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Well I cant say I read every response in this thread since each one appears to be a wall of text, so sorry if this is a repeat of something a post I didnt read said.
I think that the general idea of having high game knowledge is what holds back most commentators, and it should. In StarCraft you could watch two different games on teh same map and somebody without knowledge of whats going on inside of a players head, and on the field as well, wouldnt even be able to tell teh difference. Obvioulsy everyone on TL could, but my point is that even the biggest dumbass in the world could watch 2 different basketballs games and tell the difference between each game. StarCraft is a bunch of weird looking aliend being controlled by some crazy Korean kid, Basketball is a time old sport which involves alot of human drama which make sit much easier for the caster to get into the game, and in doing so makes his commentary much more enjoyable.
With StarCraft I think that you have to find such a very careful balance to maintain interest and strategical insight on the same level. While Cholera, Diggity, Moletrapp, and Klazart all have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics of the game and the basic strategies, I do not think that they have the necessary experience it takes to become a caster on the level that Tasteless or Artosis are. Without being in at least some sort of competitive tournament how can you possible understand what is going through the heads of each Pro Gamer? It is practically impossible even for Tasteless and Artosis, or anyone for that matter, but if you have no professional/amateur SC experience you might as well be in a dark closet by yourself.
That is what seperates professionals from amateurs imo, not knowing the strategies or the maps, because anyone can do that, but giving insight as to what the gamer may be thinking. I know it sounds as if I am just repeating myself, but seriously when I listen to a Cholera or Diggity commentary I feel like they are just telling me what is going on in my head. For a noob that is really nice and helpful, but I want to hear about something I do not know which is the mental facet of the game, how a player would think about some scenario or another compared to mine. What you guys are doing is telling me what a B rank iccup player would do at this point in time, counters, strategies, expo, or what have you, but I hate to tell you most of the BW fans already know these BOs and how to counter them.
I think your guys commentary is fun and really enjoyable to listen to some times, but honestly it just doesn't serve a purpose in a tight knit community of veterans like this one. Even though most of us are D players and so on, most of us have been playing this game for years and even if you suck ass still you know what the good players are trying to do mechanically.
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On September 30 2008 10:18 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:
Hmmm I dont know where most of you are getting your Tasteless commentary from but I think he is very well strategically versed. I mean of course it is not all he concentrates on since he has to do all if by himself, but he understands the basic BO and flow of every matchup for every race. I see what your saying here, but I myself find "over analyzing" is often worse than not knowing everything about everything.
To the OP: I would try and do one if I were you, post it here and see what everyone thinks. From what you have posted it doesnt sound like your bag, but it can never hurt right?
Haven't watched him in a while, but I remember laughing when he said something like "OMG! Flash [I think] is sending all his SCVS!" Oh wait, my bad, he's just transferring..."
Which brings up the question-does Tasteless just have his own observer screen, or does he have four? (1 for each player, 1 to obs yourself, 1 to see what main obs is doing)
Thanks
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On October 02 2008 23:14 CholeraSC wrote:Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it: + Show Spoiler +Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle): + Show Spoiler +My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse. Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC.
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On October 03 2008 06:52 ItchReliever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 23:14 CholeraSC wrote:Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bPv8JI6zY Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle): + Show Spoiler +My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse. Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC.
It may have been a bit rash to compare yourself to the top tier of commentators  (
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Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck.
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Well the answer to that is time. I guess fpvods are the best to see how to make fast useful actions. They're basically doing everything you're doing, only more times in a second, and other things. Repeatedly doing something has its uses such as cycling units and buildings to see if stuff is done/getting damaged. If you can't conceptually grasp high apm then it just takes time and watching fpvods
Intrigue made a good point though, it takes a WHILE to get a good understanding of the game just because there's so much to learn. There's almost levels to everything as you go up. There's always more to understand, so I hope you're ready to invest some time
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
No one is saying you have to have high APM to commentate well. You need a rich understanding of the starcraft metagame. Hotbid is a good example of this - he doesn't play that fast and he's not an amazing player but he understands the game so well and has a good understanding of what the players are doing and what they are going to do. That is the key.
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On October 03 2008 09:05 Kennigit wrote:
No one is saying you have to have high APM to commentate well. You need a rich understanding of the starcraft metagame. Hotbid is a good example of this - he doesn't play that fast and he's not an amazing player but he understands the game so well and has a good understanding of what the players are doing and what they are going to do. That is the key.
I didn't say it was. I just think the only thing holding me back from being a better player is my lack of speed. I have an understanding of terran that is easily more profound than the average D player. The problem is execution. I'm slow and forgetful, which leads to poor macro and huge mistakes (I just played a game yesterday where I successfully fended off some tanks ledging my natural but forgot to stick my SCVs back on mining).
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
practice and repetition is the only way you are going to get faster and better.
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Calgary25977 Posts
I think there's a mental aspect of committing to getting faster of well!
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On October 03 2008 09:16 Kennigit wrote:
practice and repetition is the only way you are going to get faster and better.
Has to be the right kind of practice. :p
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United States42486 Posts
On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck.
My apm never really got much higher than 135 either and I always felt that my metagame was far stronger than my mechanics. And while I could spam faster or could micro at a higher speed I also never really saw where to spend the excess apm. I lacked the muscle memory to do the continual macro and moving around that better players do. That just takes practice. You need to play a lot of games and get into the habit of moving through your control groups and constantly tabbing back to your production facilities to keep them running.
That said, I think it's easily possible to reach B- without strong mechanics or high apm simply because players up to that level play exploitably and you can execute them easily enough. While icc rank isn't an absolute guide to understanding of metagame because some players understand far more than they can execute I think that it's difficult to credibly argue that you have good metagame while being a D rank. If you understand why a build is good then you can look at whatever build your opponent at D rank does and see how to beat it. Then you just beat it with the counterbuild. At D they don't understand why their build is weak or why the build you're now doing is strong against it because they're just copying what they saw in a replay without any real understanding of context.
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On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck.
If you haven't had time to get above a D rank, you definitely have not had enough time to study the game enough to be a top-level commentator. The game and strategies and builds evolve and adapt every season and within seasons, and a good commentator will not only be able to identify, understand and execute these changes in the game, but also know how individual gamers' styles and builds fit in and match up against others. A constant commitment to not only playing, but following the entire scene is important, and shows when you cast. This is something the Korean casters still clearly have above even tasteless and Artosis, and in turn they have above most other casters. In my opinion, being a great caster takes even more commitment than being a B level player. If you can only devote the time to become D, even if your understanding goes well beyond that, you're not committed enough throughout the year to understand the evolution and changes in the game.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 03 2008 09:51 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck. My apm never really got much higher than 135 either and I always felt that my metagame was far stronger than my mechanics. And while I could spam faster or could micro at a higher speed I also never really saw where to spend the excess apm. I lacked the muscle memory to do the continual macro and moving around that better players do. That just takes practice. You need to play a lot of games and get into the habit of moving through your control groups and constantly tabbing back to your production facilities to keep them running. That said, I think it's easily possible to reach B- without strong mechanics or high apm simply because players up to that level play exploitably and you can execute them easily enough. While icc rank isn't an absolute guide to understanding of metagame because some players understand far more than they can execute I think that it's difficult to credibly argue that you have good metagame while being a D rank. If you understand why a build is good then you can look at whatever build your opponent at D rank does and see how to beat it. Then you just beat it with the counterbuild. At D they don't understand why their build is weak or why the build you're now doing is strong against it because they're just copying what they saw in a replay without any real understanding of context.
The fuck? You got to B at 135 APM? WTF.
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Calgary25977 Posts
LOL why didnt I see that coming? Fuck hahaha
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On October 03 2008 07:57 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 06:52 ItchReliever wrote:On October 02 2008 23:14 CholeraSC wrote:Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bPv8JI6zY Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle): + Show Spoiler +My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse. Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC. It may have been a bit rash to compare yourself to the top tier of commentators (
Especially since you decide to pick a short ass game where most of the talking is commentating on the shocking, ridiculous play by July. You really can't expect that much strategic depth when July goes for some cheesy (albeit amazing) play.
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On October 03 2008 10:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 09:51 Kwark wrote:On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
The fuck? You got to B at 135 APM? WTF.
=( ive only been able to get to c with 170 apm zug zug
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On September 30 2008 08:02 SonuvBob wrote:
GG.net can't satisfy you like Chill TL can!
You satisfy me SonuvBob
LOL, DON'T EVEN START
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EPT
