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On October 15 2010 07:05 broz0rs wrote:I was a neutral fan until this week when people like you really just take a shit on the face of SC2 fans. Whoever you are, please don't make yourself seem like an expert in this matter. You are obviously biased and can't get your head out of your ass to give objective viewpoints. The only claim that I want to reply is this: Show nested quote +
2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed.
You think Kespa allows free entertainment? I along with countless fans from the U.S and Europe had to rely on Jon747 and Nevake's YT channels, TL streams from Roffles, Konadora, Solinren who would used their webcams to stream for us. A person on North America could bypass the Korean registration process to watch directly from a Korean website, but would get unwatchable laggy streams because of the foreign IP. Korean e-sports (Kespa) never went out of their way to showcase SC1 matches outside of Korea.They provided no foreign coverage, no outreach, and made it very tough to watch games unless you live in Korea. When GOM had their STAR invitational, it was surprising to see a production where they had a website that everybody around the world can go to and watch the matches. It even had an English speaking commentator who made it even more entertaining to watch the game. So it makes you wonder why Kespa never had anything like this? It is because the foreign market wasn't a revenue source. They had probably five years to work on this, but they never did. They have a shitload of sponsors and they still never took the time to invest in the community outside of Korea. GOM reached out to the world in just their first tournament. There's other issues such as GOM's current lack of sponsors, no television deal, world-wide bandwidth costs, but I'm not a fucking expert so I'm not going to worry and just enjoy watching SC2 season 1 VODs and the upcoming PHENOMENAL season 2 tournament. As far as SC1 BW, I enjoyed it's rich legacy, but the Kespa fans really made me happy to watch BW get a slow death. It's similar to tying up an insect and pull a leg off each week. When the time comes when the head is pulled, I'll gladly remember this thread and probably laugh at all the crying fanboys.
All I can say is you're pretending to be a fan of BW if you can be turned because you disagree with someone on the internet. No fan could possibly enjoy BW "get a slow death".
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On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote:Now that we're on about VODs: "Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future." ^Quoted from Nukethestars Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/nukethestars?blend=1&ob=4So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument. Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good...
Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved.
The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd.
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On October 15 2010 20:26 TheRecliner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote:Now that we're on about VODs: "Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future." ^Quoted from Nukethestars Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/nukethestars?blend=1&ob=4So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument. Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good... Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved. The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd.
Is it a foregone conclusion that just because Blizzard made the game and owns the IP for the artwork and the game that they own the rights to what people do with the game? Do they own the rights to the games played on their game?
My profession is electrical engineering, I use Matlab, Comsol, and Solidworks everyday to design motors, do those companies own my IP because I used their software to create it? I use their programs to crystalize my ideas. Flash uses BW to crystalize his ideas.
Now, should Kespa pay some money to Blizzard because they use the artwork in advertisements and they use the name? Absolutely, but Kespa also agreed to pay Blizz and Gretech money, that wasn't enough for either one.
There is the perception that Kespa is sitting there and racking in lots of money from this, they're a non-profit. They charged OGN and MBC because they needed money to support the players or to invest in the scene. Does Kespa have overpaid execs? I'm sure of it, but thats status quo. The fact of the matter is the money they make is reinvested in the Korean BW scene. If you want to blame someone for racking in money, blame OGN and MBC. Both companies get HOURS of TV programming which has a huge Korean following for essentially no money. They each have to staff and support a studio, a couple of booth girls, and a few announcers. BW makes these companies lots of money.
To the people who angrily say they ignore the foreign community, well yeah, the foreign community sucks at BW. If we were good at BW or if there were tens of thousands of foreigners dying to watch it maybe they would reach out. But that's not the case, streams here at TL used to get to a few to 10,000 people watching big matches, it just doesn't make business sense to appeal to this community. But what haven't they done? They haven't shut down our members who bring the scene to us. Currently SC2 doesn't have this problem it has great foreign exposure, as a result Gretech tries to tap that market, it makes good business sense. But you can't fault Kespa for not doing the same, BW just doesn't have foreign exposure.
Kespa has done shitty stuff in the past, they're not saints. But the fact of the matter is they want to keep the Korean BW scene alive and Gretech wants to kill it. I'll side with the group that wants to save the thing I like every time over the group who wants to see it burn.
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On October 15 2010 01:29 JunkkaGom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 18:46 ffreakk wrote:@ the Gretech employee guy (or so he claimed) You ask why people think that Kespa has made any contribution to esports? Heres my perspective: Other than the game that is played (which is merely a tool, mind), Kespa is responsible for everything there is in E-Sport today: televised Leagues, stable-salaried proteams, arena for top players (Leagues) + training ground for young aspirants (training houses, B-teams), celebrity gamers.. Take a look: + Show Spoiler +It is easy to see why people like me want to have them around, because we clearly see how much they have done, and it matters to us.. They may have screwed up here and there, but from my Point of View, their accomplishments far outshine their shortcomings. Now on the other hand, looking at what Gretech has done.. Not much, aint it? :/ And now its trying to kill off all said accomplishment, making thousands of people jobless because of a little profit, or a little pride.. Is it still hard to understand our sentiments? Ok now I see where all the misunderstanding is coming from. Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic. Now we run GSL which we also send out English broadcast. And you say we have contriubted nothing? well maybe we would have done more if KESPA really did care about esports. I can give credit to OGN and MBC but not Kespa. KESPA is an organization made of representives from sponsors not gaming fans. The esports todays exists because of the players and fans who support it. All Kespa has been doing is abuse their power to earn money. They forced OGN and MBC to pay 1500million KRW to broacast SC. Now they still won't pay Blizzard its copyright and offers 300 million to have all the right to SC tournaments and broadcasting. No wonder most Korean SC fans including myself hate KESPA. I was absolutely outraged when I read the article about what Kespa did to NaDa after he joined SC2. NaDa probably contributed to esports 1000times more than Kespa and that's how they treat him. I'm not saying Gretech is right and Kespa is wrong because I work for GOM. There is no right and wrong in reality. But I'd rather support GOM which tries to care for global fans even though it's small and underfunded rather than Kespa which doesn't give a damn about global fans cuz most sponsors don't see any merit in it. I really wish situation hadn't come to this, causing disturbance to fans all over the world, but there seems little choice left now.
Thanks A LOT for having time to write this 
On October 15 2010 11:32 supernovamaniac wrote:
Apparently, the negotiations didn't cease
KeSPA's Twitter:
@sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^
Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^
Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion.
Gotta love KeSPA... Always lieing and telling bullshit about their issues (Nada losing his wins, Nada v TLO game, Blizzard and Kespa negotation)
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On October 15 2010 21:10 revy wrote:
My profession is electrical engineering, I use Matlab, Comsol, and Solidworks everyday to design motors, do those companies own my IP because I used their software to create it? I use their programs to crystalize my ideas. Flash uses BW to crystalize his ideas.
The bulk of your post is very good, and I mostly agree with you. A couple of things tho. All these analogies.... I think you would have to take your analogy one step further to have it apply.
You use your progams to build something for a customer, which is fine. But then you rent the customer your computer with these programs on it so they can tweak the motor themselves. That would be illegal since the programs arent yours, and are licensed to you. They may only use them to work on the motor which is their own property, but that still doesnt make it legal. What kespa does is charging tv channels for airing BW, a product which also isnt theirs. Either way, were all just painting pictures here. I dont know if kespa actually WOULD lose a court case. But the fact that theyre at least willing to negotiate to a certain degree says something.
The thing about "overpayed execs"... never underestimate the paygrade of the execs.
The money involved in the deal has to afterall come from somewhere. If theyre are non-profit, they just make sure to spend them, so someones getting payed.
And lastly... I think its also a "foregone conclusion" that gretech wants to "kill" BW. I still dont buy that. I dont think Im naive about it, I just dont see SC2 replacing BW overnight if it would happen, and realistically BW should help SC2 grow over time in Korea. Thats just my assumption tho, which may in fact be completely unrealistic.
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On October 14 2010 00:08 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 00:05 supernovamaniac wrote:
Both sides knew what was coming. The biggest question that I have, however, is if Gretech knew about the opening date or not.
KeSPA had announced their prospective opening date for the new PL season as early/late as September 28th. That said, negotiations between the two sides had been going for several months prior.
Of course they did, that way, when gretech said what kespa expected them too(we are done negotiating), kespa could cry foul. It was a political maneuver.
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On October 15 2010 21:10 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 20:26 TheRecliner wrote:On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote:Now that we're on about VODs: "Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future." ^Quoted from Nukethestars Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/nukethestars?blend=1&ob=4So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument. Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good... Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved. The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd. My profession is electrical engineering, I use Matlab, Comsol, and Solidworks everyday to design motors, do those companies own my IP because I used their software to create it? I use their programs to crystalize my ideas. Flash uses BW to crystalize his ideas.
Because these companies have obvious interest in suing their customers... But seriously, with these programs you buy a license that lets you create things with them and turn a profit. With Starcraft, it's not the same sort of license.
There's nothing philosophically principled about it, it's just how IP Law works.
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On October 15 2010 22:37 AyJay wrote:
Gotta love KeSPA... Always lieing and telling bullshit about their issues (Nada losing his wins, Nada v TLO game, Blizzard and Kespa negotation)
Don't call BS on something that isn't 100% proved yet.
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On October 15 2010 21:10 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 20:26 TheRecliner wrote:On October 15 2010 18:59 Ryo wrote:Now that we're on about VODs: "Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future." ^Quoted from Nukethestars Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/nukethestars?blend=1&ob=4So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument. Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good... Welcome to the real world. In the real world "listening to fans/customers/whatever" is not the same as "how to run a business". The two are NOT mutually exclusive, but there ARE boundaries involved. The lack of understanding in this thread regarding what IP and copyright is and why it exists, is just appalling. Getting something for free rocks and wanting to let KESPA go on as they are even tho they are selling Blizzards IP is fine. You want what you like and you dont want the boat rocked. Everyone understands that. But a line was crossed and hating Blizzard over it is absurd. Is it a foregone conclusion that just because Blizzard made the game and owns the IP for the artwork and the game that they own the rights to what people do with the game? Do they own the rights to the games played on their game?
This has already been covered by someone in a previous post. When you buy a game, you are essentially buying a license to play/use the product in ways according to conditions specified by the IP holder (ToU). Next time have a look at the ToU and EULA associated with any software products you have.
QUOTE]On October 15 2010 21:10 revy wrote:
On October 15 2010 20:26 TheRecliner wrote:Now, should Kespa pay some money to Blizzard because they use the artwork in advertisements and they use the name? Absolutely, but Kespa also agreed to pay Blizz and Gretech money, that wasn't enough for either one.
Actually, this is unlikely to be about how much money (physical form) KesPA is willing to pay. It is about Blizzard wanting to protect the image of their product brand (Starcraft). So it is about protecting the potential of their brand (Starcraft I and II) to generate revenues.
QUOTE]On October 15 2010 21:10 revy wrote:
On October 15 2010 20:26 TheRecliner wrote:There is the perception that Kespa is sitting there and racking in lots of money from this, they're a non-profit. They charged OGN and MBC because they needed money to support the players or to invest in the scene. Does Kespa have overpaid execs? I'm sure of it, but thats status quo. The fact of the matter is the money they make is reinvested in the Korean BW scene. If you want to blame someone for racking in money, blame OGN and MBC. Both companies get HOURS of TV programming which has a huge Korean following for essentially no money. They each have to staff and support a studio, a couple of booth girls, and a few announcers. BW makes these companies lots of money.
My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization who's members are large corporations (CJ etc) that sponsor the individual teams. KesPA's board members are primarily made up of representitatives from these coporations. Naturally the interests of these corporations are the number one priority in their business operations. They are most likely not a non-profit organization which you might have been led to believe.
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On October 14 2010 00:24 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 00:21 Milkis wrote:On October 14 2010 00:15 Waxangel wrote:On October 14 2010 00:12 supernovamaniac wrote:
If my pro-KeSPA speculations are true, then Gretech probably delayed the negotiations up until this point where they can basically 'pull out' of the negotiations in a favorable fashion without making fans think that Gretech wants to kill-off BW
I'm not saying that this is the case (my views are neutral in this case), but it is a probability. If we had to speculate about Gretech's motives, I think it's more plausible to say they want KeSPA and MBCGame to die, but not BW as a whole. They successfully negotiated with OGN for the OSL last season, which shows they don't mind BW tournaments. I'm curious as to what specific demands on either side caused the MBCGame and KeSPA negotiation failures, however. Without Proleague, Starleagues will die. Killing KeSPA *is* killing BW as a whole in the long run. I would say both motives brought up here is wrong. I'm not defending either party at this point, however. tbh announcing the move is a bad move on KeSPA's part. I don't know what they're scheming but seriously I hope it's not the "like we can't beat some game company in court" attitude they're rumored to have. I want to know what Shinhan is thinking. What else could it be, other than they convinced Shinhan Bank that they're gonna wipe the floor with Blizzard in court, or at least be able to drag it out for longer than a season? KeSPA might be stupid from time to time, but a major Korean bank has got to be smarter right?
You live in the US, where major american banks made tons of terribly dumb decisions and still say this?
KeSPA couldve easily delayed the season more and made Gretech out to be the bad guy to BW fans (moreso than they already are), but instead they made the poor decision to just announce it and go... ignoring Gretech.
Major sports have had delays in the past, this would be no different than these delays.
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