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On December 23 2008 21:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
QFT
And to add up one more argument: It's much easier to switch from BW to WC3 than the other way around. Getting used to mbs and the other stuff shouldn't take more than a couple of games and no more than a week of playing a couple of games/day to use some other mechanics fairly well.
Also to back up FA's post, based on my personal experience yesterday:
I get 120apm average while playing WC3, I've launched BW to stomp the comp and check how my apm distribution will look like. I've reached a whooping 66apm...
I believe that a week or so of practice could bring my BW apm to >100 but that's not the point, the mechanics/focus of this games are so different that learning WC3 to play SC2 later is really bad idea because you'll have to learn a shitton of stuff you will never ever use there (items and stuff like FA pointed out) while practicing BW you will get better at OVERALL RTS useful mechanics.
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On December 23 2008 21:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released. Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 12:01 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently? If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW. I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z). Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
That doesnt mean it will stay as one, i predict it will be pretty big for a while, and then cool down when people notice it sucks.
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Sweden33719 Posts
1) Again, WC3 has been an e-Sport for.. 6.5 years?
2) SC2 will have a pretty long minimum life simply due to the expansions.
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On December 23 2008 23:47 MuR)Ernu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 21:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released. On December 23 2008 12:01 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently? If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW. I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z). Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently? That doesnt mean it will stay as one, i predict it will be pretty big for a while, and then cool down when people notice it sucks.
I love the fact that you simply KNOW how SC2 WILL SUCK. I presume you have never even played the game.
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On December 23 2008 19:32 CalvinStorm wrote:
I am pretty sure he is a troll.
He is having quite a bit of fun as you can see from the quality of his posts and has made quite a believeable and wacky character for himself.
I have noticed he has these following character traits that are quite(too) pronounced:
Arrogance (IE. "I have played WC and SC for 4 days with my off hand and can play it competently, I am not as fast but I will be soon", etc.)
Attacking critics with random comments (IE. "...you should never aspire to become a scientist", "are you a creationist or evolutionist?" etc.)
Knowledge of WC3 (I used to play WC3 a lot, I know what hes saying is quite accurate)
Machine-like thinking (IE. His theories on how SC2 will be when it comes out)
Over the top (IE. he quit his job for a game that hasn't come out yet, overly in-depth with which finger pushing what button, etc.)
From these, I conclude that he is a very entertaining troll poster who hides it incredibly well, providing us 2 extremely entertaining threads. The posters who gets angry at him make me laugh so much after his comments.
This. No way anyone can be as stupid and arrogant as OP without being a Troll.
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i think you're better off developing your mouse accuracy than trying to simulate sc2 on wc3 (you'll just develop habits that are best suited for wc3).
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On December 23 2008 23:47 MuR)Ernu wrote:
That doesnt mean it will stay as one, i predict it will be pretty big for a while, and then cool down when people notice it sucks.
i feel like Boxer watching my pupil oov playing when u post
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On December 24 2008 00:55 rkarhu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 23:47 MuR)Ernu wrote:On December 23 2008 21:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released. On December 23 2008 12:01 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently? If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW. I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z). Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently? That doesnt mean it will stay as one, i predict it will be pretty big for a while, and then cool down when people notice it sucks. I love the fact that you simply KNOW how SC2 WILL SUCK. I presume you have never even played the game.
No i havent.
But how do you know it will be good?
Also its in alpha so it prolly doesn't matter.
Also, i could tell that like cooking mama sucks even though i haven't played the game (couldn't come up with anything better atm). I'm not blind or anything.'
I can clearly tell that the direction the game is going, is very bad.
It will be a funny casual RTS if nothing else. But i still dont think its good, as in BW good.
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MuR)Ernu, so this is based on your imagination, after all. Well then, what is really bad is the direction You are going. Stop trolling.
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On December 24 2008 07:47 InRaged wrote:
MuR)Ernu, so this is based on your imagination, after all. Well then, what is really bad is the direction You are going. Stop trolling.
+1
All people hating on SC2 and all they have is based on their imagination. Seriously.
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On December 24 2008 07:47 InRaged wrote:
MuR)Ernu, so this is based on your imagination, after all. Well then, what is really bad is the direction You are going. Stop trolling.
lol sorry, always wanted too say this. Touché, and slightly ironical.
I think the essence and intention of your post might be well placed, but your choice of game and reasons to play it are not. What your searching for is a game that closely resembles sc2, so it can be a seamless transition. Too this ends, it has already been mentioned, alot of sc1 builds will work in sc2 (obviously where applicable), and getting into bad habits with HUGE focus on keeping your army alive, and using all your special abilities is defiantly not going the distance. To this ends, i'm not entirely sure if you understand WHY MBS was a bad thing? It was/is bad because it takes you away from your base/s and fucked the whole micro/macro thing (and by choosing wc3, your rather taking that away anyways... they are two games, with two entirely different approaches
Blizz even states this; one is a focus on small groups with uber powerful specials and heroes, the other is large armies with pretty much everything largely expendable (or at least opportunity cost))
Also (although i make no claim too be a pro at ether game) i think the losses you'll make by getting bad habits by spending all your time using your hero's supa doopa uber awesome powers, and keeping your whole twelve units alive rather than getting use too even USING the mbs far outweighs the benift you will get when you possibly build 4 barracks at the start of the game too get up too your whole twelve units. Seriously, mbs isn't even that big in wc3. I mean hell, you get punished for having too many guys with high upkeep, so whats the point in building HEEPS of buildings too get too your UBER AWESOME twelve units?
Prehapse you should change tact, and focus on AoX rather than wc3. The lack of hero units, and quantity of normal units you can get makes it much more appealing, and the point it has a limited scene is irrelevant, since you could try vs more than one person ect to make it more challenging (or humiliating, whichever you prefer).
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I dont think he is trolling man, he sounds offensive, yes, but he never played the fool with anyone here.
plus, his oppinion is a bit annoying for some, i know, but it is true when you compare the revolutions,the complexity and the pimp of Brood War to Star2(UNTIL NOW) purposeful simplicity.
There is no doubt that the game is gonna be great, but if it will have room for what happened in 8 years of brood war proscene and still happens no one knows and for definition, for something to surpass the perfect only being perfect+something not perfect-some thing.
~~2 cents that cant buy anything btw.
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On December 24 2008 09:03 Ki_Do wrote:
I dont think he is trolling man, he sounds offensive, yes, but he never played the fool with anyone here.
plus, his oppinion is a bit annoying for some, i know, but it is true when you compare the revolutions,the complexity and the pimp of Brood War to Star2(UNTIL NOW) purposeful simplicity.
There is no doubt that the game is gonna be great, but if it will have room for what happened in 8 years of brood war proscene and still happens no one knows and for definition, for something to surpass the perfect only being perfect+something not perfect-some thing.
~~2 cents that cant buy anything btw.
lol if i had 2 cents for every time i thought YOU were trolling.
Personally i think the distinction should be made: trolling is when your post adds nothing too the forum, only your own subjective opinion and nothing too back it up. Saying SC2 is not, and never will be a good game is not exactly helpful/useful is it?
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Apparently he stopped posting after FA found a flaw in his logic. 
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On December 24 2008 09:19 Manit0u wrote:Apparently he stopped posting after FA found a flaw in his logic.
who?
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On December 24 2008 09:21 Ki_Do wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 09:19 Manit0u wrote:Apparently he stopped posting after FA found a flaw in his logic. who?
OP
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Sweden33719 Posts
Tyraz, I think you may be confusing inRaged with inReach. I was a bit confused by your psot until I realized this 
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Just For your info, i was not trolling.
I'm sorry if my difference in opinion=Trolling.
If my strong opinion about starcraft2 somehow offends you, i am sorry.
Also what is wrong with saying that it is a bad game? We who actually do have some critic for things, get flamed so much.
Why should we settle on anything less than perfect anyways? I mean BW is as close as a game gets to perfect right now, i dont think SC2 will top it. Not by a long shot.
Also i usually try to explain what i dont like and why. That makes it even less trolling. Of course, i dont have to explain something that has been explained a hundred times already in MBS threads and ofc the other threads about sc2 too.
"this is based on your imagination"
Not exactly, its based on about all info that has been released about SC2. I havent played it yet, but even if i did play it, i dont think it could change my opinion that much.
Also its still in alpha so it CAN change, but it probably WONT change to the better direction UNLESS WE WHINE about the things we dont like.
What's the point of discussing about this if you can only talk about one side of the matter without being accused of trolling?
Also, i dont by any means want to offend anyone, sorry if i did.
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On December 23 2008 20:26 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 10:28 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 10:15 Fontong wrote:On December 23 2008 09:44 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote:
Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it? I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why. It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings. Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW. This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene. "You cannot surprise a player anymore." Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs. There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like. "It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings." I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent. Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone. Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2. Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about. Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there. Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always. For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions. Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient) Don´t be so hung up about the word suprise. What is important isn´t "suprising" the enemy since, as you said, in a game the options are limited and known to both sides - like chess, actually even more so since there is no hidden information in chess. How does chess work then? In chess your only chance to gain an advantage is it to make a move the enemy doesn´t make a "correct" answer to. Even "bad" moves are good if they confuse your enemy. You even said it yourself, in your example both players took calculated risks and yet you say that SC would be only about effectivness and efficiency. When your enemy makes a move that gives him an advantage over 75% of your available options you can either negate the advantage by "outplaying" him or by choosing a option from the other 25%, in the best case you do both. Outplaying is the safe way - you "just" have to work hard to do that, hence why everyone did it and as consequence only players that do it remain to compete against each other. The problem with RTS of course is that you usually only know about your enemys move for shure when it´s to late - it´s your "skill" to "know" your enemy better than he knows you. You are (and thats what is great about RTS) not calculating risks by looking into a Excel Table but by looking at what and how your enemy plays (to make it meta: also how your enemy used to play in previous games if you have the option) and figure out his "numbers".
No dude.. I was the first person to use the word surprise... when I said it I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways.
I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore and he took it to mean that I think both players have perfect information at all times(like a map hack or like chess). It was just a misunderstanding. I kind of only sifted through your post as I think your entire foundation of writing it was a bit skewed but if you want to post again after reading this then I'll give it some more attention.
Having written this post I can't believe I've never heard of putting on 'fog of war' while playing chess.. maybe the first two or three rows.. how sick would that be.
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On December 24 2008 09:41 inReacH wrote:
I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways.
I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore
Warning: Paradox detected.
On December 24 2008 09:19 Manit0u wrote: Apparently he stopped posting after FA found a flaw in his logic.
Note to self: Don't feed the troll!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/orly.jpeg)
