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On December 04 2008 02:35 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 02:25 Salv wrote:On December 04 2008 02:22 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 01:51 Raithed wrote:
TvP mm > early P uptil P can amass some cannon defense then tech to goon/storm/speedlot/reaver... etc. after that T has to switch to metal and ABUSE cliffing.
ZvT lings(9poolspeed mass ling), all T is doing atm is defend and get marine, medic, firebat into mmtankvessel and use some dropships and abuse cliffing. even in bgh, the more bases you give zerg, zerg will just run over you if they can macro.
ZvP > Z will overrun P from beginning and do a tech switch, P has to defend for the time being until they can get speedlot/archon/storm and secure a base while killing off a zerg base etc.
i admit macro for P is easier than Z or T but in some cases theyll have to defend, HOWEVER this is VERY dependant on starting positions. if T is close = you win. if T is far, mm > zeal/goon until you amass. if Z is close = hard. if Z is far = good for you. i can't imagine the matchups going the way you say they do, are you sure you're experienced in high level BGH? Did you just say high level BGH? i guarantee that if you play some good BGH players 1v1 pvp on low money maps you will be absolutely destroyed, their low tech unit control and overall macro is very strong. look at the testie-kural series for proof, or that hnr)insane (a bgher on our staff) won the endurance tournament.
I always thought that Testie-Kural series was a joke or something, didn't know it was a legitimately played series.
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Braavos36401 Posts
On December 04 2008 03:02 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 02:35 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 02:25 Salv wrote:On December 04 2008 02:22 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 01:51 Raithed wrote:
TvP mm > early P uptil P can amass some cannon defense then tech to goon/storm/speedlot/reaver... etc. after that T has to switch to metal and ABUSE cliffing.
ZvT lings(9poolspeed mass ling), all T is doing atm is defend and get marine, medic, firebat into mmtankvessel and use some dropships and abuse cliffing. even in bgh, the more bases you give zerg, zerg will just run over you if they can macro.
ZvP > Z will overrun P from beginning and do a tech switch, P has to defend for the time being until they can get speedlot/archon/storm and secure a base while killing off a zerg base etc.
i admit macro for P is easier than Z or T but in some cases theyll have to defend, HOWEVER this is VERY dependant on starting positions. if T is close = you win. if T is far, mm > zeal/goon until you amass. if Z is close = hard. if Z is far = good for you. i can't imagine the matchups going the way you say they do, are you sure you're experienced in high level BGH? Did you just say high level BGH? i guarantee that if you play some good BGH players 1v1 pvp on low money maps you will be absolutely destroyed, their low tech unit control and overall macro is very strong. look at the testie-kural series for proof, or that hnr)insane (a bgher on our staff) won the endurance tournament. I always thought that Testie-Kural series was a joke or something, didn't know it was a legitimately played series.
did you watch the games? it's a pretty convincing "joke" then
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United States37500 Posts
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On December 04 2008 03:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 03:02 Salv wrote:On December 04 2008 02:35 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 02:25 Salv wrote:On December 04 2008 02:22 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 01:51 Raithed wrote:
TvP mm > early P uptil P can amass some cannon defense then tech to goon/storm/speedlot/reaver... etc. after that T has to switch to metal and ABUSE cliffing.
ZvT lings(9poolspeed mass ling), all T is doing atm is defend and get marine, medic, firebat into mmtankvessel and use some dropships and abuse cliffing. even in bgh, the more bases you give zerg, zerg will just run over you if they can macro.
ZvP > Z will overrun P from beginning and do a tech switch, P has to defend for the time being until they can get speedlot/archon/storm and secure a base while killing off a zerg base etc.
i admit macro for P is easier than Z or T but in some cases theyll have to defend, HOWEVER this is VERY dependant on starting positions. if T is close = you win. if T is far, mm > zeal/goon until you amass. if Z is close = hard. if Z is far = good for you. i can't imagine the matchups going the way you say they do, are you sure you're experienced in high level BGH? Did you just say high level BGH? i guarantee that if you play some good BGH players 1v1 pvp on low money maps you will be absolutely destroyed, their low tech unit control and overall macro is very strong. look at the testie-kural series for proof, or that hnr)insane (a bgher on our staff) won the endurance tournament. I always thought that Testie-Kural series was a joke or something, didn't know it was a legitimately played series. did you watch the games? it's a pretty convincing "joke" then
No, I've never seen them. I didn't watch them because I recall someone telling me that it wasn't an actual series; or something like that. This result is intriguing though.
I will definitely watch them now though.
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On December 04 2008 02:22 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 01:51 Raithed wrote:
TvP mm > early P uptil P can amass some cannon defense then tech to goon/storm/speedlot/reaver... etc. after that T has to switch to metal and ABUSE cliffing.
ZvT lings(9poolspeed mass ling), all T is doing atm is defend and get marine, medic, firebat into mmtankvessel and use some dropships and abuse cliffing. even in bgh, the more bases you give zerg, zerg will just run over you if they can macro.
ZvP > Z will overrun P from beginning and do a tech switch, P has to defend for the time being until they can get speedlot/archon/storm and secure a base while killing off a zerg base etc.
i admit macro for P is easier than Z or T but in some cases theyll have to defend, HOWEVER this is VERY dependant on starting positions. if T is close = you win. if T is far, mm > zeal/goon until you amass. if Z is close = hard. if Z is far = good for you. i can't imagine the matchups going the way you say they do, are you sure you're experienced in high level BGH?
imo yes.
On December 04 2008 02:26 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 02:01 Raithed wrote:
oh and this is to not_computer or anyone whos played bgh for over 2k games in team vs team/"pro" matches, how do you wall off 12? ive tried various ways but zerglings always gets through. do you use ssb? Although I don't fall under your criteria of over 2k games of bgh... neither ling can get to the other side.
thanks a lot, whenever i want to play terran and spawn 12 ill use this. 
On December 04 2008 02:32 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 01:51 Raithed wrote:
TvP mm > early P uptil P can amass some cannon defense then tech to goon/storm/speedlot/reaver... etc. after that T has to switch to metal and ABUSE cliffing.
ZvT lings(9poolspeed mass ling), all T is doing atm is defend and get marine, medic, firebat into mmtankvessel and use some dropships and abuse cliffing. even in bgh, the more bases you give zerg, zerg will just run over you if they can macro.
ZvP > Z will overrun P from beginning and do a tech switch, P has to defend for the time being until they can get speedlot/archon/storm and secure a base while killing off a zerg base etc.
i admit macro for P is easier than Z or T but in some cases theyll have to defend, HOWEVER this is VERY dependant on starting positions. if T is close = you win. if T is far, mm > zeal/goon until you amass. if Z is close = hard. if Z is far = good for you. I'm pretty sure your wrong on everything. T can just metal vs zerg, with 2 gas in their main. Toss forces tons of sunkens vs zerg, which kills their econ. Really zerg can't win a 1v1 unless it's vs zerg on bgh. When you don't even know how to wall one of the positions on the map, you're probably not experienced enough to know all the balance issues.
i read mine once again and i guess im more focused on the "3v3 aspect" as opposed to 1v1 but yeah you can seal off and go metal.
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Braavos36401 Posts
high level 1v1 on bgh rarely, if ever, goes the way you described in in those
maybe i'm completely wrong and you're some hidden gosu
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Zerg is completely useless 1v1 on BGH. Protoss 2gate Zealot pretty much stagnates their economy, forcing them to play just like they would on a normal map, while the protoss economy explodes because of constant probe production.
Why?
Hatchery produces drones at exactly the same speed as a Nexus. Except every n'th larva has to become an overlord. An building anything, like a sunken colony or a new hatchery, costs a worker. It is impossible for a zerg to keep up economically. Adding insult to injury, a hatchery, producing at the same speed as a gateway, costs more than double. On a normal map, Mutalisk and Lurker tech can make up for this, but not on BGH.
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Don't you guys mean Koolam??? I remember watching those games from Spitfire's Testie rep pack. Not very serious-looking games, however...but still interesting to watch. Testie even went muta-only in one of the zvp games, and won easily after dodging some poor storms.
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On December 04 2008 03:51 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Don't you guys mean Koolam???
Yeah it was Koolam.
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Braavos36401 Posts
i was under the impression kural and koolam were the same guy, and that at the very least, the pvp portion of his series vs testie was serious
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On December 04 2008 02:29 onihunter wrote:
Slightly off-topic: Anyone have any good strats for FFA BGH?
(pick P)
quick expand with canon.. ppl wont try to rush you
carrier rape ppl after you get 6 of them 
work if you don't get drop.
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lol
this thread inspired me to spend the last hour watching BGH games on youtube
EDIT: would really love a link to testie games on BGH tho. i found an old thread about it but its link was dead
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I can see how P is good vs Z, but I think T is the best on this map.
Mainly because it's hard for P or Z to get a good flank on this map considering the entrances are so narrow. T can wall off almost every entrance somehow, and tanks can reach most natural expansions from across the water. + tank dropping ability from the ride. The only problem is that I can see that it would be hard for T to get another expo.
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although i've been playing bw for nearly a decade, i never played very seriously and consequently was inactive watching replays and vods, or playing bgh, for about 2/3rds of the time. about 1/3 i played normal or low-money maps. like many i was introduced to bw by people who played bgh and sadly i never really broke out of that rut. at this point in my life i don't have the time to play bw at much beyond a decent-noob level, but i still love playing and would probably have stopped a long time ago if not for TL.net. that said, i have definitely played btw 3-4k plus games of bgh under various accounts which have been erased due to periods of inactivity. that said, i definitely think p is the strongest race on bgh, though it is far from an automatic victory. the ability of p to mass produce units which are somewhat cost prohibitive on low-money or normal maps, makes them very strong. if you have ever been doom-dropped with 12 reavers you know what i mean. beyond this, i agree with hot-bid that early unit control and macro of bgh players can be excellent. high level bgh players seem to tend toward p, i assume simply b/c unlimited funds essentially negates one of the major weaknesses of protoss which is the expense of thier units.
i know there is in existence a 3v3 bgh game with boxer and nada et al. though it will of course be for an older version of bw. idk if i still have it...maybe on an old computer
i might have the koolam v testie games also on an old comp.
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You must have serious problems if you can't beat cannons with a fast pure tank/vulture build. In theory tanks do knock down cannons before carriers arrive, don't make things up. If your seriously waiting for late game and hitting 200/200 to siege those cannons, you deserve to lose to a protoss taking their time going carriers.
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Any good replays of 1v1 bgh or of hnr)insane? I know it isn't a common map to be played competitively.
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On December 04 2008 04:39 Snacks wrote:
You must have serious problems if you can't beat cannons with a fast pure tank/vulture build. In theory tanks do knock down cannons before carriers arrive, don't make things up. If your seriously waiting for late game and hitting 200/200 to siege those cannons, you deserve to lose to a protoss taking their time going carriers.
He's talking about FFA. Nobody goes "fast pure tank/vulture" in FFA.
In any case, Zerg has a couple of legitimate strats in 3v3, but some of them are team dependent. Obviously, 5-9 pool is popular. Other times, a standard 12 hat 11 pool is strong. If you have a partner close by (11 with 12 or 6 with 7) and don't think they'll rush, 12 hat 14 hat 14 pool 14 gas pretty much wins if it completes and they haven't attacked. Midgame you can either mass muta, mass hydra, mass ling or lurkling, all with doom drops, and late game is expo dependent, but usually mass muta, mass hydra, or mass ultraling, all with doom drops and defilers.
I agree that at the highest level of bgh, a ppp team is pretty much the strongest, but it doesn't mean a ppz or ppt can't win.
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On December 04 2008 04:26 Resonance wrote:
I can see how P is good vs Z, but I think T is the best on this map.
Mainly because it's hard for P or Z to get a good flank on this map considering the entrances are so narrow. T can wall off almost every entrance somehow, and tanks can reach most natural expansions from across the water. + tank dropping ability from the ride. The only problem is that I can see that it would be hard for T to get another expo.
T is limited by gas, P is limited by mins. There are 2x as many geysers in each main, but 3x as many minerals.
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On December 04 2008 03:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
high level 1v1 on bgh rarely, if ever, goes the way you described in in those
maybe i'm completely wrong and you're some hidden gosu
yeah i was thinking about 3v3 too much, bc of positions.
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the endurance games are on www.sc2gg.com --> diggity's youtube site. I (jaweajp) almost beat him on bgh, but he's the better player overall and ended up winning T_T but yeah, bgh heavily favours protoss, just like in fastest, protoss is heavily favoured
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1869/scscrnshot120308102306xq4.jpg)
