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The only good change is the fungal growth stopping blink change. Barracks first play is now dead, which means Z can always 14 hatch vs T. P can proxy 2 gate inbase much more effectively too. I actually think reapers are close to 100% worthless now.
As for the roach range change. Cool, but why? I don't think it makes roaches any better except vs stalkers perhaps. I don't think the change is the right one. I don't think it helps them be more aggressive.
What they need is a fix to roach burrow move and NP.
Honestly it seems to me like Blizzard is just fishing at this point. They don't know what the hell they're doing wrong.
They also HAVE to address the strength of banshees. Banshees are too strong in small numbers and too powerful period vs protoss.
Marauders still dumb down the game. They're too versatile for no skill input. At least vultures required 300 apm to plant mines effectively. At least dragoons were dumb as shit and hard to move-fire with cause of the attack delay. Units in BW that were extremely versatile were also hard to use. Marauders are stim and perform basic, extremely forgiving micro. There is nothing fancy about marauder usage at all, and I can micro just as well as Flash could, because it's that easy.
There's so many more changes to be made, but fundamentally Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue how to fix the broken gameplay they've created.
Analogy time: Blizzard has made us a quilt. The quilt has some tears cause it wasn't made properly, but it's ok cause Blizzard is "patching" them up (pun intended). However, they made the quilt blue instead of red so they're missing the bigger problem completely, and in the end we might have a well made quilt, but it's the wrong color.
The gameplay can be balanced, but it still is limited and uninteresting and has fundamental flaws.
*Mostly this applies to terran. I think Protoss and Zerg have interesting gameplay and well designed synergy and skill input:effectiveness output returns.
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Hmm i see this as a pretty horrible idea. T has to harass early game to be on equal footing with Z because of their easier early expansion. You can use hellions reapers or very early marines. 2 of these 3 are shut down now. scrap that, roach range shuts down hellions too.
Seems to me that there is no way the zerg wont be able to get his natural out. I see dark days for terrans aproaching
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On October 08 2010 03:24 Zyphen wrote:
Blizzard should not be bothering with any matchup data below diamond. I'm in diamond and I definitely don't think I'm good enough to have balance decisions based around my gameplay.
I completely agree with this, I have played around 200 games and I am at 1000 Diamond rating, but if blizz looked at any of my games as a way of determining what is balanced or not...I would have to slap them in the face.
I don't know if this is too "elitist" to say (considering I am not even elite at all lol) but I think we should be focusing on how the pros play, and balancing around that. Their strategies trickle down and we all learn to use them eventually.
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Zerg Hp+, Roach Range = :D
Terran Reaper and Supply b4 Barrack = WTF are they thinking
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On October 08 2010 03:28 fantomex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:22 Bitters wrote:
we start with an overlord, and considering most Z openers (outside of a cheese) start building at 13-16 supply, you have a second overlord out anyway... so it wouldn't matter Most T openers (outside of cheese) start building after a supply depot. Did you have a point?
well considering six pool is very easy to shut down into an auto win for the opponent, and ten pool isn't much better versus a walled off terran/toss (essentially early zerglings without speed suck), my point was that zerg had such a change implemented, it wouldn't be as"crippling nerf" that people here are making it sound.
stopping a six pool vs. stopping a reaper rush leaves a very very different outcome for the person who tried the cheese strategy.. T was able to recover, while zerg should sent out his gg
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Agree with roach buff. (Nice call or suggestion, Idra). Agree with rax nerf. Not sure about factory requirement on speed for reapers, though. Maybe just increase time.
Radical idea: balance lower leagues differently
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On October 08 2010 03:31 lololol wrote:
Rofl, they might as well have removed reapers in 1v1.
to be perfectly honest, I think the reaper-nerf is related to blizz' statement about balancing the game towards 2v2+ - because terran/terran double-reaper-cheese was impossible to hold if you have one protoss in your team, the pylon(s) powering everything will just get taken down in seconds
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Zerg needs more ranged units, but not by buffing roaches. Even now, roaches are used way too much (check the stats from rep sites). That would be almost like buffing marauders now - the opposite of what needs to be done. I rather think other elements of the zerg tech need to be improved, to become more useful, instead of watching roaches determine every zerg game.
The reaper changes sound very clever, because the unit itself remains as strong as before, just comes a bit later in full strength. Blink stalkers are also long overdue for nerf. But what about marauder drops? They are in every high level Terran game nowadays. Something needs to be done, and I mean even buff other T units, if needed. Just so that the gameplay isn't that uniform.
p.s. From the responses, it seems people don't get what "requires supply depot" means. It doesn't mean 1 s.d. per barracks. It only means that you need to have depot before you can have barracks. Will only affect extreme cheese.
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Interesting. But I agree, rax requiring depot and reaper upgrade requiring factory would be changes that don't make sense logically and feel awfully uninspired/forced. Buildings have nothing to do with supply and reapers have nothing to do with the factory. They could just make the reaper upgrade more expensive or take more time to finish if they want to give zerg more time.
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I might be in the minority but I'm glad that they're nerfing reapers into uselesness. I've never seen an entertaining game that included reapers and the 5 rax reaper rush was probably the most boring strat to watch in RTS history. So now we have a useless unit oh well...BW had them too and its the most balanced game ever. Scout anyone?
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On October 08 2010 03:27 Raiden X wrote:
So Terran can't cheese any more. Yet we still have 4 pool and cannon rushing
First of all, it's a 6 pool, and secondly holy shit it is so easy to block no matter what race you are.
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On October 08 2010 03:29 space_yes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:15 iEchoic wrote:On October 08 2010 03:10 gREIFOCs wrote:On October 08 2010 03:03 Woony wrote:Maybe they don't want Terran to be the "needs to be in the opponents face all the time to be effective" race anymore? Could be, I don't know but I think it's ridiculous, people want something, they get it and now they cry about it. Shows how you can't take the communitys QQ as a measure for balancing.
I think the "Terran must harrass to win" is plain wrong. They have great static defenses, they have wall-ins, they have PFs, they have mules. They can take a easy expand and trough mules get an advantage in minerals. Also their units are more cost effective and have choices towards a highly movile army (MMM is the most mobile thing in the game) and a great mech to stand in ground until you decide to attack. So... Who's that if they don't attack all the time they get behind? I would understand that if a 200/200 army would be less effective than a 200/200 zerg army. But that's not the case. Terran must harass to win, this is the truth. It's been well known for a long time that T lategame is worse than P lategame (terran has no counter to protoss HT/zealots). Terran is at a disadvantage against Z lategame as well, when upgraded ultras are cost effective against every Terran army and broodlord/ultra tech switches rip apart your ability to optimize your production. I've been saying for months that Terran has a much stronger early-mid game that the weaknesses in their lategame have been hidden. The balance of TvX is sitting on the edge of a knife, and if Terran loses the ability to secure an advantage going into the lategame the matchups are going to be very broken. I agree 100%. Furthermore Blizzard's patching strategy seems only designed to nerf the FOTW build(s). My prediction is that macro zergs are going to start owning with the next patch. Hatch before pool ZvT will now be much safer.
That's assuming every unpunished 14 hatch in zvt currently ends up being an autowin for the zerg. Which is simply not true. Just because terran can't do super early pushes doesn't mean they can't do 3 rax stim timing push/marine hellion push or drop/marauder hellion push/4 tank marine push/banshee marine hellion push/thor marauder hellion push on one base and kill the zerg that doesn't scout it.
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On October 08 2010 03:20 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:17 Triscuit wrote:
I like the idea of making a barracks tech lab upgrade require factory.
I don't think it should be reaper speed though, I think it should be concussive shell. IMO. There would be no way to stop roaches for terrans if you needed to build a factory just to make a tech lab just to make marauders.
I think he meant make Conc. Shells require a Factory, not a Tech Lab.
You can have your Marauders, just not your slow.
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The only one that really strikes me as odd is the roach range since roaches seem fine for their early game purpose. I can understand that forcefield is the big problem in ZvP and roach range could somewhat remedy that but I'm very surprised hydralisks aren't made more accessible instead. If Zerg is just encouraged to simply roach spam against toss, it's just simplifying the matchup rather than making it actually more "balanced". Then again, I haven't played Starcraft 2 for quite awhile so not sure how much worth my comment is.
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YES
The roach buff sounds tastey.
I don't agree with both the depot requirement for barracks AND the factory tech reaper speed.
I say one or the other, or else getting reapers out is just gonna be too slow to be effective.
Plus the roach range increase makes dealing with fast reapers ez.
I might just switch back to Zerg
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Oh and guys, these aren't the final changes and it will be ATLEAST one or two months until the next patch, so these changes aren't set in stone. No reason to freak out.
They told us the same the last time, then waited one month and released the previous announced balance changes.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Reaper speed requiring factory actually makes quite a bit of sense, lore wise, but more so gameplay wise, as a lot of people go Reapers into Hellions, so surely it'll not change the game much for that transition?
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On October 08 2010 03:32 Floophead_III wrote:
There is nothing fancy about marauder usage at all, and I can micro just as well as Flash could, because it's that easy.
nah, Flash would just create 4 control-groups of marauders and kite with each group individually in different directions 
also agree that depot before rax is totally uncalled for, makes terran cheese impossible and removes a valuable meta-game-aspect
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Reapers actually had a strategic non-cheese function before the patch. There was a pretty cool TvP build that was a 1rax reaper FE into mass reapers into bio. It was balanced, had weak points and strong points, and was fun to play and watch. Why is this build going to be removed from the game? It is not possible without early speed.
Why can't Terran cheese in any capacity anymore? This is going to really alter the game because protoss can go probe-heavy 13 gate every single game. Zerg can safely expand with a late pool. This isn't just going to remove cheese from 2v2, it is going to completely change TvZ and TvP balance.
The current state of TvX is that Terran has an advantage in the early-mid game and Z and P dominate the lategame. Both matchups revolve around the Z and P player dragging it out into the lategame where they can abuse HTs/ultras uncounterability and secure a win. If it becomes impossible to cheese, allowing more econ-friendly openings, and it becomes impossible to harass Z (non-speed reapers aren't going to work, and hellion openings will be weak to roaches), how are you going to secure an advantage before ultras come out?
I don't know, I don't get it. Does anyone have any ways you can put pressure on Zerg as Terran early game now? Reaper and hellion openings aren't going to do it, and we know that an unpressured Zerg is an incredibly hard Zerg to stop.
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maybe they should spend some time on fixing the dropping issue that I have been having since JULY.
It's nice having to play twice the amount of games to get the same outcome because 50% of the games I play I fucking drop.
Mother fuckers. Angry post. I just dropped again.
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EPT
