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On December 04 2008 02:25 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 02:22 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 01:51 Raithed wrote:
TvP mm > early P uptil P can amass some cannon defense then tech to goon/storm/speedlot/reaver... etc. after that T has to switch to metal and ABUSE cliffing.
ZvT lings(9poolspeed mass ling), all T is doing atm is defend and get marine, medic, firebat into mmtankvessel and use some dropships and abuse cliffing. even in bgh, the more bases you give zerg, zerg will just run over you if they can macro.
ZvP > Z will overrun P from beginning and do a tech switch, P has to defend for the time being until they can get speedlot/archon/storm and secure a base while killing off a zerg base etc.
i admit macro for P is easier than Z or T but in some cases theyll have to defend, HOWEVER this is VERY dependant on starting positions. if T is close = you win. if T is far, mm > zeal/goon until you amass. if Z is close = hard. if Z is far = good for you. i can't imagine the matchups going the way you say they do, are you sure you're experienced in high level BGH? THere are people out there who take BGH very very seriously. Did you just say high level BGH?
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On December 04 2008 04:39 Snacks wrote:
You must have serious problems if you can't beat cannons with a fast pure tank/vulture build. In theory tanks do knock down cannons before carriers arrive, don't make things up. If your seriously waiting for late game and hitting 200/200 to siege those cannons, you deserve to lose to a protoss taking their time going carriers.
I don't know if this is directed at me, but yes, I have problems VS a quick Carrier rush.
I do 7 depot, 10 racks, 12 refinery, then I go straight for tank drop for his expand to slow economy, or I just walk the tanks across the damn river to hit his expand. I've had some success dropping with goliaths before the carriers come out, but it seems that cannons can hold off long enough to get at least a carrier out. This has just been my experience. After comsating and seeing he goes carries, I go 3/3 goliaths maxed, but pretty much in my experience you have to push the P before he gets carriers and on BGH he definitely has the resources to do so.
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quick carrier rush? really? just make some tanks and get some dropships and then drop tanks on his base? and dont go 7depot, 10rax 12 refinery. 9depot 12rax/12gas (yeah play eco if you know hes going for quick carrier rush) oh and im greedy on BGH like always. and its not like he can make 963456 cannons, he would make 6-7 and while you continue to kill his cannons with tanks, he will make 2-3 in the back and you just keep pushing him back. i mean, just get 5-6 tanks = fast cannon rape. then switch to either wraiths or goliaths.
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I will definitely give this a try. If I rush for tanks, sometimes he can even get some cannons to open up my wall in, but I've kept an scv on the lookout in the front to stop that from happening. One game I know I went straight for dropship + 2 tanks on his eco and he already had his fleet beacon. If I remember correctly he was producing carriers, too.
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United States4991 Posts
On December 04 2008 01:33 Not_Computer wrote:
For BGH 1v1:
P >> Z or T
Z > T early game (lings > rines without medics)
T >> Z mid-game (mm or vults >> marine/hydra and even lurkers in some cases because of abundance of minerals)
I guess Z > T early game if you come out, but you can safely wait in base until you have enough of a MM ball that lings have no chance vs you. If he techs to lurkers in time to block this, then he totally sacrificed his economy.
You can tank cliff all bases except 12 and 3. In order of ease -> 5,9,11,6,7,1
You can cannon 11,12,5,7
Well, 6 and 9 aren't actually 'cliff' tanks, but rather 'behind the minerals, unreachable by melee' tanks (so it's less effective against ranged units than when the tanks are actually on the cliff at other spots).
The community of mannered "veteran" players have been diminishing a lot, most of the people you find nowadays either suck, hack (whether blatantly or subtly), or both, and are really bm. USWest channel: marlboro, usually has mannered players (at least more mannered than the majority...) and if you want some USEast channels just PM me if interested.
I haven't been on BW in a while, but marlboro is generally relatively bm in my experience  . East you used to be able to find inners in )V( and motel [although skill level was generally low-ish]. brood war bgh on europe, too, although it's not super active, some of the best BGHers do play there (although it's a crapshoot, because I think a lot of players there are also pretty bad).
TvP mm > early P uptil P can amass some cannon defense then tech to goon/storm/speedlot/reaver... etc. after that T has to switch to metal and ABUSE cliffing.
ZvT lings(9poolspeed mass ling), all T is doing atm is defend and get marine, medic, firebat into mmtankvessel and use some dropships and abuse cliffing. even in bgh, the more bases you give zerg, zerg will just run over you if they can macro.
ZvP > Z will overrun P from beginning and do a tech switch, P has to defend for the time being until they can get speedlot/archon/storm and secure a base while killing off a zerg base etc.
Well, MM > slow Zealots, yeah. However, no decent protoss is going to stick to slow Zealots. Dragoons are quite effective against MM, especially early on, pressuring/picking off Marines. I think one of the imbalances of PvT on BGH is comsats: on low money maps, you get X comsat energy over time, and both players have Y money to play with (so you have X/Y energy for countering things like DTs). However, on BGH it's more like 2Y money, so you have X/2Y, which means you have effectively about 1/2 the amount of energy for countering DTs. Protoss can effectively pump DTs once they tech to Templar Archives, and a Terran who went MM is stuck either: turret pushing [which is fine if you're 11v12, but if you're 7v1, that's going to take an eternity] or teching to vessel, both of which are slow and allow the Protoss to easily crush a MM army.
This is ignoring the fact that top BGH P players have Dragoon micro/positioning which will make you cry (and I suck at this compared to a lot of them, that's not really an area of BGH I excel in, I'm more of a transitioning tech/macro/zealot micro player) and stop MM attacks anyway.
ZvT, T gets Marine/Medic/(Firebat) [Firebat isn't super necessary, as MM effectively counters Lings when you have enough since the Lings can't flank beyond a certain point; 1 or 2 do help though]. Z can only begin to compete when they tech to Hive, but they can't really get there vs a competent Terran player. Terran doesn't need to expand quickly in order to have a large economy (modern TvZ is heavily based upon fast expanding, which ends up delaying an attack; you achieve a similar economy on BGH without expanding, but end up attacking significantly quicker).
Essentially, the Zerg issue on BGH is larvae: Zerg can't make both an army and an economy at once. You either sacrifice your economy and get an army (in which case your opponent plays 'slow' to blunt your army and ends up outmacroing you) or you build your economy (in which case you either get run over or end up spending so much on defense that you don't have an economy (or you simply still get run over because defense doesn't really block everything, it just slows it down)).
I assume [hope] ZvP > Z means P > Z. Z can pressure with 9 pool (although forge FE easily is a win vs that if you know he's goign to do that). Ultimately, though, Lings can pressure you for a bit, but Zealots end up defeating 9 pool on BGH because the Zerg can't both macro up an economy and build a sufficient army. Cannoning up for the tech switch is pretty easy, and will end up leaving your economy significantly stronger than the Zerg's. Basically, it just comes down to Zerg sucking because they can't compete economically.
I haven't played much PvZ 1v1 on BGH simply because Z is regarded as so much weaker there are almost no players of Z 1v1 on BGH.
On December 04 2008 02:01 Raithed wrote:
oh and this is to not_computer or anyone whos played bgh for over 2k games in team vs team/"pro" matches, how do you wall off 12? ive tried various ways but zerglings always gets through. do you use ssb?
There are a couple of ways of doing this, although in practice you generally just don't wall 12 because both walls are really far from your main and both put marines out on the 'wrong' side of the wall. The wall posted by Kau works, there's also a wall which blocks for both 11/12 further down and requires only a Barracks (so if you're 12 it doesn't wall vs 11, but vs the rest of the map)
On December 04 2008 03:59 grobo wrote:Yeah it was Koolam.
Kural = Koolam (and some other names too).
On December 04 2008 04:26 Resonance wrote:
I can see how P is good vs Z, but I think T is the best on this map.
Mainly because it's hard for P or Z to get a good flank on this map considering the entrances are so narrow. T can wall off almost every entrance somehow, and tanks can reach most natural expansions from across the water. + tank dropping ability from the ride. The only problem is that I can see that it would be hard for T to get another expo.
In theory, your point is somewhat valid. However, Terran gets massively contained early on (they simply can't push out for a while, even with a 2 fact or 3 fact build), and quick DTs keep them bottled up relatively effectively. Basically, PvT you can do something like: fg (fast goon) ==> 3/4 gate goon (pressure heavily) ==> DT (pump DTs; there's simply not enough comsat energy to move out an army vs DTs which are staggered so you only get one per scan) [and preserve goons too so they don't just run into your base and use scan obviously] ==> macro ground and tech relatively quickly to Carrier.
On December 04 2008 05:43 stalife wrote:the endurance games are on www.sc2gg.com --> diggity's youtube site. I (jaweajp) almost beat him on bgh, but he's the better player overall and ended up winning T_T but yeah, bgh heavily favours protoss, just like in fastest, protoss is heavily favoured
Yep, stalife had me extremely beaten on BGH I went for a quick-ish expo and neglected army composition such that he broke my expansion and killed it T_T
Someone mentioned Cannon ==> Carrier (I don't feel like finding the specific post). It's really not effective against Terran because a multiple factory push just breaks down the cannons quickly. Carriers by themselves in small numbers are pretty ineffective against ranged goliaths, so you shouldn't really have much problem killing him quickly.
Someone mentioned 1v1 BGH replays: there aren't a huge amount out there, because mostly the BGH community plays team games. These are my games from endurance: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HnRInsane/endurance.zip (not super high quality btw, some of them I play pretty poorly in :D The ones prefixed bgh are from the qualifier, the ones prefixed endurance are from the semifinals/finals. Magolpy = some A- korean player(? probably no known aka) jaweajp = stalife demonologist = lastshadow) Go check out diggity's vids on endurance though, cuz he's a cool guy!
e: presumably it's obvious since the same player is in all the games, but I'm Racquetball in those reps.
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United States4991 Posts
I'll upload the Testie vs Kural games when I get home, I have to go for now.
Also 2pacalypse- is a strong BGHer who posts here a bit.
Ganfei (despite being hated by a portion of TL) is a strong BGHer too, although I don't think he'll come and identify himself by posting due to probably being banned.
Gandalf is also a strong BGHer who posts here more than the others.
(there are probably others, but those are the ones who I know are in both the low/BGH community)
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yeah thats what i meant insane, AT LEAST SOMEONE KNOWS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. SORT OF!
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If you just want to win in bgh, stick with protoss. Infinite minerals make their units super fast to make and replace. There are only 2 gas in main, makes it hard for terran and zerg to mass effective counter units. (mass ultra with 2 gas does not work).
However in fastest map, if you can survive to late game, I believe zerg is very strong because of there are 8 gas per base. More then enough to make what ever units you need.
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Personally, I also think that T is strongest on this map. P's only option is either REALLY good Jangbi>NaDa storms or carriers. If he goes air, then I mean...there are enough resources to mass upgraded gols and even wraiths. A few science vessels and well-placed EMPs will somewhat make up for the greater number of carriers you'll have to deal with, imo.
A T slow push is unstoppable on this map without air.
On December 04 2008 05:47 jra64 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 04:39 Snacks wrote:
You must have serious problems if you can't beat cannons with a fast pure tank/vulture build. In theory tanks do knock down cannons before carriers arrive, don't make things up. If your seriously waiting for late game and hitting 200/200 to siege those cannons, you deserve to lose to a protoss taking their time going carriers. I don't know if this is directed at me, but yes, I have problems VS a quick Carrier rush. I do 7 depot, 10 racks, 12 refinery, then I go straight for tank drop for his expand to slow economy, or I just walk the tanks across the damn river to hit his expand. I've had some success dropping with goliaths before the carriers come out, but it seems that cannons can hold off long enough to get at least a carrier out. This has just been my experience. After comsating and seeing he goes carries, I go 3/3 goliaths maxed, but pretty much in my experience you have to push the P before he gets carriers and on BGH he definitely has the resources to do so.
I do believe depot should go down at 8 or 9.
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United States4991 Posts
I think it's better to refinery on 11 on BGH, but 11 or 12 refinery should both beat cannon-->carrier
(and yeah, depot 8, not 7, unless you mean 7 scvs out and the 8th making, but it's standard to say the supply count, not actual mining SCVs). If he goes cannon==>carrier, you should be killing him before +1 is finished, let alone +3/+3.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HnRInsane/TestieVKoolam.zip
Testie vs Koolam on BGH.
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Protoss is not necessarily the strongest 1v1 on BGH but it is the strongest in team games on BGH. That said, Z < P 1v1 on BGH and Z <<<<<<< T 1v1 on BGH, at least in the hands of two fairly skilled players or equally skilled players.
As for zerg, zerg sucks ass on BGH. It's a matter of the way economy works. Think about it this way. On a low money map, the main has maybe 8-10 mineral patches. Off of a 9 pool, the zerg can still have one drone on each patch. Even hunters has 10 mineral patches. But BGH has 15 mineral patches. This means that the protoss/terran's ability to continuously make workers throughout the entire early game of making units pays off far more than the zergs. The zerg can certainly keep up with the protoss or terran for maybe 5 minutes, but after that it's over unless the zerg has really really hurt the T or P. Protoss can easily support 4-5 gate zealots by the 5 minute mark on BGH, because they're getting far more minerals than on low money simply by virtue of the fact that their 25 probes are mining from 15 patches instead of 9 patches like on python. This advantage does not help zerg at all.
PvT on BGH is different for the same reasons I just listed. There are specific BGH BO's, like 3 gate fast goon, that are just not doable on low money, because once you get past 9 probes mining minerals, you're already taking in more money over the same period of time than you could in low money. MM gets SLAUGHTERED by goons on BGH, unless your allies buy you time to really get a huge mass of MM, and in terms of 1v1 you'd have to play a really turtling, fast siege build vs goons because the normal 5 rines FD or w/e you want to do won't work when your opponent can have 9-10 goons at the time they have 5 on low money
Positions play a huge role in BGH, as in any 3v3 or 4v4. 5 can tank 3's gas from below from his own base, you can tank most of the naturals' mineral lines from across the rivers, you can put tanks at 3 to get free shots at any units coming out of 5 or tanks at 9 nat to get free shots at anything coming from shared positions at 6/7, etc.
Protoss late game air with well microed carriers and arbiters is far stronger than even a 200/200 mass of terran 3/3 liaths. The way the map is designed is like carrier heaven; every single path is narrow, you can run away at any point on the map, well placed stasis at chokes and on chunks of units will completely rape the terran. You may not be able to fight the huge mass of 3/3 liath's straight up, but then...you're not supposed to. Micro well on BGH and carriers >>> liath due to the pathing and terrain
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United States4991 Posts
On December 04 2008 07:54 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
NoobsOfWrath is a good BGHer who gets a  from me btw! :D
There are also some BGHers who may/may not lurk here like Lousy_Robot, Locutus_of_Borg, Dakota_Fanning, and Huascar (judging by the fact that they all have accounts here), but I'd say they're no more than midtier.
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the best strategy is alt+q+q
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Forgot to mention that on BGH I believe the strongest team is either PZZ and PPZ, depending on spawn positions. PPZ probably wins out over PZZ in terms of playing vs RRR but PZZ can be the better occasionally.
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On December 04 2008 08:59 revoluti0nX wrote:
the best strategy is alt+q+q
Shit dude, this has become a real trend and it's kind of annoying.
Insane's REALLY good at something. If you're looking for a sampling of his micro, look up his game in the second TL show match. He stops trying half way through but his initial micro is really good.
Another anecdotal story: I know a kid who can pull of SK terran on BGH maps. I'm so impressed with it cause it's ridiculously hard to do. His timing and stuff is off normal 1v1 though.
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theres basically really no bgh strategy.
each race has only 1 build that works
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On December 04 2008 14:52 b_unnies wrote:
theres basically really no bgh strategy.
each race has only 1 build that works
So, like, for terran, what is it? M/M or metal? Mutas or hydras? Toss?
I mean, there is a strategy forum purge coming up, you know.
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On December 04 2008 07:54 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
Protoss is not necessarily the strongest 1v1 on BGH but it is the strongest in team games on BGH. That said, Z < P 1v1 on BGH and Z <<<<<<< T 1v1 on BGH, at least in the hands of two fairly skilled players or equally skilled players.
As for zerg, zerg sucks ass on BGH. It's a matter of the way economy works. Think about it this way. On a low money map, the main has maybe 8-10 mineral patches. Off of a 9 pool, the zerg can still have one drone on each patch. Even hunters has 10 mineral patches. But BGH has 15 mineral patches. This means that the protoss/terran's ability to continuously make workers throughout the entire early game of making units pays off far more than the zergs. The zerg can certainly keep up with the protoss or terran for maybe 5 minutes, but after that it's over unless the zerg has really really hurt the T or P. Protoss can easily support 4-5 gate zealots by the 5 minute mark on BGH, because they're getting far more minerals than on low money simply by virtue of the fact that their 25 probes are mining from 15 patches instead of 9 patches like on python. This advantage does not help zerg at all.
PvT on BGH is different for the same reasons I just listed. There are specific BGH BO's, like 3 gate fast goon, that are just not doable on low money, because once you get past 9 probes mining minerals, you're already taking in more money over the same period of time than you could in low money. MM gets SLAUGHTERED by goons on BGH, unless your allies buy you time to really get a huge mass of MM, and in terms of 1v1 you'd have to play a really turtling, fast siege build vs goons because the normal 5 rines FD or w/e you want to do won't work when your opponent can have 9-10 goons at the time they have 5 on low money
Positions play a huge role in BGH, as in any 3v3 or 4v4. 5 can tank 3's gas from below from his own base, you can tank most of the naturals' mineral lines from across the rivers, you can put tanks at 3 to get free shots at any units coming out of 5 or tanks at 9 nat to get free shots at anything coming from shared positions at 6/7, etc.
Protoss late game air with well microed carriers and arbiters is far stronger than even a 200/200 mass of terran 3/3 liaths. The way the map is designed is like carrier heaven; every single path is narrow, you can run away at any point on the map, well placed stasis at chokes and on chunks of units will completely rape the terran. You may not be able to fight the huge mass of 3/3 liath's straight up, but then...you're not supposed to. Micro well on BGH and carriers >>> liath due to the pathing and terrain
Absolutely correct and well put.
But once you figure this out, you should stop playing BGH (competitively) actually, since you've pointed out all the major flaws of that map. Or to put it differently: stop trying to be good at BGH, since the map is absolutely not worth it, it's a piece of shit.
A BGHer who realizes this is too good for the BGH scene anyway and should start playing low.
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CA10824 Posts
On December 04 2008 08:59 revoluti0nX wrote:
the best strategy is alt+q+q
stop.
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On December 04 2008 15:03 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 07:54 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
Protoss is not necessarily the strongest 1v1 on BGH but it is the strongest in team games on BGH. That said, Z < P 1v1 on BGH and Z <<<<<<< T 1v1 on BGH, at least in the hands of two fairly skilled players or equally skilled players.
As for zerg, zerg sucks ass on BGH. It's a matter of the way economy works. Think about it this way. On a low money map, the main has maybe 8-10 mineral patches. Off of a 9 pool, the zerg can still have one drone on each patch. Even hunters has 10 mineral patches. But BGH has 15 mineral patches. This means that the protoss/terran's ability to continuously make workers throughout the entire early game of making units pays off far more than the zergs. The zerg can certainly keep up with the protoss or terran for maybe 5 minutes, but after that it's over unless the zerg has really really hurt the T or P. Protoss can easily support 4-5 gate zealots by the 5 minute mark on BGH, because they're getting far more minerals than on low money simply by virtue of the fact that their 25 probes are mining from 15 patches instead of 9 patches like on python. This advantage does not help zerg at all.
PvT on BGH is different for the same reasons I just listed. There are specific BGH BO's, like 3 gate fast goon, that are just not doable on low money, because once you get past 9 probes mining minerals, you're already taking in more money over the same period of time than you could in low money. MM gets SLAUGHTERED by goons on BGH, unless your allies buy you time to really get a huge mass of MM, and in terms of 1v1 you'd have to play a really turtling, fast siege build vs goons because the normal 5 rines FD or w/e you want to do won't work when your opponent can have 9-10 goons at the time they have 5 on low money
Positions play a huge role in BGH, as in any 3v3 or 4v4. 5 can tank 3's gas from below from his own base, you can tank most of the naturals' mineral lines from across the rivers, you can put tanks at 3 to get free shots at any units coming out of 5 or tanks at 9 nat to get free shots at anything coming from shared positions at 6/7, etc.
Protoss late game air with well microed carriers and arbiters is far stronger than even a 200/200 mass of terran 3/3 liaths. The way the map is designed is like carrier heaven; every single path is narrow, you can run away at any point on the map, well placed stasis at chokes and on chunks of units will completely rape the terran. You may not be able to fight the huge mass of 3/3 liath's straight up, but then...you're not supposed to. Micro well on BGH and carriers >>> liath due to the pathing and terrain Absolutely correct and well put. But once you figure this out, you should stop playing BGH (competitively) actually, since you've pointed out all the major flaws of that map. Or to put it differently: stop trying to be good at BGH, since the map is absolutely not worth it, it's a piece of shit. A BGHer who realizes this is too good for the BGH scene anyway and should start playing low.
Why should that BGHer play low when he has more fun playing BGH? The main reason people play any certain map or game type is because it's more fun for them.
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EPT
