On December 22 2008 18:54 Unentschieden wrote: You won´t gain as much of an advantage as you might think. The aspects of gameplay you are "training" for is basic stuff refined for ease of use. It is supposed to be as intuitive as possible, that is the point of the changes (compared to SC:BW).
I kind of agree with you.. If people are smart and have the constitution to focus only on good habit building from the get-go without putting any emphasis on winning, this will marginalize my advantage. Either way it is still an advantage, I will be able to immediately go into game theory and being ahead of the curve like that is easily worth it.. I am losing nothing by doing these things.
By theorizing this early, I am also allowing myself to make large changes that I wouldn't want to make when SC2 is out, such as switching to mousing with my left hand.
I also think many people will have a hard time focusing only on habits when ladder is going.. it takes time to re-develop habits in a thing like an RTS. I didn't even remember SC2 had MBS when I played it at blizzcon.
They also aren't always intuitive... A ton of people don't even know all the ways to be more efficient in WAR3.
I am a total nub at making long posts, so please forgive me if I sound retarded in this. I just feel that I have to say something about sc/war3 to sc2 in general. This post is fairly long so if you want the summary, go to the final 2 paragraphs. Also please pm me if you have issues regarding this post's format. Well then, let's get started in this analysis shall we?
On December 22 2008 14:12 inReacH wrote: 1. Let's start with what is maybe the biggest one.. MBS MBS is in Warcraft 3 and SC 2 but not in BW. ... And guess what... It's obsolete. Some will argue doing something harder than what you have to do will make you more accomplished at the task you're actually training for. It's just not close enough where that kind of thinking is relevant. I used to think this but it's just straight up a different skill. Modern macro doesn't require you to go back to your base. That doesn't mean the skill of fast screen switching is obsolete but that skill is not the same as macro and is much easier.
Some bw players learn macro to get good at bw. And the ones that do it to get good at sc2 can also learn quite a bit of multi-tasking in terms of looking at base and managing armies. I agree that MBS allows a huge hurdle to be put down for players, and regardless of all the hate, it's staying in the game no matter what. Not putting MBS will drive away at least 50% of potential "full-time" sc2ers and the reviews from the gaming press (yea I know they are usually retarded).
Though on a positive note, you can now focus fire units with cannons, sunkens, etc due to MBS.
Other things I have to add about MBS: rally points. The inclusion of MBS in sc2 allows very easy rally pointing/changing. This means players don't have to use the screen hotkeys to change rally points efficiently (this was shown in the translated gorush vid). Also, the fact unit rallies are not on "move" means that units will attack whatever is in their way. This is good and bad. However, players can prevent this by multi-tasking. They can manage the units coming out of their buildings to make sure they commit to what they want their reinforcements to do. So in a way, this can be a new skill players can learn to differentiate themselves from the lesser players.
2. Numeral hotkey Usage Brood War is an old game, modern RTS games are being designed to allow you to be neat at all times, a big part of this is not having more units/buildings than you can fit in your hotkeys. Zerg got fucked on this one in BW but it's not going to be like that after SC2. You will easily be able to play a game with only 2 hotkeys but 4 will probably be more common -Production buildings -CC/Nexus AND tech buildings -Army 1 -Army 2 to allow flanking The better players will have observers/shuttles and units of importance hotkeyed also, but it will rarely go higher than #7 I think and usually be much fewer. If you use your head you can determine what numeral hotkeys will be optimal for you in SC2 and start practicing them in WC3. Perfect control over these kinds of things is important and WC3 is an opportunity to practice it.
I agree with you here, though some of this is a part of MBS as well. Despite the fact wc3 has a low amount of buildings, some players group identical production buildings together to make units. Although from what I hear, the sc2 system implements a system where one press only makes one building produce the unit. So in a way, this can be good or bad depending on the situation.
However, there will be units that won't be used with hotkeys because they are simply inefficient, but this is for players to figure out for themselves. And I am pretty sure at least 5-6 group hotkeys will be used for sc2, though it maybe just me. I currently use 6-8 in wc3 depending on the situation along with the f1-3 keys.
-TAB - Allow you to cycle through unit types that are selected eg. 3 zeals 1 HT in control group 1, PUSH: 1, TAB, -HOTKEY FOR STORM-, leftclick
-SHIFT+TAB - Allow you to cycle backwards through unit types that are selected(opposite of TAB)
I think I remember reading somewhere that you cannot use the tab system for sc2, I may be wrong on this aspect.
-MOUSE3 - In WC3, you have the option to turn off MOUSE SCROLLING(that is when you move your mouse to the edge of the screen and it scrolls the map. Why would anyone possibly do this?
Wow lol I didn't even know about this and I played wc3 seriously since RoC release until mid '07. I personally think this isn't that big of a deal, so I'm fine with this.
-The ` key - In WC3, you can use the ` key to select idle workers, this won't be terribly hard to pick up for BW players but stuff like ` SHIFT ```` to select 5 idle workers quickly is something that is a good thing to learn before SC2 comes out.
This is one of the biggest changes from sc to sc2 imo. I'm not sure about the hotkey now, but when I played it at blizzcon 07, it was the f10 key (wtf?). This allows players to minimize worker idle times so much it's not even funny. It's a pretty good feature especially for hectic situations where you have to spend your apm in other areas. Even though everyone is already going to buy sc2 whether they like it or not, this is one of the things wc3 players HATED about when they tried to play sc. By adding this feature, blizzard easily integrates the wc3 players, the wow players(lol they probably will stick to their damned mmo), and any potential newcomers in the blizzard scene.
-SHIFT ADDING TO GROUPS - This one is huge, I THINK is actually also in BW so if you people don't use it then you should start...
However it is easier to train because doing it with buildings might be the most useful function of it which YOU CAN'T do in BW. If you don't know what it is.. eg. Say you have 2 facts in control group 5 and you have just started construction of a 3rd one, you click on the constructing(or finished) factory and then click SHIFT + 5. All 3 facts are now in control group 5.
It's in brood war so it doesnt really matter. The only difference is shift adding buildings to groups, this is basically an extension of the MBS section of your original post.
-Custom hotkeys - This one is fucking monster size. As I'm sure no one will be surprised, I do think that there is usually a correct way to do something. Whether or not there is a right way for everyone, there is definitely a right way for each individual person and sometimes it takes time to figure it out. People who can figure out what hotkeys are optimal for them now will be at a huge advantage, I doubt anyone would argue that. However even the people who are using custom hotkeys in BW.. this wasn't good enough for me because you are practicing using them in conjunction with a bunch of other obsolete crap.. all the stuff I have mentioned and more. How can you figure out what button you want to be attack if you are currently controlling up to 10 groups of units sometimes and usually more than 3. Using my attack key right now for BW would be terrible, but for WC3 and SC2 it's great.
For wc3, it can be great. Personally I never used it and I just learned all the defaults, but I agree with you on the fact that it can greatly benefit many players and it can help players create their own handling style for sc2.
I'd say I am 50/50 with your post, since I did used to take wc3 seriously and attempt to change to completely sc. A lot of the quirks about the sc bothered me until I got used to them, and I had first-hand experience in seeing people shifting away from sc to go back to wc3 (mostly due to lack of winning, but also due to UI). When I played wc3 from time to time, I would notice my multi-tasking increased GREATLY after playing sc for quite some time, due to the fact I had to constantly go back to my base to manage things, as well as operating multiple harrass groups.
Warcraft 3 can be a good way to learn the new sc2 ui, as I went into blizzcon 07 with a primarily wc3 background, and I didn't have troubles getting used to the UI. But sc is a good way to improve your multitasking ability and strategical mindset. Warcraft 3 is usually based on who executes a build better, so you can never really learn the concept of tactics. This was further shown in the Yellow vs Sonkie sc2 video from blizzcon08, where sonkie would constantly sit in his base having no map control or any sort of strategy/tactics/harrassment in mind.
Edit: This post was written from a player with a war3 background and a past season C- iccup T player with around one year of sc experience.
Ok I'm not going to quote your long post because it makes my posts wayyyyy too long but this is in response to Ginseng
First off I want to say great post, definitely nice to read something which isn't just a different variation of dismissiveness. I'll label my responses to each of your points via the # of my quotes you used.
First Point:
I do agree that fast screen changing is a hugely important skill in RTS.. Being able to flash back to your base to do something quickly while maintaining control in a situation that needs almost every second you have is one of the greatest things about RTS games. I think Starcrafts macro is a great exhibition of this behavior and good at giving a player practice for other situations where such a skill is necessary.
However, I believe that it's not in the same category as most of the skills I went over.. I don't think it's nearly as fundamental and I think that even if a player never played SC, that if they were playing WC3 or SC2 enough to be competitive this skill would come passively. I don't think it's something that needs to be given special attention in anticipation of SC2.
I'm going to reference this video several times in this post and I'll post it here where I'll point out that we can see Moon doing this screen changing very well before he put any time into starcraft, it's just something you start doing when you get very fast with hotkeys and very good control.
Fast screen changes always use hotkeys.. I'll say again that I think anyone who plays enough to compete(like 10+ hours/day) while focusing on improving will get this skill quite easily. If the macro in SC2 was the same in SC1 I DO think it would be worth it.. simply because mastering that macro is so so so difficult.
I also wanted to mention that you pointed out something really important and that is several things that MBS adds to the game. Dynamic rally points is really going to raise the ceiling of perfection that can be administered over your army. If I would have thought of this specifically I am certain I would have posted it several times in the past. Really a great point.
[B]Second Point[\b] we agree Third Point I'd really like to know the answer to this.. I can't imagine it being not present.. that would mean that zerg has an advantage for building hotkeys because all hats can be used with 1 number but not gateways/stargates etc It would also defeat a large part of the usefullness of unlimited army selection.
Really I doubt this and would be astounded.
Fourth point Dude don't dismiss this! Mouse 3 is insanely insanely useful If you watch the moon video again look when he does mouse scroll it's always by a very very very small distance. Using mouse3 to do this is sooooooooo good.. lol.. I am literally playing wc3 without mouse scrolling on at all and I think I will eventually try to master using them in conjunction but I don't know.. it's really good... I might just stick with this.
I have pretty shitty mouse control because I just switched from my right to my left hand and I can scroll from the very left of a map to the very right of a map faster with mouse3 than with maximum mouse scroll.. seriously. It's so fast and accurate... Ok enough emphasis
Fifth point we agree
Sixth point There is actually a very large difference between shift adding in SC1 and WC3 First of course the buildings is huge. but also the # of units you have to do it to in SC1 makes it impossible sometimes as I said before. The fact that you have many less units that need to be grouped in WC3 and that you have no limit in SC2 is very similar.
Hotkeys Don't know what to say, you are handicapping yourself severely by not using them.
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
Do you mean Armies of Exigo?
Really it has all those thing I mentioned?
Go play Armies of Exigo if you want to only play the campaign and against the computer. It's a decent game with a microscopic community, which makes it a waste of time.
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
Do you mean Armies of Exigo?
Really it has all those thing I mentioned?
Go play Armies of Exigo if you want to only play the campaign and against the computer. It's a decent game with a microscopic community, which makes it a waste of time.
Yeah I definitely wasn't planning on it, was just curious if that's what he meant.
WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep).
Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol.
The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2......
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
On December 22 2008 19:00 Manit0u wrote: If you want to practice all this stuff before switching to SC2 then I'd suggest AoX instead of WC3. It has all this mechanics but the gameplay itself resembles SC much more (no heroes/creeps, large armies etc. etc.).
But we've all been over it a hundred times over, weren't we?
Do you mean Armies of Exigo?
Really it has all those thing I mentioned?
Go play Armies of Exigo if you want to only play the campaign and against the computer. It's a decent game with a microscopic community, which makes it a waste of time.
Except if all he's playing for is to "prepare for SC2" then it doesnt matter at all what the size of the community is, or what can be accomplished playing the game?
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
On December 22 2008 22:48 Ki_Do wrote: the major change i am making for the switch is spending now the 150 bucks with more useful and satisfatory things than with the 3 games
On December 22 2008 22:21 Velr wrote: WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep).
Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol.
The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2......
Go on, waste your time...
Read my post..
It's about fundamentals.. you don't train what you do, you train how you do it. Having heroes/more spells is irrelevant.. and units do die in wc3.. anyways don't bother responding I have no interest in this conversation. I can say with absolute certainty that I've played more SC, more WC3 and more SC2 than you.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
Well the bw scene is much more competitive and though Yellow is kind of dropping the ball lately, he still has so much more experience to use as a resource when he's solving new RTS problems like SC2.
Honestly I know the WC3 player moon is pretty decent at SC now.. I would put a lot of money on him over any bw player with equal existing SC2 experience.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
Well the bw scene is much more competitive and though Yellow is kind of dropping the ball lately, he still has so much more experience to use as a resource when he's solving new RTS problems like SC2.
Honestly I know the WC3 player moon is pretty decent at SC now.. I would put a lot of money on him over any bw player with equal existing SC2 experience.
I'm going to reference this video several times in this post and I'll post it here where I'll point out that we can see Moon doing this screen changing very well before he put any time into starcraft, it's just something you start doing when you get very fast with hotkeys and very good control.
From what I've heard Moon was a semi-pro @ SC before switching to WC3.
On December 22 2008 22:45 exeprime wrote: Lol, awful post in many ways.
Just one thing to say - Yellow vs. Sonkie @ Blizzcon.
I'm convinced that being in the whole Starcraft "state of mind", practicing the logic and improving your general comfort with the style of the game is gonna be a lot more useful than practicing little mechanical gimmicks. Plus, I'm sure macro will be quite important in SC2 also.
Obviously didn't read my post either..
Way to reference an abstract thing in response to multiple logical, testable theories. It's like the patented losers way of losing.
Yellow vs Sonkie is irrelevant. I never said being a B-list wc3 player and having never played bw would make you able to take down A-list bw gamers at SC2 immediately.
I was gonna say the same thing but frankly, Yellow is sooooo far away from A-list thesedays.. It was probably a pretty fair matchup in terms of how they'd rank in their individual scenes.
Well the bw scene is much more competitive and though Yellow is kind of dropping the ball lately, he still has so much more experience to use as a resource when he's solving new RTS problems like SC2.
Honestly I know the WC3 player moon is pretty decent at SC now.. I would put a lot of money on him over any bw player with equal existing SC2 experience.
I'm going to reference this video several times in this post and I'll post it here where I'll point out that we can see Moon doing this screen changing very well before he put any time into starcraft, it's just something you start doing when you get very fast with hotkeys and very good control.
From what I've heard Moon was a semi-pro @ SC before switching to WC3.
I thought I remembered differently but I can't be sure.. Kind of irrelevant though my point still stands. If that's the case Moon would absolutely smash anyone the world with equal SC2 experience.. watch for it when SC2 comes.
On December 22 2008 23:26 inReacH wrote: Read my post..
It's about fundamentals.. you don't train what you do, you train how you do it. Having heroes/more spells is irrelevant.. and units do die in wc3.. anyways don't bother responding I have no interest in this conversation. I can say with absolute certainty that I've played more SC, more WC3 and more SC2 than you.
Oh i had a good share of SC/BW (5-6 years?) and a good share of WC3-Classic (rank ~85 1on1 northrend ladder) until the game bored me out (never played much tft except dota :p).
The skillset required for WC3 is just entirely different from that required for SC/BW.. You may be comfortable with the controls but you will use entirely different *moves* more often. *Tab* for Instance is extremely important and nice in WC3, it won't be that good in SC2 because the game simply has not the amount of Spells that WC3 has and it for sure has not the amount of really spammable spells that WC3 has.
By your logic I could also play Footmen Frenzy to become better at SC2 because I learn to manage the UI. There is no Macro in WC3, you will get better with the UI, but by playing WC3 your focus will lie on other parts of the UI.
And btw... To *rock the house* when SC2 comes out there is 1 simple thing to do it: "Get into the beta".
On December 22 2008 23:26 inReacH wrote: Read my post..
It's about fundamentals.. you don't train what you do, you train how you do it. Having heroes/more spells is irrelevant.. and units do die in wc3.. anyways don't bother responding I have no interest in this conversation. I can say with absolute certainty that I've played more SC, more WC3 and more SC2 than you.
Oh i had a good share of SC/BW (5-6 years?) and a good share of WC3-Classic (rank ~85 1on1 northrend ladder) until the game bored me out (never played much tft except dota :p).
The skillset required for WC3 is just entirely different from that required for SC/BW.. You may be comfortable with the controls but you will use entirely different *moves* more often. *Tab* for Instance is extremely important and nice in WC3, it won't be that good in SC2 because the game simply has not the amount of Spells that WC3 has and it for sure has not the amount of really spammable spells that WC3 has.
By your logic I could also play Footmen Frenzy to become better at SC2 because I learn to manage the UI. There is no Macro in WC3, you will get better with the UI, but by playing WC3 your focus will lie on other parts of the UI.
And btw... To *rock the house* when SC2 comes out there is 1 simple thing to do it: "Get into the beta".
Footmen Frenzy eh...
Just stop posting dude.. I don't feel like picking apart your posts every time but I can't help myself because I wouldn't want you to think that you are on to something.. you're out of your element here.
Tab will have many functions.. It is very likely players will have all their tech buildings/forges in the same group.. possibly in the same group as their CC's
Also.. stalkers, lurkers, seige mode............ bla.. think before you post.
Yeah I have a beta key, I went to blizzcon from Canada to guarentee getting one.. Ok can you stop posting now?
Rank 85 in ROC is not an accomplishment btw.. I was #1/#2 deep into last season and made invitational ladder.. I actually don't consider that an accomplishment either lol..
EDIT: I don't mean to be so rude and I think if you read my response to the long post earlier in this page you will see I am reacting to you and that is not my nature.
Dismissive things like "WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS" is quite enfuriating seeing as how you are not only wrong but you are also neglecting 90% of my post.
EPT
