In addition to that change, I have been making numerous smaller changes both before and after switching the hand I use my mouse with(see part 1). Some of these include arm positioning, monitor distance, hotkeys and most importantly, and what will be the secondary focus of this thread, developing good habits that will transfer over to SC2.
So what switch am I talking about?
No, I'm not talking about the switch referenced in that video.. although many of you will pray to point out the similarities I'm sure.. what I'm talking about is..
I switched (back) to Warcraft 3.
Now what does my switch imply?
Some have argued that if playing Warcraft 3 is a better way to prepare for SC2, then they will consider SC2 a failure. Most of this thread will be about convincing you it is better, but I also want to convince you that that fact is not an implication that the style and excitement would be any less like Brood Wars.
Not even many WC3 players want WC4 over SC2, and that is not what is being said here.
The important similarities between SC2 and WC3 lies in how you control the game, that is, mechanics. The things you need to know how to do quickly and efficiently.
This simple fact is, there were dozens and dozens of evolutions in how you control the RTS game from BW ---> WC3 and I can't think of a single one that is reverting back to the BW style. But why take my word for it, I will go over the examples.
I would hope this list could be exhaustive but I am certain it will not be.
1. Let's start with what is maybe the biggest one.. MBS MBS is in Warcraft 3 and SC 2 but not in BW. Why is this important? I'm not saying it's going to be hard for BW players to pick up MBS, I'm really not.. although getting practice using MBS is still a real thing and people who play WC3 will have experience at it and BW players will not. What I think is important is all the time BW players are wasting learning how to macro instead of developing other useful skills. Macro is a big wall for a LOT of bad and a lot of good players alike. Macro is so hard to master that only the top player could even possibly make this claim and you spend so much time doing it and so much energy being frusterated when you lose a game because of it. And guess what... It's obsolete. Some will argue doing something harder than what you have to do will make you more accomplished at the task you're actually training for. It's just not close enough where that kind of thinking is relevant. I used to think this but it's just straight up a different skill. Modern macro doesn't require you to go back to your base. That doesn't mean the skill of fast screen switching is obsolete but that skill is not the same as macro and is much easier.
2. Numeral hotkey Usage Brood War is an old game, modern RTS games are being designed to allow you to be neat at all times, a big part of this is not having more units/buildings than you can fit in your hotkeys. Zerg got fucked on this one in BW but it's not going to be like that after SC2. You will easily be able to play a game with only 2 hotkeys but 4 will probably be more common -Production buildings -CC/Nexus AND tech buildings -Army 1 -Army 2 to allow flanking The better players will have observers/shuttles and units of importance hotkeyed also, but it will rarely go higher than #7 I think and usually be much fewer. If you use your head you can determine what numeral hotkeys will be optimal for you in SC2 and start practicing them in WC3. Perfect control over these kinds of things is important and WC3 is an opportunity to practice it.
3. Getting used to new mechanics Ok what are the new mechanics in SC2/WC3 and not in BW?
-TAB - Allow you to cycle through unit types that are selected eg. 3 zeals 1 HT in control group 1, PUSH: 1, TAB, -HOTKEY FOR STORM-, leftclick
-SHIFT+TAB - Allow you to cycle backwards through unit types that are selected(opposite of TAB)
-MOUSE3 - In WC3, you have the option to turn off MOUSE SCROLLING(that is when you move your mouse to the edge of the screen and it scrolls the map. Why would anyone possibly do this? While it's LIKELY not optimal, I currently am using this feature to get used to MOUSE3... It's kind of hard to explain.. it grabs the terrain and then moves it as you move your mouse, exactly like google maps. Go try it on google maps it is insanely useful in game for moving small distances without having to throw your mouse all the way to the edge of the screen. Again, likely using only this is not optimal but I honestly wouldn't be that surprised if it was for reasons I won't get into right now. I know that Grubby(top wc3 player) uses mouse3 often.
-The ` key - In WC3, you can use the ` key to select idle workers, this won't be terribly hard to pick up for BW players but stuff like ` SHIFT ```` to select 5 idle workers quickly is something that is a good thing to learn before SC2 comes out.
-SHIFT ADDING TO GROUPS - This one is huge, I THINK is actually also in BW so if you people don't use it then you should start...
However it is easier to train because doing it with buildings might be the most useful function of it which YOU CAN'T do in BW. If you don't know what it is.. eg. Say you have 2 facts in control group 5 and you have just started construction of a 3rd one, you click on the constructing(or finished) factory and then click SHIFT + 5. All 3 facts are now in control group 5.
-Custom hotkeys - This one is fucking monster size. As I'm sure no one will be surprised, I do think that there is usually a correct way to do something. Whether or not there is a right way for everyone, there is definitely a right way for each individual person and sometimes it takes time to figure it out. People who can figure out what hotkeys are optimal for them now will be at a huge advantage, I doubt anyone would argue that. However even the people who are using custom hotkeys in BW.. this wasn't good enough for me because you are practicing using them in conjunction with a bunch of other obsolete crap.. all the stuff I have mentioned and more. How can you figure out what button you want to be attack if you are currently controlling up to 10 groups of units sometimes and usually more than 3. Using my attack key right now for BW would be terrible, but for WC3 and SC2 it's great.
I am certain there are other reasons but I think I got most of the important ones so I'll leave it at that for now. I am certain most or all of you will keep playing BW whether you agree with me or not but the best advice you can possibly get is that you need to focus on relearning things to do them in the most efficient way!
Remember when you went from double clicking on a unit to select multiples of it's type to CTRL + Clicking on that unit for the same result. This is like that 100 times over.
As always if anyone wants to play WC3 or talk about this stuff my msn is Forced-Attrition at hotmail.com
I never liked using tab to cycle unit groups. Because it forms bad habits imo. 1, you won't see what unit is closer for casting spells and what not. 2, (if like in wc3 units order themselves by cost/value) if the units die you will tab over X amount of times and not find them and waste time.
When I play wc3, I don't really use the MBS that much and it doesn't effect the game as much either because it is a low unit count game. I still do well. Again MBS, doesn't tell you what structure is producing units and u cant cycle the buildings individually to check/recheck timing and shit like that. Its not even that great. I never even used it at blizzcon when playing seriously.
I think the mouse3 thing is just a feature from warcraft that has been around since before side scrolling. you have to do this in wc1 iirc, and lots of players use the arrow keys for small movements and crap too. (boxer does).
ofc, shift add/remove is in bw. Its in wc2. Very important.
I use custom hotkeys in wc3 (because im ud and ud nukes) so I made all heroes (even non UD ones) ZXC (v=ultra) and B is open spell pane when you level up. Its so easy to use especially in clutch battles and shit.
I think when I start sc2 I'm going to map all keys to match the onscreen UI display so that way it will even teach me the new hold position, patrol, and other shit locations. I can never figure out which button is which in wc3, I always use the shortcuts. I don't know if that's good or bad.
The only problem with that imo, is if you play on another computer besides your own you will have to bring the customkey txt document around with you or you will have to manually change all the shit every time. Some PC cafes don't allow you to change shit in windows, so you can be fucked.
I think the micro in WC3 is entirely different from StarCraft. You have to get used to more fast-paced action, unlike in WC3 the units have 300 hp and over, while units in SC have a smaller amount of HP, die faster and are replaced even faster. Not to mention the practice to control 3 or 4 groups of units properly. I think that is the biggest factor in staying with StarCraft in preparation for SC2.
MBS is not that big of a deal. The macro will be even more similar to SC than to WC3. You can't just press 5, which selects all of your gateways, and then click Z to build zealots at all of them. You need to click Z for the number of zealots you'd like, clicking one only builds it at 1 gateway, clicking twice would make another gateway build one, and so on. Also the sheer number of buildings while be different in SC2 compared to WC3. Players seldom got over 2 of any building that built units.
On December 22 2008 16:07 rushz0rz wrote: I think the micro in WC3 is entirely different from StarCraft. You have to get used to more fast-paced action, unlike in WC3 the units have 300 hp and over, while units in SC have a smaller amount of HP, die faster and are replaced even faster. Not to mention the practice to control 3 or 4 groups of units properly. I think that is the biggest factor in staying with StarCraft in preparation for SC2.
MBS is not that big of a deal. The macro will be even more similar to SC than to WC3. You can't just press 5, which selects all of your gateways, and then click Z to build zealots at all of them. You need to click Z for the number of zealots you'd like, clicking one only builds it at 1 gateway, clicking twice would make another gateway build one, and so on. Also the sheer number of buildings while be different in SC2 compared to WC3. Players seldom got over 2 of any building that built units.
You only need more than 2 control groups when flanking and even then you might not ever need more then 3 just because the swarm AI is so good.
As far as the micro.. Mauraders = Dryads etc........... Actually.. I could continue to pick apart your whole post but you know what.. I'm sure enough of myself that I don't feel the need to refute your misguided perceptions. If some of you want to live in denial then go for it.
Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
On December 22 2008 15:03 CharlieMurphy wrote: I never liked using tab to cycle unit groups. Because it forms bad habits imo. 1, you won't see what unit is closer for casting spells and what not. 2, (if like in wc3 units order themselves by cost/value) if the units die you will tab over X amount of times and not find them and waste time.
When I play wc3, I don't really use the MBS that much and it doesn't effect the game as much either because it is a low unit count game. I still do well. Again MBS, doesn't tell you what structure is producing units and u cant cycle the buildings individually to check/recheck timing and shit like that. Its not even that great. I never even used it at blizzcon when playing seriously.
I think the mouse3 thing is just a feature from warcraft that has been around since before side scrolling. you have to do this in wc1 iirc, and lots of players use the arrow keys for small movements and crap too. (boxer does).
ofc, shift add/remove is in bw. Its in wc2. Very important.
I use custom hotkeys in wc3 (because im ud and ud nukes) so I made all heroes (even non UD ones) ZXC (v=ultra) and B is open spell pane when you level up. Its so easy to use especially in clutch battles and shit.
I think when I start sc2 I'm going to map all keys to match the onscreen UI display so that way it will even teach me the new hold position, patrol, and other shit locations. I can never figure out which button is which in wc3, I always use the shortcuts. I don't know if that's good or bad.
The only problem with that imo, is if you play on another computer besides your own you will have to bring the customkey txt document around with you or you will have to manually change all the shit every time. Some PC cafes don't allow you to change shit in windows, so you can be fucked.
first paragraph - it always uses the closes unit / don't tab by memory use your eyes, if you go to far shift tab, its much faster then clicking the unit always
second paragraph - mbs will be crazy fucking important in SC2 obv and reguardless of that the fact that you have handicapped yourself is irrelevant and completely opposite of the nature of my post, the building that produces the unit will always be the one closest to being idle.. you will get good enough that you dont ever need to look but even if that wasnt the case MBS will still be necessary.. I don't think I need to explain this.
third paragraph - if i recall correctly, you don't recall correctly. and in SC1 the mouse 3 scroll is garbage and unusable. arrow movements is so far inferior.. move whole hand out of position or mouse3/move mouse slightly? The fact that it is obviously inferior but has shown to be useful highlights my point
4thparagraph(sentence) - Yea, you can do it in SC1, but it's fucking severely gimped because you can only do it to units and you can only control 12 units. doing it to buildings it shines in SC2 but say you have 9 racks building.. how often are you going to have a group with <4 marines building to add them too? It's barely useful in SC1
Yeah I had similar keys to you for a while although not ZXCV cuz they are less accessible.. but I had B for skill for a long time.. I definitely agree B is optimal for a left handed keyboarder because then you can combo off easily like B - Z, B- Q
B-Z will always be faster the Z-Z ETC
This is how it all started for me years ago lol... I'm a perfectionist and this is where it got me.
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
The world isn't that random.. you can predict certain things with remarkable reliability if you use your head.
-blizzard will patch SC2 until it is great. -there will be money in professional SC2 -mbs will be in SC2 -that wasn't my only point
I don't know what it's like to (not) think like you.
Do you honestly think SC2 dying in a few months is possible?
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
so true XD
Even if ANY or all of this shit was possible.. I actually enjoy doing what I'm doing. I think people use those excuses because you think stuff like this is hard work.. I absolutely love thinking about this stuff and applying it to my game. The sad thing is SC is important to a lot of you but you use these excuses to keep from working hard because then you don't have to admit to yourselves that you either don't like doing it or you don't think you have what it takes to compete.
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
Man I hate posters who think the world is this random.. you can predict certain things with remarkable reliability if you use your head.
-blizzard will patch SC2 until it is great. -there will be money in professional SC2 -mbs will be in SC2 -that wasn't my only point
I don't know what it's like to (not) think like you.
Do you honestly think SC2 dying in a few months is possible?
I know i was exaggerating but to me it seems like a waste of time. Why spend the time you have left on bw trying to play wc3 to get used to mbs. Improve at bw because of your love for the game not so you could develop good habits for sc2 because how are you going to know what those good habits are for sc2. Do you see bw pros playing wc3 so they can get used to mbs and become a pro in sc2 2. Honestly we have no idea if sc2 can become a esport. So why are you trying to prepare yourself to become some kind of sc2 progamer. Is that the only reason why you're going to play sc2? To become good and make money off it?
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
Man I hate posters who think the world is this random.. you can predict certain things with remarkable reliability if you use your head.
-blizzard will patch SC2 until it is great. -there will be money in professional SC2 -mbs will be in SC2 -that wasn't my only point
I don't know what it's like to (not) think like you.
Do you honestly think SC2 dying in a few months is possible?
I know i was exaggerating but to me it seems like a waste of time. Why spend the time you have left on bw trying to play wc3 to get used to mbs. Honestly we have no idea if sc2 can become a esport. So why are you trying to prepare yourself to become some kind of sc2 progamer. Is that the only reason why you're going to play sc2? To become good and make money off it?
Wtf read my post.. it's not just MBS.. Yes I do have an idea that SC2 can become an esport.. it 100% will.. whether it would or not if blizzard wasn't going to stop at nothing to accomplish that is another question. They have money, they have desire, they have talent and they have an unprecedented following already... not to mention a flawless track record.
RL is a pretty predictable place a lot of the time.
Yes my goal is to make money off of it someway or another, as I said in my previous post.. I love it, I love figuring it out, just because I can't play enough to figure strats out doesn't mean there isn't an infinite amount of things that can't be figured out.
I think the changes you are doing to improve your game for bw is nice and shows your love for bw but i dont know why you're doing stuff to get used to sc2. So you could have a head start from other people on the chance that sc2 actually becomes a esport?
On December 22 2008 18:02 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I think the changes you are doing to improve your game for bw is nice and shows your love for bw but i dont know why you're doing stuff to get used to sc2.
Well thanks, I didn't think I had to explain that part but I don't mind.. I guess I feel that though it might not happen all at once, SC2 is the future of RTS. WCG dropped BW and though Korea might resist for a bit.. they will switch... I mean how can a person not be excited about the sequel to their favorite game when the conditions are so perfect.
Blizzard is loaded. They care so much about making SC2 the best competitive game ever and have a perfect track record. Those 3 things alone is almost enough to convince anyone SC2 is the future. There isn't really any mystery about it. BW is great in Korea but I don't think it will get that much bigger in Korea and how can you expect to get new people to start playing it after SC2 is released.. it will stagnate very quickly.. the money won't be there anymore.
Blizzard will undoubtedly have huge tournaments as they did just this year in WC3, a 5 year old game. And now they are more and more loaded and there will be more and more money. Enough to grab peoples attention. Not to BW, to SC2.
Anyways this post is kind of scattered but I don't feel like editing so hopefully the logic can be followed as is.
Well good luck. I think im skeptical not because i dont believe in blizzard but because it seems like such a different game from bw. Yeah theres still old units from bw like mutas but features like mbs and automine makes me worried and it would really suck for you if you spent all that time and sc2 actually became a disaster.
You won´t gain as much of an advantage as you might think. The aspects of gameplay you are "training" for is basic stuff refined for ease of use. It is supposed to be as intuitive as possible, that is the point of the changes (compared to SC:BW).
If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
The ONLY thing sc2 has in common with war3 is the MBS mechanic.... That's it... infact playing war3 could be bad for you since it screwes up the logic you use when you play the game. War3 gives the advantage to the player that sits idle and don't use his money and lumber in no/low upkeep. Do this in SC2 and see what happends....
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
On December 22 2008 19:06 Integra wrote: The ONLY thing sc2 has in common with war3 is the MBS mechanic.... That's it... infact playing war3 could be bad for you since it screwes up the logic you use when you play the game. War3 gives the advantage to the player that sits idle and don't use his money and lumber in no/low upkeep. Do this in SC2 and see what happends....
You obviously didn't read my post and have never played Warcraft 3.
EPT
