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On October 08 2010 03:49 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:47 iEchoic wrote:On October 08 2010 03:45 travis wrote:On October 08 2010 03:37 iEchoic wrote:
Reaper and hellion openings aren't going to do it, and we know that an unpressured Zerg is an incredibly hard Zerg to stop. while im not too sure i like the changes (primarily the supply depot first change) - what exactly about this will stop hellions from being very effective to put pressure on z early game? they'll just go from being INSANELY effective to "an effective way to pressure as an opening" The thing about hellion opening is that it's vulnerable to roach counter-pressure. Currently you have a timeframe where you can hold this off by microing the hellions to kill the roaches as they move across the map, which is the deterrent against this pressure. If hellions get hit when they try to take shots at the roaches (because of range buff), this will no longer be possible, and you'll get rolled by a roach push. See TLO vs Losira GSL Game 1 for an example. TLO though does hellions -> cc -> 2 more factories -> more hellions I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to just... transition faster.
Yeah, that is a pretty big stretch. The only way to stop it would be marauders (you can't get banshees out in time to stop roaches from doing huge damage, I've tried), which would completely throw a wrench in his build and ruin his FE, all while doing no economic damage or harassment.
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I think the reapers will need some kind of buff to make them useful late game after this. It seems to make the extremely niche units and they'll need some new use to stay relevant. Maybe allow their grenades to be used on massive units so they could be kept as special forces units for sniping colossi from the flank if the terran keeps to bio.
Oh well I really like the roach range increase. It will let them to counter mass marine rushes like they were supposed to and force protoss to get immortals again to truly counter them instead of just stalkers.
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On October 08 2010 03:40 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:39 Licmyobelisk wrote:
so how those the depo+rax requirement going to work? you make a depo burrow that shit then put a barracks on top of that? how does the rax-factory or the factory-starport requirement work? you put them on each other? The sad thing is that half the posters, if not more, still think every barracks will use up some corresponding supply depot....
Dustin should have clarified he means requirement in the tech tree, just so people don't overreact prematurely.
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depot needed for barracks...and reaper upgrade in factory...maybe siege mode in fusion core? or marine stim in starport? No thats too imba, stim in factory sounds gud.
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Just a big nono to the depot requirement.
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Oh my god this can't be real. I'm so happy. Blizzard finally show some love to us Zerg player. Depot requirement is a little harsh. But I'm curious to see how the BO of Terran going to be like now. Maybe it might solve the root of all imbalance?: D
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On October 08 2010 03:51 figq wrote:
The sad thing is that half the posters, if not more, still think every barracks will use up some corresponding supply depot....
Oh dear god. I really hope they're just trolling.
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Some of you guys need to relax... This patch is long away from being final and obviously they'll test everything out before making changes to the game.
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On October 08 2010 03:48 Amui wrote:
I would think that a relatively quick upgrade at 40-60 secs for 50/50 available at hatch tech for the roach range would already allow zerg to deal with harass, and push out once the upgrade finishes.
As a toss though, I'm worried about what roaches with extra range can do to my forgefe
Why must every Zerg unit have a speed and/or range upgrade? (not counting Broodlords, Mutas, Corruptors, Queens, or Ultras (anymore))
You may have to put a high-ground cannon or two on LT (if you don't already). That's about it until you get a few Stalkers out.
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RIP Reapers. Might as well remove them from the multiplayer now.
Zerg changes sound good tho
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Hyrule19002 Posts
On October 08 2010 03:53 nka203 wrote:
Some of you guys need to relax... This patch is long away from being final and obviously they'll test everything out before making changes to the game.
lol?
You must be new to Blizzard. They test things by making them live and then adding destructible rocks later.
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depot before barracks? what a joke, i think it's obvious blizzard has no idea what their game is about. otherwise they never would think of such a childish simplifying balance change.
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The depot thing seems weird but it's not really a big deal. Most noncheesy builds get one anyway, and it's not like toss can make gateways without pylons.
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On October 08 2010 03:47 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:45 travis wrote:On October 08 2010 03:37 iEchoic wrote:
Reaper and hellion openings aren't going to do it, and we know that an unpressured Zerg is an incredibly hard Zerg to stop. while im not too sure i like the changes (primarily the supply depot first change) - what exactly about this will stop hellions from being very effective to put pressure on z early game? they'll just go from being INSANELY effective to "an effective way to pressure as an opening" The thing about hellion opening is that it's vulnerable to roach counter-pressure. Currently you have a timeframe where you can hold this off by microing the hellions to kill the roaches as they move across the map, which is the deterrent against this pressure. If hellions get hit when they try to take shots at the roaches (because of range buff), this will no longer be possible, and you'll get rolled by a roach push. See TLO vs Losira GSL Game 1 for an example.
so you'll have to slightly adjust the build and make a bunker
but i think u oversimplify it. i think u can heavily delay the roach attack if u continue to pressure with the hellions to keep them in their base
but i also think the map is a large factor in this obviously travel time is much longer on xel naga caverns than on steppes of war
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On October 08 2010 03:49 yups wrote:
I think zerg will be OP efter this.
They already are at the highest level.
User was warned for this post
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Very interesting changes that will have a massive impact on gameplay.
- Roach range increase - this will almost surely be increased to 4, anything more would make roaches better than hydras vs ground. Increase to 4 would be a good change. Reapers, hellions, & stalkers would all still outrange roaches, and a mid/late-game roach ball would be able to have increased DPS. An interesting change would be that forge FE will be a LOT harder to use, if not impossible, due to the fact that you can't safely put cannons behind forge/gateway if roach range is increased. Due to roach's high health and damage, an increase in roach range may make forge FE completely nonviable in PvZ. Still, roach definitely needs some kind of buff to live up to it's 2-supply cost.
- Barracks only available after supply depot - this removes terran's ability for early rax cheese, and while it may still be possible to kill a 6pool/in-base proxy gateways, it completely removes Terran's ability to punish hatch-first builds. 13/14/15 hatch builds may become the norm in ZvT? While that sounds nice for zerg, I'm not sure if it's the best to promote diverse gameplay.
- nitro pack upgrade only available after factory - IMO this will completely nullify early-game reaper harass. Slow reapers die to speedlings, and they horribly die to speedlings on creep. Without early nitro pack, zerg can freely drone up while getting just a few speedling/queens, or better yet, make some range 4 roaches. reaper 4.5 range vs roach 4 range, slow reapers will have an incredibly hard time kiting roaches especially with battle.net's latency. Not being able to use reaper harass early-game may hurt TvZ early-game diversity, but it probably won't hurt balance too much, as Terran still has a staggering number of viable openings vs Zerg even without reapers.
- fungal stopping blink - completely necessary and sorely needed change. ling/infestor -> ultra may be more viable against stalker/colossus now.
- zerg buildings getting more health - completely necessary and sorely needed change. no more 4-marauder/8-marine drops killing your queen + ultra cavern + spire before your army can arrive.
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On October 08 2010 01:20 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Wow according to browder's stats, zerg is overpowered vs terran in all leagues!
This does not surprise me actually. Think about it the people who are in diamond today are not the same people that were there a week after sc2 went live. So if during a specific week during the ladder I play 45% tvp 40% tvt and 15% tvz then obviously the terran player isn't going to have as much practice at fighting against zerg other than watching replays of other people doing it.
As for the changes they appear small, I like them. Tried to think of all the strats that the rax nerf would hurt and the only one I see where you don't build the depo first anyway (Mind you this doesn't mean that no other strat couldn't be done by building the rax first but of course now it doesn't matter) was the proxy rax. 5 Rax reaper or anything else standard usually gets a depo first anyway.
Roach range is awesome.. IMO they should experiment with an increased range of 1 first before they move to 2. More health to zerg buildings seems kinda small tbh with the exception of larger buildings like the hatchery it seems when a building is getting killed the killer killed it with plenty of time to spare meaning that unless there was a significant increase to the health the building still would have gone down. However, with a low health increase it would lower the chances of multiple tech buildings going down. Last of all blink tbh I thought it was a glitch that they could blink out of FG I had no idea it was intentional.
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To the people worrying about the hellions vs roach, is a 1 range difference not enough to hit the roaches without being hit back(assuming roach range is changed to 4)? What other units are there that this can even be tested against?
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I just don't see how changing roach range changes anything ZvT. Bunkers and tanks will still outrange roach, and will still be the proper defense. Wallins still will stop them. Marauders don't even need to kite to slaughter roach.
It will however really muck up ZvP. It makes kiting zealots much easier, makes it much harder to FF a substantial number of roach, and reduces stalker strength by a lot. I don't think zerg needs more aggression options vs P, they're fine as is.
The aggression options vs T should be mutalisks, but turrets are TOO FUCKING STRONG vs them, so good luck being aggressive with mutas like in BW. Thors aren't even that bad, considering they are only slightly more powerful than a turret for like 5x the cost.
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So their statistics point to an overwhelming Protoss imbalance in almost all match-ups, and then they nerf Terran? I seriously just had to break out in pathetic laughter.
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EPT
