining this thought with your previous one gives us a very plausible motive for Gretech/Blizzard to fight KeSPA! If they wouldn't interfere with BW they could hardly argue in court that they see themselves as the ones who should naturally have control over SC2 esports. That thought should have occurred to them when they started planning for SC2, early enough to explain the whole conflict from the beginning. Regarding the importance of that factor, the topic of IP has become central in a lot of areas during the last decade. It's very reasonable that a game company should think about how far their rights to their games go and stake their claim early. Especially if they are entering new ground like esports. Maybe in the future revenues from esports marketing could even surpass the initial sales revenues for games, so if a game company can secure a certain part of that money and influence, it would mean a lot to them. Thus, a court decision deciding whether they can control that market is highly significant to them. And Korea is the first country where that question will come up (or already did by now), so they might be fighting for a precedent here.
I seriously believe that this court case was what all parties had been concentrating on from the beginning. They knew they could postpone it for a while, but they also knew they would want to fight it eventually. So they probably all positioned themselves accordingly. That could also explain the rush with which GomTV is starting the SC2 leagues, where I guess Blizzard plays an important role. That way they show the court how much they are already invested in esports.
As for the future. Uncertainty as from an open court case is poison for businesses. So even if KeSPA can continue running the leagues, I think it will be much harder to get sponsors. I just hope they win the court battle in the name of free esports.
this could become the biggest trial in eSport history and i dont know why, but I have the feeling that KeSPA would have the better chances if it goes to court.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
I'm not. All I've seen so far is approximately three groups looking out solely for their own interests; Kespa has proven in the past they'd seriously harm brood war before they'd compromise on their interests; Gretech and Blizzard are no different. It always feels stupid to watch people try to paint heroes and villains when everyone is a villain trying to put on a heroic face.
As someone who would much, MUCH rather have both scenes frolicking arm in arm through a meadow, it's all very much bullshit. : |
Well said Kibibit. They're all looking for their own interests but KeSPA shouldn't have just gone and done away with negotiations like that. This will be a very bad move for the BW scene.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
I think that Gretech is just following the wishes of Blizzard. I'm not 100% sure if Blizzard is trying to kill off BW or not, but the fact that they gave exclusive rights to Gretech, and during the same times of the MSL and OSL finals, Blizzard had mini invitational SC2 show matches to compete with them could be just weird coincidences or not O_O I think that you can compare Blizzard to Iccup.Messer, a guy who is ruining the iccup server, and his subordinates are just following his terrible leadership.
Kespa, Gretech and Blizzard may all be "villains hiding under sheep's clothing". But what do I care? The only thing that matters here is that Kespa still has the interests of the BW fans, to CONTINUE Proleague.
But.... they are being IDIOTS in negotiating. Gretech is (to me) the real villain here. I know there is a long history behind this, that the negotiations are much more complex than that. BUT WHAT DO I CARE? Stop posting that Gretech is not as evil as we think; we like to think that way if Gretech is really trying to smother the BW scene.
Just stop posting such idiocy please. And besides, Blizzard has Bobby Kotick plastered all over it. That disgusts me enough already.
Many people are "boycotting" BW not so much cos of hating on Gretech/Blizz but more so because it (pardon me) outright sucks, in my (our) opinion.. I enjoy myself way more watching/playing DotA or Civilization recently.
I believe that are people who think that BW sucks. But they aren't "many", like you say. There are "many" who think it's a very enjoyable e-sports, and these are the people who enjoyed it for 10 years and are very worried with this situation.
Edit: Oh fk, its a typo, i meant to say SC2, not BW :p (deleted a paragraph where i tried to fire back at you xD)
Personally i feel that WC3 was a better game than SC2 with so much more innovations and breakthroughs.. We all know how WC3 turned out.. We will see how much longer SC2 can live off Brood War's hype.. There will come a time where it has to stand on its own two feet. And when that time comes, i dont think that it will stand for long.
On topic, the recent happenings in the BW scene looks terrible T_T .. I just hope it doesnt affect the scene too much. New players will (hopefully) come along, and whatever else that will follows after another successful season of Pro-League. It will be really sweet if by the time SC2 crumbles to dust, BW is still around :p
Edit: guy above, the surest way to get banned is saying that you expect it, man ...
On October 14 2010 02:59 Hinanawi wrote: Seems like the best solution would be for Gretech to be reasonable and let them broadcast Proleague, but also for MBC and Kespa to be reasonable, and broadcast it in time slots so that it doesn't conflict with GSL 2.
I think the best solution is for kespa to operate similar to how they have been operating and not let gretech try to slowly kill off bw by pushing it off of time slots and feeding off the scene that bw built up.
You mean like the time Kespa killed off the GOM Starleague when GOM tried to expand the BW scene to foreigners with English casting? Yeah, Kespa were really doing e-sports a great service back then, weren't they? But now Gretech should bend over and let Kespa do whatever they wish, and forget about how much they were shat on before?
Face it, this is partially karma for Kespa.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but trying to pretend Kespa isn't at least partially getting their just desserts is silly. I would like for both BW and SC2 to continue, and neither side is innocent in this debate.
Wouldn't YOU be pissed at Kespa if you were Gretech considering their past history, and doubt Kespa's honesty?
You mean like the time Kespa killed off the GOM Starleague when GOM tried to expand the BW scene to foreigners with English casting? Yeah, Kespa were really doing e-sports a great service back then, weren't they? But now Gretech should bend over and let Kespa do whatever they wish, and forget about how much they were shat on before?
Face it, this is partially karma for Kespa.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but trying to pretend Kespa isn't at least partially getting their just desserts is silly. I would like for both BW and SC2 to continue, and neither side is innocent in this debate.
Wouldn't YOU be pissed at Kespa if you were Gretech considering their past history, and doubt Kespa's honesty?
Even if this is true (and I guess it is, mostly) what does it change? GOM is trying to marginalize BW because it competes with their product, and possibly because they were asked to by Blizzard in order to promote the SC2 franchise. As a BW fan it doesn't matter to me that GOM has legitimate reasons to try to hurt KeSPA. If they succeed BW will suffer, so I want them to fail.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
No, KeSPA are definitely the bad guys. They've been screwing up the proscene basically since SKT took over
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
Eh? Blizzard has been trying to get kespa to stop acting like asshats ever since they tried to charge money to attend tournaments years and years ago. This is not by any means a recent event.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
spoken like a true fanboy who has no clue whats been going on
blizzard never authorized anything, infact they've been trying for years to make kespa respect their IP rights and pay them some licensing fees
No matter right or wrong, what I saw was Kespa getting an upper hand on this. They would never make such move without confidence to win a law suit, and with the government on its back, seems they do.
I wanna say that Gretech is the villain here, but KeSPA did some bad stuff too, considering the whole IP rights issues (this really kicked them in the rear >.<). Though, I have to say that if Proleague/MSL/OSL are all canceled for this, I will be pretty upset. =\
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
I'm not. All I've seen so far is approximately three groups looking out solely for their own interests; Kespa has proven in the past they'd seriously harm brood war before they'd compromise on their interests; Gretech and Blizzard are no different. It always feels stupid to watch people try to paint heroes and villains when everyone is a villain trying to put on a heroic face.
As someone who would much, MUCH rather have both scenes frolicking arm in arm through a meadow, it's all very much bullshit. : |
Well said. No one is in the right here. It is all a varying shade of gray.
they don't want to fight to the death but circumstances have led to the fact that they must
blizzard will win, but not without wounds
though in the end, they will have the glory
Gladiators didn't actually fight to the death (most of the time, at least). It's a popular misconception.
Anyway, I hope Blizzard gets devastated (be it by the Korean government shutting down SC2 or in court). I lost all my respect for them. Not going to buy any game from them anymore, unless it's another copy of BW.
yea, i doubt kespa can get away with this. If only blizzard could let it go that would be better. It seems that kespa is better at doing head banging contest.
This is unbelievable, I fail to see how gretech would gain anything by killing PL and MSL. Unless they see BW in Korea as sheep movement, 1 digit IQ kids who will buy anything once they can't be entertained by what they used to be. And this makes me really curious what were the demands that both sides couldn't agree on. Proleague's weekly schedule? I hope kespa couldn't wait any longer and is still going for at least settlement in court and not just an all in, we win or we die. Or just blizzard's and later gretech's demands were ridiculous enough to be used by kespa in court.
Can someone explain why they think anyone is trying to kill BW?
Lets say Blizzard was the one trying to kill BW. Why? For SC2? It feels like this situation is the same as Diablo 2 when WoW and WoW expansions came out. Why would Blizzard keep releasing content patches for D2, running new ladder seasons etc, when they wanted it to die? If they wanted to make people lose interest in D2, then buy WoW, they'd cut support and stop doing seasons. But they didn't do that.
Lets say Gretech wants to keep BW. Why? Since they have exclusive rights to Blizzard stuff, BW having a pro-scene can make them money. They are fighting for a product, not trying to eliminate the product completely. There is money to be made for them.
I just don't see why either would be trying to kill BW Please elaborate!
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
they don't want to fight to the death but circumstances have led to the fact that they must
blizzard will win, but not without wounds
though in the end, they will have the glory
Gladiators didn't actually fight to the death (most of the time, at least). It's a popular misconception.
Anyway, I hope Blizzard gets devastated (be it by the Korean government shutting down SC2 or in court). I lost all my respect for them. Not going to buy any game from them anymore, unless it's another copy of BW.
So much hate for Blizzard its disgusting. Look in the mirror man. They made the game you enjoy so much and has had its grip on Korea and yourselves since forever. Now when they demand rights to the game THEY MADE, their the bad people? We have no idea what is being demanded by either side but I highly doubt Blizzard just wants to kill BW. They are probably just looking for SC2 to be on more prime time air times. But even that could be wrong. We have no idea as to what is going on behind the scenes. And KeSPA is breaking the law without rights to broadcast BW. JUST BECAUSE THEY WON'T NEGOTIATE.
I'm tired of reading these hate posts from each side. It is a never ending cycle cause some people on each side can just not accept the other. And I'm pretty sure its the BW side towards SC2 since most people bashing the hell out of it are BW fanatics. This just leads to a much more split community which is never good. I want both games to thrive but this entire community is just splitting itself up because a few people are flinging poo at each other. Its disgusting. Grow up.
KeSPA should negotiate.
EDIT: Also really doubt Blizzard is just now confronting them with IP rights. And if you think it just magically started with the release of SC2. Links to actual articles please.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
I really hope it comes down to legal action, and that Gretech gets crushed in court. People who are saying that this is a sad development seem to be forgetting that Gretech's role is to enforce Blizzard's stranglehold on the Korean Starcraft community.
In the long run, there's no way to have a healthy progamer scene if constant negotiations are required with people like these. The Broodwar community doesn't need Blizzard, but it does need Kespa, OGN and MBC.
I have to laugh at those that think Blizzard just "magically" woke up a year before SC2 was to be released and started to want to get paid for Starcraft being used in a profitable way in Korea. The most hilarious thing that could happen with this going to court is Blizzard winning the ruling and then Kespa being forced to pay the IP rights for the past 10 years of televising Starcraft. That's really the worst case scenario for Kespa.
I don't care whose side you're on, but the truth of the matter is that Starcraft is Blizzard's game and they have the right to license it however and to whomever they want for whatever amount of money they seem fit. Right or wrong it's their right. NO ONE has the right to ignore them and then use their product for profit. That's not how things work in the real world.
I hate this drama, but honestly, I hope to GOD Kespa wins. I understand Blizzard is entitled to its say over its own products, but I'm weighing the consequences here just as a SCBW lover.
Kespa wins: Blizzard loses IP rights in Korea, Koreans continue playing a 10+ yr old game that virtually no countries care about. Blizzard loses potential profits off of Proleague and other starleagues, which they never really had anyway for the past 10 years. Blizzard loses face for losing to Korea and their stock drops marginally, since SC2 is infinitely more profitable. Gretech loses its new-found position as being the SCBW representative in Korea and reverts to SC2. Blizzard "loses" an administrative grip on the progaming scene in korea, which it never had anyway.
Blizzard wins: No Proleague Teams all disband or slowly whittle out Corporate interest falls due to falling TV rates Pay cuts for all progamers and coaches All top (and lower) progamers retire or move to SC2 No more SCBW progaming scene Legacy of Boxer, Yellow, Reach, Oov, Nada, July, ____, Jaedong, Flash, all slowly forgotten A decade of insane research and strategy analysis lost The original fire, flame, kindle of TL lost forever
The only thing I find surprising is that this was not solved months ago. My conclusion is that kespa never had the intention to make a deal. There has been ample time, so if this had any chance of happening, it should have happened a long time ago.
This is obviously just speculation, but I still find it somewhat shocking. A professional organisation banking its existence on a foreign companies ability to enforce IP rights just doesnt make sense.
I'm finding it weird as well that this has taken so damn long to reach closure. If nothing else they've really worked on making this as complicated as possible. And by that I'm referring to both Blizzard and Kespa.
Cant Gretech/Blizzard stop the Proleague with a cease and desist order if some judge grants them that? Dont know Korean justice system but as a western country Id imagine they have something like that.
If Blizzard wanted SC BW dead, they could've simply shut down the b.net support for it and stop carry about patching it up. Blizzard CARES. That's why they still have Diablo I servers up and running, even thou the game is much older then SC BW. WC2 b.net edition anyone ?
It's not a case of "killing the game". I believe Proleague and all the other SC BW tournaments that we've enjoyed so far, can continue to exist in the future. For me, the perfect day starts with catching up the latest SC BW games before lunch and watching the SC2 action after lunch. I hope this can continue for many years to come.
Call me a "blizz-boy" or whatever, but I'm sticking with them. IP rights are something very sensitive and KeSPA so far acted like they're North Koreans - disrespecting other laws, but their own - in many situation. The fact that no new faces are flowing into the old SC BW teams, is not because SC2 is more profitable, but because everyone there realized what pain in the ass is to be a B-team player. And if you all recall the "rigged matches" action that happened not long ago, KeSPA actually DID know about it, months before the investigation started, but did nothing.
None of the SC BW legacy will be forgotten ! Never ! All the good and the bad memories will stay on. As long as there's TeamLiquid.NET that is. Coz I'm not sure about Blizzard staying alive, after they've merged with such a crappy company as Activision that cares only about profit.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
On October 14 2010 03:56 hku wrote: This isn't about money. This ISN'T about money.
It's Blizzard trying to strong arm it's presence into the starcraft bw professional scene. It makes sense from their perspective: they made the game, they made it good, and they want to be recognized for it.
Korea sees it differently. Korea, ever since the end of WWII has been feircely protective of it's commerce, culture, and corporations. They have done everything in their power time and time again to maintain their identity. They Korean government has been notorious for the past 40 years for working very, VERY closely with its corporations to ensure their success and individuality. There is a reason Korean came to be one of the most successful economic countries in the past 40 years. The Korean government is ruthless in protecting Korean commerce. They banned all Japanese cultural imports throughout the 70's, 80's, and 90's (no Playstations, Jpop). They did pretty much everything in their power to make sure that companies like Samsung, Hyundai, and LG would succeed.
The Korean people take a great pride in their identity and growth.
The Korean government and people are again facing a similar dillema with the starcraft scene. They see Proleague, MSL, and OSL as a cultural cornerstone and a Korean product to be consumed by Korean people. They're willing to pay Blizzard and Gretech any amount of money, they just will do anything to prevent outside and non-Korean influence on a cultural treasure.
You act like Kespa/the koreans form one unity. Gretech and Kespa have different interests. And even Kespa itself is not one party fighting together. It's different companys with different interests. CJ probably wants Starcraft 2 to get big and fights against the rest of Kespa. You can be shure theres a ton of corruption arround there.
For what it's worth, Blizzard has my full support on this one. In my experience as their customer, they're exceedingly fair as long as you play by the rules and don't go around being a total dick (hacking, selling WoW gold, etc). KeSPA have behaved like total dicks towards Blizzard throughout their negotiations these last 3 or so years; Blizzard decides to play hardball and enforce its IP rights; KeSPA thinks they're above the law and don't need no stinking IP rights. Power to Blizzard.
Don't know enough about Gretech, so I have no strong opinion on them or their role.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Not imo, do you realize the money they're asking for is pretty much symbolic, and most likely less than what Kespa previously had to pay? But yeah easy to blame when you have no clue.
I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Not imo, do you realize the money they're asking for is pretty much symbolic, and most likely less than what Kespa previously had to pay? But yeah easy to blame when you have no clue.
I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
But to answer the first quote, no I am not convinced Gretech wants to kill BW. It seems to me that they want a slice of the pie and more control over when that pie is baked. Instead, Kespa offered them some crumbs and slammed the oven door in their face.
On October 14 2010 01:27 Emon_ wrote: Hopefully Korean court isn't bribed silly by Blizzard. Maybe they will side with KeSPA and the SPL can go on for a while more. KeSPA created the scene without any help from Blizzard. Bad move from Blizz/Gretech to come back and being tough on negotiations. If SC2 was worth anything it wouldn't have to be scared of a 2D RTS
It's not about killing BW, it's about having their IP respected. If Kespa refuses to respect that IP then Gretech and Blizzard will do what it takes to take Kespa down, even if it means the death of BW.
Blizzard and Gretech would love to get money from both BW and SC2, but they don't need BW anymore. Basically the life or death of BW is up to Kespa now.
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
Not imo, do you realize the money they're asking for is pretty much symbolic, and most likely less than what Kespa previously had to pay? But yeah easy to blame when you have no clue.
I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You know, thinking back. If Kespa had told Blizzard and cover their ass with this whole IP issue, what an amazing scene we will have right now. I lament the opportunity lost and hope 1+1 can still end with a 2 this time.
On October 14 2010 07:33 Devolved wrote: I didn't think Kespa previously had to pay anything, and the reason this whole thing started was because Kespa was charging pro-teams a licensing fee for a license that they did not fully have the rights to since it included the IP of Blizzard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
KeSPA IS the pro-teams, pretty much. You got it almost right; it started when KeSPA started charging the broadcasters a licensing fee for a license they did not have full rights to.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
I think KeSPA's argument is pretty much that the esports scene constitutes something greater than just the game. Other points they make are secondary to that overarching narrative.
They've conceded that they would be willing to pay a fee (which could be determined through some manner of arbitration, I guess) for the use of the game, and the argument quoted above seems most useful in explaining why KeSPA would not have to now pay that same fee as payment for the past ten years.
I see the fight over the IP rights going something like this:
Say you let some friends stay at your house one night. You let them make a camp in your backyard. They're pretty helpful at first, so you let them stay for a while and go on with your life.
After so many years you want to renovate your property so that you can invite a whole lot more people. You find that your "friend" has erected a castle in your backyard and now won't move. He says that since you let him stay all these years and he spent his own money to build the castle, that he owns that and all that property he's on, and he can make as much money as he wants on tours of that castle.
Well, you have the rest of your property, so you go on with your renovations, and it is a very nice castle after all. you don't like the fact that he's coerced an army of teenage serfs to do his dirty work though, and the fact that he won't let you, the owner, tour his castle.
You tell him, he can still stay, because he did such a good job making the castle, but he has to pay rent now, since he's making money, and he can't run his tours during the hours you run your own tours.
He refuses, saying that he made this property a popular hangout, and although he might pay you 10 bucks a month in rent, there's no way you're telling him when to run his tours. He says because you never said anything for 10 years, he owns the property his castle is on and he can pretty much run around naked all day if he wants to and you can't say ????.
Kespa has done the best job that can be found for creating and managing esports, even with all their failings. However, it's still Blizzard's property, and Kespa can't own or control it, no matter what they do. They should be thankful for all the years they've been pretty much autonomous. Now they refuse to just do a little bit of lipservice to the owners of what they sell.
If Gretech doesn't bring the hammer down now, the future of esports (which is SC2 no matter how many haters there are) is in jeopardy of being hijacked by Kespa as well. If they let it go as it is, Kespa can decide to make a SC2 league of their own without the consent of Blizzard or Gretech.
It shows from the successful negotiations with OGN, that Gretech is more than willing to let BW live on. They just want their own new product, which is SC2 to succeed. Whenever a network puts on a new show, they put it on in the prime time slot for that country/region. It would be retarded for Gretech to purchase the rights for SC2 and then say, "oh yeah, let's broadcast at 12am, that will get us a lot of ratings."
On October 14 2010 08:04 cerebralz wrote: I see the fight over the IP rights going something like this:
Say you let some friends stay at your house one night. You let them make a camp in your backyard. They're pretty helpful at first, so you let them stay for a while and go on with your life.
After so many years you want to renovate your property so that you can invite a whole lot more people. You find that your "friend" has erected a castle in your backyard and now won't move. He says that since you let him stay all these years and he spent his own money to build the castle, that he owns that and all that property he's on, and he can make as much money as he wants on tours of that castle.
Well, you have the rest of your property, so you go on with your renovations, and it is a very nice castle after all. you don't like the fact that he's coerced an army of teenage serfs to do his dirty work though, and the fact that he won't let you, the owner, tour his castle.
You tell him, he can still stay, because he did such a good job making the castle, but he has to pay rent now, since he's making money, and he can't run his tours during the hours you run your own tours.
He refuses, saying that he made this property a popular hangout, and although he might pay you 10 bucks a month in rent, there's no way you're telling him when to run his tours. He says because you never said anything for 10 years, he owns the property his castle is on and he can pretty much run around naked all day if he wants to and you can't say ????.
Kespa has done the best job that can be found for creating and managing esports, even with all their failings. However, it's still Blizzard's property, and Kespa can't own or control it, no matter what they do. They should be thankful for all the years they've been pretty much autonomous. Now they refuse to just do a little bit of lipservice to the owners of what they sell.
If Gretech doesn't bring the hammer down now, the future of esports (which is SC2 no matter how many haters there are) is in jeopardy of being hijacked by Kespa as well. If they let it go as it is, Kespa can decide to make a SC2 league of their own without the consent of Blizzard or Gretech.
It shows from the successful negotiations with OGN, that Gretech is more than willing to let BW live on. They just want their own new product, which is SC2 to succeed. Whenever a network puts on a new show, they put it on in the prime time slot for that country/region. It would be retarded for Gretech to purchase the rights for SC2 and then say, "oh yeah, let's broadcast at 12am, that will get us a lot of ratings."
Interestingly for your analogy, depending on the length of time you let your friend remain in your yard, he may have a claim to the property. So hilariously, your argument in fact makes precisely the opposite case that you intended. And while it's a little unclear to me how much this pertains to intellectual property rights, it seems that adverse possession is at least a fair point to bring up.
Remember too that KeSPA doesn't claim ownership of the game, they merely claim use of the game within the context of the esports scene.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
I think KeSPA's argument is pretty much that the esports scene constitutes something greater than just the game. Other points they make are secondary to that overarching narrative.
They've conceded that they would be willing to pay a fee (which could be determined through some manner of arbitration, I guess) for the use of the game, and the argument quoted above seems most useful in explaining why KeSPA would not have to now pay that same fee as payment for the past ten years.
The issue I have with this is that Blizzard/Gretech doesn't have to accept the money. It is their right to refuse KeSPA. If the precedent is set that KeSPA can just go ahead and ignore that right, then that opens up a whole can of worms with other games.
It would give KeSPA the right to use any game it wishes regardless of the IP holders.
Wasn't Kespa it self selling rights to stations like OGN for them to broadcast BW. Any ownership they have of BW is just illusion. Yet they still profited off it by making other people pay them. How can we be so quick to yell at gretech?
On October 14 2010 03:21 ffreakk wrote: ^ This guy (broz0rs) like many others seem to take the word "IP rights" to be an end-all-be-all kind of rule.. It is not so at all, and to what extent one can enforce their IP rights often needs ruling from higher authority (e.g. courts).
That said, i stand by the belief that Gretech is doing its best to kill off its competitor without gaining some bad reps.. Their nit-picking on MBC despite it having done nothing wrong is (imo) a clear indicator. Since Gretech is so stuck on the legal side of things, why is MBC who did exactly as they were told (stop all broadcasting after 31 August) suddenly become the bad guy? Is it not because they just needed some guy to pick on and not agree to terms of the negotiations?
Anyhow, one side is looking to preserve Brood War (whatever other people infer their ulterior motives to be), and the other is killing it off for some random RTS. Picking a side has never been easier
@ Intrique
Many people are "boycotting" BW not so much cos of hating on Gretech/Blizz but more so because it (pardon me) outright sucks, in my (our) opinion.. I enjoy myself way more watching/playing DotA or Civilization recently.
is this guy a troll? you are talking on a forum that was founded due to the epicness of the bw scene. you are basically stomping on the accomplishments of boxer, oov, and all the old greats who built up the scene with your ignorant remark.
*edit* nvm he mistyped bw with SC2 in last section.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
I think KeSPA's argument is pretty much that the esports scene constitutes something greater than just the game. Other points they make are secondary to that overarching narrative.
They've conceded that they would be willing to pay a fee (which could be determined through some manner of arbitration, I guess) for the use of the game, and the argument quoted above seems most useful in explaining why KeSPA would not have to now pay that same fee as payment for the past ten years.
The issue I have with this is that Blizzard/Gretech doesn't have to accept the money. It is their right to refuse KeSPA. If the precedent is set that KeSPA can just go ahead and ignore that right, then that opens up a whole can of worms with other games.
It would give KeSPA the right to use any game it wishes regardless of the IP holders.
That's a fair point. I'd argue, first and pragmatically, that establishing the ownership of the game developers over all uses of the game might be an ever worse issue. But secondly, this is another point where infinity and Wax's comments about Blizzard's lack of action towards the BW scene until the recent future might be used.
Surely in not actually addressing the BW scene in Korea for a substantial period of time, Blizzard de facto recognized it? They can surely not claim to have not known about it.
On October 14 2010 08:12 FindingPride wrote: Wasn't Kespa it self selling rights to stations like OGN for them to broadcast BW. Any ownership they have of BW is just illusion. Yet they still profited off it by making other people pay them. How can we be so quick to yell at gretech?
Another thing to mention is what FP says here; the emphasis for Blizzard's interest in the Korean scene was not really tied to Sc2, so much as the broadcast controversy where KeSPA twisted the arms of OGN and MBC in order to get them to pay KeSPA for the leagues. Blizzard then argues that KeSPA was selling a product it really didn't have ownership of. So the important precursor to KeSPA's current position is that KeSPA believes it has the right to control the whole BW scene, the game being only a part of that whole product. Eventually, it works out into a consistent position (it seems to me, at least) but it's not immediately apparent just what each side claims ownership of.
Sc2 then comes into this, as a highly likely explanation for Gretech's childish motives, and for Blizzard's recent power-play.
Interestingly for your analogy, depending on the length of time you let your friend remain in your yard, he may have a claim to the property.
This is surely what Kespa is hoping the courts decide. My point being contrary to those who think Gretech is evil and is trying to purposely kill the BW scene. It is clear to me that Kespa is the one who is intruding, and should be the one to back down if they have any honor at all. It may in COURT be decided that they actually DO have the rights, but because something is legal, doesn't mean that it is right and just.
Regarding the situation, KeSPA stated "It was not proper etiquette for Gretech to send us a final notice only days before our scheduled opening day. Many players and fans are awaiting the Proleague, and we cannot push back its start. We will continue to try and negotiate afterwards."
Wasn't the whole deal that Gretech wouldn't let KeSPA host their own Proleague? And that's what Gretech has been stressing this entire time but KeSPA went ahead and did it anyway? If so, how does Gretech not have proper etiquette? /confused
On October 14 2010 07:33 Zato-1 wrote: For what it's worth, Blizzard has my full support on this one. In my experience as their customer, they're exceedingly fair as long as you play by the rules and don't go around being a total dick (hacking, selling WoW gold, etc). KeSPA have behaved like total dicks towards Blizzard throughout their negotiations these last 3 or so years; Blizzard decides to play hardball and enforce its IP rights; KeSPA thinks they're above the law and don't need no stinking IP rights. Power to Blizzard.
Don't know enough about Gretech, so I have no strong opinion on them or their role.
Completely agree with this. As someone who has played virtually every Blizzard game on release or soon after they have never acted in a way other than "We make good games - enjoy". They respond to the community and I've always had complaints (eg. hacked WoW account) dealy with fairly and quickly.
On topic, I'm starting to think it doesn't matter what the result of this negotiation/courtcase/whatever's gonna happen now. Both sides are probably a bit in the wrong and nobody really knows the full extent of whats happening. Because of the uncertainty, teams are without b-teamers and no kids are picking up BW. Without Bteamers and new talent, the BW proscene will die. It think it is inevitable.
Whether SC2 can build its own legacy to rival BW is another matter entirely...
lol I can't believe that someone actually falls into KeSPA's media control, making Gretech look like an asshole. No.
When OGN/MG had their own leagues, they were in contact with Blizzard and Blizzard asked for nothing. Then KeSPA, who 'threatened' OGN/MG to pay them nearly $1.2million to broadcast 'proleague' on their program, offered Gretech with 0.3million to use SC1 copyright. Yes, Gretech couldve just accepted it regarding that Gretech didn't pay Blizzard a single penny, but I guess they are in revenge for what KeSPA has done to their league. (For those who didn't know, KeSPA told their teams not to compete in GOM's Classic League. Totally shutting down in the middle of a season)
On October 14 2010 00:02 _awake_ wrote: Gretech are the bad guys here. Is anyone still not convinced they want to kill BW?
They have the rights from BLIZZARD. If anyone's to blame, it's Blizzard. How can they not want the thing they are legally entitled to? It would be like if you won the lottery, and somehow you're the bad guy for filing for the money.
is it me or does this seem like activision is trying to force sc2 to be more successfull by killing bw and "forcing" kespa to go to sc2? they have the infrastructure and logistics to run proleague? why not with sc2 which will result in more $$$ for activison o.0
On October 14 2010 08:42 EezYBasH wrote: is it me or does this seem like activision is trying to force sc2 to be more successfull by killing bw and "forcing" kespa to go to sc2? they have the infrastructure and logistics to run proleague? why not with sc2 which will result in more $$$ for activison o.0
I don't really see it that way. KESPA announced that they would broadcast something that they had no right to broadcast. Regardless of what Blizzard is trying to do, KESPA is trying to force the negations and make Gretech look like the villain for taking what they have the rights to.
They keep saying this but what they hell is the final notice?
On October 14 2010 08:48 stangstang wrote: Everythings back to normal. YAY
Kespa charges OGN MBC to run star league Blizzard, the developer and distributor of starcraft makes 0$
That is what the people who are defending kespa want right?
Nope...HanbitSoft was the Korean distributor of Starcraft.
No one should post in these threads, they're god awful filled to the brim of fanboys of corporations (lmao) who don't know anything about the situation. We still don't know shit about the situation so there can only be speculation no its pretty much worthless as a whole.
On October 14 2010 08:48 stangstang wrote: Everythings back to normal. YAY
Kespa charges OGN MBC to run star league Blizzard, the developer and distributor of starcraft makes 0$
That is what the people who are defending kespa want right?
Nope...HanbitSoft was the Korean distributor of Starcraft.
No one should post in these threads, they're god awful filled to the brim of fanboys of corporations (lmao) who don't know anything about the situation. We still don't know shit about the situation so there can only be speculation no its pretty much worthless as a whole.
Agreed, Blizz fanboyism. Only a court ruling in favor of Kespa can shut them up now. But I have a feeling that they'll still find some way to bash Kespa.
On October 14 2010 08:42 EezYBasH wrote: is it me or does this seem like activision is trying to force sc2 to be more successfull by killing bw and "forcing" kespa to go to sc2? they have the infrastructure and logistics to run proleague? why not with sc2 which will result in more $$$ for activison o.0
If anything, they want to boost sales of SC2 by killing competition. Completely disregarding if it's as good for spectators as BW. Question is are they that confident there is enough dumb Koreans to make them interested enough in SC2 in this way, to buy it? It's not cheap over there too, afaik 80$? And is bad marketing they get by doing it, and court costs (if this will end in court) really worth it?
If people don't buy SC2 now then they probably will do it later. What I mean is any profit is virtual, it's more of the same money that would go to Blizz, just later, like the next year. And not more money coming from people who would not buy it at all otherwise. The game isn't going to just fade away like new Need for Speed or Call of Duty. And once it will start showing signs of fading, Blizz will release expansion pack, there are 2 in plans. And those aren't going to be released any time soon, I read about at least 18 months few days ago.
On October 14 2010 08:49 Womwomwom wrote: Final Notice of what?
They keep saying this but what they hell is the final notice?
On October 14 2010 08:48 stangstang wrote: Everythings back to normal. YAY
Kespa charges OGN MBC to run star league Blizzard, the developer and distributor of starcraft makes 0$
That is what the people who are defending kespa want right?
Nope...HanbitSoft was the Korean distributor of Starcraft.
No one should post in these threads, they're god awful filled to the brim of fanboys of corporations (lmao) who don't know anything about the situation. We still don't know shit about the situation so there can only be speculation no its pretty much worthless as a whole.
Agreed, Blizz fanboyism. Only a court ruling in favor of Kespa can shut them up now. But I have a feeling that they'll still find some way to bash Kespa.
Kespa has been terrible and slowly heading toward killing BW for 3 years unfortunately. all sc2 did was give people a lifeboat before the ship sank because of a steering error by the people at the helm.Sound Familiar?
This was going to happen, unfortunately both sides want control of the starcraft scene in korea. and neither is willing to put up with the other for their own reasons, Kespa's greed and pride. Gretech's entitlement and pride.
The hate on sc2 should stop though. because people hating on sc2 is only causing sc2 fans who don't know/enjoy the BW scene to hate the BW scene in return. and that kind of divide in a community about all starcraft e sports is bad.
On October 14 2010 08:49 Womwomwom wrote: Final Notice of what?
They keep saying this but what they hell is the final notice?
On October 14 2010 08:48 stangstang wrote: Everythings back to normal. YAY
Kespa charges OGN MBC to run star league Blizzard, the developer and distributor of starcraft makes 0$
That is what the people who are defending kespa want right?
Nope...HanbitSoft was the Korean distributor of Starcraft.
No one should post in these threads, they're god awful filled to the brim of fanboys of corporations (lmao) who don't know anything about the situation. We still don't know shit about the situation so there can only be speculation no its pretty much worthless as a whole.
Agreed, Blizz fanboyism. Only a court ruling in favor of Kespa can shut them up now. But I have a feeling that they'll still find some way to bash Kespa.
No both sides don't know shit all. Between the stuff the KT coach has said, the official "press releases", and Gretech not accepting Kespa's fairly generous offer who the bloody knows what has actually happened because they've fucked around and flailed around in the water for so long that the water is now completely brown.
It seems clear to me that Gretech is more than FINE with BW continuing on, but they don't want it to compete for their own timeslot for the GSL. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask - they want the opportunity for BOTH GAMES to have the SAME FANS, rather than splitting the fan base between the two. If the timeslot issue was their primary demand, they're not "evil bad guys" they're just a corporation using their own rights to act on their own interests. Welcome to capitalism, this is how it works.
Edit: Any confirmation on the timeslot issue being in the negotiations? It makes sense, but don't have a source.
Honestly, stop trying to paint either side as a saint or demon, and let's bring a lot more FACTS to the table please?
On October 14 2010 08:49 Womwomwom wrote: Final Notice of what?
They keep saying this but what they hell is the final notice?
On October 14 2010 08:48 stangstang wrote: Everythings back to normal. YAY
Kespa charges OGN MBC to run star league Blizzard, the developer and distributor of starcraft makes 0$
That is what the people who are defending kespa want right?
Nope...HanbitSoft was the Korean distributor of Starcraft.
No one should post in these threads, they're god awful filled to the brim of fanboys of corporations (lmao) who don't know anything about the situation. We still don't know shit about the situation so there can only be speculation no its pretty much worthless as a whole.
Agreed, Blizz fanboyism. Only a court ruling in favor of Kespa can shut them up now. But I have a feeling that they'll still find some way to bash Kespa.
Yep, I'm a blizzard fanboy. I admit it. What can I say? I just love the amazing games they make. I'm a sucker for good games. my bad.
Go on saying Blizzard is trying to kill the game they created. Kespa is charging OGN and MBC for the rights to broadcast starcraft when they don't even have the rights. Surely the courts will rule in favor of kespa.
well in a way i'll be glad if they bring it to court ... we have been following this stupid negotiation for so long and chances that it's not ending well anyway ... might as well get it over with asap ...
i want kespa to win not because i support what they are doing, but so that i can still watch BW again ... no kespa = no more BW ...
Kespa: If we just start pro-league, there will be too many people watching that they can't shut us down without bad publicity and that bad publicity will take them out too! YAY!!
Gretech: We have supporting documents that gives us exclusive broadcasting rights! We can't lose in court!
Blizzard: Why are people still bringing us to this discussion? I thought we settled our IP right issue by giving exclusive rights to Gretech who are willing to 'respect' our IP and follow our direction.
On October 14 2010 09:20 nayumi wrote: well in a way i'll be glad if they bring it to court ... we have been following this stupid negotiation for so long and chances that it's not ending well anyway ... might as well get it over with asap ...
i want kespa to win not because i support what they are doing, but so that i can still watch BW again ... no kespa = no more BW ...
well kespa won't go away unless they choose to if the courts rule against them. Gretech will just demand their rights be recognised, and kespa chooses to kill BW or acknowledge Gretechs rights allowing BW to continue.
Has everyone forgot how KeSPA single-handedly prevented Gretech from having any more BW tournies after season 3? Why wouldn't Gretech want to shut KeSPA down?
It would be nice if BW and SC2 could co-exist, but if KeSPA is going to compete against Gretech (same time slots, players can only be in one tourney, etc) then I can understand their position.
On October 14 2010 09:27 Maul wrote: Has everyone forgot how KeSPA single-handedly prevented Gretech from having any more BW tournies after season 3? Why wouldn't Gretech want to shut KeSPA down?
It would be nice if BW and SC2 could co-exist, but if KeSPA is going to compete against Gretech (same time slots, players can only be in one tourney, etc) then I can understand their position.
Kespa strapped themselves with a bad publicity bomb. They are betting on using the bad publicity and public upset of a canceled proleague as deterrence against Gretech's lawsuit.
Gretech should not fall into Kespa's trap by demanding a cease and desist but instead ask for compensation like all revenue generated from the new proleague season but that would need the proleague to complete.
Its highly unlikely Kespa will survive another year. Gretech should just starve Kespa instead of going all-in.
On October 14 2010 09:13 sylverfyre wrote: It seems clear to me that Gretech is more than FINE with BW continuing on, but they don't want it to compete for their own timeslot for the GSL. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask - they want the opportunity for BOTH GAMES to have the SAME FANS, rather than splitting the fan base between the two. If the timeslot issue was their primary demand, they're not "evil bad guys" they're just a corporation using their own rights to act on their own interests. Welcome to capitalism, this is how it works.
Edit: Any confirmation on the timeslot issue being in the negotiations? It makes sense, but don't have a source.
Honestly, stop trying to paint either side as a saint or demon, and let's bring a lot more FACTS to the table please?
Except BW was there first. Capitalism would be GSL and BW competing for the same fans and the superior game coming out on top, or there being enough fans to support both simultaneously.
Oh hey did I mention that I want to use the name sylverfyre now? It's mine now. You can use it, just not on any forums I frequent.
On October 14 2010 09:13 sylverfyre wrote: It seems clear to me that Gretech is more than FINE with BW continuing on, but they don't want it to compete for their own timeslot for the GSL. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask - they want the opportunity for BOTH GAMES to have the SAME FANS, rather than splitting the fan base between the two. If the timeslot issue was their primary demand, they're not "evil bad guys" they're just a corporation using their own rights to act on their own interests. Welcome to capitalism, this is how it works.
Edit: Any confirmation on the timeslot issue being in the negotiations? It makes sense, but don't have a source.
Honestly, stop trying to paint either side as a saint or demon, and let's bring a lot more FACTS to the table please?
Except BW was there first. Capitalism would be GSL and BW competing for the same fans and the superior game coming out on top, or there being enough fans to support both simultaneously.
Oh hey did I mention that I want to use the name sylverfyre now? It's mine now. You can use it, just not on any forums I frequent.
Sounds kinda dumb huh.
That makes 0 sense when Blizzard owns the IP rights to both games. They also licensed those rights to Gretech.
KeSPA owns the teams and players. If they want to have those teams and players play another game and charge, they are well within their rights to do so as long as that game company agrees.
Gretech's requirements may be the cause of Kespa's action but two wrongs don't make a right. Legally, Kespa is in the wrong now. We're just waiting to see if Gretech is also wrong.
On October 14 2010 03:26 infinity2k9 wrote: The court case will be interesting. I think the fact Blizzard unofficially authorized the scene for years and benefited from its publicity, only to coincidentally change their minds right near the SC2 announcement will be a major point in court.
A very good point, i think that will be brought up in court too.
yeah, i guess it will...
if kespa intends on commiting perjury lol
Even by Blizzard's account, there were no actual face to face negotiations until this year.
Isn't all Gretech wanted to be able to run the GSL with promotion from the game channels and no scheduling overlaps with Proleague, MSL and OSL? They certainly weren't asking for money in the later stages?
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
you've been watching too much of SuperDanielMan's blogs. no one says you can't have pro teams and run them, hell look at oGs/Liquid pairing, and NEX. they run just fine, and don't require KeSPA and their bureaucracy
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
I think that Kespa really needs to get there act together. Right now Gretech holds all the chips. Kespa has no "right" to broadcast the games. Well its true that KeSPA has had a big impact on E-Sports and BW. But they have not right to broadcast with out Blizzards permission. That is still no excuse for acting the way they are.
Business is Business. KeSPA needs to understand that and stop acting like they have some mandate to broadcast games. I mean OGN has got there new contract no problem
This is...this is... just like that one time. You know when Blizzard stopped negotiating with KeSPA? It happened again. This time they knew the deadline, but it wasn't 3 years...
Take what you can get, what the hell. I want BW now, I don't care if Kespa cant buy the IP rights or whatever, sign the freakin contract!
It's looking downhill for BW. It will be too awkward seeing a forced league happen.
And I don't believe pro league is necessary for BW to live. I think the OSL is the most popular out of the three. Please continue the OSL.
On October 14 2010 10:59 Lokian wrote: I don't believe pro league is necessary for BW to live. I think the OSL is the most popular out of the three. Please continue the OSL.
Proleague is necessary to sustain the pro teams, without which the OSL players lack a stable base of support.
On October 14 2010 10:59 Lokian wrote: This is...this is... just like that one time. You know when Blizzard stopped negotiating with KeSPA? It happened again. This time they knew the deadline, but it wasn't 3 years...
Take what you can get, what the hell. I want BW now, I don't care if Kespa cant buy the IP rights or whatever, sign the freakin contract!
It's looking downhill for BW. It will be too awkward seeing a forced league happen.
And I don't believe pro league is necessary for BW to live. I think the OSL is the most popular out of the three. Please continue the OSL.
proleague is absolutely necessary for BW to live...Among the 3 proleague is the biggest hit by far.
Why are Shinhan continuing to sponsor a competition for which intellectual property rights have not been acquired. Shinhan are an international investment bank and this is not a good look for them in my opinion.
On October 14 2010 10:59 Lokian wrote:And I don't believe pro league is necessary for BW to live. I think the OSL is the most popular out of the three. Please continue the OSL.
Proleague is by far the most important. Not only is it a constant stream of games, but it also allows new players to come about and the teams to be able to pay salaries. Also, the Proleague finals crush the leagues in importance. I'd rather the other 2 leagues die than lose PL.
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL
your obscure posts are so aggravating rek! be nice and type more D:
It's Dan your talking about, odds of that happening are slim to none. It's just his style. I just love how outlandish most comments are. It's good entertainment nonetheless.
On October 14 2010 09:21 FishForThought wrote: Quick summary of the 3 companies' plan:
Kespa: If we just start pro-league, there will be too many people watching that they can't shut us down without bad publicity and that bad publicity will take them out too! YAY!!
Gretech: We have supporting documents that gives us exclusive broadcasting rights! We can't lose in court!
Blizzard: Why are people still bringing us to this discussion? I thought we settled our IP right issue by giving exclusive rights to Gretech who are willing to 'respect' our IP and follow our direction.
Looks about right.
There's multiple players trying to protect their interests. Trying to find who is "teh evilz" is pretty immature IMO.
KeSPA knows full well what announcing proleague entailed, they're mocking Gretech's license rights. Gretech can't keep this out of court when KeSPA keeps showing that they have no intention of respecting those rights.
On the other hand, if KeSPA keeps being bullied by Gretech and their rights, they're fully dependent on Gretech's good will. Mocking the rights and announcing proleague puts Gretech back in a tough spot in terms of public opinion.
From what I understand, KeSPA just got some negotiation leverage with this but Gretech will have none of it.
On October 14 2010 11:19 keylow wrote: Why are Shinhan continuing to sponsor a competition for which intellectual property rights have not been acquired. Shinhan are an international investment bank and this is not a good look for them in my opinion.
Because no one has yet proven blizzard, the makers of starcraft, own the rights to VIDEOS of kespa's teams playing matches of starcraft in a pro league that they created. Rights to the ip of the game doesn't automatically = rights to videos of pro gamers in a pro league playing. This is where the court case will come in.
Theres plenty of room for argument here in the way of derivative goods. Alot of the pro blizzard posters here are under the assumption its already a proven fact. The guy who created basketball certainly didn't have a right to tell the NBA what to do if he had no hand in creating the NBA. He could've asked for money I guess but as we know Kespa already offered money which was refused.
Gretech refuses to let Kespa broadcast at times that would get in the way of the GSL
also as long as each copy of scbw was bought legit, the people who bought it can play the game run tournaments on it create content on it however they want? that's why im siding with KESPA.
im sure each copy of scbw was bought legit whos to say blizzard gets so much control? they BOUGHT the game created the tournaments, and put up the prize money and the players created the content. GO KESPA. companies are taken IP to extremes.
On October 14 2010 11:19 keylow wrote: Why are Shinhan continuing to sponsor a competition for which intellectual property rights have not been acquired. Shinhan are an international investment bank and this is not a good look for them in my opinion.
Because no one has yet proven blizzard, the makers of starcraft, own the rights to VIDEOS of kespa's teams playing matches of starcraft in a pro league that they created. Rights to the ip of the game doesn't automatically = rights to videos of pro gamers in a pro league playing. This is where the court case will come in.
Theres plenty of room for argument here in the way of derivative goods. Alot of the pro blizzard posters here are under the assumption its already a proven fact. The guy who created basketball certainly didn't have a right to tell the NBA what to do if he had no hand in creating the NBA. He could've asked for money I guess but as we know Kespa already offered money which was refused.
Gretech refuses to let Kespa broadcast at times that would get in the way of the GSL
Difference is Starcraft is much more complicated than the game of Basketball, which basically boils down to putting a spherical object through a circular one. When you also think about it, that basic concept has been around for ages.
You can find many variations of Basketball. Just compare international to NBA as an example.
On the other hand, there is only 1 thing in the entire world that can be called SC:BW and Blizzard controls all the code, art, and sound that makes it SC:BW. If KeSPA wants to hack that code and make changes of their own, that's a whole separate legal issue that they have 0 chance of ever winning.
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL
your obscure posts are so aggravating rek! be nice and type more D:
lol you don't have to be rekrul to know that esports still never really evolved past the ramen eating, apartment cramming prize hunting days. the only players with stable living and salaries are the ones that are successful in the prize hunting
As much as I love BW, it really should be killed and we should all move on to Sc2. In any case KESPA is being bullshit here! Send you a final notice? They negotiated with you for months and months and you alyways rejected their proposal and say "we can negotiate later" what sort of logic is that?
On October 14 2010 12:10 G3nXsiS wrote: As much as I love BW, it really should be killed and we should all move on to Sc2. In any case KESPA is being bullshit here! Send you a final notice? They negotiated with you for months and months and you alyways rejected their proposal and say "we can negotiate later" what sort of logic is that?
Heretic Seriously, wtf
Also, it's the sort of logic you use when the proposal and negotiations aren't going your way. Kinda like if my proposal was that you give me your life savings, you probably wouldn't agree no matter how many months I negotiated..
I don't see the logic in this... two outcomes are apparent to me:
Gretech gets their way and take legal action against KeSPA and no more BW Courts side with KeSPA and BW runs for a bit before being completely overrun by SC2. Therefore, no more BW.
Right now I think Immanuel Kant is rolling over in his grave :\
On October 14 2010 12:42 FetusFondler wrote: I don't see the logic in this... two outcomes are apparent to me:
Gretech gets their way and take legal action against KeSPA and no more BW Courts side with KeSPA and BW runs for a bit before being completely overrun by SC2. Therefore, no more BW.
Right now I think Immanuel Kant is rolling over in his grave :\
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
This is absolutely pointless. Blizzard is going to lose this in Korea, and OSL/MSL/PL will continue until BW actually dies, all of this is only going to prolongate it's existence and popularity, as well as fuel further discontent with Blizzard in general, damage the reputation of StarCraft II and everything Blizzard has yet to bring on Korean market.
Why would anybody in their right mind attempt to destroy an absolutely perfect, established gaming scene featuring a perfectly balanced beloved game, multiple tournaments and leagues, a 100 top class players and millions of fans.
All of that can be exchanged at this very moment for an almost non-existent scene featuring a few popular players (Boxer, Nada, July) who are yet to show themselves on a big screen, a lot of StarCraft:BW B-teamers and those who failed to qualify as B-teamers, wrapped around a 'raw' game that requires balance patches and general improvements. Not to forget that the whole scene is basically a monthly 64-player tournament at this point.
On October 14 2010 12:01 zimz wrote: also as long as each copy of scbw was bought legit, the people who bought it can play the game run tournaments on it create content on it however they want?
That's not true. You never really buy a game but a license to an intellectual property that can be used in x way, defined by the IP holder. That's why Blizzard has the right to ban you for cheating, hacking, etc.
I have very big doubts that Blizzard/gretech could lose this trial. Korea would basically have to rule that Blizzard is no longer the IP holder to Starcraft and is therefore not allowed to sell licenses. If you don't protect your IP you CAN lose it but blizzard has shown to protect their IP in many other ways before so I doubt the court will be convinced to think that way by KeSPA.
On October 14 2010 11:19 keylow wrote: Why are Shinhan continuing to sponsor a competition for which intellectual property rights have not been acquired. Shinhan are an international investment bank and this is not a good look for them in my opinion.
Because no one has yet proven blizzard, the makers of starcraft, own the rights to VIDEOS
There is ample precedent to believe this. You generally can't broadcast someone else's intellectual property without their permission. That goes for Square-Enix protecting their CGI from being distributed to the Nobel Foundation detaining the broadcasting right to events relating to their IP, the Nobel Prize.
I really don't know if the fact that starcraft is a multiplayer game and that KeSPA formed a league is enough to change things.
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL
your obscure posts are so aggravating rek! be nice and type more D:
lol you don't have to be rekrul to know that esports still never really evolved past the ramen eating, apartment cramming prize hunting days. the only players with stable living and salaries are the ones that are successful in the prize hunting
It was definitely a lot closer to a "stable living and salary" situation that it would've been without the proteams though. It clearly wasn't there yet, and perhaps not even near to being there. But that dream isn't going to happen without the current set-up to jump off from.
On October 14 2010 08:49 Womwomwom wrote: Final Notice of what?
They keep saying this but what they hell is the final notice?
On October 14 2010 08:48 stangstang wrote: Everythings back to normal. YAY
Kespa charges OGN MBC to run star league Blizzard, the developer and distributor of starcraft makes 0$
That is what the people who are defending kespa want right?
Nope...HanbitSoft was the Korean distributor of Starcraft.
No one should post in these threads, they're god awful filled to the brim of fanboys of corporations (lmao) who don't know anything about the situation. We still don't know shit about the situation so there can only be speculation no its pretty much worthless as a whole.
Agreed, Blizz fanboyism. Only a court ruling in favor of Kespa can shut them up now. But I have a feeling that they'll still find some way to bash Kespa.
Yep, I'm a blizzard fanboy. I admit it. What can I say? I just love the amazing games they make. I'm a sucker for good games. my bad.
Go on saying Blizzard is trying to kill the game they created. Kespa is charging OGN and MBC for the rights to broadcast starcraft when they don't even have the rights. Surely the courts will rule in favor of kespa.
KeSPA doesn't say they control the game, KeSPA says they control the scene. With nitwit posts like this peppering every page, it's no wonder people are confused.
On October 14 2010 09:13 sylverfyre wrote: It seems clear to me that Gretech is more than FINE with BW continuing on, but they don't want it to compete for their own timeslot for the GSL. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask - they want the opportunity for BOTH GAMES to have the SAME FANS, rather than splitting the fan base between the two. If the timeslot issue was their primary demand, they're not "evil bad guys" they're just a corporation using their own rights to act on their own interests. Welcome to capitalism, this is how it works.
Edit: Any confirmation on the timeslot issue being in the negotiations? It makes sense, but don't have a source.
Honestly, stop trying to paint either side as a saint or demon, and let's bring a lot more FACTS to the table please?
If you haven't noticed, before this all began, BW had all the players, pedigree, and infrastructure that Sc2 needed. And you're telling me that Gretech is fine with BW continuing as is. Good one.
On October 14 2010 13:39 Fyodor wrote: There is ample precedent to believe this. You generally can't broadcast someone else's intellectual property without their permission. That goes for Square-Enix protecting their CGI from being distributed to the Nobel Foundation detaining the broadcasting right to events relating to their IP, the Nobel Prize.
I really don't know if the fact that starcraft is a multiplayer game and that KeSPA formed a league is enough to change things.
So under your logic, Day[9], HDH and Husky should pay royalties to Blizzard?
You could make the case that Day[9]'s cast is protected under fair use since he is not for-profit, but HDH and Husky create tournaments and events with money involved, most likely for profit.
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL
your obscure posts are so aggravating rek! be nice and type more D:
lol you don't have to be rekrul to know that esports still never really evolved past the ramen eating, apartment cramming prize hunting days. the only players with stable living and salaries are the ones that are successful in the prize hunting
do you really want to compare early progamer conditions with current conditions and say it hasn't changed? like, really? what are you basing that on lol
The "final notice only days before our scheduled opening day" excuse is complete bullcrap. Gretech has been trying to negotiate with Kespa for months. The Kespa execs know their BW leagues will eventually fade out of popularity if they stop pirating IP rights, so they're going to play the court system for one last run at full control. They can keep running tournaments until they get legally shut down. Dastardly, sneaky business as usual.
On October 14 2010 09:21 FishForThought wrote: Quick summary of the 3 companies' plan:
Kespa: If we just start pro-league, there will be too many people watching that they can't shut us down without bad publicity and that bad publicity will take them out too! YAY!!
Gretech: We have supporting documents that gives us exclusive broadcasting rights! We can't lose in court!
Blizzard: Why are people still bringing us to this discussion? I thought we settled our IP right issue by giving exclusive rights to Gretech who are willing to 'respect' our IP and follow our direction.
Looks about right.
There's multiple players trying to protect their interests. Trying to find who is "teh evilz" is pretty immature IMO.
KeSPA knows full well what announcing proleague entailed, they're mocking Gretech's license rights. Gretech can't keep this out of court when KeSPA keeps showing that they have no intention of respecting those rights.
On the other hand, if KeSPA keeps being bullied by Gretech and their rights, they're fully dependent on Gretech's good will. Mocking the rights and announcing proleague puts Gretech back in a tough spot in terms of public opinion.
From what I understand, KeSPA just got some negotiation leverage with this but Gretech will have none of it.
Yep this is how I look at it aswell.
I just wonder if Blizzard/Activision will get involved in the law suit or if they leave that up to Gretech. Either way I cant see Kespa winning this, just really cant...
On October 14 2010 13:39 Fyodor wrote: There is ample precedent to believe this. You generally can't broadcast someone else's intellectual property without their permission. That goes for Square-Enix protecting their CGI from being distributed to the Nobel Foundation detaining the broadcasting right to events relating to their IP, the Nobel Prize.
I really don't know if the fact that starcraft is a multiplayer game and that KeSPA formed a league is enough to change things.
So under your logic, Day[9], HDH and Husky should pay royalties to Blizzard?
You could make the case that Day[9]'s cast is protected under fair use since he is not for-profit, but HDH and Husky create tournaments and events with money involved, most likely for profit.
What Fyodor wrote is correct.
Generally speaking, you are not permitted to publish videos who's content belong to others, without their permission. The IP owner of the starcraft universe is Blizzard so blizzard has the right to enforce their rights on videos showing gameplay footages of starcraft. So yes, if Blizzard wanted do something about it, it could easily shut these channels down by filing copyright infringement notices under DMCA.
Having the right to assert their IPs means that they reserve the right to do it. It doesn't necessarily mean that they apply it in every single instance.
My understanding is that fair-use is a possible defense to copyright infringement in court and it only covers 'limited' use of copyrighted materials, e.g. quotes, snapshots etc which are considered as derivative work. I don't think it covers extensive coverage of any kind.
On October 14 2010 10:05 Kazeyonoma wrote: and by "provide" the players you mean they have a monopoly over the progamer licenses, and can abuse it to control the entire e-sports scene right?
At least they're taking E-sports in a good direction with stable living and salary for every player. Blizzard wants everyone to revert back to the ramen eating, apartment cramming, prize hunting days.
Progamer sweatshops what?
jobless or "sweatshop"?
Totally agree with zenMaster here. Kespa and their pro is the first true pro league for e sports. The rest of it are just people devoted to trying to win the prizes and living off it.
Their rigid training makes them the best in the world. Although we in the west don't agree with it theres no denying that their discipline is what makes them leagues beyond us.
On October 14 2010 13:39 Fyodor wrote: There is ample precedent to believe this. You generally can't broadcast someone else's intellectual property without their permission. That goes for Square-Enix protecting their CGI from being distributed to the Nobel Foundation detaining the broadcasting right to events relating to their IP, the Nobel Prize.
I really don't know if the fact that starcraft is a multiplayer game and that KeSPA formed a league is enough to change things.
So under your logic, Day[9], HDH and Husky should pay royalties to Blizzard?
You could make the case that Day[9]'s cast is protected under fair use since he is not for-profit, but HDH and Husky create tournaments and events with money involved, most likely for profit.
What Fyodor wrote is correct.
Generally speaking, you are not permitted to publish videos who's content belong to others, without their permission. The IP owner of the starcraft universe is Blizzard so blizzard has the right to enforce their rights on videos showing gameplay footages of starcraft. So yes, if Blizzard wanted do something about it, it could easily shut these channels down by filing copyright infringement notices under DMCA.
Having the right to assert their IPs means that they reserve the right to do it. It doesn't necessarily mean that they apply it in every single instance.
My understanding is that fair-use is a possible defense to copyright infringement in court and it only covers 'limited' use of copyrighted materials, e.g. quotes, snapshots etc which are considered as derivative work. I don't think it covers extensive coverage of any kind.
IAre you sure that is the way international copyright infringement is dealt with in Korea?
Kespa will win, not because they are right, but because the korean gov will side with them in a legal battle. Just like in the auto industry where US companies got shaft, gom/blizzard will loss the legal battle.
On October 14 2010 15:31 mkfk1 wrote: Kespa will win, not because they are right, but because the korean gov will side with them in a legal battle. Just like in the auto industry where US companies got shaft, gom/blizzard will loss the legal battle.
Sad.
Wouldn't that mean that proleague would happen? Why is that sad?
They want BW to die and SC2 to replace it. But this is not the way. Without solid organization like KeSPA SC2 will be amateur level. Even old pros that switch to it wont be pros. Kespa are not perfect. but we must give them credit for everything they did in the past 10 years. Blizzard/Greetech are way too greedy... Why now ? Where was their claims and so before 10 years ? KESPA started from scratch to make the BW great game and turn it into real sport, and now blizzard/greetech want to take it over.
On October 14 2010 15:31 mkfk1 wrote: Kespa will win, not because they are right, but because the korean gov will side with them in a legal battle. Just like in the auto industry where US companies got shaft, gom/blizzard will loss the legal battle.
Sad.
Wouldn't that mean that proleague would happen? Why is that sad?
I dont really regard Kespa to be a good thing to e sport. I regard them as a double edge sword.
On 1 end they did promote korean e sport scene. But on the other hand, they practice of monopoly over all pro gamers, self regulation, and corruption is well known. Kespa also fail to promote e sport to an international audience.
I would rather preferred an international committee endorse by blizzard over kespa.
There is no reason why e sports cant be regulated and maintain like the FIFA world cup or the Olympic.
More importantly, I dont like how kespa is now doing something that is consider illegal. If this case were to happened in the US, or EU, or Australia, I am damn sure kespa would have lost.
On October 14 2010 13:39 Fyodor wrote: There is ample precedent to believe this. You generally can't broadcast someone else's intellectual property without their permission. That goes for Square-Enix protecting their CGI from being distributed to the Nobel Foundation detaining the broadcasting right to events relating to their IP, the Nobel Prize.
I really don't know if the fact that starcraft is a multiplayer game and that KeSPA formed a league is enough to change things.
So under your logic, Day[9], HDH and Husky should pay royalties to Blizzard?
You could make the case that Day[9]'s cast is protected under fair use since he is not for-profit, but HDH and Husky create tournaments and events with money involved, most likely for profit.
Well, Day9, HDH / husky needed blizz approval to run sc2 tournaments. I'm assuming they got them. Having gotten approval, it's pretty much the same as having the licence to do so. Thus royalties are not needed unless blizz demands them in exchange for tournament approval.
i think ultimately that this will not amek too much difference either way. BW is dying, it has been since SC2 was announced...... not because its a bad game or anything, simply because its now term limited.
Most young gamers will be playing SC2 over BW, that means they will end up as SC2 pro gamers instead of BW. For BW to survive it will need new players every few years or else eventually there will only be like 4 guys in the proleague, simple fact is the player who are playing it now will eventually retire and likely no one will be there to replace them. This would be the case whether Blizz interferred or not.
The only difference is that Kespa and gretech are essentially speeding up the process. Even if kespa win the court case, how long do you expect BW to stay alive? I don't wanna see any esport die, but it is the natural way of things. BW won't even run on vista/win 7 (atlast not for me lol) and how many kids do you know today who would either be allowed or even want to have an xp install on their comp just to play one very old (even tho its awesome) game?
Blizz will never release the source code for BW so it can be patched to work with win7, and eventually the money that will be available to SC2 pros will make BW pale in comparison. Already 85k up for grab every month from GSL, we will likely see a team league too (there is one running atm on GOM) as well as other events and leagues that will pop up.
Eventually sc2 will die aswell, when blizz make sc3 or wc4 or even a completely new rts.... perhaps it won't even be a blizzard game? This is the way of things in the computer world.... its not like normal sports where the sport itself can evolve to stay relevant. You are stuck with the game as it was created, only ever changed by patching, with the relentless march of technology constantly making whats cutting edge today, outdated tomorrow.
personally I think gretech should just back off and let kespa do it thing, let BW die with dignity, in its own time.
I see those who are clamoring to keep BW relevant the same as people who oppose goal line cameras and TV refs in soccer...... afraid of change. So what if BW is a better game with more difficult game play, you could argue that soccer was once more skillful than it is now..... in the 50's they played with a ball that was about 5 times heavier than what they play with now, and it wasn't aerodynamic and balanced properly and all the technology that goes into making a soccer ball these days, does this really make 50's soccer better than modern soccer? No..... it means the game has evolved to make it easier and thus more exciting and accessible.
If people really want esports to succeed on a global stage, they need to be accessible to everyone. Anyone can go play baseball, soccer, field hockey, volleyball with minimal effort just on a nearby field.... that is the state gaming needs to reach, where anyone can join in, but the best are revered and cheered for their skill
I am a gretech employee so i wont give any opinion over this. I just dont understand there are some people who believe kespa has made any contribution to esports.
On October 14 2010 17:51 JunkkaGom wrote: I am a gretech employee so i wont give any opinion over this. I just dont understand there are some people who believe kespa has made any contribution to esports.
Would be nice to have some official Gretech input on this topic. In any case, I guess the drama will be peaking soonish. Personally speaking I am so annoyed with Kespa right now, that I actually hope that they get their ass handed in court.
Yeah, Gretech has the power and the one who decides how things work. But they are morally not right
KESPA did popularize starcraft in Korea. Its their job, they spent many years working on it. And now Gretech trying to use this popularity of starcraft to gain more money. They are not different than other giant money-hungry corporations.
If KESPA didn't do their job then starcraft wouldn't be succesful. SC and SC2 even wouldn't make half of money they made until now. Community or interested people would be much fewer if KESPA didn't act. Its actually Gretech who is stealing KESPA's job.
You ask why people think that Kespa has made any contribution to esports? Heres my perspective:
Other than the game that is played (which is merely a tool, mind), Kespa is responsible for everything there is in E-Sport today: televised Leagues, stable-salaried proteams, arena for top players (Leagues) + training ground for young aspirants (training houses, B-teams), celebrity gamers.. Take a look: + Show Spoiler +
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
It is easy to see why people like me want to have them around, because we clearly see how much they have done, and it matters to us.. They may have screwed up here and there, but from my Point of View, their accomplishments far outshine their shortcomings.
Now on the other hand, looking at what Gretech has done.. Not much, aint it? :/ And now its trying to kill off all said accomplishment, making thousands of people jobless because of a little profit, or a little pride.. Is it still hard to understand our sentiments?
On October 14 2010 17:51 JunkkaGom wrote: I am a gretech employee so i wont give any opinion over this. I just dont understand there are some people who believe kespa has made any contribution to esports.
So you're saying Kespa has made no contribution at all to esports?
Gretech has an obvious slam dunk here if they really wanted to push it, but kespa is using against them the very thing you are talking about, that ANY changes made would only hurt the pro scene. Is this true? We have no idea unless facts are revealed from either side, anything else is just speculation.
I would highly doubt that even in korea kespa would be able to win, because the abuse is obvious to anyone... and korea wont risk too much their relationship with the USA over this. Activision Blizzard isn't just any company afterall.There is zero wiggle room at all for Kespa, beyond that gretech doesn't want to alienate the BW scene. If that factor was taken out this would already be settled in or out of court long ago
On October 14 2010 19:04 Varth wrote: Gretech has an obvious slam dunk here if they really wanted to push it, but kespa is using against them the very thing you are talking about, that ANY changes made would only hurt the pro scene. Is this true? We have no idea unless facts are revealed from either side, anything else is just speculation.
I would highly doubt that even in korea kespa would be able to win, because the abuse is obvious to anyone... and korea wont risk too much their relationship with the USA over this. Activision Blizzard isn't just any company afterall.There is zero wiggle room at all for Kespa, beyond that gretech doesn't want to alienate the BW scene. If that factor was taken out this would already be settled in or out of court long ago
American auto industry fail to get into the korean market. The american government had done nothing about it. Meanwhile the korean car makers are gaining market in the american market.
What makes you think the american government would do more for an american gaming company?
At the highest level, american national interest such as their pacific policy are more important than free trade and free access into korea e sport industry.
If this goes to court, I am pretty sure Kespa will find a way to win this. Hell, it may even open a loop hole for sc2 and future games that so that IP right will no longer be respected.
On October 14 2010 19:04 Varth wrote: Gretech has an obvious slam dunk here if they really wanted to push it, but kespa is using against them the very thing you are talking about, that ANY changes made would only hurt the pro scene. Is this true? We have no idea unless facts are revealed from either side, anything else is just speculation.
I would highly doubt that even in korea kespa would be able to win, because the abuse is obvious to anyone... and korea wont risk too much their relationship with the USA over this. Activision Blizzard isn't just any company afterall. There is zero wiggle room at all for Kespa, beyond that gretech doesn't want to alienate the BW scene. If that factor was taken out this would already be settled in or out of court long ago
What is there to "risk"? You think the US government would stick their neck out for Activision-Blizzard. Definitely not. And the Korean government knows that.
And btw, Activision-Blizzard is far less important to the US government than SK and all the other chaebols are to Korea. They're not even in the same league.
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
On October 14 2010 19:59 alkampfer wrote: Yes the blizzard who created SC1 is no more the same company.
In 1997 Blizzard was still a game company made more of dreamers than moneymakers.
Now they have many more responsibilities... shareholders pressure and so on.
Every choice they make now is because of money, it's the world of big corporations.
Guess what? back in 1997, they were out for money too. thats what a company does. they try to make money.
You mean blizzard is not the same company they were 13 years ago? You mean because they've been successful with what they've been doing that they are now exponentially larger?
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
It's not about fighting the system. Is about fighting activision Moneyzzard. So you like sc2 ? You have probably never played BW
On October 14 2010 19:59 alkampfer wrote: Yes the blizzard who created SC1 is no more the same company.
In 1997 Blizzard was still a game company made more of dreamers than moneymakers.
Now they have many more responsibilities... shareholders pressure and so on.
Every choice they make now is because of money, it's the world of big corporations.
Guess what? back in 1997, they were out for money too. thats what a company does. they try to make money.
You mean blizzard is not the same company they were 13 years ago? You mean because they've been successful with what they've been doing that they are now exponentially larger?
:o stop the presses.
They have been succesfull yes, and probably they won't ever be as succesfull as in the past.
That's because Activision money hungering bought them and transformed them in another thing.
On October 14 2010 19:59 alkampfer wrote: Yes the blizzard who created SC1 is no more the same company.
In 1997 Blizzard was still a game company made more of dreamers than moneymakers.
Now they have many more responsibilities... shareholders pressure and so on.
Every choice they make now is because of money, it's the world of big corporations.
Guess what? back in 1997, they were out for money too. thats what a company does. they try to make money.
You mean blizzard is not the same company they were 13 years ago? You mean because they've been successful with what they've been doing that they are now exponentially larger?
:o stop the presses.
They have been succesfull yes, and probably they won't ever be as succesfull as in the past.
That's because Activision money hungering bought them and transformed them in another thing.
Before you continue with your completely irrational argument, I would like to correct you in that Activision did not buy Blizzard Entertainment. Activision merged with Vivendi Games, Blizzard Entertainment was a company under Vivendi Games. The resulting merged company just happens to be called Activision-Blizzard.
On October 14 2010 20:09 alkampfer wrote: They have been succesfull yes, and probably they won't ever be as succesfull as in the past.
That's because Activision money hungering bought them and transformed them in another thing.
As I understand it, and going by whats been said by Blizzard in the past, when there was concern that Activision would fundamentally change Blizzard - this is incorrect. Blizzard have free hands. They are owned by Activision, but they are steering their own ship.
Theres always a responsibility towards an owner, no matter the context, but in this case Blizzard apparantly have complete operative freedom. The responsibility in this case would solely rest in the balance sheet.
I assume Activision signed off on this due to the extreme success of Blizzard, mainly thru WoW. So it may also be in Activisions own interest to let them be.
I dont have any specific source for this. Its just "as i remember it".
To people comparing that auto industry thing to this, they are incredibly unrelated law wise, its not hard to put up tariffs and such to make selling to your country pretty much impossible, ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to already have a product in your country already and then abuse said product not indirectly, not going around the rules with loopholes, but cut and dry going against them. Much much much much (you get the picture) less wiggle room in that instance
Would e-sports be where it is today in korea without Kespa, no not even close. That still doesnt excuse them from the law, and their dealing with this issue is very unprofessional. Trying to hide behind your government is never very well received (the company equiv of running to mommy and daddy when you were the true troublemaker.... imo) If Kespa had true legal backing they would have already stated said backing, and left it at that.
On October 14 2010 16:26 AcOrP wrote: They want BW to die and SC2 to replace it. But this is not the way. Without solid organization like KeSPA SC2 will be amateur level. Even old pros that switch to it wont be pros.
We are all professionals. It is just that some of us work (play) for money...
My point being: SC2 will be pro e-sport as long as there is enough money in it, regardless of way it organized...
So Gretech warns kespa not to do anything stupid like announcing proleague before they finish negotiations, kespa says fuck you and does it anyway, then Gretech says fuck you right back and then kespa cries fault? Really kespa? Really?
Its in Blizzards Major interest for BW to die out but for it to look like Kespa's fault rather then there own so SC2 will take over completely overnight.
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
It's not about fighting the system. Is about fighting activision Moneyzzard. So you like sc2 ? You have probably never played BW
What the crap does that have anything to do with Gretech-Kespa? Blizzard TRIED to negotiate with KeSPA, and that's OLD NEWS. OLD. NEWS. that kespa was unwilling to negotiate AT ALL.
KeSPA already dug its hole by refusing to negotiate on any terms but their own TWICE, and its getting really deep. Exactly how Gretech, the Korean court system, and by corollary Blizzard ends up punishing (or failing to punish) KeSPA for this is yet to be seen.
I REALLY want BW e-sports to live through this, but I'm struggling to see how it can. But more importantly, I want e-sports to survive, at any cost. I know most of you agree with this- if e-sports dies entirely, WE ALL LOSE, and it won't matter which organization was "right" or "evil"
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
It's not about fighting the system. Is about fighting activision Moneyzzard. So you like sc2 ? You have probably never played BW
What the crap does that have anything to do with Gretech-Kespa? Blizzard TRIED to negotiate with KeSPA, and that's OLD NEWS. OLD. NEWS. that kespa was unwilling to negotiate AT ALL.
KeSPA already dug its hole by refusing to negotiate on any terms but their own TWICE, and its getting really deep. Exactly how Gretech, the Korean court system, and by corollary Blizzard ends up punishing (or failing to punish) KeSPA for this is yet to be seen.
I REALLY want BW e-sports to live through this, but I'm struggling to see how it can. But more importantly, I want e-sports to survive, at any cost. I know most of you agree with this- if e-sports dies entirely, WE ALL LOSE, and it won't matter which organization was "right" or "evil"
well BW is the only esport Oo so i only care about BW if i care about esports.hosting some random tournaments with uhuhuhu much prize hunting isnt esport.
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
It's not about fighting the system. Is about fighting activision Moneyzzard. So you like sc2 ? You have probably never played BW
What the crap does that have anything to do with Gretech-Kespa? Blizzard TRIED to negotiate with KeSPA, and that's OLD NEWS. OLD. NEWS. that kespa was unwilling to negotiate AT ALL.
KeSPA already dug its hole by refusing to negotiate on any terms but their own TWICE, and its getting really deep. Exactly how Gretech, the Korean court system, and by corollary Blizzard ends up punishing (or failing to punish) KeSPA for this is yet to be seen.
I REALLY want BW e-sports to live through this, but I'm struggling to see how it can. But more importantly, I want e-sports to survive, at any cost. I know most of you agree with this- if e-sports dies entirely, WE ALL LOSE, and it won't matter which organization was "right" or "evil"
well BW is the only esport Oo so i only care about BW if i care about esports.hosting some random tournaments with uhuhuhu much prize hunting isnt esport.
If BW is a true e-sport, then it will survive regardless of Kespa but if BW is just a miracle circus show, then people will eventually want to see a new act.
it will survive. and for SCII it will be another Wc3. have TROLOLO much tournaments with prize money until the next game is annoucned and then everyone will forget the game.
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
It's not about fighting the system. Is about fighting activision Moneyzzard. So you like sc2 ? You have probably never played BW
What the crap does that have anything to do with Gretech-Kespa? Blizzard TRIED to negotiate with KeSPA, and that's OLD NEWS. OLD. NEWS. that kespa was unwilling to negotiate AT ALL.
KeSPA already dug its hole by refusing to negotiate on any terms but their own TWICE, and its getting really deep. Exactly how Gretech, the Korean court system, and by corollary Blizzard ends up punishing (or failing to punish) KeSPA for this is yet to be seen.
I REALLY want BW e-sports to live through this, but I'm struggling to see how it can. But more importantly, I want e-sports to survive, at any cost. I know most of you agree with this- if e-sports dies entirely, WE ALL LOSE, and it won't matter which organization was "right" or "evil"
Old news is people like you making ignorant posts. KeSPA tried to negotiate, but blizzard gave them ridiculous terms nobody in KeSPA's place would've accepted either...
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
It's not about fighting the system. Is about fighting activision Moneyzzard. So you like sc2 ? You have probably never played BW
What the crap does that have anything to do with Gretech-Kespa? Blizzard TRIED to negotiate with KeSPA, and that's OLD NEWS. OLD. NEWS. that kespa was unwilling to negotiate AT ALL.
KeSPA already dug its hole by refusing to negotiate on any terms but their own TWICE, and its getting really deep. Exactly how Gretech, the Korean court system, and by corollary Blizzard ends up punishing (or failing to punish) KeSPA for this is yet to be seen.
I REALLY want BW e-sports to live through this, but I'm struggling to see how it can. But more importantly, I want e-sports to survive, at any cost. I know most of you agree with this- if e-sports dies entirely, WE ALL LOSE, and it won't matter which organization was "right" or "evil"
Old news is people like you making ignorant posts. KeSPA tried to negotiate, but blizzard gave them ridiculous terms nobody in KeSPA's place would've accepted either...
On October 14 2010 21:08 bluesoup wrote: We are all professionals. It is just that some of us work (play) for money...
sure we are professionals : D: D: D srsly wtf?
LOL. You don't get it, do you?. Prime requisite for being pro in any occupation (work/sport/e-sport) is being paid enough to so that you can dedicate yourself to that occupation without having side-job to support yourself. Earning (enough) money from what you do makes you professional.
KeSPA doesn't make BW pro. MSL/OSL prize money and team salaries make it professional (e)sport. KeSPA is just regulatory body, not mandatory for something being professional occupation. Regulatory bodies (or organizations of professionals) became necessary as the profession matures, but usually one of their functions (among others) is increasing the barrier of entry in that field so existing professionals can make more money...
My total income from BW/SC2 is about -80EUR (cost of the games). Decide yourself if I, or anybody else is professional
On October 14 2010 19:27 alkampfer wrote: I really hope Blizzard will be destroyed in a court. This could teach them what is respect for thousands of people... gamers and fans.
And maybe they'll be forced to improve SC2 to BW gameplay level.
Because like this SC2 is not so epic.... i am already tired of it and i've already stopped laddering 1 week ago.
Their respect for gamers and fans? WTF are you smoking? They created starcraft 1 and 2.
AHAHAHAHAH so do you think that they created SC2 because of respect ???
They created it for money son... for money ONLY. And they want to kill BW for that also.
oh yes. boohoo they created SC2 to make money. and guess what? people seem to like the games blizzard makes.
All the more power to you though. Fight the system! *shakes fist* screw you blizzard for creating these amazing games!
It's not about fighting the system. Is about fighting activision Moneyzzard. So you like sc2 ? You have probably never played BW
What the crap does that have anything to do with Gretech-Kespa? Blizzard TRIED to negotiate with KeSPA, and that's OLD NEWS. OLD. NEWS. that kespa was unwilling to negotiate AT ALL.
KeSPA already dug its hole by refusing to negotiate on any terms but their own TWICE, and its getting really deep. Exactly how Gretech, the Korean court system, and by corollary Blizzard ends up punishing (or failing to punish) KeSPA for this is yet to be seen.
I REALLY want BW e-sports to live through this, but I'm struggling to see how it can. But more importantly, I want e-sports to survive, at any cost. I know most of you agree with this- if e-sports dies entirely, WE ALL LOSE, and it won't matter which organization was "right" or "evil"
Old news is people like you making ignorant posts. KeSPA tried to negotiate, but blizzard gave them ridiculous terms nobody in KeSPA's place would've accepted either...
What were these ridiculous terms?
Use the search button (or you could even try going through my post history). I can't be arsed to write an essay everytime someone ask a question like this. It has been beaten to death. It's not that hard to find the list of blizzard's demands and some threads about their deal with gretech.
On October 14 2010 21:08 bluesoup wrote: We are all professionals. It is just that some of us work (play) for money...
sure we are professionals : D: D: D srsly wtf?
LOL. You don't get it, do you?. Prime requisite for being pro in any occupation (work/sport/e-sport) is being paid enough to so that you can dedicate yourself to that occupation without having side-job to support yourself. Earning (enough) money from what you do makes you professional.
KeSPA doesn't make BW pro. MSL/OSL prize money and team salaries make it professional (e)sport. KeSPA is just regulatory body, not mandatory for something being professional occupation. Regulatory bodies (or organizations of professionals) became necessary as the profession matures, but usually one of their functions (among others) is increasing the barrier of entry in that field so existing professionals can make more money...
My total income from BW/SC2 is about -80EUR (cost of the games). Decide yourself if I, or anybody else is professional
No, it does not. Teams (and spooring corporations) pay those salaries. KeSPA serves the purpose of regulating BW, increasing barrier to entry (courage) and lowering salaries of progamers... It is formed by BW pro-teams, and it does work towards increasing teams profits however...
The Kespa vs Gretech thing is starting to worry me. At the end, maybe Blizzard just wanted to give BW it's coup de grace by giving Gretech exclusive rights. I make sense on a monetary point of view to make place for SC2 by killing BW.
No, it does not. Teams (and spooring corporations) pay those salaries. KeSPA serves the purpose of regulating BW, increasing barrier to entry (courage) and lowering salaries of progamers... It is formed by BW pro-teams, and it does work towards increasing teams profits however...
Please do some research before posting stuff like that.
On October 15 2010 01:00 Murderotica wrote: I hope the korean court system rapes gretech/activision/blizzard. Really KeSPA has no need to support Blizzard "laws".
What "Blizzard" laws? Blizzard didn't come up with IP laws. It would be the same issue with any game made by any developer.
On October 14 2010 18:46 ffreakk wrote: @ the Gretech employee guy (or so he claimed)
You ask why people think that Kespa has made any contribution to esports? Heres my perspective:
Other than the game that is played (which is merely a tool, mind), Kespa is responsible for everything there is in E-Sport today: televised Leagues, stable-salaried proteams, arena for top players (Leagues) + training ground for young aspirants (training houses, B-teams), celebrity gamers.. Take a look: + Show Spoiler +
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
It is easy to see why people like me want to have them around, because we clearly see how much they have done, and it matters to us.. They may have screwed up here and there, but from my Point of View, their accomplishments far outshine their shortcomings.
Now on the other hand, looking at what Gretech has done.. Not much, aint it? :/ And now its trying to kill off all said accomplishment, making thousands of people jobless because of a little profit, or a little pride.. Is it still hard to understand our sentiments?
Ok now I see where all the misunderstanding is coming from.
Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic. Now we run GSL which we also send out English broadcast. And you say we have contriubted nothing? well maybe we would have done more if KESPA really did care about esports.
I can give credit to OGN and MBC but not Kespa. KESPA is an organization made of representives from sponsors not gaming fans. The esports todays exists because of the players and fans who support it. All Kespa has been doing is abuse their power to earn money. They forced OGN and MBC to pay 1500million KRW to broacast SC. Now they still won't pay Blizzard its copyright and offers 300 million to have all the right to SC tournaments and broadcasting. No wonder most Korean SC fans including myself hate KESPA.
I was absolutely outraged when I read the article about what Kespa did to NaDa after he joined SC2. NaDa probably contributed to esports 1000times more than Kespa and that's how they treat him.
I'm not saying Gretech is right and Kespa is wrong because I work for GOM. There is no right and wrong in reality. But I'd rather support GOM which tries to care for global fans even though it's small and underfunded rather than Kespa which doesn't give a damn about global fans cuz most sponsors don't see any merit in it. I really wish situation hadn't come to this, causing disturbance to fans all over the world, but there seems little choice left now.
No, it does not. Teams (and spooring corporations) pay those salaries. KeSPA serves the purpose of regulating BW, increasing barrier to entry (courage) and lowering salaries of progamers... It is formed by BW pro-teams, and it does work towards increasing teams profits however...
Please do some research before posting stuff like that.
No, it does not. Teams (and spooring corporations) pay those salaries. KeSPA serves the purpose of regulating BW, increasing barrier to entry (courage) and lowering salaries of progamers... It is formed by BW pro-teams, and it does work towards increasing teams profits however...
You have no idea what you're talking about. The corporations behind the progaming teams constitute KeSPA (besides other parties, such as for example the referees). It does not lower the salaries. Are you out of your fucking mind? T____T If it wasn't for the corporations that make up KeSPA, there wouldn't be any players that actually have any salary, save for the few top players. Courage does not increase the entry barrier. It makes becoming a progamer easiers since you don't have to win it in order to get drafted, while it makes showing off your skill much easier...
On October 15 2010 02:04 maybenexttime wrote: You have no idea what you're talking about. Are you out of your fucking mind?
Perhaps... perhaps... I wonder if that message deserves resonse after that, but i will try my best anyway...
The corporations behind the progaming teams constitute KeSPA (besides other parties, such as for example the referees).
I mentioned regulating Korean BW pro scene....Necessity for any mature (e)sport... Teams need it and they formed it...
... It does not lower the salaries...
Check Jaedong free-agent fiasco one year ago... From KeSPA about poge:
This association lays its purpose on activation of e-Sports, creation of a wholesome gaming culture through it, and promoting the rights of its members.
KeSPA promotes the rights of its members... Lets see who they are... ah, the programing teams that are controlled (owned or sponsored) by corporations. Last time i checked, corporations are in business of making money and profits on behalf of their stockholders... Paying (sponsoring) progamers is operational expense, usually on the marketing budget... So KeSPA's interest on progamer salaris is... what?
Courage does not increase the entry barrier
Progamer license is an entry barrier, no matter how you slice it. or wether it is resonable or nececary. Sanctioning only few individual leagues of their choosing is barrier to entry (in the e-sports business). As both MBCGame and OGN are members of KeSPA, i wonder whose interests it will protect...
(courage) you don't have to win it in order to get drafted
My knowledge here is very limited, but I was under impression that only KeSPA or one of its members can grant you progamer license? And in order to be drafted, what is necessary ?
So IMHO, has KeSPA done good for the Korean e-Sports? It did, as outlined few posts above, but only to the point where it was in common interest of its founding members. Like more fans flocking to live events, more viewers on TV where sponsoring corporations can present their messages etc... Nothing wrong there, but people should be aware of its real interests...
But look carefully at the posted images. You will see players and fans. Do you see KeSPA representatives? So who really is the Korean e-sports scene ? With Boxer, Nada, July, etc... on SC2 bandwagon, do you think it will be different for GSL ? Do they NEED KeSPA ?
KeSPA is a monster created at the time it was needed for the ones who created it. It has nothing to do with e-sports fans or players. It was cute at the beginning, when it was small, and actually did few nice things... And now that monster is growing and needing more food to keep up its growth... It is slowly eating the branch on which it is seating... It is about to start eating e-sports fans, players, international game partners... Ugly things will happen....
I wish everybody was a bit smarter about SC2 release, like gradually integrating it into existing proleague (few games BW, few games SC2), paying some IP rights, etc... But it seems we have self interested corporations on both sides... What a surprising turn of events...
On October 14 2010 18:46 ffreakk wrote: @ the Gretech employee guy (or so he claimed)
You ask why people think that Kespa has made any contribution to esports? Heres my perspective:
Other than the game that is played (which is merely a tool, mind), Kespa is responsible for everything there is in E-Sport today: televised Leagues, stable-salaried proteams, arena for top players (Leagues) + training ground for young aspirants (training houses, B-teams), celebrity gamers.. Take a look: + Show Spoiler +
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
It is easy to see why people like me want to have them around, because we clearly see how much they have done, and it matters to us.. They may have screwed up here and there, but from my Point of View, their accomplishments far outshine their shortcomings.
Now on the other hand, looking at what Gretech has done.. Not much, aint it? :/ And now its trying to kill off all said accomplishment, making thousands of people jobless because of a little profit, or a little pride.. Is it still hard to understand our sentiments?
Ok now I see where all the misunderstanding is coming from.
Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic. Now we run GSL which we also send out English broadcast. And you say we have contriubted nothing? well maybe we would have done more if KESPA really did care about esports.
I can give credit to OGN and MBC but not Kespa. KESPA is an organization made of representives from sponsors not gaming fans. The esports todays exists because of the players and fans who support it. All Kespa has been doing is abuse their power to earn money. They forced OGN and MBC to pay 1500million KRW to broacast SC. Now they still won't pay Blizzard its copyright and offers 300 million to have all the right to SC tournaments and broadcasting. No wonder most Korean SC fans including myself hate KESPA.
I was absolutely outraged when I read the article about what Kespa did to NaDa after he joined SC2. NaDa probably contributed to esports 1000times more than Kespa and that's how they treat him.
I'm not saying Gretech is right and Kespa is wrong because I work for GOM. There is no right and wrong in reality. But I'd rather support GOM which tries to care for global fans even though it's small and underfunded rather than Kespa which doesn't give a damn about global fans cuz most sponsors don't see any merit in it. I really wish situation hadn't come to this, causing disturbance to fans all over the world, but there seems little choice left now.
Just going to let you know, the biggest supporters of kespa are the people who just see kespa associated with their favorite esport. and know that kespa is in control of things, but don't know much more. These tend to be foreigners. so for some reason the foreigners will care deeply about korean opinions and things, up until it disagrees with the kespa-is-awesome myth in the foreign world. some of us don't like kespa, but we are considered "stupid' and "wrong" for doing so. It's just how the fanatical SC fanbase is. Keep up the awesome with sc2 Junkka. we still <3 you.
The hard part for me to truly swallow is the idea that Kespa is indeed laying down in the bed they made: They made enemies of most of the groups involved here. I have little doubt in my mind had kespa pulled back from trying to essentially sell proleague to the companies that helped make it and didn't hand Gretech a large card saying "Fuck You" when they were trying to join in and help the brood war scene for essentially smiling in the general direction of Blizzrd, that we'd not be in the same situation we stand in now.
Similarly, had Gretech and Blizzard simply been the bigger company and let it all slide in hopes of leaving the already off kilter Broodwar scene alone, We'd also not be in the same situation. And honestly, I'm almost more disppointed in the latter two, simply because they are companies I had hope for, I had learned quite a while ago that KeSPA is slightly less flexible than a block of concrete.
On October 14 2010 18:46 ffreakk wrote: @ the Gretech employee guy (or so he claimed)
You ask why people think that Kespa has made any contribution to esports? Heres my perspective:
Other than the game that is played (which is merely a tool, mind), Kespa is responsible for everything there is in E-Sport today: televised Leagues, stable-salaried proteams, arena for top players (Leagues) + training ground for young aspirants (training houses, B-teams), celebrity gamers.. Take a look: + Show Spoiler +
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
It is easy to see why people like me want to have them around, because we clearly see how much they have done, and it matters to us.. They may have screwed up here and there, but from my Point of View, their accomplishments far outshine their shortcomings.
Now on the other hand, looking at what Gretech has done.. Not much, aint it? :/ And now its trying to kill off all said accomplishment, making thousands of people jobless because of a little profit, or a little pride.. Is it still hard to understand our sentiments?
Ok now I see where all the misunderstanding is coming from.
Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic. Now we run GSL which we also send out English broadcast. And you say we have contriubted nothing? well maybe we would have done more if KESPA really did care about esports.
I can give credit to OGN and MBC but not Kespa. KESPA is an organization made of representives from sponsors not gaming fans. The esports todays exists because of the players and fans who support it. All Kespa has been doing is abuse their power to earn money. They forced OGN and MBC to pay 1500million KRW to broacast SC. Now they still won't pay Blizzard its copyright and offers 300 million to have all the right to SC tournaments and broadcasting. No wonder most Korean SC fans including myself hate KESPA.
I was absolutely outraged when I read the article about what Kespa did to NaDa after he joined SC2. NaDa probably contributed to esports 1000times more than Kespa and that's how they treat him.
I'm not saying Gretech is right and Kespa is wrong because I work for GOM. There is no right and wrong in reality. But I'd rather support GOM which tries to care for global fans even though it's small and underfunded rather than Kespa which doesn't give a damn about global fans cuz most sponsors don't see any merit in it. I really wish situation hadn't come to this, causing disturbance to fans all over the world, but there seems little choice left now.
Just going to let you know, the biggest supporters of kespa are the people who just see kespa associated with their favorite esport. and know that kespa is in control of things, but don't know much more. These tend to be foreigners. so for some reason the foreigners will care deeply about korean opinions and things, up until it disagrees with the kespa-is-awesome myth in the foreign world. some of us don't like kespa, but we are considered "stupid' and "wrong" for doing so. It's just how the fanatical SC fanbase is. Keep up the awesome with sc2 Junkka. we still <3 you.
Well obviously fanboyism plays a part in what people support. I prefer the free awesome entertainment Kespa provides, you prefer the inferior entertainment that you have to pay Blizzard to get. Makes sense when Kespa fanboys to support the people who provide them with free awesome entertainment when Blizzard want to shut it down and substitute it with some shit.
legally it's perfectly clear; kespa is in constant violation of copyright-laws; I just don't get why so many here have the "robin hood" mentality aka if somebody does something that seems "good" he is allowed to violate the law; if I wrote a book today, somebody copied it and it turned out to be a frickin bestseller, would I automatically lose my copy rights? and shouldn't I be able to sue the hell out of this somebody if he just continues to make money with MY book
regardless of what kespa has done, this is still blizzards frickin product; kespa wants to make money, gretech wants to make money, blizzard wants to make money; the one who violates the law by doing this loses - quite simple
as someone who teaches law at an Austrian university, let me tell you that people take legal actions for FAR much minor things every day; considering how stubborn kespa acted, they left gretech without any choice;
On October 15 2010 04:03 sleepingdog wrote: really interesting to follow this whole stuff...
legally it's perfectly clear; kespa is in constant violation of copyright-laws; I just don't get why so many here have the "robin hood" mentality aka if somebody does something that seems "good" he is allowed to violate the law; if I wrote a book today, somebody copied it and it turned out to be a frickin bestseller, would I automatically lose my copy rights? and shouldn't I be able to sue the hell out of this somebody if he just continues to make money with MY book
regardless of what kespa has done, this is still blizzards frickin product; kespa wants to make money, gretech wants to make money, blizzard wants to make money; the one who violates the law by doing this loses - quite simple
as someone who teaches law at an Austrian university, let me tell you that people take legal actions for FAR much minor things every day; considering how stubborn kespa acted, they left gretech without any choice;
A lot of folks like to point out that the laws in Korea are different/might be different from what westerners are familiar with, so posts such as yours are more like assumptions from a western perspective. If you are indeed a law educator, would you mind bringing to light if that logic is flawed (for example if KesPA are violating internationally accepted IP laws or if Korea's laws should already be favorable for Blizzard).
On October 15 2010 04:03 sleepingdog wrote: ... if I wrote a book today, somebody copied it and it turned out to be a frickin bestseller, would I automatically lose my copy rights? and shouldn't I be able to sue the hell out of this somebody if he just continues to make money with MY book...
Well, it is not that they are copying the book. They probably legally bought all the books that use on their show. They are more like just reading few pages of that book every night on TV, hehe... I wonder where the IP/copyright law stands on that specific issue...
But, I would like more to ask on your opinion weather it is legally (i.e. in Austrian legal system) at all that organization like KeSPA has rights to restrict trade, like in this case players and contracts... Wikipedia page for draft states that they are legal (i.e. in US) because of 'collective bargaining agreements' with player unions. AFIK, e-sports player unions do not exist in Korea for BW... Thank you.
On October 15 2010 04:03 sleepingdog wrote: ... if I wrote a book today, somebody copied it and it turned out to be a frickin bestseller, would I automatically lose my copy rights? and shouldn't I be able to sue the hell out of this somebody if he just continues to make money with MY book...
Well, it is not that they are copying the book. They probably legally bought all the books that use on their show. They are more like just reading few pages of that book every night on TV, hehe... I wonder where the IP/copyright law stands on that specific issue...
I'd guess it's the same as playing music on TV shows. They only play a small clip yet still have to get permission from the artists/label to run it.
On October 14 2010 18:46 ffreakk wrote: @ the Gretech employee guy (or so he claimed)
You ask why people think that Kespa has made any contribution to esports? Heres my perspective:
Other than the game that is played (which is merely a tool, mind), Kespa is responsible for everything there is in E-Sport today: televised Leagues, stable-salaried proteams, arena for top players (Leagues) + training ground for young aspirants (training houses, B-teams), celebrity gamers.. Take a look: + Show Spoiler +
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
It is easy to see why people like me want to have them around, because we clearly see how much they have done, and it matters to us.. They may have screwed up here and there, but from my Point of View, their accomplishments far outshine their shortcomings.
Now on the other hand, looking at what Gretech has done.. Not much, aint it? :/ And now its trying to kill off all said accomplishment, making thousands of people jobless because of a little profit, or a little pride.. Is it still hard to understand our sentiments?
Ok now I see where all the misunderstanding is coming from.
Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic. Now we run GSL which we also send out English broadcast. And you say we have contriubted nothing? well maybe we would have done more if KESPA really did care about esports.
I can give credit to OGN and MBC but not Kespa. KESPA is an organization made of representives from sponsors not gaming fans. The esports todays exists because of the players and fans who support it. All Kespa has been doing is abuse their power to earn money. They forced OGN and MBC to pay 1500million KRW to broacast SC. Now they still won't pay Blizzard its copyright and offers 300 million to have all the right to SC tournaments and broadcasting. No wonder most Korean SC fans including myself hate KESPA.
I was absolutely outraged when I read the article about what Kespa did to NaDa after he joined SC2. NaDa probably contributed to esports 1000times more than Kespa and that's how they treat him.
I'm not saying Gretech is right and Kespa is wrong because I work for GOM. There is no right and wrong in reality. But I'd rather support GOM which tries to care for global fans even though it's small and underfunded rather than Kespa which doesn't give a damn about global fans cuz most sponsors don't see any merit in it. I really wish situation hadn't come to this, causing disturbance to fans all over the world, but there seems little choice left now.
Now, for that old case of GOMTV Classic. The version i heard was a little different. Kespa allowed GOMTV Classics to broadcast its show for two seasons, this much is fact. Now from what i have heard, the rating for your show is rather low, resulting in little to no prestige to be won from participating in your tournaments. Slowly, team started to pull players out for this same reason (wasting time to train for a tourney that doesnt matter is simply bad, players had their schedule full with PL, MSL, OSL).. Feel free to confirm/deny as i too believe that there is more than one side to a story.
Now you may say that you are trying to help, and care for the fans.. But we (i) short-sighted fan(s) can only see whats immediately in front of us, so you would have to pardon me for being unable to see the big picture that you painted.. But as far as i can see:
1/ Kespa provides better entertainment (Brood War is the superior game, in my (along with many others) opinion.
2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed.
1/ is debatable, but 2/ is pure fact. Not to mention, you conveniently ignoring Blizz's 6 demands to Kespa (we all know what those 6 were) . I would love to see how you argue your way into making Blizz sound reasonable on those terms.
@ PrinceXizor You are a foreigner yourself, and your posts reek of fanboyism as much as mine do. Spare us the sarcarm and kindly bring logic/arguments into the discussion. Thanks in advance.
Now with Jon747's account being deleted, KeSPA failing negotiations, and SC2 in stores and gaining popularity, this does not look good for the future of BW.
Well obviously fanboyism plays a part in what people support. I prefer the free awesome entertainment Kespa provides, you prefer the inferior entertainment that you have to pay Blizzard to get. Makes sense when Kespa fanboys to support the people who provide them with free awesome entertainment when Blizzard want to shut it down and substitute it with some shit.
I haven't paid blizzard anything to watch my sc2 tournaments, in fact i haven't paid anything at all. and blizzard doesn't want to shut it down, people keep thinking that and it's stupid. if gretech or blizzard wanted to shut down SC1 they would have done it. they legally have the right to. However gretech has wanted some timeslot manuevering, and to be recognised for the rights they legally have. if this goes to lawsuit, and gretech wins it will be kespa shutting down BW and not gretech, as it will be kespa refusing to admit to not having the rights, and preferring to shut down rather than just sign something giving them the ability to run. because they are too damn prideful.
EDIT: just so people know, i've been watching sc1 since boxer became the symbol of sc1, i missed out before then, but i've been a fan since then.
On October 15 2010 05:06 ffreakk wrote: 1/ is debatable, but 2/ is pure fact. Not to mention, you conveniently ignoring Blizz's 6 demands to Kespa (we all know what those 6 were) . I would love to see how you argue your way into making Blizz sound reasonable on those terms.
What would those 6 demands be? Not sure where to look for it and what keywords are involved, so I (and others just getting involved) would greatly appreciate if would reiterate those demands and where you got the information regarding those demands.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. All progamers under Kespa are to sigh a contract with Blizzard that overrides that of Kespa. 4. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 5. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 6. Right to audit KeSPA
Search around this forum, you will find some. Or Google "Audit Kespa Teamliquid" and you will reach some results as well.
@ PrinceXizor
if gretech or blizzard wanted to shut down SC1 they would have done it. they legally have the right to
I thought we agreed that only the court can pass decisions on this? Why are you (and some others) insisting on passing judgement as if they are the law? Also do take note that if those guys (Blizz n Gretech) just go and try to kill Brood War outright, the public outcry resulted from it is not something that they will be willing to overlook. Playing the "nice guy" at the same time stabbing the other side while the public arent looking is really their best plan, imo.
On October 15 2010 05:06 ffreakk wrote: Now, for that old case of GOMTV Classic. The version i heard was a little different. Kespa allowed GOMTV Classics to broadcast its show for two seasons, this much is fact. Now from what i have heard, the rating for your show is rather low, resulting in little to no prestige to be won from participating in your tournaments. Slowly, teams started to pull players out for this same reason (wasting time to train for a tourney that doesnt matter is simply bad, players had their schedule full with PL, MSL, OSL).. Feel free to confirm/deny as i too believe that there is more than one sideto a story.
It is interesting which teams did not participate in the GOMTV leagues. If you check matchlists for:
You will find that consistently missing are two teams, MBC and OGN Sparkyz... Both owned by rival broadcasting companies, KeSPA members... Interests anybody ?
As for player over-schedule, that part was probably true. Except, that was something fans brought up. KeSPA might have used it later as an excuse, but that they actually cared for the players...
As for the ratings... Well at least I enjoyed watching Flash vs Jaedong, Jaedong vs Bisu, Flash vs Bisu, etc... How low rating do you suppose those matches had... For foreigner publicity, check: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=45443
2 among 11 teams did not participate, and you blamed them for boycott? Or was the other 9 so insignificant that only these two matter? Personally, having80% of their teams to join GOMTV Classic's tournament does not sound anything like a boycott to me.. If anything, those team stayed out as individual teams, with their own reasons, not because of a barrier placed by the governing body (Kespa). You say because of two members from Kespa not participating == them boycotting as a whole? What happen to STK, KT, CJ, etc where do they belong?
As for the viewer rating.. It was a fact that GOMTV Classics ratings were low. "Flash vs Jaedong zomg" isnt all there is to a tournament.. Be it their tournament formats or subpar organisor, that the show wasnt popular was true.. When its unpopular, big-name players pull out (said over-schedule), which cause the show's ratings to plummet even more.. Regarding foreign publicity, it is completely irrelevant to the show's rating, which is calculated purely in Korea.
People often just label Kespa as a boycott for that incident, quoting only the fact that Kespa player withdrawn from it.. Shouldnt the development of that tournament over the course of 3 (more like 2) seasons be taken into consideration as well?
threatening to revoke progamer licenses if they participated in GoM Classic is about as boycotting a move you can do, not to mention a douche move to a company that was trying to broadcast the SCBW scene outward to the global market.
I'm sorry, but getting tasteless fired was a dick move. Who hates tasteless? How can you?
I was a neutral fan until this week when people like you really just take a shit on the face of SC2 fans.
Whoever you are, please don't make yourself seem like an expert in this matter. You are obviously biased and can't get your head out of your ass to give objective viewpoints. The only claim that I want to reply is this:
2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed.
You think Kespa allows free entertainment? I along with countless fans from the U.S and Europe had to rely on Jon747 and Nevake's YT channels, TL streams from Roffles, Konadora, Solinren who would used their webcams to stream for us. A person on North America could bypass the Korean registration process to watch directly from a Korean website, but would get unwatchable laggy streams because of the foreign IP.
Korean e-sports (Kespa) never went out of their way to showcase SC1 matches outside of Korea.They provided no foreign coverage, no outreach, and made it very tough to watch games unless you live in Korea.
When GOM had their STAR invitational, it was surprising to see a production where they had a website that everybody around the world can go to and watch the matches. It even had an English speaking commentator who made it even more entertaining to watch the game.
So it makes you wonder why Kespa never had anything like this? It is because the foreign market wasn't a revenue source. They had probably five years to work on this, but they never did. They have a shitload of sponsors and they still never took the time to invest in the community outside of Korea. GOM reached out to the world in just their first tournament.
There's other issues such as GOM's current lack of sponsors, no television deal, world-wide bandwidth costs, but I'm not a fucking expert so I'm not going to worry and just enjoy watching SC2 season 1 VODs and the upcoming PHENOMENAL season 2 tournament.
As far as SC1 BW, I enjoyed it's rich legacy, but the Kespa fans really made me happy to watch BW get a slow death. It's similar to tying up an insect and pull a leg off each week. When the time comes when the head is pulled, I'll gladly remember this thread and probably laugh at all the crying fanboys.
On October 15 2010 04:03 sleepingdog wrote: really interesting to follow this whole stuff...
legally it's perfectly clear; kespa is in constant violation of copyright-laws; I just don't get why so many here have the "robin hood" mentality aka if somebody does something that seems "good" he is allowed to violate the law; if I wrote a book today, somebody copied it and it turned out to be a frickin bestseller, would I automatically lose my copy rights? and shouldn't I be able to sue the hell out of this somebody if he just continues to make money with MY book
regardless of what kespa has done, this is still blizzards frickin product; kespa wants to make money, gretech wants to make money, blizzard wants to make money; the one who violates the law by doing this loses - quite simple
as someone who teaches law at an Austrian university, let me tell you that people take legal actions for FAR much minor things every day; considering how stubborn kespa acted, they left gretech without any choice;
A lot of folks like to point out that the laws in Korea are different/might be different from what westerners are familiar with, so posts such as yours are more like assumptions from a western perspective. If you are indeed a law educator, would you mind bringing to light if that logic is flawed (for example if KesPA are violating internationally accepted IP laws or if Korea's laws should already be favorable for Blizzard).
I think more than likely, the same set of principles apply in any IP laws with some variations (perhaps), regardless of the country (US or Korea). The laws generally favour (protect) the IP holders in any case. If this does go down this path, it will be done according to the full extent of the laws in that country. So the fact that this is happening in korea or as someone has put it that KesPA has government backing etc, would not change the outcome.
If this were to happen, I wouldn't bank on KesPA winning. I think the bottom line is that GOMTV has exclusive broadcasting rights to Starcraft. KesPA should not have force started the PL season at all.
Now, for that old case of GOMTV Classic. The version i heard was a little different. Kespa allowed GOMTV Classics to broadcast its show for two seasons, this much is fact. Now from what i have heard, the rating for your show is rather low, resulting in little to no prestige to be won from participating in your tournaments. Slowly, team started to pull players out for this same reason (wasting time to train for a tourney that doesnt matter is simply bad, players had their schedule full with PL, MSL, OSL).. Feel free to confirm/deny as i too believe that there is more than one side to a story.
Now you may say that you are trying to help, and care for the fans.. But we (i) short-sighted fan(s) can only see whats immediately in front of us, so you would have to pardon me for being unable to see the big picture that you painted.. But as far as i can see:
1/ Kespa provides better entertainment (Brood War is the superior game, in my (along with many others) opinion.
2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed.
1/ is debatable, but 2/ is pure fact. Not to mention, you conveniently ignoring Blizz's 6 demands to Kespa (we all know what those 6 were) . I would love to see how you argue your way into making Blizz sound reasonable on those terms.
1. Define "superior". Larger skill curve does not make it better, otherwise everyone would be playing text based chess. Nubs won't know the annotations and anyone less than experienced won't be able to visualize each move significance.
2. Basically, you have Gretech who listens to fans requests and lowered their pricing and provided free live stream globally vs Kespa who don't listen to fans or reach out to global fans but provide free vods and streams only in Korea. Which one do you think is better?
3. How do you expect Blizzard to be reasonable with Kespa, when kespa does publicity stunts like breaking NDA. The whole point of negotiation is to negotiate, you give and take. If you start breaking NDAs and put your negotiating partner in a poor position (in terms of publicity and negotiation stance), then there is no reason for them to be reasonable with you. Which is really why things broke down.
On October 15 2010 06:43 ffreakk wrote: 2 among 11 teams did not participate, and you blamed them for boycott?
It is your words that teams gradually pulled from GOMTV tournament, which is inaccurate. Only teams that pulled from the tournament are two mentioned above. The rest were bullied by KeSPA. Believe what you would like....
It also fact that KeSPA did not pull the plug on TLO vs NaDa show-match. They publicly stated so! It was just WeMade Fox team orders... And that NaDa played without consulting his team first... Yet, there is a rumor about WeMade SC2 team... And WeMade WC3 pros qualifying into GSL... Again, believe what you would like...
I think it is about time some Koreans woke up and shed some light on us foreigners... Comparing IP-TV only delivery station (GOM) and Cable TV station ratings is like comparing applelords and bananlisks... err, i digress... Maybe do a check on OGN/MBC online viewer ratings and compare that to GOM... But it is irrelevant, isn't it ?
I am an old fanboy. If Boxer switched to WC4, i will watch and probably love that. I do not give a damn about KeSPA daily politics... However, KeSPA trying to block everything that does not suit their current (fiscal) situation, well, lets just say it doesn't make me KeSPA fan...
And last but not least, I believe that professionals play primarily for money, not ratings, glory, etc... If glory, ratings can be converted to money than they will play for glory... There was money to be had in GOM, even if TV ratings were low. Or you believe Boxer, NaDa, Effort, July switched to SC2/GSL just for the GOM GSL ratings ?
On October 15 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote: threatening to revoke progamer licenses if they participated in GoM Classic is about as boycotting a move you can do, not to mention a douche move to a company that was trying to broadcast the SCBW scene outward to the global market.
They never threatened to revoke progamer licenses for the GOM series. If they did, 5 of the teams that said they would participate in season 4 never would have.
2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed.
You think Kespa allows free entertainment? I along with countless fans from the U.S and Europe had to rely on Jon747 and Nevake's YT channels, TL streams from Roffles, Konadora, Solinren who would used their webcams to stream for us. A person on North America could bypass the Korean registration process to watch directly from a Korean website, but would get unwatchable laggy streams because of the foreign IP.
Kespa didn't send copyright infringement notices to Youtube about Jon747's BW and SC2 vods; can't say the same about other people. It wasn't because of the foreign IP, but bad Internet--you make it sound like they went out of their way to throttle foreign IPs. There are a lot of people in NA who can watch the Korean streams just fine.
On October 15 2010 07:24 FishForThought wrote: 2. Basically, you have Gretech who listens to fans requests and lowered their pricing and provided free live stream globally vs Kespa who don't listen to fans or reach out to global fans but provide free vods and streams only in Korea. Which one do you think is better?
The Gretech stream is not strictly free. You have to download the GOM Player, which is ad supported and Gretech's primary source of revenue.
On October 15 2010 06:43 ffreakk wrote: 2 among 11 teams did not participate, and you blamed them for boycott?
It is your words that teams gradually pulled from GOMTV tournament, which is inaccurate. Only teams that pulled from the tournament are two mentioned above. The rest were bullied by KeSPA. Believe what you would like....
SKT wasn't in season 3, and Estro was never in the tournaments. More teams pulled out of Season 4 (all but 5) and Gretech canceled the tournament. It would be inaccurate to say "the rest were bullied by Kespa." At best, it would be "some" since it was only 3 more teams.
@sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^
Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^
Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion.
On October 15 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote: threatening to revoke progamer licenses if they participated in GoM Classic is about as boycotting a move you can do, not to mention a douche move to a company that was trying to broadcast the SCBW scene outward to the global market.
They never threatened to revoke progamer licenses for the GOM series. If they did, 5 of the teams that said they would participate in season 4 never would have.
2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed.
You think Kespa allows free entertainment? I along with countless fans from the U.S and Europe had to rely on Jon747 and Nevake's YT channels, TL streams from Roffles, Konadora, Solinren who would used their webcams to stream for us. A person on North America could bypass the Korean registration process to watch directly from a Korean website, but would get unwatchable laggy streams because of the foreign IP.
Kespa didn't send copyright infringement notices to Youtube about Jon747's BW and SC2 vods; can't say the same about other people. It wasn't because of the foreign IP, but bad Internet--you make it sound like they went out of their way to throttle foreign IPs. There are a lot of people in NA who can watch the Korean streams just fine.
On October 15 2010 07:24 FishForThought wrote: 2. Basically, you have Gretech who listens to fans requests and lowered their pricing and provided free live stream globally vs Kespa who don't listen to fans or reach out to global fans but provide free vods and streams only in Korea. Which one do you think is better?
The Gretech stream is not strictly free. You have to download the GOM Player, which is ad supported and Gretech's primary source of revenue.
On October 15 2010 06:43 ffreakk wrote: 2 among 11 teams did not participate, and you blamed them for boycott?
It is your words that teams gradually pulled from GOMTV tournament, which is inaccurate. Only teams that pulled from the tournament are two mentioned above. The rest were bullied by KeSPA. Believe what you would like....
SKT wasn't in season 3, and Estro was never in the tournaments. More teams pulled out of Season 4 (all but 5) and Gretech canceled the tournament. It would be inaccurate to say "the rest were bullied by Kespa." At best, it would be "some" since it was only 3 more teams.
I'm sorry but you got one story from KeSPA, and you believed it 100%. Now you're getting the other side of the story from GOM and you're doubting it? What ignorance is that especially knowing KeSPA twists shit around all the time?
Who's your source saying they never threatened to revoke progaming licenses? They're doing it now for anyone who wants to try SC2, why is it impossible for them to have done it before? Here we have a direct source from Korea (I love that GOM actually interacts with international fans) and you're turning a blind eye for no reason at all.
KeSPA technically had/has no rights to BW, so sending copywrite to Youtube may or may not have gotten it removed. They'd have to prove they have the rights, which isn't really something they can do atm. The only reason we, the foreign community, got BW VOD's was because of the dedicated fans who recorded, downloaded, and uploaded them for us. Note: Fans =/= KeSPA.
The GOM player is 100% free. It's also a really great media player that I use for pretty much everything. (except music, that stays on iTunes.) Saying it's run on ads is a stretch. None of the free stream gets interrupted by ads, in fact we get extra content during those times such as player interviews. The only thing I could possibly attach your claim to is the small non animated section that links to Norton and that doesn't appear in fullscreen. I'm not sure where you get your information from. Source Image
I for one, as a long time BW fan since the ages of Boxer when I was 11, quite enjoy the way GOM has appealed to us. I love the fact that they've proven they take our advice and work to better their services for us. As an international fan, I feel appreciated. The irrational hate for GOM around these parts simply because of support for KeSPA is stupid.
On October 15 2010 11:32 supernovamaniac wrote: Apparently, the negotiations didn't cease
KeSPA's Twitter:
@sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^
Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^
Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion.
It's pretty shocking that this made the front page of TL as news then. That blog about the Korean government v Blizzard was suspicious, but no one touted it as fact. This felt like fact, at least to me. Scary!
I rather not watch Starcraft Leagues if Blizzard's copyright is not fully protected. It's quite funny how American(foreign) fans want KeSPA to win, while actual Korean fans do not wish KeSPA to win. Maybe you American(foreign) fans don't give a crap but just to watch more game, but for Korean fans know what KeSPA did, their numerous mistake, and selling broadcasting right is one of the major ones. It's funny to see that Korean fans actually want American company's right protected, while American fans are actually against to protect American company's right.
Leaving for school in a minute, no time to write more essays but.. if Blizz is to have their rights fully protected.. Read the SC2 EULA and see what the future of e-Sports looks like.. Blizz even explicitly reserve the rights to kill the game whenever they want.
With every Korean guy that support Gretech in this forums, i could pull out another Korean guy if not more who would have Kespa win.. In our (my) opinion, they provide the better game with better maps, better players.. So we want more such games, nothing difficult to understand about that yes? I also appreciate them for making progamer a viable job, and good players get stable salary income, as opposed to the unstable nature of price-hunting (top RTS players like JulyZerg, Tester, Spirit_Moon all failed to qualify for GSL 2 relatively recently, no?)..
And of course, Blizz made great games i was a big fan of all their titles up till before SC2..
I actually wrote a really long post, but then I realized it was retarded since it was going to end up an argument of he-said, she-said and what-ifs where neither side has anything substantial, but I will say something that you're clearly wrong on.
On October 15 2010 11:54 xBillehx wrote: The GOM player is 100% free. It's also a really great media player that I use for pretty much everything. (except music, that stays on iTunes.) Saying it's run on ads is a stretch. None of the free stream gets interrupted by ads, in fact we get extra content during those times such as player interviews. The only thing I could possibly attach your claim to is the small non animated section that links to Norton and that doesn't appear in fullscreen. I'm not sure where you get your information from. Source Image
Is the Korean version of the GOM Player suddenly not the GOM Player anymore? Just because they haven't found advertisers for the English version, doesn't mean that the player itself is not ad supported. The function is built into the player to display ads.
dear brozors u are so stupid , all the osl , msl and proleague is uploaded on korean sites, check out for example daum , u think u are so smart but u're really so stupid
"Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future."
edit: Blah- I really don't want to get into an argument over a media player. I can tell you I enjoy it and I have no ads, so it's not disrupting my personal experience whatsoever. As for the KeSPA-Gretech arguments, most of it really is he said-she said and a bunch of speculation based off of those he said-she said arguments.
@Ryo: Please, that channel got suspended because it violated Youtube's ToS. If something is uploaded without the rights to it, the owners have every right to request it's removal. (Note that's all they really do, request it's removal.) Youtube removes them and Youtube warns the account, it's their own rules. If you want to be mad at someone for that be mad at Youtube for imposing a three strike policy that's obviously unfair. You make it seem like Gretech was out for blood to shut all the old BW videos down, so forgive me if I forgot my tinfoil hat.
On October 15 2010 11:32 supernovamaniac wrote: Apparently, the negotiations didn't cease
KeSPA's Twitter:
@sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^
Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^
Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion.
This is great news if this is true. It's impossible to know if it is though.
On October 15 2010 18:12 aru wrote: I actually wrote a really long post, but then I realized it was retarded since it was going to end up an argument of he-said, she-said and what-ifs where neither side has anything substantial, but I will say something that you're clearly wrong on.
On October 15 2010 11:54 xBillehx wrote: The GOM player is 100% free. It's also a really great media player that I use for pretty much everything. (except music, that stays on iTunes.) Saying it's run on ads is a stretch. None of the free stream gets interrupted by ads, in fact we get extra content during those times such as player interviews. The only thing I could possibly attach your claim to is the small non animated section that links to Norton and that doesn't appear in fullscreen. I'm not sure where you get your information from. Source Image
Is the Korean version of the GOM Player suddenly not the GOM Player anymore? Just because they haven't found advertisers for the English version, doesn't mean that the player itself is not ad supported. The function is built into the player to display ads.
@Ryo: Please, that channel got suspended because it violated Youtube's ToS. If something is uploaded without the rights to it, the owners have every right to request it's removal. (Note that's all they really do, request it's removal.) Youtube removes them and Youtube warns the account, it's their own rules. If you want to be mad at someone for that be mad at Youtube for imposing a three strike policy that's obviously unfair. You make it seem like Gretech was out for blood to shut all the old BW videos down, so forgive me if I forgot my tinfoil hat.
If you had read the quote properly, you'd have noticed that 1. He was issued a notice for videos he had already removed. 2. Never have I ever said anything close to "Gretech was out for blood to shut all the old BW videos down" in any of my posts. What I did point out is that this idea that Gretech listens to e-sports fans but Kespa has done nothing for esports is false.
So spare me your weak attempts at sarcasm.
EDIT: Done with reading all this negativity. Proleague begins tomorrow so it's time to focus on the positives, ie. BW. Peace out.
On October 15 2010 11:32 supernovamaniac wrote: Apparently, the negotiations didn't cease
KeSPA's Twitter:
@sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^
Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^
Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion.
This is great news if this is true. It's impossible to know if it is though.
Honestly, I wouldn't believe KeSPA at this point. However, lack of news on fomos/dailyesports brings up suspicion.
I was a neutral fan until this week when people like you really just take a shit on the face of SC2 fans.
Whoever you are, please don't make yourself seem like an expert in this matter. You are obviously biased and can't get your head out of your ass to give objective viewpoints. The only claim that I want to reply is this:
2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed.
You think Kespa allows free entertainment? I along with countless fans from the U.S and Europe had to rely on Jon747 and Nevake's YT channels, TL streams from Roffles, Konadora, Solinren who would used their webcams to stream for us. A person on North America could bypass the Korean registration process to watch directly from a Korean website, but would get unwatchable laggy streams because of the foreign IP.
Korean e-sports (Kespa) never went out of their way to showcase SC1 matches outside of Korea.They provided no foreign coverage, no outreach, and made it very tough to watch games unless you live in Korea.
When GOM had their STAR invitational, it was surprising to see a production where they had a website that everybody around the world can go to and watch the matches. It even had an English speaking commentator who made it even more entertaining to watch the game.
So it makes you wonder why Kespa never had anything like this? It is because the foreign market wasn't a revenue source. They had probably five years to work on this, but they never did. They have a shitload of sponsors and they still never took the time to invest in the community outside of Korea. GOM reached out to the world in just their first tournament.
There's other issues such as GOM's current lack of sponsors, no television deal, world-wide bandwidth costs, but I'm not a fucking expert so I'm not going to worry and just enjoy watching SC2 season 1 VODs and the upcoming PHENOMENAL season 2 tournament.
As far as SC1 BW, I enjoyed it's rich legacy, but the Kespa fans really made me happy to watch BW get a slow death. It's similar to tying up an insect and pull a leg off each week. When the time comes when the head is pulled, I'll gladly remember this thread and probably laugh at all the crying fanboys.
All I can say is you're pretending to be a fan of BW if you can be turned because you disagree with someone on the internet. No fan could possibly enjoy BW "get a slow death".
On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote: Now that we're on about VODs:
"Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future."
So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument.
Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good...
Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved.
The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd.
On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote: Now that we're on about VODs:
"Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future."
So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument.
Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good...
Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved.
The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd.
Is it a foregone conclusion that just because Blizzard made the game and owns the IP for the artwork and the game that they own the rights to what people do with the game? Do they own the rights to the games played on their game?
My profession is electrical engineering, I use Matlab, Comsol, and Solidworks everyday to design motors, do those companies own my IP because I used their software to create it? I use their programs to crystalize my ideas. Flash uses BW to crystalize his ideas.
Now, should Kespa pay some money to Blizzard because they use the artwork in advertisements and they use the name? Absolutely, but Kespa also agreed to pay Blizz and Gretech money, that wasn't enough for either one.
There is the perception that Kespa is sitting there and racking in lots of money from this, they're a non-profit. They charged OGN and MBC because they needed money to support the players or to invest in the scene. Does Kespa have overpaid execs? I'm sure of it, but thats status quo. The fact of the matter is the money they make is reinvested in the Korean BW scene. If you want to blame someone for racking in money, blame OGN and MBC. Both companies get HOURS of TV programming which has a huge Korean following for essentially no money. They each have to staff and support a studio, a couple of booth girls, and a few announcers. BW makes these companies lots of money.
To the people who angrily say they ignore the foreign community, well yeah, the foreign community sucks at BW. If we were good at BW or if there were tens of thousands of foreigners dying to watch it maybe they would reach out. But that's not the case, streams here at TL used to get to a few to 10,000 people watching big matches, it just doesn't make business sense to appeal to this community. But what haven't they done? They haven't shut down our members who bring the scene to us. Currently SC2 doesn't have this problem it has great foreign exposure, as a result Gretech tries to tap that market, it makes good business sense. But you can't fault Kespa for not doing the same, BW just doesn't have foreign exposure.
Kespa has done shitty stuff in the past, they're not saints. But the fact of the matter is they want to keep the Korean BW scene alive and Gretech wants to kill it. I'll side with the group that wants to save the thing I like every time over the group who wants to see it burn.
On October 14 2010 18:46 ffreakk wrote: @ the Gretech employee guy (or so he claimed)
You ask why people think that Kespa has made any contribution to esports? Heres my perspective:
Other than the game that is played (which is merely a tool, mind), Kespa is responsible for everything there is in E-Sport today: televised Leagues, stable-salaried proteams, arena for top players (Leagues) + training ground for young aspirants (training houses, B-teams), celebrity gamers.. Take a look: + Show Spoiler +
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
It is easy to see why people like me want to have them around, because we clearly see how much they have done, and it matters to us.. They may have screwed up here and there, but from my Point of View, their accomplishments far outshine their shortcomings.
Now on the other hand, looking at what Gretech has done.. Not much, aint it? :/ And now its trying to kill off all said accomplishment, making thousands of people jobless because of a little profit, or a little pride.. Is it still hard to understand our sentiments?
Ok now I see where all the misunderstanding is coming from.
Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic. Now we run GSL which we also send out English broadcast. And you say we have contriubted nothing? well maybe we would have done more if KESPA really did care about esports.
I can give credit to OGN and MBC but not Kespa. KESPA is an organization made of representives from sponsors not gaming fans. The esports todays exists because of the players and fans who support it. All Kespa has been doing is abuse their power to earn money. They forced OGN and MBC to pay 1500million KRW to broacast SC. Now they still won't pay Blizzard its copyright and offers 300 million to have all the right to SC tournaments and broadcasting. No wonder most Korean SC fans including myself hate KESPA.
I was absolutely outraged when I read the article about what Kespa did to NaDa after he joined SC2. NaDa probably contributed to esports 1000times more than Kespa and that's how they treat him.
I'm not saying Gretech is right and Kespa is wrong because I work for GOM. There is no right and wrong in reality. But I'd rather support GOM which tries to care for global fans even though it's small and underfunded rather than Kespa which doesn't give a damn about global fans cuz most sponsors don't see any merit in it. I really wish situation hadn't come to this, causing disturbance to fans all over the world, but there seems little choice left now.
Thanks A LOT for having time to write this
On October 15 2010 11:32 supernovamaniac wrote: Apparently, the negotiations didn't cease
KeSPA's Twitter:
@sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^
Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^
Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion.
Gotta love KeSPA... Always lieing and telling bullshit about their issues (Nada losing his wins, Nada v TLO game, Blizzard and Kespa negotation)
On October 15 2010 21:10 revy wrote: My profession is electrical engineering, I use Matlab, Comsol, and Solidworks everyday to design motors, do those companies own my IP because I used their software to create it? I use their programs to crystalize my ideas. Flash uses BW to crystalize his ideas.
The bulk of your post is very good, and I mostly agree with you. A couple of things tho. All these analogies.... I think you would have to take your analogy one step further to have it apply.
You use your progams to build something for a customer, which is fine. But then you rent the customer your computer with these programs on it so they can tweak the motor themselves. That would be illegal since the programs arent yours, and are licensed to you. They may only use them to work on the motor which is their own property, but that still doesnt make it legal. What kespa does is charging tv channels for airing BW, a product which also isnt theirs. Either way, were all just painting pictures here. I dont know if kespa actually WOULD lose a court case. But the fact that theyre at least willing to negotiate to a certain degree says something.
The thing about "overpayed execs"... never underestimate the paygrade of the execs. The money involved in the deal has to afterall come from somewhere. If theyre are non-profit, they just make sure to spend them, so someones getting payed.
And lastly... I think its also a "foregone conclusion" that gretech wants to "kill" BW. I still dont buy that. I dont think Im naive about it, I just dont see SC2 replacing BW overnight if it would happen, and realistically BW should help SC2 grow over time in Korea. Thats just my assumption tho, which may in fact be completely unrealistic.
On October 14 2010 00:05 supernovamaniac wrote: Both sides knew what was coming. The biggest question that I have, however, is if Gretech knew about the opening date or not.
KeSPA had announced their prospective opening date for the new PL season as early/late as September 28th. That said, negotiations between the two sides had been going for several months prior.
Of course they did, that way, when gretech said what kespa expected them too(we are done negotiating), kespa could cry foul. It was a political maneuver.
On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote: Now that we're on about VODs:
"Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future."
So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument.
Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good...
Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved.
The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd.
My profession is electrical engineering, I use Matlab, Comsol, and Solidworks everyday to design motors, do those companies own my IP because I used their software to create it? I use their programs to crystalize my ideas. Flash uses BW to crystalize his ideas.
Because these companies have obvious interest in suing their customers... But seriously, with these programs you buy a license that lets you create things with them and turn a profit. With Starcraft, it's not the same sort of license.
There's nothing philosophically principled about it, it's just how IP Law works.
On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote: Now that we're on about VODs:
"Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future."
So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument.
Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good...
Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved.
The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd.
Is it a foregone conclusion that just because Blizzard made the game and owns the IP for the artwork and the game that they own the rights to what people do with the game? Do they own the rights to the games played on their game?
This has already been covered by someone in a previous post. When you buy a game, you are essentially buying a license to play/use the product in ways according to conditions specified by the IP holder (ToU). Next time have a look at the ToU and EULA associated with any software products you have.
On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote: Now that we're on about VODs:
Now, should Kespa pay some money to Blizzard because they use the artwork in advertisements and they use the name? Absolutely, but Kespa also agreed to pay Blizz and Gretech money, that wasn't enough for either one.
Actually, this is unlikely to be about how much money (physical form) KesPA is willing to pay. It is about Blizzard wanting to protect the image of their product brand (Starcraft). So it is about protecting the potential of their brand (Starcraft I and II) to generate revenues.
On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote: Now that we're on about VODs:
There is the perception that Kespa is sitting there and racking in lots of money from this, they're a non-profit. They charged OGN and MBC because they needed money to support the players or to invest in the scene. Does Kespa have overpaid execs? I'm sure of it, but thats status quo. The fact of the matter is the money they make is reinvested in the Korean BW scene. If you want to blame someone for racking in money, blame OGN and MBC. Both companies get HOURS of TV programming which has a huge Korean following for essentially no money. They each have to staff and support a studio, a couple of booth girls, and a few announcers. BW makes these companies lots of money.
My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization who's members are large corporations (CJ etc) that sponsor the individual teams. KesPA's board members are primarily made up of representitatives from these coporations. Naturally the interests of these corporations are the number one priority in their business operations. They are most likely not a non-profit organization which you might have been led to believe.
On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote: If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability.
If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however.
Without Proleague, Starleagues will die. Killing KeSPA *is* killing BW as a whole in the long run. I would say both motives brought up here is wrong. I'm not defending either party at this point, however.
tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have.
I want to know what Shinhan is thinking.
What else could it be, other than they convinced Shinhan Bank that they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard in court, or at least be able to drag it out for longer than a season? KeSPA might be stupid from time to time, but a major Korean bank has got to be smarter right?
You live in the US, where major american banks made tons of terribly dumb decisions and still say this?
KeSPA couldve easily delayed the season more and made Gretech out to be the bad guy to BW fans (moreso than they already are), but instead they made the poor decision to just announce it and go... ignoring Gretech.
Major sports have had delays in the past, this would be no different than these delays.
EPT
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