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On November 25 2008 13:11 Raz0r wrote:
I think Terran's a little imba slightly in the late game, as we have seen in our starcraft history in 2007 savior was defeated by firebathero in an outrageous comeback, because he turtled and happened to have a lot of minerals and basically switched his main while savior did everything right, well i guess savior did waste some units but he couldn't just let fbh just build up could he? So i think bcs should be toned down a bit or something.
In that particular game, FBH got 1/2 the map eventually, and savior got 1/2 the map eventually.
When a terran gets the same amount of bases as zerg, they will win.
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late game imba? like swarm and ultras?
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On November 25 2008 10:42 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 08:00 PoP wrote:
A little offtopic, but it's not that Jaedong blocked the wrong side of the factory, but he didn't leave enough room for it to come out at its usual spot. It Came out at the normal spot, he just lifted the factory the moment the vult came out and ran away. Just like nada did at blizzcon vs savior.
I always though factory units came out from the right side...(maybe its my building positioning) anyhow all i remember is the it did come out and he did lift but it wasn't trapped to begin w/
On November 25 2008 13:54 pharmer. wrote:
late game imba? like swarm and ultras?
man u don't noe half of it... those things r scary as shit.. cus u noe they r just gonna keep consuming and coming bak to own everything u have...
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Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear.
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On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear.
i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major...
u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly
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On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear. i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major... u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly
Well, I play protoss(and pretty badly too) so I can't really offer any insight myself.
But while watching the game live, I was thinking that Jaedong HAD to make some hydras while the BCs were just having a field day camping inside his base. Yet he didn't. This wasn't even some sort of surprise. He just made spore colonies instead. So I don't know what to think.
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JD suiciding his mutas for little damage screwed him over, otherwise this would've been a different outcome. The mutas he lost cost a significant amount of gas, which didn't help JD' situation either for making scourges/defilers.
If JD muta harassed the way he used to, FBH wouldn't have enough BCs to be effective with them.
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On November 25 2008 15:15 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear. i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major... u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly Well, I play protoss(and pretty badly too) so I can't really offer any insight myself. But while watching the game live, I was thinking that Jaedong HAD to make some hydras while the BCs were just having a field day camping inside his base. Yet he didn't. This wasn't even some sort of surprise. He just made spore colonies instead. So I don't know what to think.
Is ultra-ling-scourge larva-intensive? B/c if so then Jaedong might not have had the larva to make hydra, considering that FBH was constantly taking down his hatches.
Plus, Jaedong would have had to make about 3-4 hydra versus each cruiser, and to defend that all FBH would've had to do is drop 1 group of mnm to guard his cruisers.
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Sure BCs can be countered but you must make decent hydra force to kill them or a lot of scourges. Its like a diversion, it makes zerg forces split up.. Like when zerg's main force is fighting with the m&m + vessel army. The cruisers are slowly taking out drones or destroying important tech building or forces Z to put up some spores. If you focus on killing them it takes a lot of resources and your main force can be much weaker. Now im going to add this to my playstyle. Those extra mins are sometimes hard to get rid off so why not make some of them. Thanks FBH!
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On November 25 2008 05:42 Ideas wrote:
I have a feeling that I'm going to run into BCs in any ZvT i play on ICCUP for the next 2 weeks.
lol so true
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So many Jaedong and Savior fanboys.
Jaedong got completely outplayed and FBH just crushed him like a bug.
Terran is so overpwered Savior played 100% perfect and still FBH wins with camp !!!
Perfect? Far from it. In that game FBH had basically already won because he had way more resources than Savior because Savior failed totally in taking down FBH's expos. FBH just lost his main because swarm and ultra is overpowered as we all know.
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this is no FBH build, it's basically BC's in the late-game throwing jaedong off. seriously, some of these guys are so used to playing standard that they just don't know how to react to anything outside of the standard. jaedong made spore colonies of all things to counter battle cruisers... if anyone has any experience with battle cruisers, they would know that they're the least cost effective units in the game(personally i find they're only marginally useful in lategame TvT and TvP).. same amount of minerals as a command center, plus gas. it's also pretty easy to take them down as zergs. just pure hydraslisks can get the job done, especially with scourge support while the BC's are targeting the hydras. zergs can make short work of BC's even without defilers. Jaedong is just in a slump and must have had a brain infarction. JD is one of my favorite players and i really hope he breaks out of his slump, but that was a terrible game. It's not like FBH played well either, as his m&m micro was sloppy as hell, and realistically he could have ended the game with his initial group of m&m if he had bothered micro'ing those units(i'm refering to the point where he took down the single sunken at jaedong's natural).
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The thing is, jaedong would have had to get the hydralisk upgrades to deal with the BCs, and as we all know, hydras melt to mnm.
Definitely a strategy that can be countered, but jaedong showed really uncreative play there and got thrown for a loop. In an interview, firebathero talked about the viability of using these, so wasn't complete BM. Although, he did put that science facility right in his nat for jaedong to see. So basically, it was BM, but with an underrated strategy.
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Jaedong played pretty bad that game (horrible muta wasye) whereas in the same time FBH did well
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its a stategy to let Z choose a lot of options and mess up their unit composition and gameplay. Jaedong doesnt know if FBH would add more BCs or just make 1or2 of them and continue standard m&m vessel gameplay.
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On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:
i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major...
u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly
the bcs sat on the hatcheries of jd like 10 minutes right in the middle of his main, u think he wouldnt have killed them somehow if he could? Fbh was constantly pressuring him he needed those larva for lings and ultras
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On November 26 2008 00:17 Wurzelbrumpft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:
i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major...
u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly the bcs sat on the hatcheries of jd like 10 minutes right in the middle of his main, u think he wouldnt have killed them somehow if he could? Fbh was constantly pressuring him he needed those larva for lings and ultras
Clearly this isn't true, seeing as how that one bc in his main was at a few hit points for a long, long time. It was just a case of jaedong being completely tripped up mentally by the BCs.
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I'm already getting sick of all the zerg players who start complaining about the "imbalance" of BCs. I mean, seriously, BCs can be countered in a few ways, cost a hell lot of ressources and are stupidly slow. If anything, BCs need a serious buff (just like scouts do).
I'm not saying they can't be effective against zerg, but in my opinion, they are actually quite a bit too weak.
And the statement that "Terran is so imbalanced late game against Zerg" is epic wrong IMO.
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player)
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On November 25 2008 21:52 c_dog wrote:
this is no FBH build, it's basically BC's in the late-game throwing jaedong off. seriously, some of these guys are so used to playing standard that they just don't know how to react to anything outside of the standard. jaedong made spore colonies of all things to counter battle cruisers... if anyone has any experience with battle cruisers, they would know that they're the least cost effective units in the game(personally i find they're only marginally useful in lategame TvT and TvP).. same amount of minerals as a command center, plus gas. it's also pretty easy to take them down as zergs. just pure hydraslisks can get the job done, especially with scourge support while the BC's are targeting the hydras. zergs can make short work of BC's even without defilers. Jaedong is just in a slump and must have had a brain infarction. JD is one of my favorite players and i really hope he breaks out of his slump, but that was a terrible game. It's not like FBH played well either, as his m&m micro was sloppy as hell, and realistically he could have ended the game with his initial group of m&m if he had bothered micro'ing those units(i'm refering to the point where he took down the single sunken at jaedong's natural).
You're exaggerating quite a bit. While by no means are BCs cost effective, they're not a bad unit in certain situations either. They're especially not bad once you get a few of them together out and about in the field, the problem with BCs has been and always will be the ridiculous build time + the number of starports needed to pump them out in any reasonable time.
They're quite decent, even for cost, once you actually get them out.
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On November 26 2008 03:21 Final_Judicator wrote:
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player)
Science vessels and M&M are imbalanced. The only reason Zerg can win is because Defilers and Ultras are just as imbalanced.
Same in other match ups.
Zerg army is way stronger than Protoss army, but it somehow evens out with Templars and Reavers.
Terran army is way stronger than Protoss army, but Protoss has Arbiters, Carriers and Templars.
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EPT
