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On October 08 2010 03:49 RickyKo wrote:
this is really messed up, now protoss has to make a pylon, terran has to make a supply depot, but zerg can still 6 pool w/o making another overlord?
My god! You're right! There is no way protoss can survive vs 6 pool on steppes after the 5 second nerf. And now with the supply depot > barracks requirement, even terran won't stand a ghost of a chance.
/sarcasm off
Unlike terran and protoss, zerg has no ability to turtle on one base or have a wall off. It would make sense that to make up for this lack of defense, that it would be the race that could be agressive in the early game.
Alas. This is all comparing apples to pears. The only thing this will hinder is extremely early barracks play, which like 6 pool is a complete all in and can basically only be succesfull against FE builds. I won't weep for the loss of those builds.
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And suddenly every TvT goes 16 CC. Every ZvT 15 hatch, and every PvT 14-16 nex.
Which honestly isn't so bad.
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On October 08 2010 03:56 TeWy wrote:They already are at the highest level.
shut up... god..
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On October 08 2010 03:47 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:45 travis wrote:On October 08 2010 03:37 iEchoic wrote:
Reaper and hellion openings aren't going to do it, and we know that an unpressured Zerg is an incredibly hard Zerg to stop. while im not too sure i like the changes (primarily the supply depot first change) - what exactly about this will stop hellions from being very effective to put pressure on z early game? they'll just go from being INSANELY effective to "an effective way to pressure as an opening" The thing about hellion opening is that it's vulnerable to roach counter-pressure. Currently you have a timeframe where you can hold this off by microing the hellions to kill the roaches as they move across the map, which is the deterrent against this pressure. If hellions get hit when they try to take shots at the roaches (because of range buff), this will no longer be possible, and you'll get rolled by a roach push. See TLO vs Losira GSL Game 1 for an example.
I think hellion harassment should have some sort drawback to it. As it stands now, you'd have to be pretty outclassed in micro compared to your opponent to not at least recoup some of your hellion investment in drone kills. Furthermore, hellion harassment is often a side-benefit of the other tech you're pursuing -- you were going banshees anyway and already had the factory so why not, etc. etc...
With 4-range roaches, you're at least in a position as Zerg to punish this sort of teching Terran. I think everybody in SC2 has gotten used to the idea that the wall-off shouldn't be able to be broken or circumvented by a Zerg at least until lair tech. I personally think that if you decide to tech to banshees with minimal defenses (i.e., hellions and no marauders), you should rightfully be vulnerable to a roach push when scouted.
Look at how vulnerable 1-base muta is or hatch-before-pool is. There's this window where you've spent money on units but your opponent spent money on expanding/tech and has a considerably smaller army, and if you don't exploit it, it SHOULD put you at a disadvantage.
Right now, it's harder for Zerg to put a teching Terran or Protoss at a disadvantage even when he scouts the tech correctly and in time as opposed to the reverse of that situation, limiting the options of Zerg early game (because some options -- counterpressure, for example -- often just aren't viable).
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Oh man all the Terran QQ brings tears of joy to my soul. Its about time somebody besides Zerg players started QQing. Perhaps the top 100 diamond will have less than 50% Terran now, imagine that.
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these changes are all wrong, it would be enough to increase roach range last patch and leave reaper & bunker build time as they were but to do both AND add even more shit to terran just means blizzard doesn't know what they are doing, also they are completely missing the problems vs protoss where zerg can't do shit against toss armies unless they have ultralisks <.<
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United States7166 Posts
i dont agree in the slightest that hellion builds are "useless" now (they just cant be used as the main defense against roach attacks) but even if they were, it's not like terran doesnt have a million other strong early game openers/harass/aggression/all-ins vs zerg
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On October 08 2010 03:57 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:20 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Wow according to browder's stats, zerg is overpowered vs terran in all leagues! This does not surprise me actually. Think about it the people who are in diamond today are not the same people that were there a week after sc2 went live. So if during a specific week during the ladder I play 45% tvp 40% tvt and 15% tvz then obviously the terran player isn't going to have as much practice at fighting against zerg other than watching replays of other people doing it.
Uh at 1400 diamond I play 50% tvz (not hyperbole). And yes, I lose more than half of them.
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I think alot of you Terrans complaining about never using Reapers once this change goes into effect are forgettig that Reapers can climb cliffs. If your'e playing Z or T that walls off, a Reaper is still the fastest way to get into the main. Waiting for a Factory and a Starport is snoozefest. In effect they'll become what they should have always been - a supporter type of unit, not the game-ender they are early on right now.
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Everyone keeps complaining about the depot requirement because their cheese pressure build is getting nerfed. I'm a terran player and have never built a rax before a depot with the intention of cheesing. I've never once proxied or any of that nonsense so I'm glad it will be gone.
I am, however, more worried about small maps. On maps like Steppes, my standard build included rax before depot in order to stop 8 pool or proxy zealots. I imagine it will be much more difficult to stop these cheese builds if they do actually make the depot a requirement for rax.
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On October 08 2010 03:13 Phrencys wrote:
I can't see the "depot first" thing go live. It's simply too game breaking, and more importantly not needed at all.
Nerfing Nitro Packs make sense, because as it stands now, it basically comes by default because you let the upgrade completes while building up your Reapers raid.
But factory requirement is overboard IMO. By the point at which you get a factory, people rarely keep building reapers. Perhaps Blizzard foresees that the metagame will evolve into players making mid-late game reaper raids ?
If anything, the only thing I'd do for Terran upgrades is make Conc Shell and Nitro Packs cost 100/100 and take 120sec to research. Unless they plan to give a mid-game use for Reapers, making Nitro Packs require factory will basically make the unit unused.
completely agree with this. they might as well make the 2nd ovie be a requirement for spawning pool too :/
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On October 08 2010 01:16 Woony wrote:
Oh and guys, these aren't the final changes and it will be ATLEAST one or two months until the next patch, so these changes aren't set in stone. No reason to freak out.
I almost always play devil's advocate for Blizz, but considering last time we said the same thing when they announced changes (don't worry, there will be more) and it turned out to be it, well, yes I would say there's reason for people to make their voices heard.
My thoughts:
Roach range: good, I've been suggesting this forever
Building HP: Makes sense, harder for Marauders to snipe tech
Supply Depot->Rax: Poorly thought out, basically nerfs Terran early game hugely both in balance and dynamics, with the reasoning to nerf ONE unit
Nitro Packs: I will be very surprised if we ever see a Reaper again, outside of maybe one delayed reaper for scouting once in a while
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On October 08 2010 02:18 gotterdammerung wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:14 accaris wrote:
Think cannon rushing and/or void ray cheese is contributing to higher Protoss wins in lower leagues? Or maybe because Protoss macro is easier to master? nah those units arent the problem, its colussus high templar and the warpgate sick army replenish speed.
I disagree, high templar are not used that much in the lower league, because for allot of these people its too hard to micro them. Yesterday i played vs a terran (gold league) and he said it was the first time he ever played faced high templar, he had only like 100 1v1 games played but still.
I just got into gold league this week, with about 500 games played. Yeah i know, i have no tallent whatsoever for this game. But i can tell you i faced sooooo many canon rush. I didnt know how to beat this at first and it was autolose every time until i learned, after i learned i would stil lose to this because i would not scout my own base ever, now i dont lose to this very much unless i forgot to scout my base and i happen sometime because im still bad. I bet protoss %win would drop afair amount if you didnt account for cannon rush win and void ray too.
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On October 08 2010 03:58 Tachion wrote:
To the people worrying about the hellions vs roach, is a 1 range difference not enough to hit the roaches without being hit back(assuming roach range is changed to 4)? What other units are there that this can even be tested against?
Hellions can very barely do it now. They have a timed animation where they have to stop to fire. Roaches move enough in that duration that they will get a shot off, I'm sure of it.
On October 08 2010 03:58 Floophead_III wrote:
I just don't see how changing roach range changes anything ZvT. Bunkers and tanks will still outrange roach, and will still be the proper defense. Wallins still will stop them. Marauders don't even need to kite to slaughter roach.
Nobody has a problem killing roaches straight-up lategame, the problem is that there's no way to stop roach pressure now besides very early marauders. You won't be able to kite them to your base and all terran builds will have to be adjusted to have early marauders.
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Roach range increase is not going to be fair to hellions. As frustrating as hellions kiting roaches can be, I have to admit that I liked that they were one of the last genuine micro units.
I'd really like to see fungal growth do bonus damage to shields. I think it would help Z significantly late against P. As it stands I rarely get infestors vs P because of blink and shields.
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Man, I really needed the fungal change.
For some reason, up until recently, I thought that fungal did stop blink, and did not hesitate to fungal a group of stalkers in battle. That was a costly mistake.
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Fantastic news, funny how the zerg posters have been flamed for so long that they suggest P/T buffs to justify these changes.
This proves we were right about zerg and balance, oh im gonna read all pages of this thread while drinking beer and terran tears.
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On October 08 2010 04:00 Zelniq wrote:it's not like terran doesnt have a million other strong early game openers/harass/aggression/all-ins vs zerg
What other early game aggression is there besides reapers and hellions?
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On October 08 2010 03:58 ffdestiny wrote:
So their statistics point to an overwhelming Protoss imbalance in almost all match-ups, and then they nerf Terran? I seriously just had to break out in pathetic laughter.
49.6 percent win for protoss vs terran, truely overwhelmingly protoss favoured.
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My disposition towards Blizzard's balance competence is uncertain, but hopeful. The reaper crap needs to be put to rest.
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EPT
