On October 08 2010 02:05 Senx wrote: Blizzard is too obsessed with low league stats anyway.. they shouldn't balance the game based on them beacuse the players in them are there for a reason; they're not very good at the game.
This World of Warcraft balance approach scares the living crap out of me to be honest
I agree, its impossible to do and it will ruin the game.
On October 08 2010 02:03 mucker wrote: As a zerg I think this is too many changes. The roach range alone is huge and will change the game quite a bit. I'd rather they just implement that and let us see how it plays out.
The fungal/blink... not sure I like this. I always considered the real issue in ZvP to be hydra speed off creep. This change feels too arbitrary.
Barracks requires supply is dogshit. It reduces race differences and restricts gameplay too much. I think upping the tech lab cost and build time would be better.
Nitro isn't the upgrade that needs to be pushed up the tech tree, concussive shells is.
Agreed wit this. Barracks requiring supply depot limits Terran openings like crazy. There will be no more variety, less mind/meta games.
Concussive shells at factory is such a great idea. The only real problem with early game TvP is that the maurauder is too strong with concussive shells, putting the upgrade at factory helps a lot more than nitro.
I'm glad with the changes though since this just hurts early game rushes and increases the chance of longer, macro games. Since everyone on these forums bitches about the lack of that then all of those people should be happy to see the changes (especially something like depot to make rax).
On October 08 2010 02:07 icemanzdoinwork wrote: Sigh, I guess I'm glad I started playing random a few weeks ago.
I'm an aggressive Terran player and I 9 rax vs toss and 10 rax vs Terran. I usually rauder rush toss into a fe and rine bunker t's to a FE.
I'm not a big fan of TvT so I play it different with early aggression and a FE to gain a economy advantage. Now my tvts are going to be soooo boring like normal tvt .
The other changes are fine, but the rax? Come on if Zerg can 6 pool I should be able to 9 rax !
Good point, dont implement this change blizzard, just do the factory reaper change!!! what the heck, we are getting crushed by toss 60% winrate in some leagues and you are saying depot first?? lol thats gonna make it even worse, forcing the terran to play a macro game!! ahh frustrating
Eliminating the ability for Barracks before Supply seems incredibly reckless to me. The existence of cheesy openings is completely necessary for strategic equilibrium. Why not disable early Spawning Pools and 2gates also? The threat of very early aggression prevents runaway blind econ openings. If, right now, good Z players can Hatch-first and get away with it with some work, then when the earliest possible Barracks is on 11 (really 12), they can act with impunity for the first 2+ minutes of the game.
Moreover, what is it intended to prevent? Yeah, proxy Reapers were a pain before, but there was little clear evidence that they were overpowered. Mass Reapers were worse, but that relied on the speed upgrade (and didn't use a fast Barracks anyway). This change serves no purpose and sacrifices much strategic depth in the opening phase of the game.
A great part of the elegance of Starcraft has alway been due to the viability of aggression at any point in the game, due to the weak defensive advantage and other factors. The player interaction begins from the moment the game begins. It's anathema to try to solve a balance problem with "no rush kk?"
This is way way to much nerfing of terran. Seriously this sounds disgusting.
you need to have the threat to do bs or bbs builds in terran for it to be fully effective. This also slaughter many of the defensive 2v2 builds i've been using when you combo 8 barrack with 16 nexus that effectively denied scouting with fast marine and lack of gateways in base made opponents turtle up...
Roach buff is great, they were pretty bad for a 2 supply unit, though hydras will still suck. Reapers might as well be removed, which wouldn't bother me in the slightest. But requiring a depot before a barracks is completely ridiculous.
On October 08 2010 01:46 Liquid`Jinro wrote: WHAT. THE. FUCK?
Fuck my life, all hellion and reaper builds just died?
So this leaves what, camp like a whore for 30 minutes with planetary fortresses? Fun times.
Wait. What?
Hellions are gonna have a really hard time kiting roaches with longer range -_- Hellion into expo (i.e what TLO played in GSL vs Losira) is already balancing the razors edge when it comes to surviving roach busts, so this might just kill the build entirely (I will wait and see what the exact range upgrade is of course).
On October 08 2010 01:28 Djeez wrote: Stop saying the reapers will now be useless. It's true somewhat that they won't be the massive threat they were early game, but you can still use them mid-late game. For some reason nobody can conceive of making reapers mid-late game... but I know qxc does. When your opponent has 3 bases, maybe even 4 with zerg, and his units aren't spread out reapers can actually be really effective. Arguably more effective than early game, when you only have 1 base to defend.
Agreed, mid-late game reapers are like mini dropships. They can force defenses and they also have the grenades. For some reason people think they can only early harass with them :s
Midgame reapers are kinda obsolete as by then you have dropships that are way more survivable, and dont take up 40 seconds or whatever of your barracks production time.
Reapers need some kind of midgame upgrade other than speed (lol, get a starport after factory or get speed reapers - HARD CHOICE, NOT) to be interesting.
In regards to hellions being unable to kite roaches, I don't see what the big issue is with this. Hellions are anti-light units that splash, why should they counter an armored tank-like unit. Should an armored unit not do well against a unit designed to counter light units?
On October 08 2010 02:05 Sadistx wrote: Ok, so how THE FUCK am I supposed to hold off proxy gates inside my base on steppes now? You always go rax first if you scout it and now you're pretty much fucked and have to pull 6 scvs to kill the endlessly spawned pylons?
What now, I have to scout with my 7th worker and cut scvs to make a depot at 8, rax at 9 every game on steppes? This is beyond stupid.
I wouldn't be as pissed if maps were of proper size, but this is just ridiculous.
To me this sounds like balance, since the protoss as well as the zerg players have to make a decision sacrificing economy for early aggression.
Roach range...YAY BLIZZARD! Needed change, without a doubt.
Fungal change....YAY BLIZZARD!! Needed change.
Supply depot required for Barracks? Fuck you. Seriously. This may CRIPPLE terran when facing a serious rush (like a 6-pool). Yeah, the 6-pool is an all-in, but the only hope we have as Terran if we scout a 6-pool is to drop a rax immediately...now we have to build a SD & then drop a rax? GG
Reaper Speed requiring Factory...I don't disagree with the change, but I'm worried that this will pretty much make the reaper entirely useless...a unit that is never used. I know that the upgrade on the tech lab is too powerful too, and I just don't have a better idea. Hopefully it is still a viable unit post-patch.
I'm seriously worried that the terran nerfs will completely fuck the balance & make T the seriously UP race. Shit, their stats already suggest that T is losing pretty much every matchup in most divisions...do we really need more fucking nerfs?
Sorry, but we might have started out as the OP race...but now we're jsut the uglee stepchildren.
If the roach range was changed to 5 you could actually pressure the front of a terran or protoss's ramp. Maybe even do some damage against a forge FE, and perhaps most importantly, deal with the double pylon + cannon at ramp rather easily. 3 to 5 is too huge of a change though, and none of that will actually come to fruition ;/ it'll be a change to 3.5 or 4 at most.
On October 08 2010 02:03 mucker wrote: As a zerg I think this is too many changes. The roach range alone is huge and will change the game quite a bit. I'd rather they just implement that and let us see how it plays out.
The fungal/blink... not sure I like this. I always considered the real issue in ZvP to be hydra speed off creep. This change feels too arbitrary.
Barracks requires supply is dogshit. It reduces race differences and restricts gameplay too much. I think upping the tech lab cost and build time would be better.
Nitro isn't the upgrade that needs to be pushed up the tech tree, concussive shells is.
Agreed wit this. Barracks requiring supply depot limits Terran openings like crazy. There will be no more variety, less mind/meta games.
Concussive shells at factory is such a great idea. The only real problem with early game TvP is that the maurauder is too strong with concussive shells, putting the upgrade at factory helps a lot more than nitro.
we should put your baneling speed and roach speed into the greater spire yes?
What's funny is how their stastistics don't support the idea of Terran being so much better than Zerg. Statistically, in diamond league, Zerg beats Terran more often than not. We all know that this doesn't mean Zerg is better than Terran for a number of reasons, and apparently so do they because they proceed to talk about nerfing Terran and buffing Zerg. Their statistics, however, do not support these actions.
Protoss is also considerably better than Terran according to those statistics, which is why it's amusing to see Terran get nerfed and Protoss go unchanged. I don't necessarily disagree with their changes, but the conclusions they used to get there are apparently completely unrelated to the statistics they've gathered.
if its depot before rax, I want Ovie before pool, lets just kill all early game rushes shall we? I don't ever use fast rush but it adds dimension to the game.
On October 08 2010 02:03 mucker wrote: As a zerg I think this is too many changes. The roach range alone is huge and will change the game quite a bit. I'd rather they just implement that and let us see how it plays out.
The fungal/blink... not sure I like this. I always considered the real issue in ZvP to be hydra speed off creep. This change feels too arbitrary.
Barracks requires supply is dogshit. It reduces race differences and restricts gameplay too much. I think upping the tech lab cost and build time would be better.
Nitro isn't the upgrade that needs to be pushed up the tech tree, concussive shells is.
Agreed wit this. Barracks requiring supply depot limits Terran openings like crazy. There will be no more variety, less mind/meta games.
Concussive shells at factory is such a great idea. The only real problem with early game TvP is that the maurauder is too strong with concussive shells, putting the upgrade at factory helps a lot more than nitro.
I agree with you about depot first, its a disaster, but i disagree about a conc shells nerf, that would be the equivalent of the depot nerf, and would accomplish the same thing. it would force the terran to play for the late game, where he is up against an imbalanced protoss with sick units and lots of options
Not sure if this was posted already but giving roach even +1 range means protoss cannot forge FE without roaches either hitting the cannons or buildings in front of them.
EPT
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