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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 19 2009 11:04 likeaboss wrote:
I will gladly play anyone questioning my skill i compete regularly with b- level gamers but never have the time to play enough games in a season which is why i say i am AROUND a b- level. Chill if your a forum regulator maybe you should spend some time doing so instead of filling my thread with wasteful comments. I was simply just asking if theres a rule of thumb you guys use like not to move out for third base without four goons or two archons to protect temps. This has happened to me alot lately and its been bothering me and I just simply asked for small tips reguarding it.... I am not asking how to deal with hydra muta...... I am simply asking if you guys choose to hide temps or roll out of base with a x amount of units so your templars are safe. I was simply stating my skill so you guys dont say stupid things like "use mael" or "dont let mutas hit yoru templar" I was just trying to help let you guys know I have a basic grasp of this game so I wanted some higher level comments
edit: i do like mael in some games but only when I see fuckload of muta or late game pvz. this is my worst matchup so I shouldnt give any tips or ideas but these are when I see fit. I remember lx used a mael opening on bluestorm in pgl this season but he delayed his storm because of it if anyone has a link to the vod it would be great.
edit2: actually read everyones post now and a tad angrier will be on iccup on id nrg.bongmicro feel free to msg for game since many of you seemed to be more concerned with rank than tips
Well fuck, what kind of magical advice are you looking for? I seriously don't understand. The only posibilities are a different strategic route (which is common sense or you dismissed) or a different tactical route (keeping Templar near Archons, which is common sense).
On top of this you ignored the guidelines. On top of that you dismissed someone's advice because you're too good for it (citing your skill level) rather than dismissing it based on merit.
These things add up.
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Real men don't need templars. Real men use terran.
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On February 19 2009 08:16 imperfect wrote:
this has also been bothering me quite a bit T-T
a lot of korean zergs emulate this, and it works for them maybe because i suck, but also because i dont know what to do.
so are sairs the way to go? I've been trying to incorporate constant corsair pump into my PvZ, and it worked to some extent; i'm still trying to perfect its use. it's really hard to get the right timings down for corsairs, zealot leg upgrade, goon, obs, and storm T_T
dragoons? this used to be what i resorted to, but it doesn't work because it delays my first push a lot, and by then, enough hydras are present. however, i found my push with zeal/chon with ht+dragoons is a lot more potent at taking down expansions because of dragoons, but with a slower third for me.
archons? it's so hard to keep templars in range of archons T-T even then, mutas take dmg and snipe.
looking forward to some great replies!
PS maelstrom is pretty cool ^.-v i used it successfully only once
Well... you dont fast push vs a 5 hatch hydra build. And if you dont have dragoons, the zerg doesnt even need mutas at all to snipe your high templars.
Corsairs are only in case he opened with mutas and not hydras, although corsairs vs a 5 hatch hydra build can give him trouble if he is only on one gas and screw up a bit with his usual timing since he has to get ovie speed with very little gas and his 3rd can be pretty harassable. Which may buy you good time for storm and a quick 3rd.
But yeah, as chill said, dont expect some magical formula to win easy vs this.
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On February 19 2009 12:51 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 08:16 imperfect wrote:
this has also been bothering me quite a bit T-T
a lot of korean zergs emulate this, and it works for them maybe because i suck, but also because i dont know what to do.
so are sairs the way to go? I've been trying to incorporate constant corsair pump into my PvZ, and it worked to some extent; i'm still trying to perfect its use. it's really hard to get the right timings down for corsairs, zealot leg upgrade, goon, obs, and storm T_T
dragoons? this used to be what i resorted to, but it doesn't work because it delays my first push a lot, and by then, enough hydras are present. however, i found my push with zeal/chon with ht+dragoons is a lot more potent at taking down expansions because of dragoons, but with a slower third for me.
archons? it's so hard to keep templars in range of archons T-T even then, mutas take dmg and snipe.
looking forward to some great replies!
PS maelstrom is pretty cool ^.-v i used it successfully only once Well... you dont fast push vs a 5 hatch hydra build. And if you dont have dragoons, the zerg doesnt even need mutas at all to snipe your high templars. Corsairs are only in case he opened with mutas and not hydras, although corsairs vs a 5 hatch hydra build can give him trouble if he is only on one gas and screw up a bit with his usual timing since he has to get ovie speed with very little gas and his 3rd can be pretty harassable. Which may buy you good time for storm and a quick 3rd. But yeah, as chill said, dont expect some magical formula to win easy vs this.
Imperfect you could also post some replays - maybe you're having problems not with the simple hydra-muta sniping but maybe there's something else wrong like your build order or the build the zerg picked. I think likeaboss isn't being specific at all about the specific timing he wants to talk about.
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On February 19 2009 11:25 likeaboss wrote:
hmmmmm killer 1;1 ill be on iccup op nrg) come your picking a fight when i just simply ask advice but come
are you capable of making a normal strategy thread that talks about strategy and not iccup rankings and challenges? everyone else seems to be able to do it.
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On February 19 2009 17:39 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 11:25 likeaboss wrote:
hmmmmm killer 1;1 ill be on iccup op nrg) come your picking a fight when i just simply ask advice but come are you capable of making a normal strategy thread that talks about strategy and not iccup rankings and challenges? everyone else seems to be able to do it.
The problem is because he believes he is a decent player that he is above getting routine answers for a really fucking obvious question. If tech switches weren't strong then pro gamers (zergs) would rely on them zvp so often.
Now if he is actually an form of a decent player, he could watch bisu/free/jangbi/best and stork vods where they beat pro zergs (umm jaedong vs free on athena, jaedong tech switches .....) and watch how it is done. There is a reason, ret/oystein/shauni/octoberzerg/idra/infernal and alot of other good players don't post strategy questions .... its easier to learn from watching someone do it then be told about it.
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Germany2762 Posts
just keep your templars close to archons or a bunch of goons... simple as that i'd say.
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On February 19 2009 18:13 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 17:39 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote:On February 19 2009 11:25 likeaboss wrote:
hmmmmm killer 1;1 ill be on iccup op nrg) come your picking a fight when i just simply ask advice but come are you capable of making a normal strategy thread that talks about strategy and not iccup rankings and challenges? everyone else seems to be able to do it. The problem is because he believes he is a decent player that he is above getting routine answers for a really fucking obvious question. If tech switches weren't strong then pro gamers (zergs) would rely on them zvp so often. Now if he is actually an form of a decent player, he could watch bisu/free/jangbi/best and stork vods where they beat pro zergs (umm jaedong vs free on athena, jaedong tech switches .....) and watch how it is done. There is a reason, ret/oystein/shauni/octoberzerg/idra/infernal and alot of other good players don't post strategy questions .... its easier to learn from watching someone do it then be told about it.
I think by putting his iCCup rank, he hopes to have people understand that his mechanics are decent, and is just having trouble with a simple strategic issue. Also, all those players you mentioned are way above B-, and they don't ask questions because they are the ones who already have the answers.
B- isn't as high of a rank as you think.
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we can watch the replays and see how good he is. theres no need to come in here saying 'o im pretty skilled' and dismiss the first few replies with 'let me give you a tip im B-'. what kind of reaction is he expecting?
if the advice is obviously wrong then he can just ignore it or refute it with strategy arguments instead of iccup rankings.
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Calgary26003 Posts
I just want to say that I think DAs are a good idea. If he's doing the standard 3 Hatch Spire -> 5 Hatch Hydra -> 11 Mutas, it completely negates his Mutas from doing anything other than countering. I would seriously use a DA in your midgame army.
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On February 19 2009 07:06 tdotkrayz wrote:
Dark Archon + maelstrom + psi storm = 1100 minerals/gas wasted for zerg. 200/200 for you.
wtf. one single dark archon already costs 250/200 then you have to research maelstorm which is 100/100 i think and you have to make the temps and research psi-storm.
ok lets assume you already have templar and psi-storm, which costs most of the gas even then its STILL 350/300.
i dont get ur numbers there
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On February 19 2009 11:04 likeaboss wrote:
I will gladly play anyone questioning my skill i compete regularly with b- level gamers but never have the time to play enough games in a season which is why i say i am AROUND a b- level. Chill if your a forum regulator maybe you should spend some time doing so instead of filling my thread with wasteful comments. I was simply just asking if theres a rule of thumb you guys use like not to move out for third base without four goons or two archons to protect temps. This has happened to me alot lately and its been bothering me and I just simply asked for small tips reguarding it.... I am not asking how to deal with hydra muta...... I am simply asking if you guys choose to hide temps or roll out of base with a x amount of units so your templars are safe. I was simply stating my skill so you guys dont say stupid things like "use mael" or "dont let mutas hit yoru templar" I was just trying to help let you guys know I have a basic grasp of this game so I wanted some higher level comments
edit: i do like mael in some games but only when I see fuckload of muta or late game pvz. this is my worst matchup so I shouldnt give any tips or ideas but these are when I see fit. I remember lx used a mael opening on bluestorm in pgl this season but he delayed his storm because of it if anyone has a link to the vod it would be great.
edit2: actually read everyones post now and a tad angrier will be on iccup on id nrg.bongmicro feel free to msg for game since many of you seemed to be more concerned with rank than tips
Use mael ain't a stupid thing to say. It's incredibly effective. He will have to stack his mutas to snipe HT. He will have to use quite a few to do so without losing the mutas first vs a few goons/a couple archons. 1 maelstrom destroying all the muta will COMPLETELY turn the game around. I know this was done in a progame recently I just can't remember which; I watched it on stream. It's not that much out of the way. You're turtling, waiting for X units to combat the mass hydras, you've made some sairs early presumably and you followed with a few dts checking shit out, you can research maelstrom after a few HT and make the DA shortly before moving out because mael requires very little energy
p.s. Don't bring this stupid x17 channel garbage that I know you like from seeing you around on bnet into the forum, bashing on people and challenging anyone telling you you're wrong to a 1v1; I'm sure that every time some boxer is told by his 75 yo coach that he did something wrong he says FUCK UUUUUUUUU GO 1v1 NOW BITCH. No, you don't have to be better than someone else to know something is wrong with someone else's play.
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On February 20 2009 06:26 MasterReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 07:06 tdotkrayz wrote:
Dark Archon + maelstrom + psi storm = 1100 minerals/gas wasted for zerg. 200/200 for you. wtf. one single dark archon already costs 250/200 then you have to research maelstorm which is 100/100 i think and you have to make the temps and research psi-storm. ok lets assume you already have templar and psi-storm, which costs most of the gas even then its STILL 350/300. i dont get ur numbers there
If you watched Drone's rep, it was a speedzeal attack ->templar archives -> psi storm -> maelstorm. Drone got maelstorm pretty safely and there was definitely time for him to get it, morph a DA, and take advantage of it.
So if you know he has muta, going the maelstorm isn't bad. Say you capture 9 muta, that's 900 min/900 gas.
The maelstorm route is interesting, I'm going to have to think about it. I haven't even thought of it because progamers don't use it. I'm surprised that Chill recommended it because I don't think it's the safest route because if you miss your mael storm you're dead, and it's not that useful against hydras. But, as I stated, Drone KNEW he had muta and they comprised a significant amount of his attacking force.
I'm going to have to do something thinking about it.
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On February 20 2009 06:35 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 11:04 likeaboss wrote:
I will gladly play anyone questioning my skill i compete regularly with b- level gamers but never have the time to play enough games in a season which is why i say i am AROUND a b- level. Chill if your a forum regulator maybe you should spend some time doing so instead of filling my thread with wasteful comments. I was simply just asking if theres a rule of thumb you guys use like not to move out for third base without four goons or two archons to protect temps. This has happened to me alot lately and its been bothering me and I just simply asked for small tips reguarding it.... I am not asking how to deal with hydra muta...... I am simply asking if you guys choose to hide temps or roll out of base with a x amount of units so your templars are safe. I was simply stating my skill so you guys dont say stupid things like "use mael" or "dont let mutas hit yoru templar" I was just trying to help let you guys know I have a basic grasp of this game so I wanted some higher level comments
edit: i do like mael in some games but only when I see fuckload of muta or late game pvz. this is my worst matchup so I shouldnt give any tips or ideas but these are when I see fit. I remember lx used a mael opening on bluestorm in pgl this season but he delayed his storm because of it if anyone has a link to the vod it would be great.
edit2: actually read everyones post now and a tad angrier will be on iccup on id nrg.bongmicro feel free to msg for game since many of you seemed to be more concerned with rank than tips Use mael ain't a stupid thing to say. It's incredibly effective. He will have to stack his mutas to snipe HT. He will have to use quite a few to do so without losing the mutas first vs a few goons/a couple archons. 1 maelstrom destroying all the muta will COMPLETELY turn the game around. I know this was done in a progame recently I just can't remember which; I watched it on stream. It's not that much out of the way. You're turtling, waiting for X units to combat the mass hydras, you've made some sairs early presumably and you followed with a few dts checking shit out, you can research maelstrom after a few HT and make the DA shortly before moving out because mael requires very little energy
Does anyone know in which game that was.
I want to see it !
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Anyone know why mael isnt used much? Can't justify the cost? Even though i think it would..
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I'm gonna be nice and give you a few alternatives.
1. Keep your sairs ALIVE so they can accompany you when you move out in midgame.
2. Make a dark archon with maelstrom. If anything, it works better at high levels than lower because of the incredibly good muta micro. I've had success with this against A- level koreans so don't give me that shit 'im b- this is noob theorycrafting' .
3. Just move your army slowly and keep the templars near archons and ranged goons.
4. Don't pressure, play stationary defensively while grabbing exps. That way it'll be more difficult for the mutas to snipe.
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I don't think the DA would work out being cost efficient. There's a reason pros don't build them.
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On February 20 2009 07:37 Shauni wrote:
I'm gonna be nice and give you a few alternatives.
1. Keep your sairs ALIVE so they can accompany you when you move out in midgame.
2. Make a dark archon with maelstrom. If anything, it works better at high levels than lower because of the incredibly good muta micro. I've had success with this against A- level koreans so don't give me that shit 'im b- this is noob theorycrafting' .
3. Just move your army slowly and keep the templars near archons and ranged goons.
4. Don't pressure, play stationary defensively while grabbing exps. That way it'll be more difficult for the mutas to snipe.
If you actually bothered to watch either of his games you would actually know that he never even sair teched. You can't possibly make suggestions if you didn't watch the games. He did tip number 3 and I've done it plenty of times as well, you can't just magically protect ur templar just by putting your templar closer to dragons//archons. And he didn't pressure in either game, which was the problem IMO. He never did any damage and it allowed the Z to just set up attacks to snipe templar.
Honestly bongmicro, I can't give you a good suggestion cuz I'm a victim to this bs as well when I go for the zlot speed +1 push. Personally I don't even like the build and I tech sair more frequently, so it's a bit of an alternative. If I see the spire going up I'll just make 4-5 sairs and try to keep him busy on those so I can just tech elsewhere. The sair harass can be effective, but it just doesn't fall into some peoples style of play, and you seem to not like corsairs based upon the games.
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On February 20 2009 07:24 MasterReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 06:35 NoobsOfWrath wrote:On February 19 2009 11:04 likeaboss wrote:
I will gladly play anyone questioning my skill i compete regularly with b- level gamers but never have the time to play enough games in a season which is why i say i am AROUND a b- level. Chill if your a forum regulator maybe you should spend some time doing so instead of filling my thread with wasteful comments. I was simply just asking if theres a rule of thumb you guys use like not to move out for third base without four goons or two archons to protect temps. This has happened to me alot lately and its been bothering me and I just simply asked for small tips reguarding it.... I am not asking how to deal with hydra muta...... I am simply asking if you guys choose to hide temps or roll out of base with a x amount of units so your templars are safe. I was simply stating my skill so you guys dont say stupid things like "use mael" or "dont let mutas hit yoru templar" I was just trying to help let you guys know I have a basic grasp of this game so I wanted some higher level comments
edit: i do like mael in some games but only when I see fuckload of muta or late game pvz. this is my worst matchup so I shouldnt give any tips or ideas but these are when I see fit. I remember lx used a mael opening on bluestorm in pgl this season but he delayed his storm because of it if anyone has a link to the vod it would be great.
edit2: actually read everyones post now and a tad angrier will be on iccup on id nrg.bongmicro feel free to msg for game since many of you seemed to be more concerned with rank than tips Use mael ain't a stupid thing to say. It's incredibly effective. He will have to stack his mutas to snipe HT. He will have to use quite a few to do so without losing the mutas first vs a few goons/a couple archons. 1 maelstrom destroying all the muta will COMPLETELY turn the game around. I know this was done in a progame recently I just can't remember which; I watched it on stream. It's not that much out of the way. You're turtling, waiting for X units to combat the mass hydras, you've made some sairs early presumably and you followed with a few dts checking shit out, you can research maelstrom after a few HT and make the DA shortly before moving out because mael requires very little energy Does anyone know in which game that was. I want to see it !
Jesus christ
REACH VS FUCKING CHOJJA UZOO MSL SEMIFINALS GAME FUCKING 5
OMG
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On February 20 2009 08:02 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 07:37 Shauni wrote:
I'm gonna be nice and give you a few alternatives.
1. Keep your sairs ALIVE so they can accompany you when you move out in midgame.
2. Make a dark archon with maelstrom. If anything, it works better at high levels than lower because of the incredibly good muta micro. I've had success with this against A- level koreans so don't give me that shit 'im b- this is noob theorycrafting' .
3. Just move your army slowly and keep the templars near archons and ranged goons.
4. Don't pressure, play stationary defensively while grabbing exps. That way it'll be more difficult for the mutas to snipe. If you actually bothered to watch either of his games you would actually know that he never even sair teched. You can't possibly make suggestions if you didn't watch the games. He did tip number 3 and I've done it plenty of times as well, you can't just magically protect ur templar just by putting your templar closer to dragons//archons. And he didn't pressure in either game, which was the problem IMO. He never did any damage and it allowed the Z to just set up attacks to snipe templar. Honestly bongmicro, I can't give you a good suggestion cuz I'm a victim to this bs as well when I go for the zlot speed +1 push. Personally I don't even like the build and I tech sair more frequently, so it's a bit of an alternative. If I see the spire going up I'll just make 4-5 sairs and try to keep him busy on those so I can just tech elsewhere. The sair harass can be effective, but it just doesn't fall into some peoples style of play, and you seem to not like corsairs based upon the games.
There's a reason why people rarely go non sair builds on higher levels. Why can't I say that it's an alternative to use different builds? I don't understand you at all.
When people come to certain levels they realize that what previously worked isn't going to work if they want to advance further and they have to (under certain circumstances) change their playstyle. It seems like this is a similiar situation.
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EPT
