EPTI'm sorry, but getting tasteless fired was a dick move. Who hates tasteless? How can you?
KeSPA-Gretech cease negotiations - Page 16
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
I'm sorry, but getting tasteless fired was a dick move. Who hates tasteless? How can you? | ||
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
On October 15 2010 05:06 ffreakk wrote: TL;DR I was a neutral fan until this week when people like you really just take a shit on the face of SC2 fans. Whoever you are, please don't make yourself seem like an expert in this matter. You are obviously biased and can't get your head out of your ass to give objective viewpoints. The only claim that I want to reply is this: 2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed. You think Kespa allows free entertainment? I along with countless fans from the U.S and Europe had to rely on Jon747 and Nevake's YT channels, TL streams from Roffles, Konadora, Solinren who would used their webcams to stream for us. A person on North America could bypass the Korean registration process to watch directly from a Korean website, but would get unwatchable laggy streams because of the foreign IP. Korean e-sports (Kespa) never went out of their way to showcase SC1 matches outside of Korea.They provided no foreign coverage, no outreach, and made it very tough to watch games unless you live in Korea. When GOM had their STAR invitational, it was surprising to see a production where they had a website that everybody around the world can go to and watch the matches. It even had an English speaking commentator who made it even more entertaining to watch the game. So it makes you wonder why Kespa never had anything like this? It is because the foreign market wasn't a revenue source. They had probably five years to work on this, but they never did. They have a shitload of sponsors and they still never took the time to invest in the community outside of Korea. GOM reached out to the world in just their first tournament. There's other issues such as GOM's current lack of sponsors, no television deal, world-wide bandwidth costs, but I'm not a fucking expert so I'm not going to worry and just enjoy watching SC2 season 1 VODs and the upcoming PHENOMENAL season 2 tournament. As far as SC1 BW, I enjoyed it's rich legacy, but the Kespa fans really made me happy to watch BW get a slow death. It's similar to tying up an insect and pull a leg off each week. When the time comes when the head is pulled, I'll gladly remember this thread and probably laugh at all the crying fanboys. | ||
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Wahmoo
Australia3 Posts
On October 15 2010 04:09 MassAirUnits wrote: A lot of folks like to point out that the laws in Korea are different/might be different from what westerners are familiar with, so posts such as yours are more like assumptions from a western perspective. If you are indeed a law educator, would you mind bringing to light if that logic is flawed (for example if KesPA are violating internationally accepted IP laws or if Korea's laws should already be favorable for Blizzard). I think more than likely, the same set of principles apply in any IP laws with some variations (perhaps), regardless of the country (US or Korea). The laws generally favour (protect) the IP holders in any case. If this does go down this path, it will be done according to the full extent of the laws in that country. So the fact that this is happening in korea or as someone has put it that KesPA has government backing etc, would not change the outcome. If this were to happen, I wouldn't bank on KesPA winning. I think the bottom line is that GOMTV has exclusive broadcasting rights to Starcraft. KesPA should not have force started the PL season at all. | ||
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FishForThought
Canada88 Posts
On October 15 2010 05:06 ffreakk wrote: Now, for that old case of GOMTV Classic. The version i heard was a little different. Kespa allowed GOMTV Classics to broadcast its show for two seasons, this much is fact. Now from what i have heard, the rating for your show is rather low, resulting in little to no prestige to be won from participating in your tournaments. Slowly, team started to pull players out for this same reason (wasting time to train for a tourney that doesnt matter is simply bad, players had their schedule full with PL, MSL, OSL).. Feel free to confirm/deny as i too believe that there is more than one side to a story. Now you may say that you are trying to help, and care for the fans.. But we (i) short-sighted fan(s) can only see whats immediately in front of us, so you would have to pardon me for being unable to see the big picture that you painted.. But as far as i can see: 1/ Kespa provides better entertainment (Brood War is the superior game, in my (along with many others) opinion. 2/ Kespa provides free entertainment. Free seating to live matches, free stream, free VoD. Gretech tried to charge us $50 to watch stream/VoD. And only reduce the price after a mountain of complaints. It is still not free. Given your attempt to rip us off, i personally find it difficult to believe that Gretech deeply cares for its fans, and is the "better guy" than Kespa as you portrayed. 1/ is debatable, but 2/ is pure fact. Not to mention, you conveniently ignoring Blizz's 6 demands to Kespa (we all know what those 6 were) . I would love to see how you argue your way into making Blizz sound reasonable on those terms. 1. Define "superior". Larger skill curve does not make it better, otherwise everyone would be playing text based chess. Nubs won't know the annotations and anyone less than experienced won't be able to visualize each move significance. 2. Basically, you have Gretech who listens to fans requests and lowered their pricing and provided free live stream globally vs Kespa who don't listen to fans or reach out to global fans but provide free vods and streams only in Korea. Which one do you think is better? 3. How do you expect Blizzard to be reasonable with Kespa, when kespa does publicity stunts like breaking NDA. The whole point of negotiation is to negotiate, you give and take. If you start breaking NDAs and put your negotiating partner in a poor position (in terms of publicity and negotiation stance), then there is no reason for them to be reasonable with you. Which is really why things broke down. | ||
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bluesoup
Macedonia107 Posts
On October 15 2010 06:43 ffreakk wrote: 2 among 11 teams did not participate, and you blamed them for boycott? It is your words that teams gradually pulled from GOMTV tournament, which is inaccurate. Only teams that pulled from the tournament are two mentioned above. The rest were bullied by KeSPA. Believe what you would like.... It also fact that KeSPA did not pull the plug on TLO vs NaDa show-match. They publicly stated so! It was just WeMade Fox team orders... And that NaDa played without consulting his team first... Yet, there is a rumor about WeMade SC2 team... And WeMade WC3 pros qualifying into GSL... Again, believe what you would like... I think it is about time some Koreans woke up and shed some light on us foreigners... Comparing IP-TV only delivery station (GOM) and Cable TV station ratings is like comparing applelords and bananlisks... err, i digress... Maybe do a check on OGN/MBC online viewer ratings and compare that to GOM... But it is irrelevant, isn't it ? I am an old fanboy. If Boxer switched to WC4, i will watch and probably love that. I do not give a damn about KeSPA daily politics... However, KeSPA trying to block everything that does not suit their current (fiscal) situation, well, lets just say it doesn't make me KeSPA fan... And last but not least, I believe that professionals play primarily for money, not ratings, glory, etc... If glory, ratings can be converted to money than they will play for glory... There was money to be had in GOM, even if TV ratings were low. Or you believe Boxer, NaDa, Effort, July switched to SC2/GSL just for the GOM GSL ratings ? | ||
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JayDee_
548 Posts
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aru
183 Posts
On October 15 2010 06:53 Kazeyonoma wrote: threatening to revoke progamer licenses if they participated in GoM Classic is about as boycotting a move you can do, not to mention a douche move to a company that was trying to broadcast the SCBW scene outward to the global market. They never threatened to revoke progamer licenses for the GOM series. If they did, 5 of the teams that said they would participate in season 4 never would have. On October 15 2010 07:05 broz0rs wrote: You think Kespa allows free entertainment? I along with countless fans from the U.S and Europe had to rely on Jon747 and Nevake's YT channels, TL streams from Roffles, Konadora, Solinren who would used their webcams to stream for us. A person on North America could bypass the Korean registration process to watch directly from a Korean website, but would get unwatchable laggy streams because of the foreign IP. Kespa didn't send copyright infringement notices to Youtube about Jon747's BW and SC2 vods; can't say the same about other people. It wasn't because of the foreign IP, but bad Internet--you make it sound like they went out of their way to throttle foreign IPs. There are a lot of people in NA who can watch the Korean streams just fine. On October 15 2010 07:24 FishForThought wrote: 2. Basically, you have Gretech who listens to fans requests and lowered their pricing and provided free live stream globally vs Kespa who don't listen to fans or reach out to global fans but provide free vods and streams only in Korea. Which one do you think is better? The Gretech stream is not strictly free. You have to download the GOM Player, which is ad supported and Gretech's primary source of revenue. On October 15 2010 07:36 bluesoup wrote: It is your words that teams gradually pulled from GOMTV tournament, which is inaccurate. Only teams that pulled from the tournament are two mentioned above. The rest were bullied by KeSPA. Believe what you would like.... SKT wasn't in season 3, and Estro was never in the tournaments. More teams pulled out of Season 4 (all but 5) and Gretech canceled the tournament. It would be inaccurate to say "the rest were bullied by Kespa." At best, it would be "some" since it was only 3 more teams. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3048 Posts
KeSPA's Twitter: @sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^ Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^ Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 15 2010 09:25 aru wrote: They never threatened to revoke progamer licenses for the GOM series. If they did, 5 of the teams that said they would participate in season 4 never would have. Kespa didn't send copyright infringement notices to Youtube about Jon747's BW and SC2 vods; can't say the same about other people. It wasn't because of the foreign IP, but bad Internet--you make it sound like they went out of their way to throttle foreign IPs. There are a lot of people in NA who can watch the Korean streams just fine. The Gretech stream is not strictly free. You have to download the GOM Player, which is ad supported and Gretech's primary source of revenue. SKT wasn't in season 3, and Estro was never in the tournaments. More teams pulled out of Season 4 (all but 5) and Gretech canceled the tournament. It would be inaccurate to say "the rest were bullied by Kespa." At best, it would be "some" since it was only 3 more teams. I'm sorry but you got one story from KeSPA, and you believed it 100%. Now you're getting the other side of the story from GOM and you're doubting it? What ignorance is that especially knowing KeSPA twists shit around all the time? Who's your source saying they never threatened to revoke progaming licenses? They're doing it now for anyone who wants to try SC2, why is it impossible for them to have done it before? Here we have a direct source from Korea (I love that GOM actually interacts with international fans) and you're turning a blind eye for no reason at all. KeSPA technically had/has no rights to BW, so sending copywrite to Youtube may or may not have gotten it removed. They'd have to prove they have the rights, which isn't really something they can do atm. The only reason we, the foreign community, got BW VOD's was because of the dedicated fans who recorded, downloaded, and uploaded them for us. Note: Fans =/= KeSPA. The GOM player is 100% free. It's also a really great media player that I use for pretty much everything. (except music, that stays on iTunes.) Saying it's run on ads is a stretch. None of the free stream gets interrupted by ads, in fact we get extra content during those times such as player interviews. The only thing I could possibly attach your claim to is the small non animated section that links to Norton and that doesn't appear in fullscreen. I'm not sure where you get your information from. Source Image I for one, as a long time BW fan since the ages of Boxer when I was 11, quite enjoy the way GOM has appealed to us. I love the fact that they've proven they take our advice and work to better their services for us. As an international fan, I feel appreciated. The irrational hate for GOM around these parts simply because of support for KeSPA is stupid. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On October 15 2010 11:32 supernovamaniac wrote: Apparently, the negotiations didn't cease KeSPA's Twitter: @sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^ Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^ Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion. It's pretty shocking that this made the front page of TL as news then. That blog about the Korean government v Blizzard was suspicious, but no one touted it as fact. This felt like fact, at least to me. Scary! | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
http://www.ongamenet.com/vod/vodMain.ogn?VodType=Total | ||
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saturns2k
United States19 Posts
It's quite funny how American(foreign) fans want KeSPA to win, while actual Korean fans do not wish KeSPA to win. Maybe you American(foreign) fans don't give a crap but just to watch more game, but for Korean fans know what KeSPA did, their numerous mistake, and selling broadcasting right is one of the major ones. It's funny to see that Korean fans actually want American company's right protected, while American fans are actually against to protect American company's right. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
With every Korean guy that support Gretech in this forums, i could pull out another Korean guy if not more who would have Kespa win.. In our (my) opinion, they provide the better game with better maps, better players.. So we want more such games, nothing difficult to understand about that yes? I also appreciate them for making progamer a viable job, and good players get stable salary income, as opposed to the unstable nature of price-hunting (top RTS players like JulyZerg, Tester, Spirit_Moon all failed to qualify for GSL 2 relatively recently, no?).. And of course, Blizz made great games  i was a big fan of all their titles up till before SC2.. | ||
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aru
183 Posts
On October 15 2010 11:54 xBillehx wrote: The GOM player is 100% free. It's also a really great media player that I use for pretty much everything. (except music, that stays on iTunes.) Saying it's run on ads is a stretch. None of the free stream gets interrupted by ads, in fact we get extra content during those times such as player interviews. The only thing I could possibly attach your claim to is the small non animated section that links to Norton and that doesn't appear in fullscreen. I'm not sure where you get your information from. Source Image Is the Korean version of the GOM Player suddenly not the GOM Player anymore? Just because they haven't found advertisers for the English version, doesn't mean that the player itself is not ad supported. The function is built into the player to display ads. | ||
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lastreason
Romania250 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
"Jon747 was suspended because he uploaded videos that violated American copyrights thrice, two from Gretech way back when, and one from WCG. I don't think the blame should fall on WCG. They have a Youtube and Baezzi (for some reason) decided to put that stuff on his channel. I don't think they knew their copyright notice would end Baezzi's channel. Gretech is the much greater evil in this regard, because their second copyright notice to Baezzi involved videos that (I believe) he had already removed. And now that Gretech has a stake in OGN... I wouldn't put it past them to send a notice for my channel either, even though it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than making people angry. But hey, that's a company for ya! At this point, I'd say it's almost an inevitability that my channel will become more generally about video games sometime in the future." ^Quoted from Nukethestars Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/nukethestars?blend=1&ob=4 So please don't give me the "Gretech listens to e-sports fans and Kespa has contributed nothing to esports" argument. Why does everything have to be in English for it to be good... | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
@Ryo: Please, that channel got suspended because it violated Youtube's ToS. If something is uploaded without the rights to it, the owners have every right to request it's removal. (Note that's all they really do, request it's removal.) Youtube removes them and Youtube warns the account, it's their own rules. If you want to be mad at someone for that be mad at Youtube for imposing a three strike policy that's obviously unfair. You make it seem like Gretech was out for blood to shut all the old BW videos down, so forgive me if I forgot my tinfoil hat. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On October 15 2010 11:32 supernovamaniac wrote: Apparently, the negotiations didn't cease KeSPA's Twitter: @sleeping0ju 협상결렬 아닙니다. 양측 모두 협상을 위해 노력하고 있고, 어느 쪽도 협상결렬을 표명한 바 없습니다. 공식적인 발표가 없는 상황에서 속단하지 마시고, 조금 더 기다려주세요. ^^ Translation: The negotiations didn't cease. Both sides are working hard to solve out the issue, and both sides never said or hinted at stopping the negotiation. Don't be fooled by unofficial announcements, and please wait a little more ^^ Also, there was never an official announcement from fomos nor edailysport that the negotiations ceased. They would have covered the story by now if this was confirmed to be true. Taking few days, however, raises suspicion. This is great news if this is true. It's impossible to know if it is though.  | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
On October 15 2010 19:19 xBillehx wrote: @Ryo: Please, that channel got suspended because it violated Youtube's ToS. If something is uploaded without the rights to it, the owners have every right to request it's removal. (Note that's all they really do, request it's removal.) Youtube removes them and Youtube warns the account, it's their own rules. If you want to be mad at someone for that be mad at Youtube for imposing a three strike policy that's obviously unfair. You make it seem like Gretech was out for blood to shut all the old BW videos down, so forgive me if I forgot my tinfoil hat. If you had read the quote properly, you'd have noticed that 1. He was issued a notice for videos he had already removed. 2. Never have I ever said anything close to "Gretech was out for blood to shut all the old BW videos down" in any of my posts. What I did point out is that this idea that Gretech listens to e-sports fans but Kespa has done nothing for esports is false. So spare me your weak attempts at sarcasm. EDIT: Done with reading all this negativity. Proleague begins tomorrow so it's time to focus on the positives, ie. BW. Peace out. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3048 Posts
On October 15 2010 19:35 Holgerius wrote: This is great news if this is true. It's impossible to know if it is though. Honestly, I wouldn't believe KeSPA at this point. However, lack of news on fomos/dailyesports brings up suspicion. | ||
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