EPTEDIT: Honestly, reading through this thread I'm getting pretty sick of your attitude, it's extremely unpleasant.
And honestly, this should probably be a blog.
The Switch Part 2: How you play the game(s) - Page 3
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
EDIT: Honestly, reading through this thread I'm getting pretty sick of your attitude, it's extremely unpleasant. And honestly, this should probably be a blog. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 22 2008 22:21 Velr wrote: WC3 MBS will teach you nothing about SC2 MBS... WC3 has only 1-2 of the same productionstructure and you often WANT to stop build Units entirely for rather long times (upkeep). Inbattle-Micro. Won't work. WC3 is, thanks to retarded Heroes, about yourself not losing units while actually trying to kill something. SC2 will be more about killing expansions, gaining Mapconrol. The games are sooo diffrent... They have an entirely diffrent pace, they have an entirely diffrent underlying game mechanic, you might also play Command & Conquer RA 3 to train for SC2...... Go on, waste your time... Pretty obvious he didn't read my post and then said I was wasting my time based on preconceived conclusions he's come to about this concept.. how am I supposed to respond to that? Read my response on page 2 to someone who actually read things/posted constructively even though he didn't agree with me completely. I'm not trying to bash people but.. some people are kind of.. Honestly I guess I'm just not used to people who express things their unsure of as matter of factly contradicting people making the original point. If he wanted to question the usefullness of tab in SC2 he could have said "Hey what about this" And I could have told him about buildings being tabbed and that almost every unit in SC2 has an activatable ability lol.. even though.. there is ample information for him to find this stuff out on his own. Fine I'll just start ignoring those posters. | ||
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rkarhu
Finland570 Posts
On December 23 2008 00:38 FrozenArbiter wrote: inReach, stop telling people to stop posting. EDIT: Honestly, reading through this thread I'm getting pretty sick of your attitude, it's extremely unpleasant. And honestly, this should probably be a blog. THIS. You need to stop labeling everybody idiot/retard and stating that they didnt read your post. I did, and I still dont get the point. And I really can't fathom the reason why you are doing all these "switches". The best thing you can do to train for sc 2 is to get good at bw. So stop wasting your time and go play some iccup or something. Or get that job back which you quit because of SC2. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 23 2008 00:54 inReacH wrote: I told one guy not to post twice, after he said this Pretty obvious he didn't read my post and then said I was wasting my time based on preconceived conclusions he's come to about this concept.. how am I supposed to respond to that? Read my response on page 2 to someone who actually read things/posted constructively even though he didn't agree with me completely. I'm not trying to bash people but.. some people are kind of.. Honestly I guess I'm just not used to people who express things their unsure of as matter of factly contradicting people making the original point. If he wanted to question the usefullness of tab in SC2 he could have said "Hey what about this" And I could have told him about buildings being tabbed and that almost every unit in SC2 has an activatable ability lol.. even though.. there is ample information for him to find this stuff out on his own. Fine I'll just start ignoring those posters. Ugh, I don't even disagree a lot of the time but you state things in such a rude manner "You are out of your league", "Re-think your life", "I hate posters that.." (speaking of someone in 3rd person is kinda rude), "stop posting"... Content is fine, but you are being extremely un-diplomatic. Nobody is going to listen to you if that's how you deal with people who either don't understand what you are saying or don't agree with you. It's exactly what happened in the MBS threads (especially early on). EDIT: Hm, it seems this thread doesn't show up on the left hand section when I moved it to blogs.. Guess I'll move it back to SC2 for now. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 23 2008 01:47 rkarhu wrote: THIS. You need to stop labeling everybody idiot/retard and stating that they didnt read your post. I did, and I still dont get the point. And I really can't fathom the reason why you are doing all these "switches". The best thing you can do to train for sc 2 is to get good at bw. So stop wasting your time and go play some iccup or something. Or get that job back which you quit because of SC2. How about you go click show all pages and then CTRL + F and count the number of times I used the word retard or idiot... Pretty funny you chose to say that in the same post where you claim to have read my posts. And then you go on to contradict everything I've said because... in your words "you don't get the point" I'm not sure why you think the fact that you don't "get it" means I'm wasting my time.. even if someone disagreed with me completely the logic I'm using is rational and I expect rationality from the people who respond. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 23 2008 01:58 FrozenArbiter wrote: Ugh, I don't even disagree a lot of the time but you state things in such a rude manner "You are out of your league", "Re-think your life", "I hate posters that.." (speaking of someone in 3rd person is kinda rude), "stop posting"... Content is fine, but you are being extremely un-diplomatic. Nobody is going to listen to you if that's how you deal with people who either don't understand what you are saying or don't agree with you. It's exactly what happened in the MBS threads (especially early on). EDIT: Hm, it seems this thread doesn't show up on the left hand section when I moved it to blogs.. Guess I'll move it back to SC2 for now. I find dismissiveness to be more rude then anything I have said. I at least read what people say and address their points. How can I be expected to respond favorably when any controversial theory is met with such a lack of tactfulness by posters who from the sounds of it don't have a lot of experience with the games I'm talking about. As far as Ki_Do, I was rude and I'll edit my post.. I guess he was just trying to be funny. Before I made a single post I disliked his posting style so much but lately he has gotten a LOT better so I'll get over it. | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On December 22 2008 14:12 inReacH wrote: *removed gigantic quoted post* Is that video even related? | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
Some people think switching to WC3 is pretty gay so it's kind of related that way. *removed comment about the epicness of your quote* | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Let's get back on topic; 1) MBS - Why bother getting used to WC3 MBS when in WC3 it goes something like: 4z-tab-d and in SC2 it will be 4zzzzzzzzzddddd? In addition, wont the rythm be all wrong (IE in WC3 you stop at 50 food because you don't want to go into low upkeep, then you try to jump as high into it as possible at once so you dont suffer a long period of it). 2) I don't see the benefit of this - WC3 has the same unit limit for hotkeys as BW anyway? You are also massively underestimating how many hotkeys you'll use I think.. 4-tab is slower than simply pressing 5, hence I will most likely not key different production facilities on the same key. For instance, if I have factories+barracks I'll probably have them as 4, 5. In addition you'll definitely want to hotkey things like comsat stations and warp prisms/dropships/overlords as well as raiding groups (ie you don't want your reapers to be keyed with your marines, regardless of how many units you can keep in one hotkey). Likewise with banelings, I'd imagine? One thing I can see WC3 having an advantage over SC here in terms of practice is that you can key your production buildings with your upgrade buildings.. But seriously, I don't think that's a big deal at all. 3) Tab is huge, I agree. Mouse3 and the ` thingy seem minor (I'm assuming it's a different key on my keyboard, since I have to press shift+´ to get the ` symbol). Shift key to add to groups is in SC. Ah yes, one more thing - yes, lots of units have different abilities but thinking about it, I think you'll want to key many of them independently anyway. Some examples: Stalkers+Zealots - yeah, the stalkers have blink but the zealots don't have a manual ability, it's automatic. Yet you probably still want them in different keys no? I dunno, at least in BW I'd want to make sure my zealots ran up to the right enemy units. + You want to focus fire stalkers no? Templars+stalkers is the only combination I can think of where tabbing will be really commonly used for toss. I guess Terran (stim, siege mode) and Zerg (lurker burrow) will have more use for it, but even so, you'll often want to key lurkers in their own group so you can position them more carefully.. Not saying TAB wont be important probably just not AS important as it is in WC3. Custom hotkeys.. There ARE tools for this for SC, even though they are illegal. You mention how the lack of other features makes this irrelevant, well, you don't know how SC2 will play. You don't know what units you'll be using or what keys will be best suited for them. One thing you didn't mention is the ALT key, ever since playing a bit of WC3 and Armies of Exigo I keep trying to click ALT in SC to see the HP of units - really good feature, but it doesn't take long to get used to it (and perhaps there'll even be an option to keep it permanently on like I believe there is now in WC3). All this being said, I don't think it's a bad idea at all to play WC3 in preparation for SC2, if for nothing else but to get used to a 3D RTS. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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rkarhu
Finland570 Posts
On December 23 2008 02:04 inReacH wrote: How about you go click show all pages and then CTRL + F and count the number of times I used the word retard or idiot... Pretty funny you chose to say that in the same post where you claim to have read my posts. And then you go on to contradict everything I've said because... in your words "you don't get the point" I'm not sure why you think the fact that you don't "get it" means I'm wasting my time.. even if someone disagreed with me completely the logic I'm using is rational and I expect rationality from the people who respond. You obviously missed the point there. But I'm going to witdraw from this conversation from now. HFGL. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17281 Posts
Depends how you configure your TAB button in AoX (personally I hated it when it switched between underground/surface so I changed it to work like in WC3)  | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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NatsuTerran
United States364 Posts
Why are you going to have an easier time with SC2 by practicing MBS and mass unit select, in comparison to all those who get B on ICCUP with SBS and 12 unit select? I think those people who are already damn good at SC have a much better shot. How hard is it to go from SBS to just clicking a couple hotkeys? This is like some sort of effing joke, I'm sorry. Everyone on ICCUP is sprinting with weights attached, and because you want an edge in the running competition 2 years down the line, your going to sprint without the weights? Man, just don't quit your day job. | ||
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oki
United States35 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 23 2008 07:26 NatsuTerran wrote: Wow Op, just......wow. Your trying to prepare for SC2 mechanics 2 years in advance by playing a game that has EASY mechanics??? What the hell makes you think your going pro? Are you even GOOD at video games? I'd bet my life you will just hit a wall regardless of how much you practice unless you've already made it big in some other game. Why are you going to have an easier time with SC2 by practicing MBS and mass unit select, in comparison to all those who get B on ICCUP with SBS and 12 unit select? I think those people who are already damn good at SC have a much better shot. How hard is it to go from SBS to just clicking a couple hotkeys? This is like some sort of effing joke, I'm sorry. Everyone on ICCUP is sprinting with weights attached, and because you want an edge in the running competition 2 years down the line, your going to sprint without the weights? Man, just don't quit your day job. He said he reached 1st place in the TFT ladder last season, assuming that's true (and I have no real reason to doubt it) that'd mean he's pretty good at least. And if WC3 had the same style of MBS as SC2 then I think he'd have a better point, as it is I think you'll just end up with the wrong muscle memory. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 23 2008 02:33 FrozenArbiter wrote: EDIT: Made some additions to 1 and 3. Let's get back on topic; 1) MBS - Why bother getting used to WC3 MBS when in WC3 it goes something like: 4z-tab-d and in SC2 it will be 4zzzzzzzzzddddd? In addition, wont the rythm be all wrong (IE in WC3 you stop at 50 food because you don't want to go into low upkeep, then you try to jump as high into it as possible at once so you dont suffer a long period of it). 2) I don't see the benefit of this - WC3 has the same unit limit for hotkeys as BW anyway? You are also massively underestimating how many hotkeys you'll use I think.. 4-tab is slower than simply pressing 5, hence I will most likely not key different production facilities on the same key. For instance, if I have factories+barracks I'll probably have them as 4, 5. In addition you'll definitely want to hotkey things like comsat stations and warp prisms/dropships/overlords as well as raiding groups (ie you don't want your reapers to be keyed with your marines, regardless of how many units you can keep in one hotkey). Likewise with banelings, I'd imagine? One thing I can see WC3 having an advantage over SC here in terms of practice is that you can key your production buildings with your upgrade buildings.. But seriously, I don't think that's a big deal at all. 3) Tab is huge, I agree. Mouse3 and the ` thingy seem minor (I'm assuming it's a different key on my keyboard, since I have to press shift+´ to get the ` symbol). Shift key to add to groups is in SC. Ah yes, one more thing - yes, lots of units have different abilities but thinking about it, I think you'll want to key many of them independently anyway. Some examples: Stalkers+Zealots - yeah, the stalkers have blink but the zealots don't have a manual ability, it's automatic. Yet you probably still want them in different keys no? I dunno, at least in BW I'd want to make sure my zealots ran up to the right enemy units. + You want to focus fire stalkers no? Templars+stalkers is the only combination I can think of where tabbing will be really commonly used for toss. I guess Terran (stim, siege mode) and Zerg (lurker burrow) will have more use for it, but even so, you'll often want to key lurkers in their own group so you can position them more carefully.. Not saying TAB wont be important probably just not AS important as it is in WC3. Custom hotkeys.. There ARE tools for this for SC, even though they are illegal. You mention how the lack of other features makes this irrelevant, well, you don't know how SC2 will play. You don't know what units you'll be using or what keys will be best suited for them. One thing you didn't mention is the ALT key, ever since playing a bit of WC3 and Armies of Exigo I keep trying to click ALT in SC to see the HP of units - really good feature, but it doesn't take long to get used to it (and perhaps there'll even be an option to keep it permanently on like I believe there is now in WC3). All this being said, I don't think it's a bad idea at all to play WC3 in preparation for SC2, if for nothing else but to get used to a 3D RTS. 1) It's not definitively about training what you have to do in WC3, it's about not wasting so so so much time struggling with mechanics that aren't in SC2. It takes up so much of your time. Also people think upkeep changes the game more than it does. You get good normal MBS macroing up to 50 food which takes a bit of time and then you spend your money on upgrades and expanding until you decide to bust up to 80 food cap with quite a bit to do... Also.. microing heroes/few units early game is exactly like doing 6 lings in ZvP or single zeals in PvP. 2) I kind of agree with you here.. top players will definitely be hotkeying many units that need special attention. Bear in mind that they will likely give casters priority so my example from before is possibly inaccurate.. I mean that HT's will be automatically highlighted when in a group with zeals. Raid groups, observers etc will often need groups of their own. However this kind of is another point I could have made as it is the same situation in WC3.. undead and ne will often creep with ghouls or BM/archers while harassing with DK/DH I'm really looking forward to deciding how to use my hotkey real estate, this is something that I think can't be predicted as accurately as most other things. Fun stuff for sure! 3) I have to plug mouse3 again, it is so awesome..If vertical scrolling wasn't a bit harder than horizontal scrolling then I feel many players would switch to mouse3. I plan on submitting a beta suggestion that for the mouse3 button that would make it so the UI won't get in the way.. EG you could mouse3 even on a units ability and it would grab the map under the UI instead. This is safe because noone ever accidentally mouse3's and it's much better because why should it be harder to scroll vertically? Makes no sense. "You mention how the lack of other features makes this irrelevant, well, you don't know how SC2 will play. You don't know what units you'll be using or what keys will be best suited for them." I honestly believe I can theorize and get the keys near perfect after having only played 50 games and confirming it will be very similar to existing trends. I may very well have to switch some stuff around.. I would put money on having switched hotkeys more than anyone else on these forums so I am not very resistant to this prospect at all. Lastly I can't imagine them not having healthbars always up for SC2.. I don't remember if it was in the build I played but it's quite necessary for a modern RTS imo. thx for posting.. I think I will try to start using more numeral hotkeys when I'm practicing even if it sometimes seems superfluous.. good to get practice on that. Saying that kind of made me realize that another huge similarity between WC3 and SC2 is that you are often doing fast screenchanges/multitasking between two sets of units in both games which isn't very often the case in SC1 | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 23 2008 04:37 Cheerio wrote: Imo it doesn't pay off to prepare yourself mechanically to some game - one week of actually playing a game would do better than a half-year of "preparing". And what is 1 week if SC2 is here for years? And if it's not why wasting your time preparing for it? I completely agree that 1 week of SC2 would beat out 6 months of preparation on a different game.. but you have to ask yourself why. It's only because of strategy and timings. These things are a given at a top level of play.. they get so much attention passively that any two players competing at a top level know the ins and outs of these so much that you cannot surprise a player anymore and they will certainly not be giving you an advantage by fucking up their build. It comes down to mechanics and efficiency, which boils down to the fundamentals of how you control your units and buildings. Learning how to do everything the correct and most efficient way is absolutely paramount and WC3 is simply a better way to do that than BW. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 23 2008 07:26 NatsuTerran wrote: Wow Op, just......wow. Your trying to prepare for SC2 mechanics 2 years in advance by playing a game that has EASY mechanics??? What the hell makes you think your going pro? Are you even GOOD at video games? I'd bet my life you will just hit a wall regardless of how much you practice unless you've already made it big in some other game. Why are you going to have an easier time with SC2 by practicing MBS and mass unit select, in comparison to all those who get B on ICCUP with SBS and 12 unit select? I think those people who are already damn good at SC have a much better shot. How hard is it to go from SBS to just clicking a couple hotkeys? This is like some sort of effing joke, I'm sorry. Everyone on ICCUP is sprinting with weights attached, and because you want an edge in the running competition 2 years down the line, your going to sprint without the weights? Man, just don't quit your day job. First off, I already addressed your analogy in the OP.. "Some will argue doing something harder than what you have to do will make you more accomplished at the task you're actually training for. It's just not close enough where that kind of thinking is relevant. I used to think this but it's just straight up a different skill. Modern macro doesn't require you to go back to your base. That doesn't mean the skill of fast screen switching is obsolete but that skill is not the same as macro and is much easier." Second, if I wasn't sure I had the stamina to play 100 hours a week I wouldn't be bothering with any of this and I'd play SC2 for fun and be ok with that. I know what it's like to play 40 games a day. Also, yes I know I learn quickly and believe I can compete. Is that what you want to hear? I'm not even really trying to prove to anyone that this stuff is worth it for me.. I will prove myself when the time comes. Questioning whether or not I'm 'good enough' is irrelevant since I am not posting about myself, I am posting about my ideas. One more thing.. even if I was a dumb schmuck, things like "What the hell makes you think your going pro?" is something that really shouldn't ever be said to anyone. That's what abusive fathers and shitty teachers say to their kids. I'm never not going to give 100% at something because it is hard and you really shouldn't encourage that behavior to anyone. This will sound condescending but try to lean that before you have kids. | ||
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