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On December 24 2008 09:41 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 20:26 Unentschieden wrote:On December 23 2008 10:28 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 10:15 Fontong wrote:On December 23 2008 09:44 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote:
Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it? I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why. It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings. Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW. This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene. "You cannot surprise a player anymore." Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs. There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like. "It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings." I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent. Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone. Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2. Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about. Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there. Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always. For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions. Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient) Don´t be so hung up about the word suprise. What is important isn´t "suprising" the enemy since, as you said, in a game the options are limited and known to both sides - like chess, actually even more so since there is no hidden information in chess. How does chess work then? In chess your only chance to gain an advantage is it to make a move the enemy doesn´t make a "correct" answer to. Even "bad" moves are good if they confuse your enemy. You even said it yourself, in your example both players took calculated risks and yet you say that SC would be only about effectivness and efficiency. When your enemy makes a move that gives him an advantage over 75% of your available options you can either negate the advantage by "outplaying" him or by choosing a option from the other 25%, in the best case you do both. Outplaying is the safe way - you "just" have to work hard to do that, hence why everyone did it and as consequence only players that do it remain to compete against each other. The problem with RTS of course is that you usually only know about your enemys move for shure when it´s to late - it´s your "skill" to "know" your enemy better than he knows you. You are (and thats what is great about RTS) not calculating risks by looking into a Excel Table but by looking at what and how your enemy plays (to make it meta: also how your enemy used to play in previous games if you have the option) and figure out his "numbers". No dude.. I was the first person to use the word surprise... when I said it I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways. I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore and he took it to mean that I think both players have perfect information at all times(like a map hack or like chess). It was just a misunderstanding. I kind of only sifted through your post as I think your entire foundation of writing it was a bit skewed but if you want to post again after reading this then I'll give it some more attention. Having written this post I can't believe I've never heard of putting on 'fog of war' while playing chess.. maybe the first two or three rows.. how sick would that be.
+ Show Spoiler +
No I think fantasy was surprised when Jaedong ensnared him yesterday.
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On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote:
I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay!
Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time.
I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time.
I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere.
My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now.
I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right.
There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf.
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On December 24 2008 10:12 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 09:41 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 20:26 Unentschieden wrote:On December 23 2008 10:28 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 10:15 Fontong wrote:On December 23 2008 09:44 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote:
Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it? I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why. It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings. Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW. This post seriously makes me doubt your knowledge of the proscene. "You cannot surprise a player anymore." Then why do DT rushes work? In Free vs Tempest why did neither player have detection when they were both going DTs? They did not know that the other player was going DTs. In the recent PL game of Anytime vs Haksoo, Anytime manner pyloned to trick Haksoo into thinking he was going to do an aggressive build and instead when DTs. There have been so many games and series where mechanics and efficiency were not the deciding factor. Best vs Stork? Stork beat Best so badly with mind games and the like. "It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings." I would say it is the opposite now days. The the mechanics and efficiency of top players is so close that the ONLY way to get ahead in a series is to play with the mind of your opponent. Your arrogant nature and style of posting is really getting annoying and is getting in the way of you actually discussing the content of your posts. Each time someone posts who disagrees with you gets a return post like this "I could keep picking apart you post, but I won't" You know, I could pick apart your post more, but I won't. You could get more done by working with the people who post and ignoring the trolls then just flaming everyone. Now, here is my opinion of this "Switch." I don't doubt that getting used to the mechanics of WC3 will be slightly useful for playing SC2. However, the micro of SC2 is being tailored to be more like that of the original SC. From the people I have talked to who have played SC2, like Diggity, I'm getting the impression that it is pretty fast paced. WC3 really isn't that fast paced since stuff takes forever to die. In my opinion, playing a game that has the feel of SC2 will be more beneficial than playing a game that has the modern UI of SC2. Noone was surprised in that gom match dude.. As Tasteless pointed out that game, not getting detection was a calculated risk by both players. When I said you can't surprise someone I meant the way you surprise someone who has never played the game before. I fail to see how this is hard to understand as that is what we were talking about. Even with mind games like canceling a robo and going citadel, this is not the same surprise a player feels when you cannon rush behind their mins and they had no idea they should have scouted back there. Casual players will take a long long time before they can no longer be surprised. If you play enough you know what's possible always. For a competitive player, beyond getting to that point of no surprise, assuming you have what it takes, the game will really come down to being fast and efficient. I'll say it again, I think setting up the fundamentals for how you control your army is paramount. The feel is far too abstract a thing to be able to focus on... I'd agree that a large chunk of time into SC1 is necessary to be able to think properly out of the gate when you dive into SC2 but I don't think it's nearly as critical. Either way I've put years into SC and am very familiar with all of these kinds of abstractions. Also I'll reference Tempest over Jaedong.. the korean casters gave Tempest like a 9.3 macro rating on GOM and he proved it was true by just overpowering Jaedong with a perfect economy and perfect macro. (Yes I know macro is different in SC2 but this still falls under the umbrella of being efficient) Don´t be so hung up about the word suprise. What is important isn´t "suprising" the enemy since, as you said, in a game the options are limited and known to both sides - like chess, actually even more so since there is no hidden information in chess. How does chess work then? In chess your only chance to gain an advantage is it to make a move the enemy doesn´t make a "correct" answer to. Even "bad" moves are good if they confuse your enemy. You even said it yourself, in your example both players took calculated risks and yet you say that SC would be only about effectivness and efficiency. When your enemy makes a move that gives him an advantage over 75% of your available options you can either negate the advantage by "outplaying" him or by choosing a option from the other 25%, in the best case you do both. Outplaying is the safe way - you "just" have to work hard to do that, hence why everyone did it and as consequence only players that do it remain to compete against each other. The problem with RTS of course is that you usually only know about your enemys move for shure when it´s to late - it´s your "skill" to "know" your enemy better than he knows you. You are (and thats what is great about RTS) not calculating risks by looking into a Excel Table but by looking at what and how your enemy plays (to make it meta: also how your enemy used to play in previous games if you have the option) and figure out his "numbers". No dude.. I was the first person to use the word surprise... when I said it I meant how a person who played for a week vs a person who never played before would be able to completely surprise the the other player in well over a dozen different ways. I then went on to say that in modern SC, people cannot be surprised like that at all anymore and he took it to mean that I think both players have perfect information at all times(like a map hack or like chess). It was just a misunderstanding. I kind of only sifted through your post as I think your entire foundation of writing it was a bit skewed but if you want to post again after reading this then I'll give it some more attention. Having written this post I can't believe I've never heard of putting on 'fog of war' while playing chess.. maybe the first two or three rows.. how sick would that be. + Show Spoiler +No I think fantasy was surprised when Jaedong ensnared him yesterday.
Yup.. still not the same as when you don't know about banshees being cloaked units or something like that.. I mean the surprise one can experience when they are playing a game they have never played before.
This is obviously what I meant, get over it.
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On December 24 2008 10:13 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote:
I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay! Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time. I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time. I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere. My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now. I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right. There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf.
Seriously, why do you keep posting this irrelevant pictures? Who the fuck cares how your bes friend looks like? Who the hell cares if the girl in the pic is or is not your gf? Who cares if your gf does or does not use your custom hotkeys?
I'm out.
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On December 23 2008 19:32 CalvinStorm wrote:
I am pretty sure he is a troll.
He is having quite a bit of fun as you can see from the quality of his posts and has made quite a believeable and wacky character for himself.
I have noticed he has these following character traits that are quite(too) pronounced:
Arrogance (IE. "I have played WC and SC for 4 days with my off hand and can play it competently, I am not as fast but I will be soon", etc.)
Attacking critics with random comments (IE. "...you should never aspire to become a scientist", "are you a creationist or evolutionist?" etc.)
Knowledge of WC3 (I used to play WC3 a lot, I know what hes saying is quite accurate)
Machine-like thinking (IE. His theories on how SC2 will be when it comes out)
Over the top (IE. he quit his job for a game that hasn't come out yet, overly in-depth with which finger pushing what button, etc.)
From these, I conclude that he is a very entertaining troll poster who hides it incredibly well, providing us 2 extremely entertaining threads. The posters who gets angry at him make me laugh so much after his comments.
This is absolutely the greatest post I have ever read, I laughed sooo hard. It actually is great motivation that you guys think I'm so over the top. Whether or not my ideas have any merit at all I feel that being committed enough to the point were some people think you are lying is something to be really proud of.
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On December 24 2008 10:20 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 10:13 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote:
I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay! Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time. I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time. I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere. My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now. I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right. There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf. Seriously, why do you keep posting this irrelevant pictures? Who the fuck cares how your bes friend looks like? Who the hell cares if the girl in the pic is or is not your gf? Who cares if your gf does or does not use your custom hotkeys? I'm out.
Um the guy who asked cares I guess.
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On December 23 2008 20:50 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 12:50 inReacH wrote:
Even if people use all 10 hotkeys every game which WILL NOT happen.. it's still reducing the # of different thing you need hotkeys for from well over 10 to between 5 and 10 depending on style and game length. I personally would rather push tab than move my hand way out of position to hit the higher numbers.. It will be race/preference dependant but you can't deny that in SC there was way over 10 things people would hotkey if they could, and now using 10 would mean you are using them terribly inefficiently.
Seriously, do you really think it'll be such a bother to use more hotkeys? In SC2 you won't have heroes so your hand won't have to hang near the zxcv keys at all times to use this abilities. Also units won't have as much abilities/won't use them as often with a couple exceptions (just an educated guess). And you don't always have to move your hand out of position to hit the higher numbers: - you can put your army under 0, 9, 8 and use patrol move instead of attack move - with custom hotkeys you can set them all to work well with your hotkey distribution I think that you are severely overreacting and some of your assumptions are very wrong which might lead to a big disappointment on your side when the actual game comes out. Edit: Just 2 other things I'd like to add: 1: I've read 'the switch: part 1' and have to give you a big LOL at switching hands and thinking it will actually have any impact on your performance. Keys in WC3 are customizable - guess how many pros switched their main hand because of this? 2: In the op in this thread you've stated that you want to convince people that practicing WC3 is going to be good for SC2... As many people here may confirm, I am a big WC3 fan, I am heavily pro mbs/automining/smartcasting and what not. Now the question for you: If you fail to convince me then how the hell are you going to convince all those hardcore BW fans out there? Thanks for listening.
I don't use ZXCV at all for wc3 or sc1 and won't for sc2.. never said I would... You already said your done with this thread so I'll just stop reading there.
EDIT: Ok yeah I read the rest of your post and your so off-point that I will still choose not to bother responding.
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On December 24 2008 10:22 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 10:20 Manit0u wrote:On December 24 2008 10:13 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 18:09 SlickR12345 wrote:
I'm curious if you have a life, no offence though, but preparing for SC2 is a little too much.
Following development is quite enough, but with your preparation to SC2, one has to wonder if everythings okay! Ok really, this thread isn't about me at all, it's about my ideas. If you want to know I have a girlfriend of 11 months, my best friend lives across the street and he's here all the time. I workout everyday and put similar effort into it as I do starcraft 2 but it doesn't have the same depth so figuring out what kind of split(routine) works for me doesn't take a whole lot of time. I'm not working, by choice, My last job was at EA and I left to get ready for SC2. Yes I am going over the top, but I figure if I am going to bother at all why not give absolutely 100%. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to pursue what I want and the 9-5 life isn't going anywhere. My current setup look nothing like this anymore so please don't comment on that but this does show how awesome my gf is even though she's 1 handing it but I set up custom keys for her (qweasdzxc) and she uses them exclusively now. I'm on the front-left, my best friend is on the front-right. There's another picture of me in my profile.. the girl in profile pic is not my gf. Seriously, why do you keep posting this irrelevant pictures? Who the fuck cares how your bes friend looks like? Who the hell cares if the girl in the pic is or is not your gf? Who cares if your gf does or does not use your custom hotkeys? I'm out. Um the guy who asked cares I guess.
He asked if you have a life, not random pics from the internet, didn't he?
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On December 23 2008 21:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 21:26 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Also this switch is also stupid in the way that maybe SC2 wont be an esport?
I mean look at the direction it's going to! All they have done is dumb BW down and make stupid gimmicks and better graphics.
It's more like RA3 than Bw atm.
starcraft2 will be a casual RTS if you ask me. It doesn't have the quality to become an E-sport if you ask me SC2 will 100% be an e-sport. WC3 is one, pretty much everyone who has played the game (including some Wc3 players) say SC2 is either better than WC3 already or will likely be better once it's released. Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 12:01 inReacH wrote:On December 23 2008 11:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw I don't think you've addressed the fact that getting used to WC3 style MBS will not help (maybe even hurt) you when in SC2 it works differently? If you mean just because you have to push multiple times to get units from your buildings.. I think this is incredibly easy to pick up.. You can master that in under a month if you play enough. You don't even have to use your eyes or mouse to do this it is just muscle memory on your keyboard. The skill that will be harder is watching exactly what is taking place in a battle WHILE macroing. You can get a tiny bit used to this in WC3 macro but certainly not any experience in it from BW. I don't agree, for most of the early and midgame you can easily have all your production facilities keyed (4z5z6z7z8z9z0z). Honestly, I see 0 benefit from getting used to WC3 style MBS. In your original post you talk about how BW players will "waste time learning to macro", well what about all the time WC3 players will have to waste learning how to creep, learning micro that will be obsolete (using items for instance) and developing bad habits from the game playing completely differently?
Hey you know I actually partially agree with you that if someone started out playing WC3 they could potentially waste some time learning some of the more WC3 specific aspects of the game.
Since I've switched back to wc3, I have spent absolutely 0 time researching and refining my builds etc.. but I admit I already know a lot about the strategy in that game. I feel that SC2 is far enough off that it would still be worth it at this point, if you aren't playing to win and instead are just focused on good habit building.
As far as individually doing production buildings, there is literally not a chance this will be better. It's so much slower and more importantly your rally points will be much more static. When you are have low unit vs low unit battles in the early-midgame, it will be very important that you are able to get reinforcements. Think how zerg has to delay the terran as they are making their way to the zerg base before defilers, having all your units come right to you so you can alpha strike when you get perfect position is critical.. stuff like like but there will be tons more undoubtedly.
If you are trying to take their ramp/choke PvT and it requires huge attention from you because of stalker micro.. being able to just go "3 - right click" and then have all your units constantly coming to back you up is huge.
You have to push an extra 6 keys everytime you macro your way, and also actually putting your buildings in different groups takes time, also when you get more production buildings you have to redo everything, also you can't hotkey other useful stuff like observers etc..
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Sweden33719 Posts
Ok this thread is waaaaaaay past constructive and I don't see it going back there anytime soon. Closing it.
EDIT: This wasn't directed at your last post, wasn't here when I posted, however I still think it's time to close this.
To clarify tho, I wasn't saying you should use 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z in SC2, I'm saying SC1 has "macro while microing" via hotkeys.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://content.ytmnd.com/content/4/6/1/461bfb4aa368f55eff9ed7253cebcb0d.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9459/dsc00080cb0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8353/n80177540730173315644rl9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6932/n80177540748599029494km1.jpg)
