In addition to that change, I have been making numerous smaller changes both before and after switching the hand I use my mouse with(see part 1). Some of these include arm positioning, monitor distance, hotkeys and most importantly, and what will be the secondary focus of this thread, developing good habits that will transfer over to SC2.
So what switch am I talking about?
No, I'm not talking about the switch referenced in that video.. although many of you will pray to point out the similarities I'm sure.. what I'm talking about is..
I switched (back) to Warcraft 3.
Now what does my switch imply?
Some have argued that if playing Warcraft 3 is a better way to prepare for SC2, then they will consider SC2 a failure. Most of this thread will be about convincing you it is better, but I also want to convince you that that fact is not an implication that the style and excitement would be any less like Brood Wars.
Not even many WC3 players want WC4 over SC2, and that is not what is being said here.
The important similarities between SC2 and WC3 lies in how you control the game, that is, mechanics. The things you need to know how to do quickly and efficiently.
This simple fact is, there were dozens and dozens of evolutions in how you control the RTS game from BW ---> WC3 and I can't think of a single one that is reverting back to the BW style. But why take my word for it, I will go over the examples.
I would hope this list could be exhaustive but I am certain it will not be.
1. Let's start with what is maybe the biggest one.. MBS MBS is in Warcraft 3 and SC 2 but not in BW. Why is this important? I'm not saying it's going to be hard for BW players to pick up MBS, I'm really not.. although getting practice using MBS is still a real thing and people who play WC3 will have experience at it and BW players will not. What I think is important is all the time BW players are wasting learning how to macro instead of developing other useful skills. Macro is a big wall for a LOT of bad and a lot of good players alike. Macro is so hard to master that only the top player could even possibly make this claim and you spend so much time doing it and so much energy being frusterated when you lose a game because of it. And guess what... It's obsolete. Some will argue doing something harder than what you have to do will make you more accomplished at the task you're actually training for. It's just not close enough where that kind of thinking is relevant. I used to think this but it's just straight up a different skill. Modern macro doesn't require you to go back to your base. That doesn't mean the skill of fast screen switching is obsolete but that skill is not the same as macro and is much easier.
2. Numeral hotkey Usage Brood War is an old game, modern RTS games are being designed to allow you to be neat at all times, a big part of this is not having more units/buildings than you can fit in your hotkeys. Zerg got fucked on this one in BW but it's not going to be like that after SC2. You will easily be able to play a game with only 2 hotkeys but 4 will probably be more common -Production buildings -CC/Nexus AND tech buildings -Army 1 -Army 2 to allow flanking The better players will have observers/shuttles and units of importance hotkeyed also, but it will rarely go higher than #7 I think and usually be much fewer. If you use your head you can determine what numeral hotkeys will be optimal for you in SC2 and start practicing them in WC3. Perfect control over these kinds of things is important and WC3 is an opportunity to practice it.
3. Getting used to new mechanics Ok what are the new mechanics in SC2/WC3 and not in BW?
-TAB - Allow you to cycle through unit types that are selected eg. 3 zeals 1 HT in control group 1, PUSH: 1, TAB, -HOTKEY FOR STORM-, leftclick
-SHIFT+TAB - Allow you to cycle backwards through unit types that are selected(opposite of TAB)
-MOUSE3 - In WC3, you have the option to turn off MOUSE SCROLLING(that is when you move your mouse to the edge of the screen and it scrolls the map. Why would anyone possibly do this? While it's LIKELY not optimal, I currently am using this feature to get used to MOUSE3... It's kind of hard to explain.. it grabs the terrain and then moves it as you move your mouse, exactly like google maps. Go try it on google maps it is insanely useful in game for moving small distances without having to throw your mouse all the way to the edge of the screen. Again, likely using only this is not optimal but I honestly wouldn't be that surprised if it was for reasons I won't get into right now. I know that Grubby(top wc3 player) uses mouse3 often.
-The ` key - In WC3, you can use the ` key to select idle workers, this won't be terribly hard to pick up for BW players but stuff like ` SHIFT ```` to select 5 idle workers quickly is something that is a good thing to learn before SC2 comes out.
-SHIFT ADDING TO GROUPS - This one is huge, I THINK is actually also in BW so if you people don't use it then you should start...
However it is easier to train because doing it with buildings might be the most useful function of it which YOU CAN'T do in BW. If you don't know what it is.. eg. Say you have 2 facts in control group 5 and you have just started construction of a 3rd one, you click on the constructing(or finished) factory and then click SHIFT + 5. All 3 facts are now in control group 5.
-Custom hotkeys - This one is fucking monster size. As I'm sure no one will be surprised, I do think that there is usually a correct way to do something. Whether or not there is a right way for everyone, there is definitely a right way for each individual person and sometimes it takes time to figure it out. People who can figure out what hotkeys are optimal for them now will be at a huge advantage, I doubt anyone would argue that. However even the people who are using custom hotkeys in BW.. this wasn't good enough for me because you are practicing using them in conjunction with a bunch of other obsolete crap.. all the stuff I have mentioned and more. How can you figure out what button you want to be attack if you are currently controlling up to 10 groups of units sometimes and usually more than 3. Using my attack key right now for BW would be terrible, but for WC3 and SC2 it's great.
I am certain there are other reasons but I think I got most of the important ones so I'll leave it at that for now. I am certain most or all of you will keep playing BW whether you agree with me or not but the best advice you can possibly get is that you need to focus on relearning things to do them in the most efficient way!
Remember when you went from double clicking on a unit to select multiples of it's type to CTRL + Clicking on that unit for the same result. This is like that 100 times over.
As always if anyone wants to play WC3 or talk about this stuff my msn is Forced-Attrition at hotmail.com
I never liked using tab to cycle unit groups. Because it forms bad habits imo. 1, you won't see what unit is closer for casting spells and what not. 2, (if like in wc3 units order themselves by cost/value) if the units die you will tab over X amount of times and not find them and waste time.
When I play wc3, I don't really use the MBS that much and it doesn't effect the game as much either because it is a low unit count game. I still do well. Again MBS, doesn't tell you what structure is producing units and u cant cycle the buildings individually to check/recheck timing and shit like that. Its not even that great. I never even used it at blizzcon when playing seriously.
I think the mouse3 thing is just a feature from warcraft that has been around since before side scrolling. you have to do this in wc1 iirc, and lots of players use the arrow keys for small movements and crap too. (boxer does).
ofc, shift add/remove is in bw. Its in wc2. Very important.
I use custom hotkeys in wc3 (because im ud and ud nukes) so I made all heroes (even non UD ones) ZXC (v=ultra) and B is open spell pane when you level up. Its so easy to use especially in clutch battles and shit.
I think when I start sc2 I'm going to map all keys to match the onscreen UI display so that way it will even teach me the new hold position, patrol, and other shit locations. I can never figure out which button is which in wc3, I always use the shortcuts. I don't know if that's good or bad.
The only problem with that imo, is if you play on another computer besides your own you will have to bring the customkey txt document around with you or you will have to manually change all the shit every time. Some PC cafes don't allow you to change shit in windows, so you can be fucked.
I think the micro in WC3 is entirely different from StarCraft. You have to get used to more fast-paced action, unlike in WC3 the units have 300 hp and over, while units in SC have a smaller amount of HP, die faster and are replaced even faster. Not to mention the practice to control 3 or 4 groups of units properly. I think that is the biggest factor in staying with StarCraft in preparation for SC2.
MBS is not that big of a deal. The macro will be even more similar to SC than to WC3. You can't just press 5, which selects all of your gateways, and then click Z to build zealots at all of them. You need to click Z for the number of zealots you'd like, clicking one only builds it at 1 gateway, clicking twice would make another gateway build one, and so on. Also the sheer number of buildings while be different in SC2 compared to WC3. Players seldom got over 2 of any building that built units.
On December 22 2008 16:07 rushz0rz wrote: I think the micro in WC3 is entirely different from StarCraft. You have to get used to more fast-paced action, unlike in WC3 the units have 300 hp and over, while units in SC have a smaller amount of HP, die faster and are replaced even faster. Not to mention the practice to control 3 or 4 groups of units properly. I think that is the biggest factor in staying with StarCraft in preparation for SC2.
MBS is not that big of a deal. The macro will be even more similar to SC than to WC3. You can't just press 5, which selects all of your gateways, and then click Z to build zealots at all of them. You need to click Z for the number of zealots you'd like, clicking one only builds it at 1 gateway, clicking twice would make another gateway build one, and so on. Also the sheer number of buildings while be different in SC2 compared to WC3. Players seldom got over 2 of any building that built units.
You only need more than 2 control groups when flanking and even then you might not ever need more then 3 just because the swarm AI is so good.
As far as the micro.. Mauraders = Dryads etc........... Actually.. I could continue to pick apart your whole post but you know what.. I'm sure enough of myself that I don't feel the need to refute your misguided perceptions. If some of you want to live in denial then go for it.
Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
On December 22 2008 15:03 CharlieMurphy wrote: I never liked using tab to cycle unit groups. Because it forms bad habits imo. 1, you won't see what unit is closer for casting spells and what not. 2, (if like in wc3 units order themselves by cost/value) if the units die you will tab over X amount of times and not find them and waste time.
When I play wc3, I don't really use the MBS that much and it doesn't effect the game as much either because it is a low unit count game. I still do well. Again MBS, doesn't tell you what structure is producing units and u cant cycle the buildings individually to check/recheck timing and shit like that. Its not even that great. I never even used it at blizzcon when playing seriously.
I think the mouse3 thing is just a feature from warcraft that has been around since before side scrolling. you have to do this in wc1 iirc, and lots of players use the arrow keys for small movements and crap too. (boxer does).
ofc, shift add/remove is in bw. Its in wc2. Very important.
I use custom hotkeys in wc3 (because im ud and ud nukes) so I made all heroes (even non UD ones) ZXC (v=ultra) and B is open spell pane when you level up. Its so easy to use especially in clutch battles and shit.
I think when I start sc2 I'm going to map all keys to match the onscreen UI display so that way it will even teach me the new hold position, patrol, and other shit locations. I can never figure out which button is which in wc3, I always use the shortcuts. I don't know if that's good or bad.
The only problem with that imo, is if you play on another computer besides your own you will have to bring the customkey txt document around with you or you will have to manually change all the shit every time. Some PC cafes don't allow you to change shit in windows, so you can be fucked.
first paragraph - it always uses the closes unit / don't tab by memory use your eyes, if you go to far shift tab, its much faster then clicking the unit always
second paragraph - mbs will be crazy fucking important in SC2 obv and reguardless of that the fact that you have handicapped yourself is irrelevant and completely opposite of the nature of my post, the building that produces the unit will always be the one closest to being idle.. you will get good enough that you dont ever need to look but even if that wasnt the case MBS will still be necessary.. I don't think I need to explain this.
third paragraph - if i recall correctly, you don't recall correctly. and in SC1 the mouse 3 scroll is garbage and unusable. arrow movements is so far inferior.. move whole hand out of position or mouse3/move mouse slightly? The fact that it is obviously inferior but has shown to be useful highlights my point
4thparagraph(sentence) - Yea, you can do it in SC1, but it's fucking severely gimped because you can only do it to units and you can only control 12 units. doing it to buildings it shines in SC2 but say you have 9 racks building.. how often are you going to have a group with <4 marines building to add them too? It's barely useful in SC1
Yeah I had similar keys to you for a while although not ZXCV cuz they are less accessible.. but I had B for skill for a long time.. I definitely agree B is optimal for a left handed keyboarder because then you can combo off easily like B - Z, B- Q
B-Z will always be faster the Z-Z ETC
This is how it all started for me years ago lol... I'm a perfectionist and this is where it got me.
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
The world isn't that random.. you can predict certain things with remarkable reliability if you use your head.
-blizzard will patch SC2 until it is great. -there will be money in professional SC2 -mbs will be in SC2 -that wasn't my only point
I don't know what it's like to (not) think like you.
Do you honestly think SC2 dying in a few months is possible?
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
so true XD
Even if ANY or all of this shit was possible.. I actually enjoy doing what I'm doing. I think people use those excuses because you think stuff like this is hard work.. I absolutely love thinking about this stuff and applying it to my game. The sad thing is SC is important to a lot of you but you use these excuses to keep from working hard because then you don't have to admit to yourselves that you either don't like doing it or you don't think you have what it takes to compete.
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
Man I hate posters who think the world is this random.. you can predict certain things with remarkable reliability if you use your head.
-blizzard will patch SC2 until it is great. -there will be money in professional SC2 -mbs will be in SC2 -that wasn't my only point
I don't know what it's like to (not) think like you.
Do you honestly think SC2 dying in a few months is possible?
I know i was exaggerating but to me it seems like a waste of time. Why spend the time you have left on bw trying to play wc3 to get used to mbs. Improve at bw because of your love for the game not so you could develop good habits for sc2 because how are you going to know what those good habits are for sc2. Do you see bw pros playing wc3 so they can get used to mbs and become a pro in sc2 2. Honestly we have no idea if sc2 can become a esport. So why are you trying to prepare yourself to become some kind of sc2 progamer. Is that the only reason why you're going to play sc2? To become good and make money off it?
On December 22 2008 17:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Why would you prepare yourself for sc2? Sc2 isnt even out yet and we dont know when it will be we have no idea if its going to be like bw or if it will just die in a few months. Its just seems like a waste of time. Better using that time on bw. Why try to prepare yourself for sc2 when the beta isnt even out for it. Blizzard might all of sudden remove mbs or something and you wasted your time playing wc3 trying to prepare yourself for sc2 by getting used to mbs.
Man I hate posters who think the world is this random.. you can predict certain things with remarkable reliability if you use your head.
-blizzard will patch SC2 until it is great. -there will be money in professional SC2 -mbs will be in SC2 -that wasn't my only point
I don't know what it's like to (not) think like you.
Do you honestly think SC2 dying in a few months is possible?
I know i was exaggerating but to me it seems like a waste of time. Why spend the time you have left on bw trying to play wc3 to get used to mbs. Honestly we have no idea if sc2 can become a esport. So why are you trying to prepare yourself to become some kind of sc2 progamer. Is that the only reason why you're going to play sc2? To become good and make money off it?
Wtf read my post.. it's not just MBS.. Yes I do have an idea that SC2 can become an esport.. it 100% will.. whether it would or not if blizzard wasn't going to stop at nothing to accomplish that is another question. They have money, they have desire, they have talent and they have an unprecedented following already... not to mention a flawless track record.
RL is a pretty predictable place a lot of the time.
Yes my goal is to make money off of it someway or another, as I said in my previous post.. I love it, I love figuring it out, just because I can't play enough to figure strats out doesn't mean there isn't an infinite amount of things that can't be figured out.
I think the changes you are doing to improve your game for bw is nice and shows your love for bw but i dont know why you're doing stuff to get used to sc2. So you could have a head start from other people on the chance that sc2 actually becomes a esport?
On December 22 2008 18:02 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I think the changes you are doing to improve your game for bw is nice and shows your love for bw but i dont know why you're doing stuff to get used to sc2.
Well thanks, I didn't think I had to explain that part but I don't mind.. I guess I feel that though it might not happen all at once, SC2 is the future of RTS. WCG dropped BW and though Korea might resist for a bit.. they will switch... I mean how can a person not be excited about the sequel to their favorite game when the conditions are so perfect.
Blizzard is loaded. They care so much about making SC2 the best competitive game ever and have a perfect track record. Those 3 things alone is almost enough to convince anyone SC2 is the future. There isn't really any mystery about it. BW is great in Korea but I don't think it will get that much bigger in Korea and how can you expect to get new people to start playing it after SC2 is released.. it will stagnate very quickly.. the money won't be there anymore.
Blizzard will undoubtedly have huge tournaments as they did just this year in WC3, a 5 year old game. And now they are more and more loaded and there will be more and more money. Enough to grab peoples attention. Not to BW, to SC2.
Anyways this post is kind of scattered but I don't feel like editing so hopefully the logic can be followed as is.
Well good luck. I think im skeptical not because i dont believe in blizzard but because it seems like such a different game from bw. Yeah theres still old units from bw like mutas but features like mbs and automine makes me worried and it would really suck for you if you spent all that time and sc2 actually became a disaster.
You won´t gain as much of an advantage as you might think. The aspects of gameplay you are "training" for is basic stuff refined for ease of use. It is supposed to be as intuitive as possible, that is the point of the changes (compared to SC:BW).
If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
The ONLY thing sc2 has in common with war3 is the MBS mechanic.... That's it... infact playing war3 could be bad for you since it screwes up the logic you use when you play the game. War3 gives the advantage to the player that sits idle and don't use his money and lumber in no/low upkeep. Do this in SC2 and see what happends....
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
On December 22 2008 19:06 Integra wrote: The ONLY thing sc2 has in common with war3 is the MBS mechanic.... That's it... infact playing war3 could be bad for you since it screwes up the logic you use when you play the game. War3 gives the advantage to the player that sits idle and don't use his money and lumber in no/low upkeep. Do this in SC2 and see what happends....
You obviously didn't read my post and have never played Warcraft 3.
On December 22 2008 18:54 Unentschieden wrote: You won´t gain as much of an advantage as you might think. The aspects of gameplay you are "training" for is basic stuff refined for ease of use. It is supposed to be as intuitive as possible, that is the point of the changes (compared to SC:BW).
I kind of agree with you.. If people are smart and have the constitution to focus only on good habit building from the get-go without putting any emphasis on winning, this will marginalize my advantage. Either way it is still an advantage, I will be able to immediately go into game theory and being ahead of the curve like that is easily worth it.. I am losing nothing by doing these things.
By theorizing this early, I am also allowing myself to make large changes that I wouldn't want to make when SC2 is out, such as switching to mousing with my left hand.
I also think many people will have a hard time focusing only on habits when ladder is going.. it takes time to re-develop habits in a thing like an RTS. I didn't even remember SC2 had MBS when I played it at blizzcon.
They also aren't always intuitive... A ton of people don't even know all the ways to be more efficient in WAR3.
I am a total nub at making long posts, so please forgive me if I sound retarded in this. I just feel that I have to say something about sc/war3 to sc2 in general. This post is fairly long so if you want the summary, go to the final 2 paragraphs. Also please pm me if you have issues regarding this post's format. Well then, let's get started in this analysis shall we?
On December 22 2008 14:12 inReacH wrote: 1. Let's start with what is maybe the biggest one.. MBS MBS is in Warcraft 3 and SC 2 but not in BW. ... And guess what... It's obsolete. Some will argue doing something harder than what you have to do will make you more accomplished at the task you're actually training for. It's just not close enough where that kind of thinking is relevant. I used to think this but it's just straight up a different skill. Modern macro doesn't require you to go back to your base. That doesn't mean the skill of fast screen switching is obsolete but that skill is not the same as macro and is much easier.
Some bw players learn macro to get good at bw. And the ones that do it to get good at sc2 can also learn quite a bit of multi-tasking in terms of looking at base and managing armies. I agree that MBS allows a huge hurdle to be put down for players, and regardless of all the hate, it's staying in the game no matter what. Not putting MBS will drive away at least 50% of potential "full-time" sc2ers and the reviews from the gaming press (yea I know they are usually retarded).
Though on a positive note, you can now focus fire units with cannons, sunkens, etc due to MBS.
Other things I have to add about MBS: rally points. The inclusion of MBS in sc2 allows very easy rally pointing/changing. This means players don't have to use the screen hotkeys to change rally points efficiently (this was shown in the translated gorush vid). Also, the fact unit rallies are not on "move" means that units will attack whatever is in their way. This is good and bad. However, players can prevent this by multi-tasking. They can manage the units coming out of their buildings to make sure they commit to what they want their reinforcements to do. So in a way, this can be a new skill players can learn to differentiate themselves from the lesser players.
2. Numeral hotkey Usage Brood War is an old game, modern RTS games are being designed to allow you to be neat at all times, a big part of this is not having more units/buildings than you can fit in your hotkeys. Zerg got fucked on this one in BW but it's not going to be like that after SC2. You will easily be able to play a game with only 2 hotkeys but 4 will probably be more common -Production buildings -CC/Nexus AND tech buildings -Army 1 -Army 2 to allow flanking The better players will have observers/shuttles and units of importance hotkeyed also, but it will rarely go higher than #7 I think and usually be much fewer. If you use your head you can determine what numeral hotkeys will be optimal for you in SC2 and start practicing them in WC3. Perfect control over these kinds of things is important and WC3 is an opportunity to practice it.
I agree with you here, though some of this is a part of MBS as well. Despite the fact wc3 has a low amount of buildings, some players group identical production buildings together to make units. Although from what I hear, the sc2 system implements a system where one press only makes one building produce the unit. So in a way, this can be good or bad depending on the situation.
However, there will be units that won't be used with hotkeys because they are simply inefficient, but this is for players to figure out for themselves. And I am pretty sure at least 5-6 group hotkeys will be used for sc2, though it maybe just me. I currently use 6-8 in wc3 depending on the situation along with the f1-3 keys.
-TAB - Allow you to cycle through unit types that are selected eg. 3 zeals 1 HT in control group 1, PUSH: 1, TAB, -HOTKEY FOR STORM-, leftclick
-SHIFT+TAB - Allow you to cycle backwards through unit types that are selected(opposite of TAB)
I think I remember reading somewhere that you cannot use the tab system for sc2, I may be wrong on this aspect.
-MOUSE3 - In WC3, you have the option to turn off MOUSE SCROLLING(that is when you move your mouse to the edge of the screen and it scrolls the map. Why would anyone possibly do this?
Wow lol I didn't even know about this and I played wc3 seriously since RoC release until mid '07. I personally think this isn't that big of a deal, so I'm fine with this.
-The ` key - In WC3, you can use the ` key to select idle workers, this won't be terribly hard to pick up for BW players but stuff like ` SHIFT ```` to select 5 idle workers quickly is something that is a good thing to learn before SC2 comes out.
This is one of the biggest changes from sc to sc2 imo. I'm not sure about the hotkey now, but when I played it at blizzcon 07, it was the f10 key (wtf?). This allows players to minimize worker idle times so much it's not even funny. It's a pretty good feature especially for hectic situations where you have to spend your apm in other areas. Even though everyone is already going to buy sc2 whether they like it or not, this is one of the things wc3 players HATED about when they tried to play sc. By adding this feature, blizzard easily integrates the wc3 players, the wow players(lol they probably will stick to their damned mmo), and any potential newcomers in the blizzard scene.
-SHIFT ADDING TO GROUPS - This one is huge, I THINK is actually also in BW so if you people don't use it then you should start...
However it is easier to train because doing it with buildings might be the most useful function of it which YOU CAN'T do in BW. If you don't know what it is.. eg. Say you have 2 facts in control group 5 and you have just started construction of a 3rd one, you click on the constructing(or finished) factory and then click SHIFT + 5. All 3 facts are now in control group 5.
It's in brood war so it doesnt really matter. The only difference is shift adding buildings to groups, this is basically an extension of the MBS section of your original post.
-Custom hotkeys - This one is fucking monster size. As I'm sure no one will be surprised, I do think that there is usually a correct way to do something. Whether or not there is a right way for everyone, there is definitely a right way for each individual person and sometimes it takes time to figure it out. People who can figure out what hotkeys are optimal for them now will be at a huge advantage, I doubt anyone would argue that. However even the people who are using custom hotkeys in BW.. this wasn't good enough for me because you are practicing using them in conjunction with a bunch of other obsolete crap.. all the stuff I have mentioned and more. How can you figure out what button you want to be attack if you are currently controlling up to 10 groups of units sometimes and usually more than 3. Using my attack key right now for BW would be terrible, but for WC3 and SC2 it's great.
For wc3, it can be great. Personally I never used it and I just learned all the defaults, but I agree with you on the fact that it can greatly benefit many players and it can help players create their own handling style for sc2.
I'd say I am 50/50 with your post, since I did used to take wc3 seriously and attempt to change to completely sc. A lot of the quirks about the sc bothered me until I got used to them, and I had first-hand experience in seeing people shifting away from sc to go back to wc3 (mostly due to lack of winning, but also due to UI). When I played wc3 from time to time, I would notice my multi-tasking increased GREATLY after playing sc for quite some time, due to the fact I had to constantly go back to my base to manage things, as well as operating multiple harrass groups.
Warcraft 3 can be a good way to learn the new sc2 ui, as I went into blizzcon 07 with a primarily wc3 background, and I didn't have troubles getting used to the UI. But sc is a good way to improve your multitasking ability and strategical mindset. Warcraft 3 is usually based on who executes a build better, so you can never really learn the concept of tactics. This was further shown in the Yellow vs Sonkie sc2 video from blizzcon08, where sonkie would constantly sit in his base having no map control or any sort of strategy/tactics/harrassment in mind.
Edit: This post was written from a player with a war3 background and a past season C- iccup T player with around one year of sc experience.
Ok I'm not going to quote your long post because it makes my posts wayyyyy too long but this is in response to Ginseng
First off I want to say great post, definitely nice to read something which isn't just a different variation of dismissiveness. I'll label my responses to each of your points via the # of my quotes you used.
First Point:
I do agree that fast screen changing is a hugely important skill in RTS.. Being able to flash back to your base to do something quickly while maintaining control in a situation that needs almost every second you have is one of the greatest things about RTS games. I think Starcrafts macro is a great exhibition of this behavior and good at giving a player practice for other situations where such a skill is necessary.
However, I believe that it's not in the same category as most of the skills I went over.. I don't think it's nearly as fundamental and I think that even if a player never played SC, that if they were playing WC3 or SC2 enough to be competitive this skill would come passively. I don't think it's something that needs to be given special attention in anticipation of SC2.
I'm going to reference this video several times in this post and I'll post it here where I'll point out that we can see Moon doing this screen changing very well before he put any time into starcraft, it's just something you start doing when you get very fast with hotkeys and very good control.
Fast screen changes always use hotkeys.. I'll say again that I think anyone who plays enough to compete(like 10+ hours/day) while focusing on improving will get this skill quite easily. If the macro in SC2 was the same in SC1 I DO think it would be worth it.. simply because mastering that macro is so so so difficult.
I also wanted to mention that you pointed out something really important and that is several things that MBS adds to the game. Dynamic rally points is really going to raise the ceiling of perfection that can be administered over your army. If I would have thought of this specifically I am certain I would have posted it several times in the past. Really a great point.
[B]Second Point[\b] we agree Third Point I'd really like to know the answer to this.. I can't imagine it being not present.. that would mean that zerg has an advantage for building hotkeys because all hats can be used with 1 number but not gateways/stargates etc It would also defeat a large part of the usefullness of unlimited army selection.
Really I doubt this and would be astounded.
Fourth point Dude don't dismiss this! Mouse 3 is insanely insanely useful If you watch the moon video again look when he does mouse scroll it's always by a very very very small distance. Using mouse3 to do this is sooooooooo good.. lol.. I am literally playing wc3 without mouse scrolling on at all and I think I will eventually try to master using them in conjunction but I don't know.. it's really good... I might just stick with this.
I have pretty shitty mouse control because I just switched from my right to my left hand and I can scroll from the very left of a map to the very right of a map faster with mouse3 than with maximum mouse scroll.. seriously. It's so fast and accurate... Ok enough emphasis
Fifth point we agree
Sixth point There is actually a very large difference between shift adding in SC1 and WC3 First of course the buildings is huge. but also the # of units you have to do it to in SC1 makes it impossible sometimes as I said before. The fact that you have many less units that need to be grouped in WC3 and that you have no limit in SC2 is very similar.
Hotkeys Don't know what to say, you are handicapping yourself severely by not using them.
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
Do you mean Armies of Exigo?
Really it has all those thing I mentioned?
Go play Armies of Exigo if you want to only play the campaign and against the computer. It's a decent game with a microscopic community, which makes it a waste of time.
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
Do you mean Armies of Exigo?
Really it has all those thing I mentioned?
Go play Armies of Exigo if you want to only play the campaign and against the computer. It's a decent game with a microscopic community, which makes it a waste of time.
Yeah I definitely wasn't planning on it, was just curious if that's what he meant.
WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep).
Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol.
The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2......
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
Do you mean Armies of Exigo?
Really it has all those thing I mentioned?
Go play Armies of Exigo if you want to only play the campaign and against the computer. It's a decent game with a microscopic community, which makes it a waste of time.
Except if all he's playing for is to "prepare for SC2" then it doesnt matter at all what the size of the community is, or what can be accomplished playing the game?
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
On December 22 2008 22:48 Ki_Do wrote: the major change i am making for the switch is spending now the 150 bucks with more useful and satisfatory things than with the 3 games
On December 22 2008 22:21 Velr wrote: WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep).
Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol.
The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2......
Go on, waste your time...
Read my post..
It's about fundamentals.. you don't train what you do, you train how you do it. Having heroes/more spells is irrelevant.. and units do die in wc3.. anyways don't bother responding I have no interest in this conversation. I can say with absolute certainty that I've played more SC, more WC3 and more SC2 than you.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
Well the bw scene is much more competitive and though Yellow is kind of dropping the ball lately, he still has so much more experience to use as a resource when he's solving new RTS problems like SC2.
Honestly I know the WC3 player moon is pretty decent at SC now.. I would put a lot of money on him over any bw player with equal existing SC2 experience.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
Well the bw scene is much more competitive and though Yellow is kind of dropping the ball lately, he still has so much more experience to use as a resource when he's solving new RTS problems like SC2.
Honestly I know the WC3 player moon is pretty decent at SC now.. I would put a lot of money on him over any bw player with equal existing SC2 experience.
I'm going to reference this video several times in this post and I'll post it here where I'll point out that we can see Moon doing this screen changing very well before he put any time into starcraft, it's just something you start doing when you get very fast with hotkeys and very good control.
From what I've heard Moon was a semi-pro @ SC before switching to WC3.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
Well the bw scene is much more competitive and though Yellow is kind of dropping the ball lately, he still has so much more experience to use as a resource when he's solving new RTS problems like SC2.
Honestly I know the WC3 player moon is pretty decent at SC now.. I would put a lot of money on him over any bw player with equal existing SC2 experience.
I'm going to reference this video several times in this post and I'll post it here where I'll point out that we can see Moon doing this screen changing very well before he put any time into starcraft, it's just something you start doing when you get very fast with hotkeys and very good control.
From what I've heard Moon was a semi-pro @ SC before switching to WC3.
I thought I remembered differently but I can't be sure.. Kind of irrelevant though my point still stands. If that's the case Moon would absolutely smash anyone the world with equal SC2 experience.. watch for it when SC2 comes.
On December 22 2008 23:26 inReacH wrote: Read my post..
It's about fundamentals.. you don't train what you do, you train how you do it. Having heroes/more spells is irrelevant.. and units do die in wc3.. anyways don't bother responding I have no interest in this conversation. I can say with absolute certainty that I've played more SC, more WC3 and more SC2 than you.
Oh i had a good share of SC/BW (5-6 years?) and a good share of WC3-Classic (rank ~85 1on1 northrend ladder) until the game bored me out (never played much tft except dota :p).
The skillset required for WC3 is just entirely different from that required for SC/BW.. You may be comfortable with the controls but you will use entirely different *moves* more often. *Tab* for Instance is extremely important and nice in WC3, it won't be that good in SC2 because the game simply has not the amount of Spells that WC3 has and it for sure has not the amount of really spammable spells that WC3 has.
By your logic I could also play Footmen Frenzy to become better at SC2 because I learn to manage the UI. There is no Macro in WC3, you will get better with the UI, but by playing WC3 your focus will lie on other parts of the UI.
And btw... To *rock the house* when SC2 comes out there is 1 simple thing to do it: "Get into the beta".
On December 22 2008 23:26 inReacH wrote: Read my post..
It's about fundamentals.. you don't train what you do, you train how you do it. Having heroes/more spells is irrelevant.. and units do die in wc3.. anyways don't bother responding I have no interest in this conversation. I can say with absolute certainty that I've played more SC, more WC3 and more SC2 than you.
Oh i had a good share of SC/BW (5-6 years?) and a good share of WC3-Classic (rank ~85 1on1 northrend ladder) until the game bored me out (never played much tft except dota :p).
The skillset required for WC3 is just entirely different from that required for SC/BW.. You may be comfortable with the controls but you will use entirely different *moves* more often. *Tab* for Instance is extremely important and nice in WC3, it won't be that good in SC2 because the game simply has not the amount of Spells that WC3 has and it for sure has not the amount of really spammable spells that WC3 has.
By your logic I could also play Footmen Frenzy to become better at SC2 because I learn to manage the UI. There is no Macro in WC3, you will get better with the UI, but by playing WC3 your focus will lie on other parts of the UI.
And btw... To *rock the house* when SC2 comes out there is 1 simple thing to do it: "Get into the beta".
Footmen Frenzy eh...
Just stop posting dude.. I don't feel like picking apart your posts every time but I can't help myself because I wouldn't want you to think that you are on to something.. you're out of your element here.
Tab will have many functions.. It is very likely players will have all their tech buildings/forges in the same group.. possibly in the same group as their CC's
Also.. stalkers, lurkers, seige mode............ bla.. think before you post.
Yeah I have a beta key, I went to blizzcon from Canada to guarentee getting one.. Ok can you stop posting now?
Rank 85 in ROC is not an accomplishment btw.. I was #1/#2 deep into last season and made invitational ladder.. I actually don't consider that an accomplishment either lol..
EDIT: I don't mean to be so rude and I think if you read my response to the long post earlier in this page you will see I am reacting to you and that is not my nature.
Dismissive things like "WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS" is quite enfuriating seeing as how you are not only wrong but you are also neglecting 90% of my post.
I told one guy not to post twice, after he said this
On December 22 2008 22:21 Velr wrote: WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep).
Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol.
The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2......
Go on, waste your time...
Pretty obvious he didn't read my post and then said I was wasting my time based on preconceived conclusions he's come to about this concept.. how am I supposed to respond to that?
Read my response on page 2 to someone who actually read things/posted constructively even though he didn't agree with me completely.
I'm not trying to bash people but.. some people are kind of..
Honestly I guess I'm just not used to people who express things their unsure of as matter of factly contradicting people making the original point. If he wanted to question the usefullness of tab in SC2 he could have said "Hey what about this"
And I could have told him about buildings being tabbed and that almost every unit in SC2 has an activatable ability lol.. even though.. there is ample information for him to find this stuff out on his own.
On December 23 2008 00:38 FrozenArbiter wrote: inReach, stop telling people to stop posting.
EDIT: Honestly, reading through this thread I'm getting pretty sick of your attitude, it's extremely unpleasant.
And honestly, this should probably be a blog.
THIS. You need to stop labeling everybody idiot/retard and stating that they didnt read your post. I did, and I still dont get the point.
And I really can't fathom the reason why you are doing all these "switches". The best thing you can do to train for sc 2 is to get good at bw. So stop wasting your time and go play some iccup or something. Or get that job back which you quit because of SC2.
On December 22 2008 22:21 Velr wrote: WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep).
Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol.
The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2......
Go on, waste your time...
Pretty obvious he didn't read my post and then said I was wasting my time based on preconceived conclusions he's come to about this concept.. how am I supposed to respond to that?
Read my response on page 2 to someone who actually read things/posted constructively even though he didn't agree with me completely.
I'm not trying to bash people but.. some people are kind of..
Honestly I guess I'm just not used to people who express things their unsure of as matter of factly contradicting people making the original point. If he wanted to question the usefullness of tab in SC2 he could have said "Hey what about this"
And I could have told him about buildings being tabbed and that almost every unit in SC2 has an activatable ability lol.. even though.. there is ample information for him to find this stuff out on his own.
Fine I'll just start ignoring those posters.
Ugh, I don't even disagree a lot of the time but you state things in such a rude manner "You are out of your league", "Re-think your life", "I hate posters that.." (speaking of someone in 3rd person is kinda rude), "stop posting"...
Content is fine, but you are being extremely un-diplomatic.
Nobody is going to listen to you if that's how you deal with people who either don't understand what you are saying or don't agree with you. It's exactly what happened in the MBS threads (especially early on).
EDIT: Hm, it seems this thread doesn't show up on the left hand section when I moved it to blogs.. Guess I'll move it back to SC2 for now.
On December 23 2008 00:38 FrozenArbiter wrote: inReach, stop telling people to stop posting.
EDIT: Honestly, reading through this thread I'm getting pretty sick of your attitude, it's extremely unpleasant.
And honestly, this should probably be a blog.
THIS. You need to stop labeling everybody idiot/retard and stating that they didnt read your post. I did, and I still dont get the point.
And I really can't fathom the reason why you are doing all these "switches". The best thing you can do to train for sc 2 is to get good at bw. So stop wasting your time and go play some iccup or something. Or get that job back which you quit because of SC2.
How about you go click show all pages and then CTRL + F and count the number of times I used the word retard or idiot...
Pretty funny you chose to say that in the same post where you claim to have read my posts.
And then you go on to contradict everything I've said because... in your words "you don't get the point" I'm not sure why you think the fact that you don't "get it" means I'm wasting my time.. even if someone disagreed with me completely the logic I'm using is rational and I expect rationality from the people who respond.
On December 23 2008 00:54 inReacH wrote: I told one guy not to post twice, after he said this
On December 22 2008 22:21 Velr wrote: WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep).
Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol.
The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2......
Go on, waste your time...
Pretty obvious he didn't read my post and then said I was wasting my time based on preconceived conclusions he's come to about this concept.. how am I supposed to respond to that?
Read my response on page 2 to someone who actually read things/posted constructively even though he didn't agree with me completely.
I'm not trying to bash people but.. some people are kind of..
Honestly I guess I'm just not used to people who express things their unsure of as matter of factly contradicting people making the original point. If he wanted to question the usefullness of tab in SC2 he could have said "Hey what about this"
And I could have told him about buildings being tabbed and that almost every unit in SC2 has an activatable ability lol.. even though.. there is ample information for him to find this stuff out on his own.
Fine I'll just start ignoring those posters.
Ugh, I don't even disagree a lot of the time but you state things in such a rude manner "You are out of your league", "Re-think your life", "I hate posters that.." (speaking of someone in 3rd person is kinda rude), "stop posting"...
Content is fine, but you are being extremely un-diplomatic.
Nobody is going to listen to you if that's how you deal with people who either don't understand what you are saying or don't agree with you. It's exactly what happened in the MBS threads (especially early on).
EDIT: Hm, it seems this thread doesn't show up on the left hand section when I moved it to blogs.. Guess I'll move it back to SC2 for now.
I find dismissiveness to be more rude then anything I have said. I at least read what people say and address their points. How can I be expected to respond favorably when any controversial theory is met with such a lack of tactfulness by posters who from the sounds of it don't have a lot of experience with the games I'm talking about.
As far as Ki_Do, I was rude and I'll edit my post.. I guess he was just trying to be funny. Before I made a single post I disliked his posting style so much but lately he has gotten a LOT better so I'll get over it.
Let's get back on topic; 1) MBS - Why bother getting used to WC3 MBS when in WC3 it goes something like: 4z-tab-d and in SC2 it will be 4zzzzzzzzzddddd? In addition, wont the rythm be all wrong (IE in WC3 you stop at 50 food because you don't want to go into low upkeep, then you try to jump as high into it as possible at once so you dont suffer a long period of it).
2) I don't see the benefit of this - WC3 has the same unit limit for hotkeys as BW anyway? You are also massively underestimating how many hotkeys you'll use I think.. 4-tab is slower than simply pressing 5, hence I will most likely not key different production facilities on the same key. For instance, if I have factories+barracks I'll probably have them as 4, 5.
In addition you'll definitely want to hotkey things like comsat stations and warp prisms/dropships/overlords as well as raiding groups (ie you don't want your reapers to be keyed with your marines, regardless of how many units you can keep in one hotkey). Likewise with banelings, I'd imagine?
One thing I can see WC3 having an advantage over SC here in terms of practice is that you can key your production buildings with your upgrade buildings.. But seriously, I don't think that's a big deal at all.
3) Tab is huge, I agree. Mouse3 and the ` thingy seem minor (I'm assuming it's a different key on my keyboard, since I have to press shift+´ to get the ` symbol). Shift key to add to groups is in SC.
Ah yes, one more thing - yes, lots of units have different abilities but thinking about it, I think you'll want to key many of them independently anyway. Some examples: Stalkers+Zealots - yeah, the stalkers have blink but the zealots don't have a manual ability, it's automatic. Yet you probably still want them in different keys no? I dunno, at least in BW I'd want to make sure my zealots ran up to the right enemy units. + You want to focus fire stalkers no?
Templars+stalkers is the only combination I can think of where tabbing will be really commonly used for toss. I guess Terran (stim, siege mode) and Zerg (lurker burrow) will have more use for it, but even so, you'll often want to key lurkers in their own group so you can position them more carefully.. Not saying TAB wont be important probably just not AS important as it is in WC3.
Custom hotkeys.. There ARE tools for this for SC, even though they are illegal. You mention how the lack of other features makes this irrelevant, well, you don't know how SC2 will play. You don't know what units you'll be using or what keys will be best suited for them.
One thing you didn't mention is the ALT key, ever since playing a bit of WC3 and Armies of Exigo I keep trying to click ALT in SC to see the HP of units - really good feature, but it doesn't take long to get used to it (and perhaps there'll even be an option to keep it permanently on like I believe there is now in WC3).
All this being said, I don't think it's a bad idea at all to play WC3 in preparation for SC2, if for nothing else but to get used to a 3D RTS.
Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
On December 23 2008 00:38 FrozenArbiter wrote: inReach, stop telling people to stop posting.
EDIT: Honestly, reading through this thread I'm getting pretty sick of your attitude, it's extremely unpleasant.
And honestly, this should probably be a blog.
THIS. You need to stop labeling everybody idiot/retard and stating that they didnt read your post. I did, and I still dont get the point.
And I really can't fathom the reason why you are doing all these "switches". The best thing you can do to train for sc 2 is to get good at bw. So stop wasting your time and go play some iccup or something. Or get that job back which you quit because of SC2.
How about you go click show all pages and then CTRL + F and count the number of times I used the word retard or idiot...
Pretty funny you chose to say that in the same post where you claim to have read my posts.
And then you go on to contradict everything I've said because... in your words "you don't get the point" I'm not sure why you think the fact that you don't "get it" means I'm wasting my time.. even if someone disagreed with me completely the logic I'm using is rational and I expect rationality from the people who respond.
You obviously missed the point there. But I'm going to witdraw from this conversation from now. HFGL.
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
Do you mean Armies of Exigo?
Really it has all those thing I mentioned?
Except tab.
Depends how you configure your TAB button in AoX (personally I hated it when it switched between underground/surface so I changed it to work like in WC3)
Wow Op, just......wow. Your trying to prepare for SC2 mechanics 2 years in advance by playing a game that has EASY mechanics??? What the hell makes you think your going pro? Are you even GOOD at video games? I'd bet my life you will just hit a wall regardless of how much you practice unless you've already made it big in some other game.
Why are you going to have an easier time with SC2 by practicing MBS and mass unit select, in comparison to all those who get B on ICCUP with SBS and 12 unit select? I think those people who are already damn good at SC have a much better shot. How hard is it to go from SBS to just clicking a couple hotkeys? This is like some sort of effing joke, I'm sorry. Everyone on ICCUP is sprinting with weights attached, and because you want an edge in the running competition 2 years down the line, your going to sprint without the weights? Man, just don't quit your day job.
On December 23 2008 07:26 NatsuTerran wrote: Wow Op, just......wow. Your trying to prepare for SC2 mechanics 2 years in advance by playing a game that has EASY mechanics??? What the hell makes you think your going pro? Are you even GOOD at video games? I'd bet my life you will just hit a wall regardless of how much you practice unless you've already made it big in some other game.
Why are you going to have an easier time with SC2 by practicing MBS and mass unit select, in comparison to all those who get B on ICCUP with SBS and 12 unit select? I think those people who are already damn good at SC have a much better shot. How hard is it to go from SBS to just clicking a couple hotkeys? This is like some sort of effing joke, I'm sorry. Everyone on ICCUP is sprinting with weights attached, and because you want an edge in the running competition 2 years down the line, your going to sprint without the weights? Man, just don't quit your day job.
He said he reached 1st place in the TFT ladder last season, assuming that's true (and I have no real reason to doubt it) that'd mean he's pretty good at least.
And if WC3 had the same style of MBS as SC2 then I think he'd have a better point, as it is I think you'll just end up with the wrong muscle memory.
On December 23 2008 02:33 FrozenArbiter wrote: EDIT: Made some additions to 1 and 3.
Let's get back on topic;
1) MBS - Why bother getting used to WC3 MBS when in WC3 it goes something like: 4z-tab-d and in SC2 it will be 4zzzzzzzzzddddd? In addition, wont the rythm be all wrong (IE in WC3 you stop at 50 food because you don't want to go into low upkeep, then you try to jump as high into it as possible at once so you dont suffer a long period of it).
2) I don't see the benefit of this - WC3 has the same unit limit for hotkeys as BW anyway? You are also massively underestimating how many hotkeys you'll use I think.. 4-tab is slower than simply pressing 5, hence I will most likely not key different production facilities on the same key. For instance, if I have factories+barracks I'll probably have them as 4, 5.
In addition you'll definitely want to hotkey things like comsat stations and warp prisms/dropships/overlords as well as raiding groups (ie you don't want your reapers to be keyed with your marines, regardless of how many units you can keep in one hotkey). Likewise with banelings, I'd imagine?
One thing I can see WC3 having an advantage over SC here in terms of practice is that you can key your production buildings with your upgrade buildings.. But seriously, I don't think that's a big deal at all.
3) Tab is huge, I agree. Mouse3 and the ` thingy seem minor (I'm assuming it's a different key on my keyboard, since I have to press shift+´ to get the ` symbol). Shift key to add to groups is in SC.
Ah yes, one more thing - yes, lots of units have different abilities but thinking about it, I think you'll want to key many of them independently anyway. Some examples: Stalkers+Zealots - yeah, the stalkers have blink but the zealots don't have a manual ability, it's automatic. Yet you probably still want them in different keys no? I dunno, at least in BW I'd want to make sure my zealots ran up to the right enemy units. + You want to focus fire stalkers no?
Templars+stalkers is the only combination I can think of where tabbing will be really commonly used for toss. I guess Terran (stim, siege mode) and Zerg (lurker burrow) will have more use for it, but even so, you'll often want to key lurkers in their own group so you can position them more carefully.. Not saying TAB wont be important probably just not AS important as it is in WC3.
Custom hotkeys.. There ARE tools for this for SC, even though they are illegal. You mention how the lack of other features makes this irrelevant, well, you don't know how SC2 will play. You don't know what units you'll be using or what keys will be best suited for them.
One thing you didn't mention is the ALT key, ever since playing a bit of WC3 and Armies of Exigo I keep trying to click ALT in SC to see the HP of units - really good feature, but it doesn't take long to get used to it (and perhaps there'll even be an option to keep it permanently on like I believe there is now in WC3).
All this being said, I don't think it's a bad idea at all to play WC3 in preparation for SC2, if for nothing else but to get used to a 3D RTS.
1) It's not definitively about training what you have to do in WC3, it's about not wasting so so so much time struggling with mechanics that aren't in SC2. It takes up so much of your time. Also people think upkeep changes the game more than it does. You get good normal MBS macroing up to 50 food which takes a bit of time and then you spend your money on upgrades and expanding until you decide to bust up to 80 food cap with quite a bit to do... Also.. microing heroes/few units early game is exactly like doing 6 lings in ZvP or single zeals in PvP.
2) I kind of agree with you here.. top players will definitely be hotkeying many units that need special attention. Bear in mind that they will likely give casters priority so my example from before is possibly inaccurate.. I mean that HT's will be automatically highlighted when in a group with zeals. Raid groups, observers etc will often need groups of their own. However this kind of is another point I could have made as it is the same situation in WC3.. undead and ne will often creep with ghouls or BM/archers while harassing with DK/DH
I'm really looking forward to deciding how to use my hotkey real estate, this is something that I think can't be predicted as accurately as most other things. Fun stuff for sure!
3) I have to plug mouse3 again, it is so awesome..If vertical scrolling wasn't a bit harder than horizontal scrolling then I feel many players would switch to mouse3. I plan on submitting a beta suggestion that for the mouse3 button that would make it so the UI won't get in the way.. EG you could mouse3 even on a units ability and it would grab the map under the UI instead. This is safe because noone ever accidentally mouse3's and it's much better because why should it be harder to scroll vertically? Makes no sense.
"You mention how the lack of other features makes this irrelevant, well, you don't know how SC2 will play. You don't know what units you'll be using or what keys will be best suited for them."
I honestly believe I can theorize and get the keys near perfect after having only played 50 games and confirming it will be very similar to existing trends. I may very well have to switch some stuff around.. I would put money on having switched hotkeys more than anyone else on these forums so I am not very resistant to this prospect at all.
Lastly I can't imagine them not having healthbars always up for SC2.. I don't remember if it was in the build I played but it's quite necessary for a modern RTS imo.
thx for posting.. I think I will try to start using more numeral hotkeys when I'm practicing even if it sometimes seems superfluous.. good to get practice on that.
Saying that kind of made me realize that another huge similarity between WC3 and SC2 is that you are often doing fast screenchanges/multitasking between two sets of units in both games which isn't very often the case in SC1
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why.
It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings.
Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW.
On December 23 2008 07:26 NatsuTerran wrote: Wow Op, just......wow. Your trying to prepare for SC2 mechanics 2 years in advance by playing a game that has EASY mechanics??? What the hell makes you think your going pro? Are you even GOOD at video games? I'd bet my life you will just hit a wall regardless of how much you practice unless you've already made it big in some other game.
Why are you going to have an easier time with SC2 by practicing MBS and mass unit select, in comparison to all those who get B on ICCUP with SBS and 12 unit select? I think those people who are already damn good at SC have a much better shot. How hard is it to go from SBS to just clicking a couple hotkeys? This is like some sort of effing joke, I'm sorry. Everyone on ICCUP is sprinting with weights attached, and because you want an edge in the running competition 2 years down the line, your going to sprint without the weights? Man, just don't quit your day job.
First off, I already addressed your analogy in the OP..
"Some will argue doing something harder than what you have to do will make you more accomplished at the task you're actually training for. It's just not close enough where that kind of thinking is relevant. I used to think this but it's just straight up a different skill. Modern macro doesn't require you to go back to your base. That doesn't mean the skill of fast screen switching is obsolete but that skill is not the same as macro and is much easier."
Second, if I wasn't sure I had the stamina to play 100 hours a week I wouldn't be bothering with any of this and I'd play SC2 for fun and be ok with that. I know what it's like to play 40 games a day. Also, yes I know I learn quickly and believe I can compete. Is that what you want to hear? I'm not even really trying to prove to anyone that this stuff is worth it for me.. I will prove myself when the time comes. Questioning whether or not I'm 'good enough' is irrelevant since I am not posting about myself, I am posting about my ideas.
One more thing.. even if I was a dumb schmuck, things like "What the hell makes you think your going pro?" is something that really shouldn't ever be said to anyone. That's what abusive fathers and shitty teachers say to their kids.
I'm never not going to give 100% at something because it is hard and you really shouldn't encourage that behavior to anyone. This will sound condescending but try to lean that before you have kids.
On December 23 2008 09:44 Bosu wrote: Playing war3 may get you used to the UI of SC2, but the gameplay is nothing alike.
I pretty much agree with you and think the UI is infinitely more important. Gameplay comes naturally with the amount of time you have to put in to compete. I would agree that if you never played a significant amount of SC1, after a certain amount of UI perfection, SC1 would be good to play a bunch of to open your mind. But the UI mastering is so huge.
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why.
It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings.
Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW.
This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene.
"You cannot surprise a player anymore."
Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs.
There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like.
"It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings."
I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent.
Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone.
Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2.
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why.
It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings.
Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW.
This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene.
"You cannot surprise a player anymore."
Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs.
There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like.
"It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings."
I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent.
Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone.
Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2.
Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about.
Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there.
Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always.
For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions.
Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient)
- It just sucks having everything in small amount of hotkeys. When I played TvZ I had marines in 1, medivacs in 2, tanks in 3 and nighthawks in 4. Barracks in 5, factoys in 6, starports in 7 and CC's in 8.
Eight hotkeys.
- SC2 isnt even CLOSE to wc3. SC2 is 100% like BW in every aspect. You dont even notice the MBS or automining after one or two games.
- You say there is not mechanics in SC2? Ooh there is I tell you that. After a giant battle I was at like 2000 mineral, MBS easy? I wouldnt even say its much easier than BW. You have to go (with my hotkeys) 5mmmmm (5 barracks), 6ttt (3 factory), 7e.
On December 23 2008 10:42 Zoler wrote: Nice you pretty much got everything wrong.
- It just sucks having everything in small amount of hotkeys. When I played TvZ I had marines in 1, medivacs in 2, tanks in 3 and nighthawks in 4. Barracks in 5, factoys in 6, starports in 7 and CC's in 8.
Eight hotkeys.
- SC2 isnt even CLOSE to wc3. SC2 is 100% like BW in every aspect. You dont even notice the MBS or automining after one or two games.
- You say there is not mechanics in SC2? Ooh there is I tell you that. After a giant battle I was at like 2000 mineral, MBS easy? I wouldnt even say its much easier than BW. You have to go (with my hotkeys) 5mmmmm (5 barracks), 6ttt (3 factory), 7e.
It still takes a lot of time.
I was going to ignore this post as I think comments like "SC2 is 100% like BW in every aspect" do a good job of demonstrating your burgeoning intelligence on it's own but you actually allow me to make a comparison.
Do this:
5mmmmm 6ttt 7e
Now do this:
1qqqqq TAB www TAB e
Not only is mine blatantly easier/faster, it displays usage of skills you can't practice in BW, TABBING and MBS. It also shows how great custom hotkeys are. Also it should be mentioned that i can set all my combat units to a new rally point with one hotkey and one click instead of 3 of each and I am using up 1/3rd of the numbered hotkeys as you.
This example is not debatable. I am sure someone will point out something but honestly this like 1/100th the point of my post and is still incredibly convincing on it's own.
"You say there is not mechanics in SC2? Ooh there is I tell you that. After a giant battle I was at like 2000 mineral, MBS easy?"
No I never said that I said they are different and the new ones can't be trained effectively in BW.
Also since when does you being bad at MBS macro prove your point? I can say I never had macro nearly that bad when I played SC2 except maybe my very first game when I was using those awful keyboard with infinite extra buttons on the left that I kept hitting lol.
Thank god the kingofthehill/posterwinning area used standard mouse/kb..
The better players will have observers/shuttles and units of importance hotkeyed also
You mean like in BW today? Also this wont be for only the "better" players since its common knowledge to hotkey important stuff and no games will ever consist of players using 2-4hotkeys just because of mbs or increased unit selection.
Do you really play sc? If so i would like to hear your iccup rank .p
The better players will have observers/shuttles and units of importance hotkeyed also
You mean like in BW today? Also this wont be for only the "better" players since its common knowledge to hotkey important stuff and no games will ever consist of players using 2-4hotkeys just because of mbs or increased unit selection.
Do you really play sc? If so i would like to hear your iccup rank .p
C+ was my high But I have reps of beating A ranked demonologist and Twisted that are about a month old. Also for most of the time I played competitively I was playing zerg so I will fully admit I had less opportunity to hotkey anything but my army compared to the opportunity a protoss or terran player would have.
Again this is kind of irrelevant to whether or not my theories are sound..
Considering I have written pages and pages of text in this thread quoting one line written in haste and using it to judge me on isn't really fair... not that what I said was incorrect but I admit that it kind of implies that this is not the case presently in BW which is far from the truth.
Not only is mine blatantly easier/faster, it displays usage of skills you can't practice in BW, TABBING and MBS. It also shows how great custom hotkeys are. Also it should be mentioned that i can set all my combat units to a new rally point with one hotkey and one click instead of 3 of each and I am using up 1/3rd of the numbered hotkeys as you.
This is inferior to doing 1qqqqq2www3e, because sometimes you want to build only W and sometimes only E.
Only reason you would prefer the TAB way, that I can think of off-hand, is that you can keep your hand closer to tab. IE if you dont have to use as many hotkeys for buildings you can have more for units and perhaps get away with only using 1-5 or something?
Rallypoints are a decent reason to have them in one key, guess it depends on what race you play as well (since I don't imagine protoss will use rally points much with warpgates).
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
Not only is mine blatantly easier/faster, it displays usage of skills you can't practice in BW, TABBING and MBS. It also shows how great custom hotkeys are. Also it should be mentioned that i can set all my combat units to a new rally point with one hotkey and one click instead of 3 of each and I am using up 1/3rd of the numbered hotkeys as you.
This is inferior to doing 1qqqqq2www3e, because sometimes you want to build only W and sometimes only E.
Only reason you would prefer the TAB way, that I can think of off-hand, is that you can keep your hand closer to tab. IE if you dont have to use as many hotkeys for buildings you can have more for units and perhaps get away with only using 1-5 or something?
Rallypoints are a decent reason to have them in one key, guess it depends on what race you play as well (since I don't imagine protoss will use rally points much with warpgates).
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
Honestly to discect it even further, since you push 1 and Q with the same finger if you have to tab in the middle is about as fast because your path goes like this
INDEX FINGER:
1
Q
This takes about as long as:
INDEX FINGER:
1
TAB
-while your middle finger gets in position at Q/W or ring finger on E -These two things happen at the same time so the extra key slows you down only very very slightly..
If you are producing from a third production building then you can go throw a shift in there before the tab to go straight to that one with only a single push of tab which doesn't slow you down at all...... actually that only works well if you use your right hand to control the keyboard...... lol
Heh I guess I've been thinking so much as a right handed keyboarder that sometimes I forget some of this stuff doesn't work for most of you.
Bottom line I think having dynamic rally points is going to be an enormous part of the game and I think it will always be worth it to have all your production buildings in a single hotkey.
On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW.
Not only is mine blatantly easier/faster, it displays usage of skills you can't practice in BW, TABBING and MBS. It also shows how great custom hotkeys are. Also it should be mentioned that i can set all my combat units to a new rally point with one hotkey and one click instead of 3 of each and I am using up 1/3rd of the numbered hotkeys as you.
This is inferior to doing 1qqqqq2www3e, because sometimes you want to build only W and sometimes only E.
Only reason you would prefer the TAB way, that I can think of off-hand, is that you can keep your hand closer to tab. IE if you dont have to use as many hotkeys for buildings you can have more for units and perhaps get away with only using 1-5 or something?
Rallypoints are a decent reason to have them in one key, guess it depends on what race you play as well (since I don't imagine protoss will use rally points much with warpgates).
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
When I still played WC3 I used this hotkeys:
1-2: army 3: tier 1 rax 4: tier 2 rax (if I had more than 1 type I tabbed through them) 5: altar 9: upgrades 0: main + supply usually (to keep count easier, use abilities on barrows, upgrade zigs etc.)
Hotkeys 6-8 were fluent depending on the race I played and according to my immediate needs.
So it would put my number of hotkeys at 7-10 which is not really less than in SC (and that's with MBS and less units/buildings!). Saying that mbs and tab will reduce the number of hotkeys is just plain wrong. Maybe for the beginners but as players will get better and better they'll start to use more hotkeys for more control because in some situations TAB just isn't enough.
Oh, and I've just found a good question to ask Blizzard about: hotkeying map locations
Not only is mine blatantly easier/faster, it displays usage of skills you can't practice in BW, TABBING and MBS. It also shows how great custom hotkeys are. Also it should be mentioned that i can set all my combat units to a new rally point with one hotkey and one click instead of 3 of each and I am using up 1/3rd of the numbered hotkeys as you.
This is inferior to doing 1qqqqq2www3e, because sometimes you want to build only W and sometimes only E.
Only reason you would prefer the TAB way, that I can think of off-hand, is that you can keep your hand closer to tab. IE if you dont have to use as many hotkeys for buildings you can have more for units and perhaps get away with only using 1-5 or something?
Rallypoints are a decent reason to have them in one key, guess it depends on what race you play as well (since I don't imagine protoss will use rally points much with warpgates).
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
When I still played WC3 I used this hotkeys:
1-2: army 3: tier 1 rax 4: tier 2 rax (if I had more than 1 type I tabbed through them) 5: altar 9: upgrades 0: main + supply usually (to keep count easier, use abilities on barrows, upgrade zigs etc.)
Hotkeys 6-8 were fluent depending on the race I played and according to my immediate needs.
So it would put my number of hotkeys at 7-10 which is not really less than in SC (and that's with MBS and less units/buildings!). Saying that mbs and tab will reduce the number of hotkeys is just plain wrong. Maybe for the beginners but as players will get better and better they'll start to use more hotkeys for more control because in some situations TAB just isn't enough.
Oh, and I've just found a good question to ask Blizzard about: hotkeying map locations
Even if people use all 10 hotkeys every game which WILL NOT happen.. it's still reducing the # of different thing you need hotkeys for from well over 10 to between 5 and 10 depending on style and game length. I personally would rather push tab than move my hand way out of position to hit the higher numbers.. It will be race/preference dependant but you can't deny that in SC there was way over 10 things people would hotkey if they could, and now using 10 would mean you are using them terribly inefficiently.
It sounds like you think having to hotkey alot of stuff is bad (which i don't agree with). Anything that makes the game harder (but not unmanagable) should not be removed in my opinion. I really do not like the "dumbing" down of SC to SC2. Be it the hotkeys or MBS.
On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote: I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay!
He already quit his job, as he said in his previous post, "for a game that hasn't been released yet". Makes me wonder if this is just a troll (who puts really some time and effort into this).
He is having quite a bit of fun as you can see from the quality of his posts and has made quite a believeable and wacky character for himself.
I have noticed he has these following character traits that are quite(too) pronounced:
Arrogance (IE. "I have played WC and SC for 4 days with my off hand and can play it competently, I am not as fast but I will be soon", etc.)
Attacking critics with random comments (IE. "...you should never aspire to become a scientist", "are you a creationist or evolutionist?" etc.)
Knowledge of WC3 (I used to play WC3 a lot, I know what hes saying is quite accurate)
Machine-like thinking (IE. His theories on how SC2 will be when it comes out)
Over the top (IE. he quit his job for a game that hasn't come out yet, overly in-depth with which finger pushing what button, etc.)
From these, I conclude that he is a very entertaining troll poster who hides it incredibly well, providing us 2 extremely entertaining threads. The posters who gets angry at him make me laugh so much after his comments.
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why.
It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings.
Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW.
This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene.
"You cannot surprise a player anymore."
Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs.
There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like.
"It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings."
I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent.
Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone.
Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2.
Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about.
Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there.
Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always.
For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions.
Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient)
Don´t be so hung up about the word suprise. What is important isn´t "suprising" the enemy since, as you said, in a game the options are limited and known to both sides - like chess, actually even more so since there is no hidden information in chess.
How does chess work then? In chess your only chance to gain an advantage is it to make a move the enemy doesn´t make a "correct" answer to. Even "bad" moves are good if they confuse your enemy.
You even said it yourself, in your example both players took calculated risks and yet you say that SC would be only about effectivness and efficiency. When your enemy makes a move that gives him an advantage over 75% of your available options you can either negate the advantage by "outplaying" him or by choosing a option from the other 25%, in the best case you do both.
Outplaying is the safe way - you "just" have to work hard to do that, hence why everyone did it and as consequence only players that do it remain to compete against each other.
The problem with RTS of course is that you usually only know about your enemys move for shure when it´s to late - it´s your "skill" to "know" your enemy better than he knows you. You are (and thats what is great about RTS) not calculating risks by looking into a Excel Table but by looking at what and how your enemy plays (to make it meta: also how your enemy used to play in previous games if you have the option) and figure out his "numbers".
On December 23 2008 12:50 inReacH wrote: Even if people use all 10 hotkeys every game which WILL NOT happen.. it's still reducing the # of different thing you need hotkeys for from well over 10 to between 5 and 10 depending on style and game length. I personally would rather push tab than move my hand way out of position to hit the higher numbers.. It will be race/preference dependant but you can't deny that in SC there was way over 10 things people would hotkey if they could, and now using 10 would mean you are using them terribly inefficiently.
Seriously, do you really think it'll be such a bother to use more hotkeys? In SC2 you won't have heroes so your hand won't have to hang near the zxcv keys at all times to use this abilities. Also units won't have as much abilities/won't use them as often with a couple exceptions (just an educated guess). And you don't always have to move your hand out of position to hit the higher numbers: - you can put your army under 0, 9, 8 and use patrol move instead of attack move - with custom hotkeys you can set them all to work well with your hotkey distribution
I think that you are severely overreacting and some of your assumptions are very wrong which might lead to a big disappointment on your side when the actual game comes out.
Edit: Just 2 other things I'd like to add:
1: I've read 'the switch: part 1' and have to give you a big LOL at switching hands and thinking it will actually have any impact on your performance. Keys in WC3 are customizable - guess how many pros switched their main hand because of this?
2: In the op in this thread you've stated that you want to convince people that practicing WC3 is going to be good for SC2... As many people here may confirm, I am a big WC3 fan, I am heavily pro mbs/automining/smartcasting and what not. Now the question for you: If you fail to convince me then how the hell are you going to convince all those hardcore BW fans out there?
On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote: Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me
SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released.
On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW.
I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z).
Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
On December 23 2008 21:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
QFT
And to add up one more argument: It's much easier to switch from BW to WC3 than the other way around. Getting used to mbs and the other stuff shouldn't take more than a couple of games and no more than a week of playing a couple of games/day to use some other mechanics fairly well.
Also to back up FA's post, based on my personal experience yesterday: I get 120apm average while playing WC3, I've launched BW to stomp the comp and check how my apm distribution will look like. I've reached a whooping 66apm... I believe that a week or so of practice could bring my BW apm to >100 but that's not the point, the mechanics/focus of this games are so different that learning WC3 to play SC2 later is really bad idea because you'll have to learn a shitton of stuff you will never ever use there (items and stuff like FA pointed out) while practicing BW you will get better at OVERALL RTS useful mechanics.
On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote: Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me
SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released.
On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW.
I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z).
Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
That doesnt mean it will stay as one, i predict it will be pretty big for a while, and then cool down when people notice it sucks.
On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote: Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me
SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released.
On December 23 2008 12:01 inReacH wrote:
On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW.
I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z).
Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
That doesnt mean it will stay as one, i predict it will be pretty big for a while, and then cool down when people notice it sucks.
I love the fact that you simply KNOW how SC2 WILL SUCK. I presume you have never even played the game.
On December 23 2008 19:32 CalvinStorm wrote: I am pretty sure he is a troll.
He is having quite a bit of fun as you can see from the quality of his posts and has made quite a believeable and wacky character for himself.
I have noticed he has these following character traits that are quite(too) pronounced:
Arrogance (IE. "I have played WC and SC for 4 days with my off hand and can play it competently, I am not as fast but I will be soon", etc.)
Attacking critics with random comments (IE. "...you should never aspire to become a scientist", "are you a creationist or evolutionist?" etc.)
Knowledge of WC3 (I used to play WC3 a lot, I know what hes saying is quite accurate)
Machine-like thinking (IE. His theories on how SC2 will be when it comes out)
Over the top (IE. he quit his job for a game that hasn't come out yet, overly in-depth with which finger pushing what button, etc.)
From these, I conclude that he is a very entertaining troll poster who hides it incredibly well, providing us 2 extremely entertaining threads. The posters who gets angry at him make me laugh so much after his comments.
This. No way anyone can be as stupid and arrogant as OP without being a Troll.
On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote: Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me
SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released.
On December 23 2008 12:01 inReacH wrote:
On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW.
I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z).
Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
That doesnt mean it will stay as one, i predict it will be pretty big for a while, and then cool down when people notice it sucks.
I love the fact that you simply KNOW how SC2 WILL SUCK. I presume you have never even played the game.
No i havent. But how do you know it will be good? Also its in alpha so it prolly doesn't matter. Also, i could tell that like cooking mama sucks even though i haven't played the game (couldn't come up with anything better atm). I'm not blind or anything.' I can clearly tell that the direction the game is going, is very bad. It will be a funny casual RTS if nothing else. But i still dont think its good, as in BW good.
On December 24 2008 07:47 InRaged wrote: MuR)Ernu, so this is based on your imagination, after all. Well then, what is really bad is the direction You are going. Stop trolling.
+1
All people hating on SC2 and all they have is based on their imagination. Seriously.
On December 24 2008 07:47 InRaged wrote: MuR)Ernu, so this is based on your imagination, after all. Well then, what is really bad is the direction You are going. Stop trolling.
lol sorry, always wanted too say this. Touché, and slightly ironical.
I think the essence and intention of your post might be well placed, but your choice of game and reasons to play it are not. What your searching for is a game that closely resembles sc2, so it can be a seamless transition. Too this ends, it has already been mentioned, alot of sc1 builds will work in sc2 (obviously where applicable), and getting into bad habits with HUGE focus on keeping your army alive, and using all your special abilities is defiantly not going the distance. To this ends, i'm not entirely sure if you understand WHY MBS was a bad thing? It was/is bad because it takes you away from your base/s and fucked the whole micro/macro thing (and by choosing wc3, your rather taking that away anyways... they are two games, with two entirely different approaches Blizz even states this; one is a focus on small groups with uber powerful specials and heroes, the other is large armies with pretty much everything largely expendable (or at least opportunity cost))
Also (although i make no claim too be a pro at ether game) i think the losses you'll make by getting bad habits by spending all your time using your hero's supa doopa uber awesome powers, and keeping your whole twelve units alive rather than getting use too even USING the mbs far outweighs the benift you will get when you possibly build 4 barracks at the start of the game too get up too your whole twelve units. Seriously, mbs isn't even that big in wc3. I mean hell, you get punished for having too many guys with high upkeep, so whats the point in building HEEPS of buildings too get too your UBER AWESOME twelve units?
Prehapse you should change tact, and focus on AoX rather than wc3. The lack of hero units, and quantity of normal units you can get makes it much more appealing, and the point it has a limited scene is irrelevant, since you could try vs more than one person ect to make it more challenging (or humiliating, whichever you prefer).
I dont think he is trolling man, he sounds offensive, yes, but he never played the fool with anyone here. plus, his oppinion is a bit annoying for some, i know, but it is true when you compare the revolutions,the complexity and the pimp of Brood War to Star2(UNTIL NOW) purposeful simplicity. There is no doubt that the game is gonna be great, but if it will have room for what happened in 8 years of brood war proscene and still happens no one knows and for definition, for something to surpass the perfect only being perfect+something not perfect-some thing.
On December 24 2008 09:03 Ki_Do wrote: I dont think he is trolling man, he sounds offensive, yes, but he never played the fool with anyone here. plus, his oppinion is a bit annoying for some, i know, but it is true when you compare the revolutions,the complexity and the pimp of Brood War to Star2(UNTIL NOW) purposeful simplicity. There is no doubt that the game is gonna be great, but if it will have room for what happened in 8 years of brood war proscene and still happens no one knows and for definition, for something to surpass the perfect only being perfect+something not perfect-some thing.
~~2 cents that cant buy anything btw.
lol if i had 2 cents for every time i thought YOU were trolling.
Personally i think the distinction should be made: trolling is when your post adds nothing too the forum, only your own subjective opinion and nothing too back it up. Saying SC2 is not, and never will be a good game is not exactly helpful/useful is it?
Just For your info, i was not trolling. I'm sorry if my difference in opinion=Trolling. If my strong opinion about starcraft2 somehow offends you, i am sorry.
Also what is wrong with saying that it is a bad game? We who actually do have some critic for things, get flamed so much. Why should we settle on anything less than perfect anyways? I mean BW is as close as a game gets to perfect right now, i dont think SC2 will top it. Not by a long shot.
Also i usually try to explain what i dont like and why. That makes it even less trolling. Of course, i dont have to explain something that has been explained a hundred times already in MBS threads and ofc the other threads about sc2 too.
"this is based on your imagination" Not exactly, its based on about all info that has been released about SC2. I havent played it yet, but even if i did play it, i dont think it could change my opinion that much.
Also its still in alpha so it CAN change, but it probably WONT change to the better direction UNLESS WE WHINE about the things we dont like.
What's the point of discussing about this if you can only talk about one side of the matter without being accused of trolling?
Also, i dont by any means want to offend anyone, sorry if i did.
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why.
It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings.
Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW.
This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene.
"You cannot surprise a player anymore."
Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs.
There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like.
"It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings."
I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent.
Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone.
Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2.
Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about.
Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there.
Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always.
For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions.
Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient)
Don´t be so hung up about the word suprise. What is important isn´t "suprising" the enemy since, as you said, in a game the options are limited and known to both sides - like chess, actually even more so since there is no hidden information in chess.
How does chess work then? In chess your only chance to gain an advantage is it to make a move the enemy doesn´t make a "correct" answer to. Even "bad" moves are good if they confuse your enemy.
You even said it yourself, in your example both players took calculated risks and yet you say that SC would be only about effectivness and efficiency. When your enemy makes a move that gives him an advantage over 75% of your available options you can either negate the advantage by "outplaying" him or by choosing a option from the other 25%, in the best case you do both.
Outplaying is the safe way - you "just" have to work hard to do that, hence why everyone did it and as consequence only players that do it remain to compete against each other.
The problem with RTS of course is that you usually only know about your enemys move for shure when it´s to late - it´s your "skill" to "know" your enemy better than he knows you. You are (and thats what is great about RTS) not calculating risks by looking into a Excel Table but by looking at what and how your enemy plays (to make it meta: also how your enemy used to play in previous games if you have the option) and figure out his "numbers".
No dude.. I was the first person to use the word surprise... when I said it I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways.
I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore and he took it to mean that I think both players have perfect information at all times(like a map hack or like chess). It was just a misunderstanding. I kind of only sifted through your post as I think your entire foundation of writing it was a bit skewed but if you want to post again after reading this then I'll give it some more attention.
Having written this post I can't believe I've never heard of putting on 'fog of war' while playing chess.. maybe the first two or three rows.. how sick would that be.
On December 24 2008 09:41 inReacH wrote: I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways.
I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore
Warning: Paradox detected.
On December 24 2008 09:19 Manit0u wrote: Apparently he stopped posting after FA found a flaw in his logic.
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why.
It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings.
Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW.
This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene.
"You cannot surprise a player anymore."
Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs.
There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like.
"It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings."
I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent.
Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone.
Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2.
Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about.
Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there.
Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always.
For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions.
Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient)
Don´t be so hung up about the word suprise. What is important isn´t "suprising" the enemy since, as you said, in a game the options are limited and known to both sides - like chess, actually even more so since there is no hidden information in chess.
How does chess work then? In chess your only chance to gain an advantage is it to make a move the enemy doesn´t make a "correct" answer to. Even "bad" moves are good if they confuse your enemy.
You even said it yourself, in your example both players took calculated risks and yet you say that SC would be only about effectivness and efficiency. When your enemy makes a move that gives him an advantage over 75% of your available options you can either negate the advantage by "outplaying" him or by choosing a option from the other 25%, in the best case you do both.
Outplaying is the safe way - you "just" have to work hard to do that, hence why everyone did it and as consequence only players that do it remain to compete against each other.
The problem with RTS of course is that you usually only know about your enemys move for shure when it´s to late - it´s your "skill" to "know" your enemy better than he knows you. You are (and thats what is great about RTS) not calculating risks by looking into a Excel Table but by looking at what and how your enemy plays (to make it meta: also how your enemy used to play in previous games if you have the option) and figure out his "numbers".
No dude.. I was the first person to use the word surprise... when I said it I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways.
I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore and he took it to mean that I think both players have perfect information at all times(like a map hack or like chess). It was just a misunderstanding. I kind of only sifted through your post as I think your entire foundation of writing it was a bit skewed but if you want to post again after reading this then I'll give it some more attention.
Having written this post I can't believe I've never heard of putting on 'fog of war' while playing chess.. maybe the first two or three rows.. how sick would that be.
On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote: I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay!
Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time. I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time.
I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere.
My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now.
I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right.
There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf.
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it?
I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why.
It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings.
Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW.
This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene.
"You cannot surprise a player anymore."
Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs.
There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like.
"It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings."
I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent.
Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone.
Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2.
Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about.
Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there.
Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always.
For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions.
Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient)
Don´t be so hung up about the word suprise. What is important isn´t "suprising" the enemy since, as you said, in a game the options are limited and known to both sides - like chess, actually even more so since there is no hidden information in chess.
How does chess work then? In chess your only chance to gain an advantage is it to make a move the enemy doesn´t make a "correct" answer to. Even "bad" moves are good if they confuse your enemy.
You even said it yourself, in your example both players took calculated risks and yet you say that SC would be only about effectivness and efficiency. When your enemy makes a move that gives him an advantage over 75% of your available options you can either negate the advantage by "outplaying" him or by choosing a option from the other 25%, in the best case you do both.
Outplaying is the safe way - you "just" have to work hard to do that, hence why everyone did it and as consequence only players that do it remain to compete against each other.
The problem with RTS of course is that you usually only know about your enemys move for shure when it´s to late - it´s your "skill" to "know" your enemy better than he knows you. You are (and thats what is great about RTS) not calculating risks by looking into a Excel Table but by looking at what and how your enemy plays (to make it meta: also how your enemy used to play in previous games if you have the option) and figure out his "numbers".
No dude.. I was the first person to use the word surprise... when I said it I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways.
I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore and he took it to mean that I think both players have perfect information at all times(like a map hack or like chess). It was just a misunderstanding. I kind of only sifted through your post as I think your entire foundation of writing it was a bit skewed but if you want to post again after reading this then I'll give it some more attention.
Having written this post I can't believe I've never heard of putting on 'fog of war' while playing chess.. maybe the first two or three rows.. how sick would that be.
No I think fantasy was surprised when Jaedong ensnared him yesterday.
Yup.. still not the same as when you don't know about banshees being cloaked units or something like that.. I mean the surprise one can experience when they are playing a game they have never played before.
On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote: I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay!
Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time. I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time.
I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere.
My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now.
I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right.
There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf.
Seriously, why do you keep posting this irrelevant pictures? Who the fuck cares how your bes friend looks like? Who the hell cares if the girl in the pic is or is not your gf? Who cares if your gf does or does not use your custom hotkeys?
On December 23 2008 19:32 CalvinStorm wrote: I am pretty sure he is a troll.
He is having quite a bit of fun as you can see from the quality of his posts and has made quite a believeable and wacky character for himself.
I have noticed he has these following character traits that are quite(too) pronounced:
Arrogance (IE. "I have played WC and SC for 4 days with my off hand and can play it competently, I am not as fast but I will be soon", etc.)
Attacking critics with random comments (IE. "...you should never aspire to become a scientist", "are you a creationist or evolutionist?" etc.)
Knowledge of WC3 (I used to play WC3 a lot, I know what hes saying is quite accurate)
Machine-like thinking (IE. His theories on how SC2 will be when it comes out)
Over the top (IE. he quit his job for a game that hasn't come out yet, overly in-depth with which finger pushing what button, etc.)
From these, I conclude that he is a very entertaining troll poster who hides it incredibly well, providing us 2 extremely entertaining threads. The posters who gets angry at him make me laugh so much after his comments.
This is absolutely the greatest post I have ever read, I laughed sooo hard. It actually is great motivation that you guys think I'm so over the top. Whether or not my ideas have any merit at all I feel that being committed enough to the point were some people think you are lying is something to be really proud of.
On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote: I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay!
Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time. I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time.
I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere.
My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now.
I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right.
There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf.
Seriously, why do you keep posting this irrelevant pictures? Who the fuck cares how your bes friend looks like? Who the hell cares if the girl in the pic is or is not your gf? Who cares if your gf does or does not use your custom hotkeys?
On December 23 2008 12:50 inReacH wrote: Even if people use all 10 hotkeys every game which WILL NOT happen.. it's still reducing the # of different thing you need hotkeys for from well over 10 to between 5 and 10 depending on style and game length. I personally would rather push tab than move my hand way out of position to hit the higher numbers.. It will be race/preference dependant but you can't deny that in SC there was way over 10 things people would hotkey if they could, and now using 10 would mean you are using them terribly inefficiently.
Seriously, do you really think it'll be such a bother to use more hotkeys? In SC2 you won't have heroes so your hand won't have to hang near the zxcv keys at all times to use this abilities. Also units won't have as much abilities/won't use them as often with a couple exceptions (just an educated guess). And you don't always have to move your hand out of position to hit the higher numbers: - you can put your army under 0, 9, 8 and use patrol move instead of attack move - with custom hotkeys you can set them all to work well with your hotkey distribution
I think that you are severely overreacting and some of your assumptions are very wrong which might lead to a big disappointment on your side when the actual game comes out.
Edit: Just 2 other things I'd like to add:
1: I've read 'the switch: part 1' and have to give you a big LOL at switching hands and thinking it will actually have any impact on your performance. Keys in WC3 are customizable - guess how many pros switched their main hand because of this?
2: In the op in this thread you've stated that you want to convince people that practicing WC3 is going to be good for SC2... As many people here may confirm, I am a big WC3 fan, I am heavily pro mbs/automining/smartcasting and what not. Now the question for you: If you fail to convince me then how the hell are you going to convince all those hardcore BW fans out there?
Thanks for listening.
I don't use ZXCV at all for wc3 or sc1 and won't for sc2.. never said I would... You already said your done with this thread so I'll just stop reading there.
EDIT: Ok yeah I read the rest of your post and your so off-point that I will still choose not to bother responding.
On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote: I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay!
Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time. I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time.
I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere.
My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now.
I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right.
There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf.
Seriously, why do you keep posting this irrelevant pictures? Who the fuck cares how your bes friend looks like? Who the hell cares if the girl in the pic is or is not your gf? Who cares if your gf does or does not use your custom hotkeys?
I'm out.
Um the guy who asked cares I guess.
He asked if you have a life, not random pics from the internet, didn't he?
On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote: Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me
SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released.
On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently?
If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW.
I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z).
Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
Hey you know I actually partially agree with you that if someone started out playing WC3 they could potentially waste some time learning some of the more WC3 specific aspects of the game. Since I've switched back to wc3, I have spent absolutely 0 time researching and refining my builds etc.. but I admit I already know a lot about the strategy in that game. I feel that SC2 is far enough off that it would still be worth it at this point, if you aren't playing to win and instead are just focused on good habit building.
As far as individually doing production buildings, there is literally not a chance this will be better. It's so much slower and more importantly your rally points will be much more static. When you are have low unit vs low unit battles in the early-midgame, it will be very important that you are able to get reinforcements. Think how zerg has to delay the terran as they are making their way to the zerg base before defilers, having all your units come right to you so you can alpha strike when you get perfect position is critical.. stuff like like but there will be tons more undoubtedly.
If you are trying to take their ramp/choke PvT and it requires huge attention from you because of stalker micro.. being able to just go "3 - right click" and then have all your units constantly coming to back you up is huge.
You have to push an extra 6 keys everytime you macro your way, and also actually putting your buildings in different groups takes time, also when you get more production buildings you have to redo everything, also you can't hotkey other useful stuff like observers etc..
Ok this thread is waaaaaaay past constructive and I don't see it going back there anytime soon. Closing it. EDIT: This wasn't directed at your last post, wasn't here when I posted, however I still think it's time to close this.
To clarify tho, I wasn't saying you should use 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z in SC2, I'm saying SC1 has "macro while microing" via hotkeys.
EPT
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