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So recently I saw the FBH vs Jaedong game for PL
SPOILER ALERT DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED THE LAST GAME OF LECAF VS KHAN
So...yeah I mean i personally don't think this build is or even was feasible.
So like we all know though jaedong found the proxy fact he started out a little badly because the 1 vulture that came out of it did get all of his lings that were currently out.
Which i guess was just a pure mistake on jaedong's part of blocking the wrong side of the factory and I think shortly after FBH really had an edge over jaedong but then suddenly he added physics lab to his sci facility!
At first I thought he was doing it just for shows and I still believe it was just for a "show," but it worked, didn't it?
I mean I'm sure I even heard the Korean commentator say that FBH originally screwed himself over by making BC's when he was low on vessels but they were actually the turning point of the game later on... kind of like a mess that cleaned itself up
so I guess my point is does anyone think that this is a viable strategy or do you think that it was just for show, one time thing, and a slip up on jaedong's part?
I personally think jaedong should have just pumped out more hydras/lurker when he saw the BC's
since FBH didn't have many fact and jaedong already had swarm researched he could have went hydra/lurker just to purely attack the buildings and any firebats that try to challenge the hydras (I mean it's not like FBH could use the cliffs and whatnot to harass jaedong since jaedong could swarm, just ignore, and raid FBH's bases)
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Did he have +3 air weps or something? cause those BC's 1 shot scourge if i recall correctly?
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On November 25 2008 05:07 Guss wrote:
Did he have +3 air weps or something? cause those BC's 1 shot scourge if i recall correctly?
aren't scourges' hp 25? I believe he did have 1 or 2 ups for the BC but no-up BC's do 25 dmg to both air and ground so that shouldn't matter...
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I think it was just a bm build, don't really see any reason for the BC's.
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it was pretty sick... but those bc's are pretty hard to kill... really annoying.
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I have a feeling that I'm going to run into BCs in any ZvT i play on ICCUP for the next 2 weeks.
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That game was sweet. But i think that jaedong ignored the BC's for too long. IMO that is what he looked like he was doing, just ignoring them. I agree that hydras would have done wonders. Just plaguuuuuuuuuuu the BC's then have hydras come and clean up. Even un-upgraded hydra will take out BC's easy if they have defiler support.
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plague those bc's and treat them like vessels with 1 hp
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On November 25 2008 05:07 Guss wrote:
Did he have +3 air weps or something? cause those BC's 1 shot scourge if i recall correctly?
Ohh and BC's can 1 hit scourge with no upgrades. so If the scourge doesn't have +1 carapace, bc's one hit.
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I think it was just a bm build. FBH needed some more vessels at that point but he did make it work with the bcs. Since FBH wasn't making them en-masse, and still pumping mnm + vessel, i guess it was just used to confuse jaedong a bit. Jaedong did wait too long to coutner them.
I use to go bc all the time in tvz and yes, they do kill scourge one hit.
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On November 25 2008 05:43 tKd_ wrote:
plague those bc's and treat them like vessels with 1 hp
Problem with that is that Plague doesn't bring BCs to 1 hp, it'll burn 250 hp or so and stop.
And he can go all faggy style and bring Medics to restore -________-
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 25 2008 06:05 Equinox_kr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 05:43 tKd_ wrote:
plague those bc's and treat them like vessels with 1 hp Problem with that is that Plague doesn't bring BCs to 1 hp, it'll burn 250 hp or so and stop. And he can go all faggy style and bring Medics to restore -________-
Oh BOO HOO, cry more that your area effect spell by a unit with unlimited mana that can eat away thousands of hit points and cripple an entire army without actually freeing up any supply doesn't make EVERY unit completely useless
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lol@ Bm because FBH used something like battlecruisers to school jaedong.
Get over yourselves.
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I think it was a one-time luck thing. But with a few tweaks it could be pretty promising...
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It's an elite club of Zergs who have been beaten by FBH with Battlecruisers. I wonder if he would have done it to a lesser player.
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Plague does 300 damage over time.
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How is this even a build...he just did normal M&M and made like 4 battlecruisers...I like how everyone ignores how well FBH was protecting his vessels..I think that was a big key as well. And the hydras jaedong made were pretty useless because..FBH was just irridating the Lurks and Ultras..and then stand under swarm with marines and firebats and the hydras were doing no damage and getting killed by the firebats. Now Yamato'ing the spore colonies was pretty funny.
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Hungary11300 Posts
Actually the BCs threw Jaedong off big time. His mindset (as it looked) was onto a classic ZvT lategame, where the Zerg uses Ultraling with defilers and scourge against MM + Vesselcloud. Jaedong had trouble eliminating those BCs and playing the regular style at the same time. So in my mind those BCs were a wildcard move to throw Jaedong off balance - and they suceeded at that.
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That was a sick play by FBH, the BCs did ridiculous amounts of damage because FBH was able to pressure with his medic marine army at the same time and prevent JD from taking decisive action against the BCs. I don't think this is any kind of really viable build as standard, but worked well at surprise.
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The BCs really did throw him off, you could see it, he was like O_O. Plus they took out some important tech.
It's a surprise one-time strategy though.
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On November 25 2008 05:42 Ideas wrote:
I have a feeling that I'm going to run into BCs in any ZvT i play on ICCUP for the next 2 weeks.
lol, like fantasy's build 
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The battlecruisers helped him BIG TIME, they sniped so many defilers. They weren't a surprise because he showed em to a couple of lings. and with the heavy gas zerg end game, jaedong had no gas to make scourges, if he did, he limited his # of ultras greatly. im sure u all know that FBH pulled this shit before and it has shown that BCs are awesome in late game low money situations on both sides, they do enormous damage.
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On November 25 2008 07:29 Revolutionary wrote:
The BCs really did throw him off, you could see it, he was like O_O. Plus they took out some important tech.
It's a surprise one-time strategy though.
yeah.. i think the HUH? factor was the real reason jaedong lost that one...
On November 25 2008 07:18 mog87 wrote:
How is this even a build...he just did normal M&M and made like 4 battlecruisers...I like how everyone ignores how well FBH was protecting his vessels..I think that was a big key as well. And the hydras jaedong made were pretty useless because..FBH was just irridating the Lurks and Ultras..and then stand under swarm with marines and firebats and the hydras were doing no damage and getting killed by the firebats. Now Yamato'ing the spore colonies was pretty funny.
when he started making BC's he had like i think 2 vessels left... how is that protecting them really well? the reason he only had like 4 BC at end instead of 9 - 12 was because he had to keep making vessels (and this was from 2 ports)
FBH also did not have such a complete indestructible force as u seem to imply there... jaedong hardly used hydras after BC's came out he went mostly ultra lings...
On November 25 2008 07:35 Creationism wrote:
The battlecruisers helped him BIG TIME, they sniped so many defilers. They weren't a surprise because he showed em to a couple of lings. and with the heavy gas zerg end game, jaedong had no gas to make scourges, if he did, he limited his # of ultras greatly. im sure u all know that FBH pulled this shit before and it has shown that BCs are awesome in late game low money situations on both sides, they do enormous damage.
I think a BC in a Z v T game is a surprise no matter when they come out... but if you are trying to say that jaedong should have known there would be more coming, yes and no. Because unless he could check the flashing lights on the physics lab he might have thought FBH was just screwin around w/ him trying to change the units jaedong would make.
Honestly i can't say anything but that I think jaedong just choked because he was never prepared for BC's to become incorporated into the game like that... he lost lot of his focus and lost his defilers foolishly but then that's no excuse i guess because FBH lost a lot of focus in that game IMO
though im ok w/ the guy, FBH just loses his focus a LOT and sometimes i wonder how he even manages to win against ppl like jaedong
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adding a couple of battle cruisers late game isnt a new build.
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I think it was really smart from fbh as a psychological tactic. I think jaedong's been looking to start his slump for the last week or two and when he saw that fbh was doing humiliation tactics it broke his spirit and concentration, even if he wasn't that far behind yet.
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A little offtopic, but it's not that Jaedong blocked the wrong side of the factory, but he didn't leave enough room for it to come out at its usual spot.
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It can't really be considered as the "FBH Build" seing how the only thing he did different was throwing in a battle cruiser or two instead of vessles while going SKTerran.
It can be good on certain maps because the bcs requires one hit to take down the scourges, and zerg has to switch to hydras or something in order to take them down which kinda messes up their initial game plan.
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On November 25 2008 08:05 meRz wrote:
It can't really be considered as the "FBH Build" seing how the only thing he did different was throwing in a battle cruiser or two instead of vessles while going SKTerran.
It can be good on certain maps because the bcs requires one hit to take down the scourges, and zerg has to switch to hydras or something in order to take them down which kinda messes up their initial game plan.
yeahhh but switching to hydras rn't that hard for zergs... since all of their larvae can morph to hydras in a flash anyhow
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Can you yamato cannon under dark swarm?
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it was like when somebody goes nukes it's not to use a powerful build it is simply to diss the oposing player, keep in mind this is FBH so you should expect something like that from him.
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i don't think it was a diss. it served strategic importance, especially with two 30+ kills Battlecruiser's late game as they ran out of minerals
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
i don't think this was some stupid 'diss.' do you really think any progamer would screw around in a pl ace match against jaedong? the game was still pretty close, so it seems more like a deliberate strategy.
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Calgary25981 Posts
It's very hard to make a decision to switch over to Hydralisks after you've committed to an early game of LurkerLing. That's why this worked. If it becomes popular, Zerg will find the timing to switch and easily crush this.
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BC took JD off guard and he was already in a pretty bad situation.
It's always good to do something very unexpected when you have an advantage. Your opponent is focusing on other things that punishing your eccentricity and that's where they become really efficient.
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On November 25 2008 08:42 KOFgokuon wrote:
Can you yamato cannon under dark swarm?
don't think it works
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It's always fun to see battlecruisers.
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On November 25 2008 08:00 PoP wrote:
A little offtopic, but it's not that Jaedong blocked the wrong side of the factory, but he didn't leave enough room for it to come out at its usual spot.
It Came out at the normal spot, he just lifted the factory the moment the vult came out and ran away. Just like nada did at blizzcon vs savior.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On November 25 2008 10:31 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 08:42 KOFgokuon wrote:
Can you yamato cannon under dark swarm? don't think it works
it works
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On November 25 2008 10:48 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 10:31 blabber wrote:On November 25 2008 08:42 KOFgokuon wrote:
Can you yamato cannon under dark swarm? don't think it works it works
See Nada vs Ameba on Luna
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I think Terran's a little imba slightly in the late game, as we have seen in our starcraft history in 2007 savior was defeated by firebathero in an outrageous comeback, because he turtled and happened to have a lot of minerals and basically switched his main while savior did everything right, well i guess savior did waste some units but he couldn't just let fbh just build up could he? So i think bcs should be toned down a bit or something.
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On November 25 2008 13:11 Raz0r wrote:
I think Terran's a little imba slightly in the late game, as we have seen in our starcraft history in 2007 savior was defeated by firebathero in an outrageous comeback, because he turtled and happened to have a lot of minerals and basically switched his main while savior did everything right, well i guess savior did waste some units but he couldn't just let fbh just build up could he? So i think bcs should be toned down a bit or something.
In that particular game, FBH got 1/2 the map eventually, and savior got 1/2 the map eventually.
When a terran gets the same amount of bases as zerg, they will win.
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late game imba? like swarm and ultras?
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On November 25 2008 10:42 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 08:00 PoP wrote:
A little offtopic, but it's not that Jaedong blocked the wrong side of the factory, but he didn't leave enough room for it to come out at its usual spot. It Came out at the normal spot, he just lifted the factory the moment the vult came out and ran away. Just like nada did at blizzcon vs savior.
I always though factory units came out from the right side...(maybe its my building positioning) anyhow all i remember is the it did come out and he did lift but it wasn't trapped to begin w/
On November 25 2008 13:54 pharmer. wrote:
late game imba? like swarm and ultras?
man u don't noe half of it... those things r scary as shit.. cus u noe they r just gonna keep consuming and coming bak to own everything u have...
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Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear.
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On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear.
i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major...
u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly
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On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear. i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major... u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly
Well, I play protoss(and pretty badly too) so I can't really offer any insight myself.
But while watching the game live, I was thinking that Jaedong HAD to make some hydras while the BCs were just having a field day camping inside his base. Yet he didn't. This wasn't even some sort of surprise. He just made spore colonies instead. So I don't know what to think.
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JD suiciding his mutas for little damage screwed him over, otherwise this would've been a different outcome. The mutas he lost cost a significant amount of gas, which didn't help JD' situation either for making scourges/defilers.
If JD muta harassed the way he used to, FBH wouldn't have enough BCs to be effective with them.
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On November 25 2008 15:15 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear. i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major... u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly Well, I play protoss(and pretty badly too) so I can't really offer any insight myself. But while watching the game live, I was thinking that Jaedong HAD to make some hydras while the BCs were just having a field day camping inside his base. Yet he didn't. This wasn't even some sort of surprise. He just made spore colonies instead. So I don't know what to think.
Is ultra-ling-scourge larva-intensive? B/c if so then Jaedong might not have had the larva to make hydra, considering that FBH was constantly taking down his hatches.
Plus, Jaedong would have had to make about 3-4 hydra versus each cruiser, and to defend that all FBH would've had to do is drop 1 group of mnm to guard his cruisers.
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Sure BCs can be countered but you must make decent hydra force to kill them or a lot of scourges. Its like a diversion, it makes zerg forces split up.. Like when zerg's main force is fighting with the m&m + vessel army. The cruisers are slowly taking out drones or destroying important tech building or forces Z to put up some spores. If you focus on killing them it takes a lot of resources and your main force can be much weaker. Now im going to add this to my playstyle. Those extra mins are sometimes hard to get rid off so why not make some of them. Thanks FBH!
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On November 25 2008 05:42 Ideas wrote:
I have a feeling that I'm going to run into BCs in any ZvT i play on ICCUP for the next 2 weeks.
lol so true
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So many Jaedong and Savior fanboys.
Jaedong got completely outplayed and FBH just crushed him like a bug.
Terran is so overpwered Savior played 100% perfect and still FBH wins with camp !!!
Perfect? Far from it. In that game FBH had basically already won because he had way more resources than Savior because Savior failed totally in taking down FBH's expos. FBH just lost his main because swarm and ultra is overpowered as we all know.
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this is no FBH build, it's basically BC's in the late-game throwing jaedong off. seriously, some of these guys are so used to playing standard that they just don't know how to react to anything outside of the standard. jaedong made spore colonies of all things to counter battle cruisers... if anyone has any experience with battle cruisers, they would know that they're the least cost effective units in the game(personally i find they're only marginally useful in lategame TvT and TvP).. same amount of minerals as a command center, plus gas. it's also pretty easy to take them down as zergs. just pure hydraslisks can get the job done, especially with scourge support while the BC's are targeting the hydras. zergs can make short work of BC's even without defilers. Jaedong is just in a slump and must have had a brain infarction. JD is one of my favorite players and i really hope he breaks out of his slump, but that was a terrible game. It's not like FBH played well either, as his m&m micro was sloppy as hell, and realistically he could have ended the game with his initial group of m&m if he had bothered micro'ing those units(i'm refering to the point where he took down the single sunken at jaedong's natural).
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The thing is, jaedong would have had to get the hydralisk upgrades to deal with the BCs, and as we all know, hydras melt to mnm.
Definitely a strategy that can be countered, but jaedong showed really uncreative play there and got thrown for a loop. In an interview, firebathero talked about the viability of using these, so wasn't complete BM. Although, he did put that science facility right in his nat for jaedong to see. So basically, it was BM, but with an underrated strategy.
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Jaedong played pretty bad that game (horrible muta wasye) whereas in the same time FBH did well
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its a stategy to let Z choose a lot of options and mess up their unit composition and gameplay. Jaedong doesnt know if FBH would add more BCs or just make 1or2 of them and continue standard m&m vessel gameplay.
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On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:
i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major...
u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly
the bcs sat on the hatcheries of jd like 10 minutes right in the middle of his main, u think he wouldnt have killed them somehow if he could? Fbh was constantly pressuring him he needed those larva for lings and ultras
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On November 26 2008 00:17 Wurzelbrumpft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:
i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major...
u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly the bcs sat on the hatcheries of jd like 10 minutes right in the middle of his main, u think he wouldnt have killed them somehow if he could? Fbh was constantly pressuring him he needed those larva for lings and ultras
Clearly this isn't true, seeing as how that one bc in his main was at a few hit points for a long, long time. It was just a case of jaedong being completely tripped up mentally by the BCs.
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I'm already getting sick of all the zerg players who start complaining about the "imbalance" of BCs. I mean, seriously, BCs can be countered in a few ways, cost a hell lot of ressources and are stupidly slow. If anything, BCs need a serious buff (just like scouts do).
I'm not saying they can't be effective against zerg, but in my opinion, they are actually quite a bit too weak.
And the statement that "Terran is so imbalanced late game against Zerg" is epic wrong IMO.
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player)
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On November 25 2008 21:52 c_dog wrote:
this is no FBH build, it's basically BC's in the late-game throwing jaedong off. seriously, some of these guys are so used to playing standard that they just don't know how to react to anything outside of the standard. jaedong made spore colonies of all things to counter battle cruisers... if anyone has any experience with battle cruisers, they would know that they're the least cost effective units in the game(personally i find they're only marginally useful in lategame TvT and TvP).. same amount of minerals as a command center, plus gas. it's also pretty easy to take them down as zergs. just pure hydraslisks can get the job done, especially with scourge support while the BC's are targeting the hydras. zergs can make short work of BC's even without defilers. Jaedong is just in a slump and must have had a brain infarction. JD is one of my favorite players and i really hope he breaks out of his slump, but that was a terrible game. It's not like FBH played well either, as his m&m micro was sloppy as hell, and realistically he could have ended the game with his initial group of m&m if he had bothered micro'ing those units(i'm refering to the point where he took down the single sunken at jaedong's natural).
You're exaggerating quite a bit. While by no means are BCs cost effective, they're not a bad unit in certain situations either. They're especially not bad once you get a few of them together out and about in the field, the problem with BCs has been and always will be the ridiculous build time + the number of starports needed to pump them out in any reasonable time.
They're quite decent, even for cost, once you actually get them out.
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On November 26 2008 03:21 Final_Judicator wrote:
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player)
Science vessels and M&M are imbalanced. The only reason Zerg can win is because Defilers and Ultras are just as imbalanced.
Same in other match ups.
Zerg army is way stronger than Protoss army, but it somehow evens out with Templars and Reavers.
Terran army is way stronger than Protoss army, but Protoss has Arbiters, Carriers and Templars.
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On November 25 2008 15:54 t_co wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 15:15 baubo wrote:On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear. i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major... u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly Well, I play protoss(and pretty badly too) so I can't really offer any insight myself. But while watching the game live, I was thinking that Jaedong HAD to make some hydras while the BCs were just having a field day camping inside his base. Yet he didn't. This wasn't even some sort of surprise. He just made spore colonies instead. So I don't know what to think. Is ultra-ling-scourge larva-intensive? B/c if so then Jaedong might not have had the larva to make hydra, considering that FBH was constantly taking down his hatches. Plus, Jaedong would have had to make about 3-4 hydra versus each cruiser, and to defend that all FBH would've had to do is drop 1 group of mnm to guard his cruisers.
ok i don't know what game u guys were watching but did u even see just how many larvae he had screwing around when he first saw FBH's bc?
he had 2 in each hatch... jaedong's not stupid he was clearly thinking of how to counter the bc and he just slipped up... aka chose the wrong counter
On November 25 2008 19:59 Stimpacked wrote:
Sure BCs can be countered but you must make decent hydra force to kill them or a lot of scourges. Its like a diversion, it makes zerg forces split up.. Like when zerg's main force is fighting with the m&m + vessel army. The cruisers are slowly taking out drones or destroying important tech building or forces Z to put up some spores. If you focus on killing them it takes a lot of resources and your main force can be much weaker. Now im going to add this to my playstyle. Those extra mins are sometimes hard to get rid off so why not make some of them. Thanks FBH!
u gotta be kidding rite? and making 7 flying command centers has ABSOLUTELY no effect on the terran... yeah ok w.e u wanna believe
btw hydras under swarm can't get hit by marines...(they should be under swarm cus otherwise BC alone will just own em anyhow) jaedong could have played it like FBH and atcked only the buildings...
On November 25 2008 21:35 Zoler wrote:So many Jaedong and Savior fanboys. Jaedong got completely outplayed and FBH just crushed him like a bug.
it WAS cus jaedong was baffled that he didn't play well...
im not jaedong fan nor am i a FBH fan but jaedong could have done better and IMO FBH had every right to win the game after jaedong slipped up w/ his mutas (BC or no BC)
i'm just saying pulling out BC's just compounded the problem
On November 25 2008 22:05 simon311A wrote:
The thing is, jaedong would have had to get the hydralisk upgrades to deal with the BCs, and as we all know, hydras melt to mnm.
Definitely a strategy that can be countered, but jaedong showed really uncreative play there and got thrown for a loop. In an interview, firebathero talked about the viability of using these, so wasn't complete BM. Although, he did put that science facility right in his nat for jaedong to see. So basically, it was BM, but with an underrated strategy.
i totally agree... i believe that jaedong was trying to look for a timing atck and just wanted to overrun FBH w/ his ultras and lings but it failed the moment he lost that nydus...
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United States3824 Posts
Watching the game now. It doesn't really seem like Jaedong is reacting to the Battlecruisers. More like he's avoiding them, which isn't really a good plan in the long run. So if you were able to lock your opponent into not building hydralisks to counter then it would work, though I suppose it is that way with any air unit.
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On November 26 2008 04:07 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 03:21 Final_Judicator wrote:
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player) Science vessels and M&M are imbalanced. The only reason Zerg can win is because Defilers and Ultras are just as imbalanced.
I don't wanna be rude or offensive, but that's a freakin retarded reasonement
Imba vs Imba = Balanced.
Ultras are balanced cuz they get crushed by Vessel. Vessel are balanced cuz they are very hard to keep alive vs scourge. etc etc etc, and the best player wins.
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shit was awesome
ultras arent killed by vessels
their hp is just brought down to a level that m&m can actually deal with
and defiler has plague, vessels have irradiate etc
game is pretty balanced within reasonable limits
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yes can ppl plzz stop saying ZREG is imba or TERRAN is imba?
if they all were so f-ing imba how the hell do the pros win?
exactly... it's rock paper scissor initially then skill later on to win... zerg AREN'T imba and neither are terrans... same goes for protoss... (just putting it in there so toss ppl don't get lonely, kekeke)
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If jaedong had any framiliarity with the situation he would've easily crushed it. But because he's clearly practiced against it so rarely (if ever at all) it made him think a lot; which slowed down, confused, and really weakened his play in general.
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build like 30 scourges, keep them in the back, wait for bc's to stray away from the pack [happend often] and they all go bye bye, including some vessels. Not really a problem what so ever...Jaedong was just a dumbass.
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United States1655 Posts
On November 26 2008 10:37 Dazed_Spy wrote:
build like 30 scourges, keep them in the back, wait for bc's to stray away from the pack [happend often] and they all go bye bye, including some vessels. Not really a problem what so ever...Jaedong was just a dumbass.
Are you serious? You really think a Zerg player at the pro level will just leisurely save around 1000 gas in the bank for that sole purpose, especially in the situation that Jaedong was in? Gas was constantly being spent on Defilers and Ultralisks, with only some gas to spare for Vessels- make that many Scourge and you won't have enough gas ground units to defeat the Terran ball dumbass.
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On November 26 2008 12:03 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 10:37 Dazed_Spy wrote:
build like 30 scourges, keep them in the back, wait for bc's to stray away from the pack [happend often] and they all go bye bye, including some vessels. Not really a problem what so ever...Jaedong was just a dumbass. Are you serious? You really think a Zerg player at the pro level will just leisurely save around 1000 gas in the bank for that sole purpose, especially in the situation that Jaedong was in? Gas was constantly being spent on Defilers and Ultralisks, with only some gas to spare for Vessels- make that many Scourge and you won't have enough gas ground units to defeat the Terran ball dumbass.
yeah... i don't think that many scourge is a wise idea...esp if BC's gather up they own any amount of scourge
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On November 26 2008 03:21 Final_Judicator wrote:
I'm already getting sick of all the zerg players who start complaining about the "imbalance" of BCs. I mean, seriously, BCs can be countered in a few ways, cost a hell lot of ressources and are stupidly slow. If anything, BCs need a serious buff (just like scouts do).
I'm not saying they can't be effective against zerg, but in my opinion, they are actually quite a bit too weak.
And the statement that "Terran is so imbalanced late game against Zerg" is epic wrong IMO.
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player)
T>Z on the majority of maps. Are you really so ignorant that you don't know this?
Ultralisks and defilers are powerful units but if you ever played zerg yourself you'd realise it's not that easy to get to the stage of being able to make a lot of them because M&M balls and vessels are so difficult to kill.
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TvZ is not imba for terran today. It is slightly biased, but not enough to make a difference.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
God I'm tired of people whining about imba for Terran and Zerg and shit. There's tons of factors that play into this including maps and such, please stop crying. -_-;
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enough imba imba and let's analyze,
hhhmm.. did you guys see the firebat on 5 o clock? it raped about 5 to 6 drones that's why Jaedong didn't have enough economy to seal the deal... or Am I just imagining things..
Maybe that's why he did turn to bc's because he understand that JD was behind economically.
(therefore, a timing attack)
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On November 26 2008 15:42 Licmyobelisk wrote:
enough imba imba and let's analyze,
hhhmm.. did you guys see the firebat on 5 o clock? it raped about 5 to 6 drones that's why Jaedong didn't have enough economy to seal the deal... or Am I just imagining things..
Maybe that's why he did turn to bc's because he understand that JD was behind economically.
(therefore, a timing attack)
i noe for a fact that FBH had a clear cut advantage (like unless he just right click moved all his units to jaedong's base he was gonna win)
so im pretty sure FBH went BC's kind of for fun and also to try it out...
it definitely wasn't originally any kind of BC build (not enough bases for that)
i also think FBH had money left over cus he did'nt have enough rax.. which might be y he did that
also jaedong's game was pretty flawed all through out... he lost focus everywhere
and i don't understand y u would turn to BC's fora timing atck? if anything they come out so friggin slow that u may lose ur timing (if anything it should avhe given JD more chance to catch up)
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On November 26 2008 16:08 R3condite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 15:42 Licmyobelisk wrote:
enough imba imba and let's analyze,
hhhmm.. did you guys see the firebat on 5 o clock? it raped about 5 to 6 drones that's why Jaedong didn't have enough economy to seal the deal... or Am I just imagining things..
Maybe that's why he did turn to bc's because he understand that JD was behind economically.
(therefore, a timing attack) i noe for a fact that FBH had a clear cut advantage (like unless he just right click moved all his units to jaedong's base he was gonna win) so im pretty sure FBH went BC's kind of for fun and also to try it out... it definitely wasn't originally any kind of BC build (not enough bases for that) i also think FBH had money left over cus he did'nt have enough rax.. which might be y he did that also jaedong's game was pretty flawed all through out... he lost focus everywhere and i don't understand y u would turn to BC's fora timing atck? if anything they come out so friggin slow that u may lose ur timing (if anything it should avhe given JD more chance to catch up)
Possible that FBH did prepare to create BC if the game dragged for a long time.. So the timing part there is that as much as possible FBH denied jaedong's economy by means of containing him on his base.
I don't know about Jaedong but he does have issues that if his opponents has enough units to fight back he seems to crack down.. Don't you think?
Like against Freetty, Freetty has so many Reavers/Archons that he didn't even try to fight back. (just kept running away) 
I'm a Jaedong fan, But I'm really impressed with the FBH's BCs because I don't see any of these units back in the day.
So it will forever be a mystery if FBH did that to psych-war JD or he did that just for the heck of it.
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this is NOT the fucking FBH zvt its just some bcs thrown in because he was ahead one expo..
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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It's kind of like when in TvP the protoss will make only like 5 carriers and keep a large ground army so that the T can't focus on just gols or just tanks/vults.
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BCs are actually really awesome if you think about it, there is no "Counter" if you protect them right! Scourge? Yeah a shitload of them in tandem with ovies, defilers? If he is going BC he obviously has restore and progamers obviously have the micro to restore before any real damage is done, so really its a genius build, besides, when its like 4 base terran vs 6 base zerg there is no reason not to do that, plus BCs are just gosu as shit!
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Are you still stuck in D+ using 2gate builds in every PvZ game?
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How can people take that seriously, lol come on. It's not even a build, he just did it in the moment b/c he was ahead. That's like people taking the Much heart seriously (saying that it will slow down the terran push), or jaedong's revenge on FBH as a later game strat (to sunken up his natural of course).
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On February 23 2009 09:55 arb wrote:
uber bump.
what he said....
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On February 23 2009 10:10 HatchetWound wrote:what he said....
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EPT
