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On February 20 2009 07:31 infinity2k9 wrote:
Anyone know why mael isnt used much? Can't justify the cost? Even though i think it would..
There's a lot of copying each other that goes on in BW, not a huge amount of originality, including among pros. There's just this idea that DAs are no good so you don't often see them. The same thing was true of arbiters for many years before they took off and now are almost standard in pvt. SC is still evolving and I have no doubt in the future toss will use DAs a lot more, and zerg will use queens a lot more, and some other developments.
DAs really are useful. I've been messing around on iccup with them. One mael with temps or archons around and any group of mutas dies instantly. Then if you micro well you can keep the DA alive and use it against hydras, lings, whatever throughout the rest of the game. The best is if there's a close-together mass of hydras, mael, storm.
A lot of people will think I'm kidding, but I've even been able to use Mind Control effectively at C level. Lurkers are very strong vs lings and hydras. Burrow one behind some cannons at an exp and it's impossible for z to crack with lings. This is stronger than what ppl usually take with MC, ultras. And if it's lategame and you can steal a defiler and get off a good plague.. GG.
I've also won legitimate games at C mind controlling scvs and making tanks, but that's a story for another thread.
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On February 20 2009 09:30 fast ball player wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 07:31 infinity2k9 wrote:
Anyone know why mael isnt used much? Can't justify the cost? Even though i think it would.. There's a lot of copying each other that goes on in BW, not a huge amount of originality, including among pros. There's just this idea that DAs are no good so you don't often see them. The same thing was true of arbiters for many years before they took off and now are almost standard in pvt. SC is still evolving and I have no doubt in the future toss will use DAs a lot more, and zerg will use queens a lot more, and some other developments. DAs really are useful. I've been messing around on iccup with them. One mael with temps or archons around and any group of mutas dies instantly. Then if you micro well you can keep the DA alive and use it against hydras, lings, whatever throughout the rest of the game. The best is if there's a close-together mass of hydras, mael, storm. A lot of people will think I'm kidding, but I've even been able to use Mind Control effectively at C level. Lurkers are very strong vs lings and hydras. Burrow one behind some cannons at an exp and it's impossible for z to crack with lings. This is stronger than what ppl usually take with MC, ultras. And if it's lategame and you can steal a defiler and get off a good plague.. GG. I've also won legitimate games at C mind controlling scvs and making tanks, but that's a story for another thread.
Post replays? I usually would never even bother researching MC.
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there are many ways to deal with this for instance: maestrom, storm, sair, goon+archon, etc. But i remember listening to korean commentators during one of the matches[forgot which one] saying that protoss users right now havent find out the most efficient way to deal with this. They did say that sair was considered best option from progamers and coaches because they can be used to prevent drops, scout, and kill off mutas... either way you cant help but to lose temp here and there so i do suggests geten shuttle and 2 reavers and use that to substitute temps you lose.... im only c-, c at most so dont flame me if my idea isnt the best
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sairs 4-5 with speed shuttle reaver try to slow him down mid game. shift to zeals/archons and keep a decent amount of sairs alive and add some goons in the future accompanied by your reaver. there was a time best and bisu was always doing this.
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This is the exact reason you see so many progamers massing sairs even when the opponent is showing a hydra opening. You should learn from them. The sairs are necessary to allow for shuttle harass and to protect your temps from being sniped so you can handle the hydras.
Your answer: Learn sair builds.
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On February 20 2009 09:30 fast ball player wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 07:31 infinity2k9 wrote:
Anyone know why mael isnt used much? Can't justify the cost? Even though i think it would.. There's a lot of copying each other that goes on in BW, not a huge amount of originality, including among pros. There's just this idea that DAs are no good so you don't often see them. The same thing was true of arbiters for many years before they took off and now are almost standard in pvt. SC is still evolving and I have no doubt in the future toss will use DAs a lot more, and zerg will use queens a lot more, and some other developments. DAs really are useful. I've been messing around on iccup with them. One mael with temps or archons around and any group of mutas dies instantly. Then if you micro well you can keep the DA alive and use it against hydras, lings, whatever throughout the rest of the game. The best is if there's a close-together mass of hydras, mael, storm. A lot of people will think I'm kidding, but I've even been able to use Mind Control effectively at C level. Lurkers are very strong vs lings and hydras. Burrow one behind some cannons at an exp and it's impossible for z to crack with lings. This is stronger than what ppl usually take with MC, ultras. And if it's lategame and you can steal a defiler and get off a good plague.. GG. I've also won legitimate games at C mind controlling scvs and making tanks, but that's a story for another thread.
I donk thing you're kidding, I think you're full of shit. Specially sense some of the crap you said is just flat out wrong. Lurks suck ass against hydras for example. Mind Control is completely horrible except for embarassing an opponent when youve already won.
Feel free to prove me wrong with a rep, but for some reason I get the feeling you don't have any.
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What is the build order for muta into mass hydra? I tried to experience it, but toss can get sair faster and force you go hydra first. They can easily counter muta with sairs, then push out with HT. Then I'm forced to go hydra into lurker contain and mass expand.
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The normal build order, in general, is 3 base while teching lair and getting hydra , a small amount of hydra pressure(like 12 or so), also get an evo for +1 attack for later--> 9 mutas --> muta harass(focusing on sniping temps) --> 5 hatch hydra played very aggresive --> lurk and 4th base. The hydras need to come first to make massing sair less obvious.
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On February 20 2009 11:25 v-.-v wrote:
What is the build order for muta into mass hydra? I tried to experience it, but toss can get sair faster and force you go hydra first. They can easily counter muta with sairs, then push out with HT. Then I'm forced to go hydra into lurker contain and mass expand.
if im not mistaken you go standard 3 hatch spire and make scourge to drop those sairs. Make 2 more hatches[while pumping drones] and den and just keep pumping hydras and make mutas when you think you can snipe
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And ya if hes going early sairs than chase them away with scourge, it will help cover up the muta switch.
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On February 20 2009 12:03 ExSoldier wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 11:25 v-.-v wrote:
What is the build order for muta into mass hydra? I tried to experience it, but toss can get sair faster and force you go hydra first. They can easily counter muta with sairs, then push out with HT. Then I'm forced to go hydra into lurker contain and mass expand. if im not mistaken you go standard 3 hatch spire and make scourge to drop those sairs. Make 2 more hatches[while pumping drones] and den and just keep pumping hydras and make mutas when you think you can snipe
theforeverwar said makes sense, you can't do muta first because toss can make sair wayyyyy before your first muta ever come out and you will easily lose all your lords before shit can happen. Generally best to hydra fend off sair harass, then lurker contain. Make mutas start sniping, pump hydra nonstop.
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On February 20 2009 07:24 MasterReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 06:35 NoobsOfWrath wrote:On February 19 2009 11:04 likeaboss wrote:
I will gladly play anyone questioning my skill i compete regularly with b- level gamers but never have the time to play enough games in a season which is why i say i am AROUND a b- level. Chill if your a forum regulator maybe you should spend some time doing so instead of filling my thread with wasteful comments. I was simply just asking if theres a rule of thumb you guys use like not to move out for third base without four goons or two archons to protect temps. This has happened to me alot lately and its been bothering me and I just simply asked for small tips reguarding it.... I am not asking how to deal with hydra muta...... I am simply asking if you guys choose to hide temps or roll out of base with a x amount of units so your templars are safe. I was simply stating my skill so you guys dont say stupid things like "use mael" or "dont let mutas hit yoru templar" I was just trying to help let you guys know I have a basic grasp of this game so I wanted some higher level comments
edit: i do like mael in some games but only when I see fuckload of muta or late game pvz. this is my worst matchup so I shouldnt give any tips or ideas but these are when I see fit. I remember lx used a mael opening on bluestorm in pgl this season but he delayed his storm because of it if anyone has a link to the vod it would be great.
edit2: actually read everyones post now and a tad angrier will be on iccup on id nrg.bongmicro feel free to msg for game since many of you seemed to be more concerned with rank than tips Use mael ain't a stupid thing to say. It's incredibly effective. He will have to stack his mutas to snipe HT. He will have to use quite a few to do so without losing the mutas first vs a few goons/a couple archons. 1 maelstrom destroying all the muta will COMPLETELY turn the game around. I know this was done in a progame recently I just can't remember which; I watched it on stream. It's not that much out of the way. You're turtling, waiting for X units to combat the mass hydras, you've made some sairs early presumably and you followed with a few dts checking shit out, you can research maelstrom after a few HT and make the DA shortly before moving out because mael requires very little energy Does anyone know in which game that was. I want to see it !
I think it's Reach versus Roro, in the latest WL's newspost.
Edit: Nope, it's not this one, the guy below me is right. I can't find it for the life of me T.T
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On February 20 2009 12:42 thunk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 07:24 MasterReY wrote:On February 20 2009 06:35 NoobsOfWrath wrote:On February 19 2009 11:04 likeaboss wrote:
I will gladly play anyone questioning my skill i compete regularly with b- level gamers but never have the time to play enough games in a season which is why i say i am AROUND a b- level. Chill if your a forum regulator maybe you should spend some time doing so instead of filling my thread with wasteful comments. I was simply just asking if theres a rule of thumb you guys use like not to move out for third base without four goons or two archons to protect temps. This has happened to me alot lately and its been bothering me and I just simply asked for small tips reguarding it.... I am not asking how to deal with hydra muta...... I am simply asking if you guys choose to hide temps or roll out of base with a x amount of units so your templars are safe. I was simply stating my skill so you guys dont say stupid things like "use mael" or "dont let mutas hit yoru templar" I was just trying to help let you guys know I have a basic grasp of this game so I wanted some higher level comments
edit: i do like mael in some games but only when I see fuckload of muta or late game pvz. this is my worst matchup so I shouldnt give any tips or ideas but these are when I see fit. I remember lx used a mael opening on bluestorm in pgl this season but he delayed his storm because of it if anyone has a link to the vod it would be great.
edit2: actually read everyones post now and a tad angrier will be on iccup on id nrg.bongmicro feel free to msg for game since many of you seemed to be more concerned with rank than tips Use mael ain't a stupid thing to say. It's incredibly effective. He will have to stack his mutas to snipe HT. He will have to use quite a few to do so without losing the mutas first vs a few goons/a couple archons. 1 maelstrom destroying all the muta will COMPLETELY turn the game around. I know this was done in a progame recently I just can't remember which; I watched it on stream. It's not that much out of the way. You're turtling, waiting for X units to combat the mass hydras, you've made some sairs early presumably and you followed with a few dts checking shit out, you can research maelstrom after a few HT and make the DA shortly before moving out because mael requires very little energy Does anyone know in which game that was. I want to see it ! I think it's Reach versus Roro, in the latest WL's newspost.
No, reach used alot of feedback to kill roro defilers no maelstorm shit.
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To v-v: No..no lurker contain. Where the hell did you get that from? lol. The hydras are to make him cannon his front and to make mutas less obvious. Hydra/muta doesnt get lurkers until late late.
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On February 20 2009 09:39 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 09:30 fast ball player wrote:On February 20 2009 07:31 infinity2k9 wrote:
Anyone know why mael isnt used much? Can't justify the cost? Even though i think it would.. There's a lot of copying each other that goes on in BW, not a huge amount of originality, including among pros. There's just this idea that DAs are no good so you don't often see them. The same thing was true of arbiters for many years before they took off and now are almost standard in pvt. SC is still evolving and I have no doubt in the future toss will use DAs a lot more, and zerg will use queens a lot more, and some other developments. DAs really are useful. I've been messing around on iccup with them. One mael with temps or archons around and any group of mutas dies instantly. Then if you micro well you can keep the DA alive and use it against hydras, lings, whatever throughout the rest of the game. The best is if there's a close-together mass of hydras, mael, storm. A lot of people will think I'm kidding, but I've even been able to use Mind Control effectively at C level. Lurkers are very strong vs lings and hydras. Burrow one behind some cannons at an exp and it's impossible for z to crack with lings. This is stronger than what ppl usually take with MC, ultras. And if it's lategame and you can steal a defiler and get off a good plague.. GG. I've also won legitimate games at C mind controlling scvs and making tanks, but that's a story for another thread. Post replays? I usually would never even bother researching MC.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7856 PvT on Rush Hour
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7858 PvZ on Destination
I'm only C, but I just checked and both these guys are B- currently, so this is not some joke that only works against newbs.
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Just turtle for a couple more archons before moving out, play a bit more defensively and get that third expo up first, get a group of dragoons before attacking. Templars are most vulnerable when moving, when you are sitting in a ball with archons around its hard for muta snipes, 1 archon hit +1 storm = a lot of dead mutas 
Does it help to say I'm a B- Zerg and made B for a few games yesterday? It's true lol... There's really no magical answers to keep templars alive, I know cuz I snipe them  . Generally the bigger P army is the less effective mutas are, so just horde up a bit more. Also, Z going for a muta hydra bulid has less econ than a lurker/hydra build, so if you expo fast it also puts pressure on the Z.
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I watched the pvz and didnt see mind control doing much for you in that game tbh. Lots of general protoss gayness though. 
edit: watched the pvt as well. don't really know the matchup but it seemed to me that the terran sucked (I heard he is b- but he played bad) and got stuck with his tanks sieged up without vulture support 1 billion times and lost battles he should have won easily. Going tanks was cute and all but do you really think they were cost effective that game?
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Ok since so many are suggesting maelstrom can someone please post an effective replay of EARLY game mael because I would love to see it. I have done it following mass mutas but after seeing a hydra opening show me someone going mael. I would love to steal the build and listen but I do not think I will get many takers. I am cooled off now and done with this thead I just believe the sheepwagon came when one person disputed my skill and then the thread derailed about that. It is just annoying. If you really want to question it go write a blog or make another thread but I was just looking for any tips or tricks you guys use. Not nessiscarly an ultimate non fail idea just something that maybe I do not consider or am watchful of. I am sorry for getting so angry but I post replays of my worst matchup in need and you all try to flame and its pretty annoying when I put myself out there and you just troll me. I was stating my relative skill so I wouldnt get any stupid comments or useless suggestions(which I did). I am sorry for being angry but when people feel the need to beat on their chest and see whose more manly it bothers me. BTW I did not see any of the shit talkers come play me after running their mouths. Thank you to a few of the helpful tips/sympathy of losing your templars as well.
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On February 20 2009 08:08 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 07:24 MasterReY wrote:On February 20 2009 06:35 NoobsOfWrath wrote:On February 19 2009 11:04 likeaboss wrote:
I will gladly play anyone questioning my skill i compete regularly with b- level gamers but never have the time to play enough games in a season which is why i say i am AROUND a b- level. Chill if your a forum regulator maybe you should spend some time doing so instead of filling my thread with wasteful comments. I was simply just asking if theres a rule of thumb you guys use like not to move out for third base without four goons or two archons to protect temps. This has happened to me alot lately and its been bothering me and I just simply asked for small tips reguarding it.... I am not asking how to deal with hydra muta...... I am simply asking if you guys choose to hide temps or roll out of base with a x amount of units so your templars are safe. I was simply stating my skill so you guys dont say stupid things like "use mael" or "dont let mutas hit yoru templar" I was just trying to help let you guys know I have a basic grasp of this game so I wanted some higher level comments
edit: i do like mael in some games but only when I see fuckload of muta or late game pvz. this is my worst matchup so I shouldnt give any tips or ideas but these are when I see fit. I remember lx used a mael opening on bluestorm in pgl this season but he delayed his storm because of it if anyone has a link to the vod it would be great.
edit2: actually read everyones post now and a tad angrier will be on iccup on id nrg.bongmicro feel free to msg for game since many of you seemed to be more concerned with rank than tips Use mael ain't a stupid thing to say. It's incredibly effective. He will have to stack his mutas to snipe HT. He will have to use quite a few to do so without losing the mutas first vs a few goons/a couple archons. 1 maelstrom destroying all the muta will COMPLETELY turn the game around. I know this was done in a progame recently I just can't remember which; I watched it on stream. It's not that much out of the way. You're turtling, waiting for X units to combat the mass hydras, you've made some sairs early presumably and you followed with a few dts checking shit out, you can research maelstrom after a few HT and make the DA shortly before moving out because mael requires very little energy Does anyone know in which game that was. I want to see it ! Jesus christ REACH VS FUCKING CHOJJA UZOO MSL SEMIFINALS GAME FUCKING 5 OMG
are you fucking serious right now?
wow.....geez
Im the biggest reach fan on TL.net and ofc i know that game....
But try to open your eyes or learn to read better: I'll give you a hint: "RECENTLY"
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On February 20 2009 22:03 likeaboss wrote:
Ok since so many are suggesting maelstrom can someone please post an effective replay of EARLY game mael because I would love to see it. I have done it following mass mutas but after seeing a hydra opening show me someone going mael. I would love to steal the build and listen but I do not think I will get many takers. I am cooled off now and done with this thead I just believe the sheepwagon came when one person disputed my skill and then the thread derailed about that. It is just annoying. If you really want to question it go write a blog or make another thread but I was just looking for any tips or tricks you guys use. Not nessiscarly an ultimate non fail idea just something that maybe I do not consider or am watchful of. I am sorry for getting so angry but I post replays of my worst matchup in need and you all try to flame and its pretty annoying when I put myself out there and you just troll me. I was stating my relative skill so I wouldnt get any stupid comments or useless suggestions(which I did). I am sorry for being angry but when people feel the need to beat on their chest and see whose more manly it bothers me. BTW I did not see any of the shit talkers come play me after running their mouths. Thank you to a few of the helpful tips/sympathy of losing your templars as well.
Someone doesn't have to beat you to correct you, dipshit. And I'm pretty sure Drone would rape your face off and he already posted a replay of it.
It's not like you can't use it against nonmutas either. And you aint B- if you can't tell when a Zerg is making 11 mutas after hydras
1 DA with malestrom can probably use it 5000 times alone in a longer game, because it costs so little energy.
Many players better than you or who watch many progames have told you the timing when to get it.
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EPT
