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On November 25 2008 15:54 t_co wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2008 15:15 baubo wrote:On November 25 2008 14:52 R3condite wrote:On November 25 2008 14:37 baubo wrote:
Well, according to FBH himself, BCs aren't easy to counter late game. He actually feels that the problem with BCs is the timing window zerg has while BCs are building, more than anything else. So the problem is actually "getting to BCs" rather than them being ineffective. The fact that BCs one-hit kill scourges and has ridiculous amount of armor to absorb muta-hits does make them more viable than it would initially appear. i disagree.... bc's are awfully slow and so late game its' actually bad because w/ zerg there will be constant hot spots that need to be put out. Also like i said earlier hydra timing along w/ defilers would totally own the bc's... like major... u noe those things r like frggin flying command centers rite? jeez it's like 400 min and 350 gas or so if i remember correctly Well, I play protoss(and pretty badly too) so I can't really offer any insight myself. But while watching the game live, I was thinking that Jaedong HAD to make some hydras while the BCs were just having a field day camping inside his base. Yet he didn't. This wasn't even some sort of surprise. He just made spore colonies instead. So I don't know what to think. Is ultra-ling-scourge larva-intensive? B/c if so then Jaedong might not have had the larva to make hydra, considering that FBH was constantly taking down his hatches. Plus, Jaedong would have had to make about 3-4 hydra versus each cruiser, and to defend that all FBH would've had to do is drop 1 group of mnm to guard his cruisers.
ok i don't know what game u guys were watching but did u even see just how many larvae he had screwing around when he first saw FBH's bc?
he had 2 in each hatch... jaedong's not stupid he was clearly thinking of how to counter the bc and he just slipped up... aka chose the wrong counter
On November 25 2008 19:59 Stimpacked wrote:
Sure BCs can be countered but you must make decent hydra force to kill them or a lot of scourges. Its like a diversion, it makes zerg forces split up.. Like when zerg's main force is fighting with the m&m + vessel army. The cruisers are slowly taking out drones or destroying important tech building or forces Z to put up some spores. If you focus on killing them it takes a lot of resources and your main force can be much weaker. Now im going to add this to my playstyle. Those extra mins are sometimes hard to get rid off so why not make some of them. Thanks FBH!
u gotta be kidding rite? and making 7 flying command centers has ABSOLUTELY no effect on the terran... yeah ok w.e u wanna believe
btw hydras under swarm can't get hit by marines...(they should be under swarm cus otherwise BC alone will just own em anyhow) jaedong could have played it like FBH and atcked only the buildings...
On November 25 2008 21:35 Zoler wrote:So many Jaedong and Savior fanboys. Jaedong got completely outplayed and FBH just crushed him like a bug.
it WAS cus jaedong was baffled that he didn't play well...
im not jaedong fan nor am i a FBH fan but jaedong could have done better and IMO FBH had every right to win the game after jaedong slipped up w/ his mutas (BC or no BC)
i'm just saying pulling out BC's just compounded the problem
On November 25 2008 22:05 simon311A wrote:
The thing is, jaedong would have had to get the hydralisk upgrades to deal with the BCs, and as we all know, hydras melt to mnm.
Definitely a strategy that can be countered, but jaedong showed really uncreative play there and got thrown for a loop. In an interview, firebathero talked about the viability of using these, so wasn't complete BM. Although, he did put that science facility right in his nat for jaedong to see. So basically, it was BM, but with an underrated strategy.
i totally agree... i believe that jaedong was trying to look for a timing atck and just wanted to overrun FBH w/ his ultras and lings but it failed the moment he lost that nydus...
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United States3824 Posts
Watching the game now. It doesn't really seem like Jaedong is reacting to the Battlecruisers. More like he's avoiding them, which isn't really a good plan in the long run. So if you were able to lock your opponent into not building hydralisks to counter then it would work, though I suppose it is that way with any air unit.
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On November 26 2008 04:07 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 03:21 Final_Judicator wrote:
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player) Science vessels and M&M are imbalanced. The only reason Zerg can win is because Defilers and Ultras are just as imbalanced.
I don't wanna be rude or offensive, but that's a freakin retarded reasonement
Imba vs Imba = Balanced.
Ultras are balanced cuz they get crushed by Vessel. Vessel are balanced cuz they are very hard to keep alive vs scourge. etc etc etc, and the best player wins.
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shit was awesome
ultras arent killed by vessels
their hp is just brought down to a level that m&m can actually deal with
and defiler has plague, vessels have irradiate etc
game is pretty balanced within reasonable limits
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yes can ppl plzz stop saying ZREG is imba or TERRAN is imba?
if they all were so f-ing imba how the hell do the pros win?
exactly... it's rock paper scissor initially then skill later on to win... zerg AREN'T imba and neither are terrans... same goes for protoss... (just putting it in there so toss ppl don't get lonely, kekeke)
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If jaedong had any framiliarity with the situation he would've easily crushed it. But because he's clearly practiced against it so rarely (if ever at all) it made him think a lot; which slowed down, confused, and really weakened his play in general.
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build like 30 scourges, keep them in the back, wait for bc's to stray away from the pack [happend often] and they all go bye bye, including some vessels. Not really a problem what so ever...Jaedong was just a dumbass.
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United States1655 Posts
On November 26 2008 10:37 Dazed_Spy wrote:
build like 30 scourges, keep them in the back, wait for bc's to stray away from the pack [happend often] and they all go bye bye, including some vessels. Not really a problem what so ever...Jaedong was just a dumbass.
Are you serious? You really think a Zerg player at the pro level will just leisurely save around 1000 gas in the bank for that sole purpose, especially in the situation that Jaedong was in? Gas was constantly being spent on Defilers and Ultralisks, with only some gas to spare for Vessels- make that many Scourge and you won't have enough gas ground units to defeat the Terran ball dumbass.
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On November 26 2008 12:03 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 10:37 Dazed_Spy wrote:
build like 30 scourges, keep them in the back, wait for bc's to stray away from the pack [happend often] and they all go bye bye, including some vessels. Not really a problem what so ever...Jaedong was just a dumbass. Are you serious? You really think a Zerg player at the pro level will just leisurely save around 1000 gas in the bank for that sole purpose, especially in the situation that Jaedong was in? Gas was constantly being spent on Defilers and Ultralisks, with only some gas to spare for Vessels- make that many Scourge and you won't have enough gas ground units to defeat the Terran ball dumbass.
yeah... i don't think that many scourge is a wise idea...esp if BC's gather up they own any amount of scourge
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On November 26 2008 03:21 Final_Judicator wrote:
I'm already getting sick of all the zerg players who start complaining about the "imbalance" of BCs. I mean, seriously, BCs can be countered in a few ways, cost a hell lot of ressources and are stupidly slow. If anything, BCs need a serious buff (just like scouts do).
I'm not saying they can't be effective against zerg, but in my opinion, they are actually quite a bit too weak.
And the statement that "Terran is so imbalanced late game against Zerg" is epic wrong IMO.
Terrans effectively do not have a counter to a) Ultralisks and b) Dark Swarm, let alone c) Plague. Pretty much sucks, eh?
(Note the fact that I am actually a P main player)
T>Z on the majority of maps. Are you really so ignorant that you don't know this?
Ultralisks and defilers are powerful units but if you ever played zerg yourself you'd realise it's not that easy to get to the stage of being able to make a lot of them because M&M balls and vessels are so difficult to kill.
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TvZ is not imba for terran today. It is slightly biased, but not enough to make a difference.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
God I'm tired of people whining about imba for Terran and Zerg and shit. There's tons of factors that play into this including maps and such, please stop crying. -_-;
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enough imba imba and let's analyze,
hhhmm.. did you guys see the firebat on 5 o clock? it raped about 5 to 6 drones that's why Jaedong didn't have enough economy to seal the deal... or Am I just imagining things..
Maybe that's why he did turn to bc's because he understand that JD was behind economically.
(therefore, a timing attack)
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On November 26 2008 15:42 Licmyobelisk wrote:
enough imba imba and let's analyze,
hhhmm.. did you guys see the firebat on 5 o clock? it raped about 5 to 6 drones that's why Jaedong didn't have enough economy to seal the deal... or Am I just imagining things..
Maybe that's why he did turn to bc's because he understand that JD was behind economically.
(therefore, a timing attack)
i noe for a fact that FBH had a clear cut advantage (like unless he just right click moved all his units to jaedong's base he was gonna win)
so im pretty sure FBH went BC's kind of for fun and also to try it out...
it definitely wasn't originally any kind of BC build (not enough bases for that)
i also think FBH had money left over cus he did'nt have enough rax.. which might be y he did that
also jaedong's game was pretty flawed all through out... he lost focus everywhere
and i don't understand y u would turn to BC's fora timing atck? if anything they come out so friggin slow that u may lose ur timing (if anything it should avhe given JD more chance to catch up)
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On November 26 2008 16:08 R3condite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2008 15:42 Licmyobelisk wrote:
enough imba imba and let's analyze,
hhhmm.. did you guys see the firebat on 5 o clock? it raped about 5 to 6 drones that's why Jaedong didn't have enough economy to seal the deal... or Am I just imagining things..
Maybe that's why he did turn to bc's because he understand that JD was behind economically.
(therefore, a timing attack) i noe for a fact that FBH had a clear cut advantage (like unless he just right click moved all his units to jaedong's base he was gonna win) so im pretty sure FBH went BC's kind of for fun and also to try it out... it definitely wasn't originally any kind of BC build (not enough bases for that) i also think FBH had money left over cus he did'nt have enough rax.. which might be y he did that also jaedong's game was pretty flawed all through out... he lost focus everywhere and i don't understand y u would turn to BC's fora timing atck? if anything they come out so friggin slow that u may lose ur timing (if anything it should avhe given JD more chance to catch up)
Possible that FBH did prepare to create BC if the game dragged for a long time.. So the timing part there is that as much as possible FBH denied jaedong's economy by means of containing him on his base.
I don't know about Jaedong but he does have issues that if his opponents has enough units to fight back he seems to crack down.. Don't you think?
Like against Freetty, Freetty has so many Reavers/Archons that he didn't even try to fight back. (just kept running away) 
I'm a Jaedong fan, But I'm really impressed with the FBH's BCs because I don't see any of these units back in the day.
So it will forever be a mystery if FBH did that to psych-war JD or he did that just for the heck of it.
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this is NOT the fucking FBH zvt its just some bcs thrown in because he was ahead one expo..
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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It's kind of like when in TvP the protoss will make only like 5 carriers and keep a large ground army so that the T can't focus on just gols or just tanks/vults.
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BCs are actually really awesome if you think about it, there is no "Counter" if you protect them right! Scourge? Yeah a shitload of them in tandem with ovies, defilers? If he is going BC he obviously has restore and progamers obviously have the micro to restore before any real damage is done, so really its a genius build, besides, when its like 4 base terran vs 6 base zerg there is no reason not to do that, plus BCs are just gosu as shit!
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EPT
