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Whoa there. Some nobody wants to commentate for Starcraft? You must be the 3,000th person to want to do this.
Before I even ask, I know such a statement merits a lecture on all sorts of things from knowing the game inside and out, the competition that this field has, and, well, the fact that I truly don't have any sort of a name for myself whatsoever.
The fact is, I've been a quiet observer and casual Starcraft player for years now.
But now that GOMTV has found a market for English commentators, I'd at least like to give it a shot. It's probably something about the size of a BB gun, where as someone like Tasteless is wielding a rocket launcher, but a shot nonetheless.
So, as for my question: Where do I start?
edit: I already exchanged a couple of e-mails with Tasteless, of which he sort of blew me off. I don't know if I just rubbed him the wrong way or he's kind of an elitist, but I think one way to start is to follow his footsteps.
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Calgary25977 Posts
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Tasteless fell into it really, there's probably no advice he can give you even if he wanted to.
If you want to be a Starcraft commentator register a youtube account. That's about the best advice that can be given. If you believe there's something that separates you from the rest then start getting it out there. The community has shown they aren't shy about championing their favorites commentators
If you want a serious career in broadcasting, you might want to look into broadcasting school.
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On September 30 2008 07:38 Chill wrote:You know, as much as I hate to do this, SC2GG is better than us at this, so I'll recommend you read a few threads over there. This one is particularly good: http://sc2gg.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1834And this has a little bit of information: http://sc2gg.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2477I still believe teamliquid has a better community which is why I'm hesitant to turn you loose, but SC2GG is really much better at proliferating commentaries.
I want to have your baby.
And it's not like I'm leaving the TL community, or that I was here to begin with. I've been lurking for quite a bit. Of course, I found gg.net before I found TL or SC2GG, so I'm kind of set with them, actually.
But seriously, that is a fantastic point to start at. Thanks a lot.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Tasteless was sucessful because he was the first with passion. He "blew you off" because many people have pipe dreams they never act on, and after hearing it for the billionth time, you stop giving out meaningful advise because the effort-reward ratio is way off. If you want to follow in Tasteless' footsteps, spend 4 years as an amatuer caster traveling the United States, then eventually you will pick up momentum and get sent to events, and then eventually you can secure a contract.
But before you try, do you understand StarCraft fundamentals? If not, learn the game first.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On September 30 2008 07:58 VorcePA wrote:Of course, I found gg.net before I found TL or SC2GG, so I'm kind of set with them, actually. -_- That's just mean.
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GG.net can't satisfy you like Chill TL can!
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On September 30 2008 07:59 Chill wrote:
But before you try, do you understand StarCraft fundamentals? If not, learn the game first.
I think I do. I learned quite a bit just from listening to Tasteless. My game improved, but I have never, ever, *ever* competed. As a Terran player, I know that as a general rule there's heavy use of drop ships in TvT, you almost always go heavy metal vs. protoss, Marines&Medics are what you use most of the time vs. zerg, but I have seen successful heavy metal vs. zerg.
I mean, of course there's more, but I think I understand the fundamentals of Starcraft. What I have yet to understand is the timing push. It's part of the reason why I lose on ICCup so often; that, and the fact that I've never broken 130 APM. =\
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On September 30 2008 08:09 VorcePA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 07:59 Chill wrote:
But before you try, do you understand StarCraft fundamentals? If not, learn the game first. I think I do. I learned quite a bit just from listening to Tasteless. My game improved, but I have never, ever, *ever* competed. As a Terran player, I know that as a general rule there's heavy use of drop ships in TvT, you almost always go heavy metal vs. protoss, Marines&Medics are what you use most of the time vs. zerg, but I have seen successful heavy metal vs. zerg. I mean, of course there's more, but I think I understand the fundamentals of Starcraft. What I have yet to understand is the timing push. It's part of the reason why I lose on ICCup so often; that, and the fact that I've never broken 130 APM. =\
It really sounds like you don't know much about the game. While tasteless may know a lot about protoss, he's not the most knowledgeable about the other races, and even his knowledge of protoss doesn't show too much in his casts. So if you learned about the game from watching him, you don't know nearly enough.
Because he casts solo, he doesn't go into as much strategic detail and explanations as the Korean casters can. It works much better with multiple casters, when one takes that as his primary role.
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Calgary25977 Posts
O God. I don't know man. What makes you think you should be commentating? I mean, I can play guitar at a grade 1 level, I don't put up Youtube videos of myself playing because no one wants to see that. So unless you are some sort of savant (amazing voice, incredible talent for the game) I don't see what qualifies you to explain the game to other people if you can't compete at it yourself and you haven't studied it.
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On September 30 2008 08:51 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 08:09 VorcePA wrote:On September 30 2008 07:59 Chill wrote:
But before you try, do you understand StarCraft fundamentals? If not, learn the game first. I think I do. I learned quite a bit just from listening to Tasteless. My game improved, but I have never, ever, *ever* competed. As a Terran player, I know that as a general rule there's heavy use of drop ships in TvT, you almost always go heavy metal vs. protoss, Marines&Medics are what you use most of the time vs. zerg, but I have seen successful heavy metal vs. zerg. I mean, of course there's more, but I think I understand the fundamentals of Starcraft. What I have yet to understand is the timing push. It's part of the reason why I lose on ICCup so often; that, and the fact that I've never broken 130 APM. =\ It really sounds like you don't know much about the game. While tasteless may know a lot about protoss, he's not the most knowledgeable about the other races, and even his knowledge of protoss doesn't show too much in his casts. So if you learned about the game from watching him, you don't know nearly enough. Because he casts solo, he doesn't go into as much strategic detail and explanations as the Korean casters can. It works much better with multiple casters, when one takes that as his primary role.
this
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On September 30 2008 08:09 VorcePA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 07:59 Chill wrote:
But before you try, do you understand StarCraft fundamentals? If not, learn the game first. I think I do. I learned quite a bit just from listening to Tasteless. My game improved, but I have never, ever, *ever* competed. As a Terran player, I know that as a general rule there's heavy use of drop ships in TvT, you almost always go heavy metal vs. protoss, Marines&Medics are what you use most of the time vs. zerg, but I have seen successful heavy metal vs. zerg. I mean, of course there's more, but I think I understand the fundamentals of Starcraft. What I have yet to understand is the timing push. It's part of the reason why I lose on ICCup so often; that, and the fact that I've never broken 130 APM. =\
Tasteless misses a lot of what's going on strategically with the other races, almost to the point where it's hard to watch. But, He has a great personality, passion for SC, and experience/reputation. In my opinion, strategically, for the Foreign scene to expand and grow, we need more commentators like Artosis and Chill, who actually understand what's happening, and can articulate it properly.
To be honest, you sound like a D- or D. And that's not me insulting you in anyway, but to gain an audience with experienced and passionate SC players, you need a higher rank so you can understand what's going on. As chill said, you can learn the ABSOLUTE basics, go to sc2gg and start commentating for all the people who are totally new to SC. But to match-up with Tasteless, Chill, Artosis, etc.. You need a great understanding of all the matchups, a lot of personal experience in SC, and an interesting personality.
I don't mean to break any dreams though.. =o
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United States42486 Posts
On September 30 2008 09:13 Chill wrote:
O God. I don't know man. What makes you think you should be commentating? I mean, I can play guitar at a grade 1 level, I don't put up Youtube videos of myself playing because no one wants to see that. So unless you are some sort of savant (amazing voice, incredible talent for the game) I don't see what qualifies you to explain the game to other people if you can't compete at it yourself and you haven't studied it.
This man speaks truth.
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Hmmm I dont know where most of you are getting your Tasteless commentary from but I think he is very well strategically versed. I mean of course it is not all he concentrates on since he has to do all if by himself, but he understands the basic BO and flow of every matchup for every race. I see what your saying here, but I myself find "over analyzing" is often worse than not knowing everything about everything.
To the OP: I would try and do one if I were you, post it here and see what everyone thinks. From what you have posted it doesnt sound like your bag, but it can never hurt right?
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On September 30 2008 09:13 Chill wrote:
O God. I don't know man. What makes you think you should be commentating? I mean, I can play guitar at a grade 1 level, I don't put up Youtube videos of myself playing because no one wants to see that. So unless you are some sort of savant (amazing voice, incredible talent for the game) I don't see what qualifies you to explain the game to other people if you can't compete at it yourself and you haven't studied it. let's see you playing guitar chill, i'm curious
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On September 30 2008 08:00 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 07:58 VorcePA wrote:On September 30 2008 07:38 Chill wrote:You know, as much as I hate to do this, SC2GG is better than us at this, so I'll recommend you read a few threads over there. This one is particularly good: http://sc2gg.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1834And this has a little bit of information: http://sc2gg.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2477I still believe teamliquid has a better community which is why I'm hesitant to turn you loose, but SC2GG is really much better at proliferating commentaries. Of course, I found gg.net before I found TL or SC2GG, so I'm kind of set with them, actually. -_- That's just mean.
Exactly what I was thinking.
I used to be a full gg.net user... until I realized that TL owns them in every conceivable way. Don't worry, you'll find out the true power of TL, and you will have no choice but to submit to its glory!
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Well, regardless of my current understanding of starcraft, or my rating, or anything else, Chill did the unspeakable and gave me links to get going, so... here's to giving it a shot. *takes a shot*
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Braavos36374 Posts
i listened to one of your casts and to be brutally honest you have a long way to go. your flow isn't there, you don't say anything particularly interesting and your casting voice and style are average at best. you also lack understanding of the game pretty badly but you can improve that part at least. i'm not saying you can't be a good caster someday after a lot of practice, because you can, but dreaming of "following in tasteless footsteps" is setting a goal that frankly is impossible for you. i'd take it one step at a time and see how it goes.
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This guy doesnt sound like he is anywhere near qualified to be commentating on starcraft. Learn the game inside and out, then consider casting.
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also, in general the better you are at starcraft, the better you will be as a commentator
the deeper your knowledge of the game is - what means what, what maps favor what - combined with your knowledge of the player and their playstyle will make you a better commentator
so try as much as you can to learn the subtleties and DO YOUR HOMEWORK
I can not think of a commentator yet who deeply knows and explains the matchup, the map, the players, the rivalry etc... so really make sure you study
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Thanks for that post Chill, I've been wanting to start on commentating too, just for my own entertainment, and that post on sc2gg is great, I probably would have never found it.
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I always wanted to be a comedian commentator/shoutcaster.
For example, rather than giving insightful and strategic information to my viewers, I'd be constantly making lame and cheesy jokes along with making fun of the players and their abilities knowing quite well and stating that my skill is incomparable to theirs. Also things like what would a noob say in a situation or what would a noob think or strategize for a certain scenario.
ie. "idra should have some turrets up already, he's going to get torn apart by mutalisk harass... oh, there are the mutalisks building and not a single turret has been built ... WTF, HOW'D GET BUILD SO MANY TURRETS SO FAST?!?!" (reference to a certain game *cough*)
ie2. "wtf is flash doing sending so many scvs out.. he's going to get 1 base carriered by bisu and .. why is he building that there, he's gonna get scouted and get owned." (but he doesn't)
ie3. "that scouting probe woulda lived longer if it built a shield battery to recharge with"
yup! everyone would hate me. fantastic!
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I agree with what most people have said on this thread. Can't just listen to tasteless and expect to cast bro, gotta know the game.
Casting requires an excellent understanding of the game: each races' builds, responses to those builds, timing, map strategy, and finally the players' mentalities. "Fundamentals" will only result in shit like: "Player A is attacking Player B". But really as a caster, you have to be able to expand on that and provide much more insight.
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Chill actually gave some decent advice (read: better than pretty much everyone else here). Some of the best commentators I know (tasteless, Artosis, and Chill come to mind) are respectable Starcraft players themselves. Tasteless and Artosis have both represented USA WCG, and Chill's like B on Iccup.
And SC2gg does have a pretty good commentary market. It's an interesting niche. Once GOMCAST is released for them it will be a huge asset to that community.
Getting better at commentating is like getting better at starcraft. There's really no easy ways.
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United States13896 Posts
On September 30 2008 11:00 Mastermind wrote:
This guy doesnt sound like he is anywhere near qualified to be commentating on starcraft. Learn the game inside and out, then consider casting.
Qualified? This isn't a job interview here - it's his hobby, let him learn by doing.
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You really shouldn't set your goals to "follow in Tasteless'" footsteps. You see, back when commentary in the scene almost died, I attempted to follow in his footsteps. I took commentary way too seriously, and got nowhere. There's a combination of things that allow you to become a good commentator. I was missing a lot of it; lack of game knowledge, bad voice, etc. The only thing I personally felt happy about was excitement, but... you just can't set your goals so high.
Now I've improved my knowledge of the game by a bit and instead of being a D commentator I have gotten my rank much higher... but no longer am I serious about commentating. I commentate for fun and whenever I feel like it, or when I see some of my favorite players playing. It's actually much better this way. I used to believe that "mnm vs zerg, metal vs protoss" was 'fundamentals' but those are just the very basics that anyone would know. It's almost a given! Really game knowledge has to be improved, or people will have trouble listening to commentaries that say wrong stuff all the time. After I began to stop commentating and Klazart began, I was a huge fan. Now whenever I listen to him/Diggity/moletrap/Cholera or anyone else from SC2GG, yes they may say some things right and have excitement and maybe good cohesion, but it's almost impossible for me to listen to them and not go.... "What?!" At some point it's just too hard to listen to blatant mistakes.
I advise you to read the thread Chill posted and start casual commentating. Now it's more of a hobby than a serious activity for me, and I find it's a lot more fun and people enjoy my commentating a lot more now. I know I kind of derailed my own post with random experiences and stuff but here's the thing. You want to commentate for fun, not for other people really. People enjoying your commentaries is just a bonus. Then you'll see where it can take you. It takes a perfect mixture to make a "Tasteless", he had luck, humor and was insightful. But if there's anything that you can take out of this, just follow your heart! Good luck!
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Well, me, I dont really commentate on pro matches atm, but I think I'm getting quite far with superior SC knowledge overall. If I had to do solo casting and I had to show a lot of emotion and all I think it would be impossible for me lol.
Maybe I'll do dual commentaries with superiorwolf and make him scream and shout and I'll just talk as if my dog died like I always do and provide the necessary information lol.
Anyway its important to accept what talents you have at the moment. Me, personally I think I only have sc skill that makes me stick out of the bunch. I dont think I have any special commentating skill
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On September 30 2008 10:18 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:
Hmmm I dont know where most of you are getting your Tasteless commentary from but I think he is very well strategically versed. I mean of course it is not all he concentrates on since he has to do all if by himself, but he understands the basic BO and flow of every matchup for every race. I see what your saying here, but I myself find "over analyzing" is often worse than not knowing everything about everything.
To the OP: I would try and do one if I were you, post it here and see what everyone thinks. From what you have posted it doesnt sound like your bag, but it can never hurt right?
I agree. It seems to me tasteless often has interesting things to say about each matchup and he always predicts what's going to happen very well. He obviously understands every matchup very well, which I guess is bound to happen after you've commentated on as many matches as he has.
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On September 30 2008 07:38 Chill wrote:You know, as much as I hate to do this, SC2GG is better than us at this, so I'll recommend you read a few threads over there. This one is particularly good: http://sc2gg.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1834And this has a little bit of information: http://sc2gg.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2477I still believe teamliquid has a better community which is why I'm hesitant to turn you loose, but SC2GG is really much better at proliferating commentaries.
Proliferating is easy. Quality on the other hand?
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To be honest, if I go back and listen to my first commentaries, I think they are pretty bad, too. I haven't gone back and listened for more than a minute to any of my early games, but I'm sure I would hear myself from a year ago saying things that would make me now say "What?!" as well.
But I listened more to the encouragement and less to the stfu and kept doing it, and as with almost anything in this world, you get better with practice. I mean better at the mechanics of commentating but also better at analysis.
I agree it's best to do it for fun and not for the attention. You will have haters no matter how good you are (so take what advice you can get from it but don't pay too much attention to them), and you will always make mistakes. I have mad respect for Tasteless and mean no insult when I say that even Tasteless makes mistakes. But not doing something because you might make mistakes is a horrible way to live your life.
Yes, playing the game more will help you get a better understanding of the game. But you also need to commentate (I still find that an awkward word) to get better at commentating. If you don't start cooking until you have memorized your cookbook and grown your own vegetables, you won't really be any better at cooking than you were before. So do both, and have fun.
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I probably should not have responded to the question of "do you know your basics" about Starcraft, because everyone's answer to "what are the basics" would be inescapably different. That's part of the reason why we all love this game so much.
Honestly, I could probably manage to write a dissertation on one map with one race with one strategy. That being said, I'm not really here to defend myself. I was looking for a place to start, and chill provided that, and I thank him. Only problem is I can't be loud and excited and have the passion for this game that I so long to have, like many of you, because of my current living conditions. That just means I have to move somewhere more desirable before I can start commentating.
I do think the lot of you are right, though -- to an extent -- about my level of play. I'm not a good player. I would love to be, but I've never pursued anyone to help train me beyond "the basics". It is no doubt an asset to commentating to be an above average, if not former professional player. However, I do not see that as a requirement. It just means I have the same 10,000 meter ladder to climb as everyone else, except my legs are weaker. It's not that I can't do it, it's just going to be tougher.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
You don't need to know sc inside and out in order to be a commentator but you'll need a partner who can provide the analysis. There are two types of commentators: the type that gives play by play commentating and the type that discusses pre-match analysis/predictions & in-game strategy. It's great if you can have both but usually being strong in one is enough.
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On September 30 2008 09:52 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 08:09 VorcePA wrote:On September 30 2008 07:59 Chill wrote:
But before you try, do you understand StarCraft fundamentals? If not, learn the game first. I think I do. I learned quite a bit just from listening to Tasteless. My game improved, but I have never, ever, *ever* competed. As a Terran player, I know that as a general rule there's heavy use of drop ships in TvT, you almost always go heavy metal vs. protoss, Marines&Medics are what you use most of the time vs. zerg, but I have seen successful heavy metal vs. zerg. I mean, of course there's more, but I think I understand the fundamentals of Starcraft. What I have yet to understand is the timing push. It's part of the reason why I lose on ICCup so often; that, and the fact that I've never broken 130 APM. =\ Tasteless misses a lot of what's going on strategically with the other races, almost to the point where it's hard to watch. But, He has a great personality, passion for SC, and experience/reputation. In my opinion, strategically, for the Foreign scene to expand and grow, we need more commentators like Artosis and Chill, who actually understand what's happening, and can articulate it properly. To be honest, you sound like a D- or D. And that's not me insulting you in anyway, but to gain an audience with experienced and passionate SC players, you need a higher rank so you can understand what's going on. As chill said, you can learn the ABSOLUTE basics, go to sc2gg and start commentating for all the people who are totally new to SC. But to match-up with Tasteless, Chill, Artosis, etc.. You need a great understanding of all the matchups, a lot of personal experience in SC, and an interesting personality. I don't mean to break any dreams though.. =o
You say that like tasteless isnt a good player outside of casting
Oh and if you ever want to become a great caster you need to have a likeable voice. It doesn't matter how good you are, how amazing about anything you are - if your voice sucks you're doomed to fail.
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tasteless was a top usa player(kinda) for years before he had any exposure through casting. He finally started doing some minor casting for WCG usa, and I believe that he won a poll that WCG had for who they wanted to come cast the real WCG.
Tasteless had years and years of starcraft experience, then years and years of casting experience. He also had a lot of talent, a lot of drive, and a LOT of luck to get where he is now.
Not trying to kill your dream here, if you enjoy casting, do it anyways. Although dont expect a paycheck for it. Ever.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
I blew you off? what's your email?
Here's my whole take on the commentary thing:
you need to decide who your audience will be. If i know i'll be casting to a bunch of people who have literally never seen a starcraft game before i'm not going to go over their heads and use words they don't understand. if i'm casting to a bunch of diehard sc fans then i need to explain as many technicalities as possible. there will always be people who will complain and want you to tailor your casts to their preference, be careful not to overcompensate. also, get used to reading tons of comments people will make about you. Your bound to fuck up during a cast eventually, no mater how much you do it, so get used to that too. There was once a TvT i casted where i had both players names swaped for about 20 minutes. i felt like shit when i realized i had made a mistake like that, but i had to focus and continue to cast since we were only half way done that day.
you have to focus on what style the broadcast will be. will you be casting a replay or a live game? will you be in front of an audience? will you be controlling the observer screen? all of those should be approached differently.
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster. this is the biggest mistake i see with esports casting. i'm not saying im the best player in the world, but i've definitely competed in a lot of starcraft tournaments in my life time. i've also reached A- with protoss on iccup a few seasons ago (i got to B this season but i stopped playing because i left korea to visit my family). I've been a USA A member and captain of RSGaming during it's prime when we won WGT division 1. I also play bet games against rekrul, elky, grrr, spunky, smuft and other former progamers. if i wasn't doing stuff like this i wouldn't be able to ramble on for hours about SC.
A lot of people don't know this but i was not the 1st SC caster. There was someone before me called Wacksteven. He brought a lot of passion and had a great voice but he honestly knew nothing about the metagame in Starccraft. at times it would be insulted by his lack of insight when i would watch him cast the earlier WCG Starcraft matches. If you can't get to at least B on iccup your probably not ready to be casting. there's way too much that will be going over your head.
I think getting a cocaster is critical. If Artosis was casting with me at GomTV for instance, my job would be a lot easier. You have to focus incredibly hard on what both players are trying to do in order to predict what will happen. having someone to bounce ideas off of will help a lot.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
oh and putting youtube videos of yourself will most likely not get you casting live events. what you would need to do is show up to live events and shake hands with the people who run esports tournaments. i've spent a lot of time taking CEOs of these companies out to dinner and explaining to them what starcraft is and why it's a great game. I've written countless emails to tournaments offering my work and sending in demos. Only lately have i managed to get my name out enough to where people have gone out of their way to contact me. the only thing i got lucky with was being eliminated early on at WCG USA in 2005. That bought me enough time to offer myself to cast the games for free.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
I really wanna be a commentator as well. But I can't get past the technical aspect of adding sound to videos. Bummer.
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This is a good thread. I imagine it will be helpful for anyone curious about becoming a commentator.
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On September 30 2008 18:16 ret wrote:
I really wanna be a commentator as well. But I can't get past the technical aspect of adding sound to videos. Bummer.
if you had read tasteless' post... its only for good players.. i dont think we are waiting for another D- guy to cast >_<;
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Well u should talk to someone that is already an commentator :o gl in being 1
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Have you considered getting a color commentator? Someone to turn to when you're not sure what to say? Specifically someone who has a really good understanding of the game?
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On September 30 2008 19:41 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 18:16 ret wrote:
I really wanna be a commentator as well. But I can't get past the technical aspect of adding sound to videos. Bummer. if you had read tasteless' post... its only for good players.. i dont think we are waiting for another D- guy to cast >_<;
lol
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On September 30 2008 07:58 VorcePA wrote:
Of course, I found gg.net before I found TL or SC2GG, so I'm kind of set with them, actually.
uh oh.
UH OH.
you know what people will do to you now?! lynch and maybe eat your babies. gg.net vs tl this sunday!
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On September 30 2008 19:41 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 18:16 ret wrote:
I really wanna be a commentator as well. But I can't get past the technical aspect of adding sound to videos. Bummer. if you had read tasteless' post... its only for good players.. i dont think we are waiting for another D- guy to cast >_<;
thereisalwaysplaceforcombatexhiguys.
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On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
There was once a TvT i casted where i had both players names swaped for about 20 minutes. i felt like shit when i realized i had made a mistake like that, but i had to focus and continue to cast since we were only half way done that day.
DAAAAH I remember that game! I watched you cast it live. I thought it was hilarious. But here's the thing: I forgave you. I didn't hold it against you, nor did I think you were a bad caster because of it. Yeah, if you constantly made mistakes like that I'd think twice about your abilities to cast, but one mistake every now and again like that isn't going to kill you. Actually, what drives me nuts about watching you is that you get building and unit names mixed up a lot. You *obviously* know more about this game than I do, so it's ok that you make tiny mistakes like that; we all know what you're trying to say. If that weren't enough, I know you have to talk fast, and think even faster, so I (and I think most of us) don't hold it against you.
I wish I had discovered the pro-gaming scene 6 years ago, rather than 6 months ago. I would be a radically different player.
And in regards to your second post: I'm not saying I'm going to be a good caster tomorrow, a great caster next week, and a prodigy in 3 months and lo and behold I'm in Korea. That's stupid. The *best* I can ever hope for is being one of the first on scene for Starcraft 2, and with any luck it will be as popular as its predecessor. Someone mentioned that I shouldn't try to set my goal so high as following in your footsteps. Where you are today is an unattainable goal in the near future, and the odds favor that I will never reach it. But starting out by posting videos on youtube is, well, a place to start.
edit: my comments about your commentating are not meant to patronize you. Nobody is perfect. And even if you do take it offensively coming from a newb like me, just remember: you set the example for all of us.
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On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster.
Tasteless, I have a ton of respect for you and realize you are a pioneer, but this is where I disagree with you. Yes you need to have solid fundamental knowledge and be an intense student of the game, but there's a point where it splits. In commentating you only need to know it, where as in a game situation you need to be able to execute it. I'm a hobbyist for commentary. I'm not looking to get a paycheck out of it. I really won't say how good or bad I am, I don't enjoy making judgments of myself. I can't play a game of SC to save my life. I'll admit it. It's not because I don't know what to do or have no clue what's going on, it's execution. At that point where you need to do every thing simultaneously and pull of all the micro-management, my mind overloads and I shut down. I forget things. My economy goes to the shitter, my macro comes screeching to a halt, and I forget to continue scouting. I look like a blubbering idiot. Yet when I watch a pro game, I have a sound knowledge of what's going on. Yeah there's still the occasional "WTF just happened" moment, but you learn as you study.
I'm not trying to promote or deter anyone from commentating. In my opinion, if you like it, do it. I know, however that I watched an entire season of proleague an MSL, an OSL and two leagues sponsored by GOM before I even strapped on the headset and recorded. I think that even if you are forever bound to D-, you can still learn the game solid from other commentators and just watching games en masse.
Good luck to anyone who pursues this.
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Hahaha that article title is so great.
God I should print out copies and hand them out when necessary.
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I guess I will chime in.
Instead of tasteless' advice of "if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster", I would say If you dont like casting itself don't do it. But if you are passionate about the game and casting just do it and don't look back.
Though I have to say I totally understand where Tasteless is coming from. He has been to events where the caster hasn't even played through the broodwar campaign. From what I have seen its just in the nature of esports casting.
Starcraft casting is a lot different than other esports just due to the game itself. Starcraft is crazy in depth. I am constantly learning new things which is part of why I enjoy doing it so much. If you enjoy the feeling of discovery and sharing that with people then I would say stick to it.
I am a bad player. I will probably never appeal to anyone who is C or above. (Though there are exceptions of course.) However I have noticed that there are very few seriously players above C level that enjoy any type of commentary. The simple reason is I am aiming for the casual spectator not the hardcore gamer. My commentating doesn't appeal to hardcore gamers.
From what I have seen, hardcore gamers prefer Tasteless' commentaries, particularly those in which he mentions various tips and tricks which they can employ to improve their play. Artosis obviously falls into this category as well due to his depth of knowledge. Rarely can I provide that to a C/B player. Part of the rub with a lot people is that I simply don't care.
I'm not trying to please the hardcore gamer nor am I trying to teach people to become gosu starcraft players. I am trying to draw people into the game itself. Esports is dead in the water when only the most elite players can watch, enjoy and understand a commentary. In my opinion this is one of the key problems with counter-strike and other FPS.
Starcraft is unique because there are various levels of understanding. And in that framework there can be spectators, gamers and professionals.
I will always encourage people to try commentary and to stick with it for awhile. Partially because I derive a lot of pleasure from it and I would never want to deny anyone that. But mostly because there are guys like Vaul and Cholera out there who are fantastic casters who probably wouldn't have started without some encouragement or a place to start.
Even recently Cholera involved Louder who did a fantastic job his first time out and he might turn out to be the best commentator of all time, you never know.
But first I would suggest looking for some way that you can help out the community at large, basically where there is a gap or a hole.
The problem you are going to run into is you are entering territory that is very well trodden. When Moletrap and I started Klazart was on hiatus and there was zero english starcraft for OSL MSL and proleague. Now there are over a dozen youtube commentators and more testing their metal every day. So I only suggest doing it if you really are dedicated.
Beyond that I can guarantee no matter how entertaining or insightful your commentary is someone will hate it. Welcome to the internet. Try to differential those who are truly concerned with helping you out and those who have their own issues you can do nothing about. Real advice is rare and valuable.
Also listen to other commentators to understand how they are unique in what they offer and how you yourself can offer something unique. Tasteless and Artosis are great commentators beyond just their stellar game knowledge.
Feel free to tap me at sc2gg, I am always open to give technical tips among other things.
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Tasteless, I have massive respect for your commentaries and I think you do an amazing job over at korea. I don't know if this was what you always wanted to do, but good on you for taking the risk, and landing it big time.
However, I do disagree with your statement that you can only be a good commentator if you were a good player. eg. There are plenty of sports commentators that give pretty good insight into their respective sporting matches without actually playing the sport themselves.
This is similar to coaches of sports teams. *most* of them have been ex players, but there are tons of world class coaches who have a deep understanding of the sport, but haven't really excelled as a player.
Anyway, I look forward to tuning in live for your casting of boxer. Hope it'll turn out to be an epic.
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Chill&Artosis dream casting team
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
i'm not saying people shouldn't experiment with casting for fun. the way i read the OP i assumed he wanted to go professional with casting. frankly i think you should do whatever you want, regardless of what people say. i was told by countless people in the esports scene that SC was a dieing game (obviously untrue) and that a career as a starcraft caster would be impossible. i'm happy to say those people were dead wrong. however, to become professional at this i think it's so critical that you have an arsenal of competitive experience.
getting a high rank on iccup is a hell of a lot more than having good mechanics. this seems to be a big delusion amongst D- to D+ ranked players; that if they were just playing more they would be able to climb the ranks easily. Even when reaching the C level, you can still tell a lot of people play like robots who can be duped into doing the wrong move without too much trouble. There's a lot of psychology that takes place with scouting in early to midgame that, as far as i can tell, you only start to truly catch on to if your playing a ton of starcraft games and have a vast experience with different build orders.
as far as i know all sports casters have deep experience with the game. if they don't and they're simply professional MCs then they have a color commentator who makes up for everything they don't have.
The direction i was trying to point the OP in was that he should start playing as much as possible and get some in game experience, this will give you more to talk about and you'll be able to cast more comfortably.
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Since this is actually a serious discussion on Starcraft commentary, I'll unstop my lurkers and throw in my 2 spines.
I've been doing commentaries of Korean pro-games for about 6 months now. At first, when I started off, I was much less fluent in either casting or game analysis that I am now, and when I posted some links up at Teamliquid, I felt pretty much blown off. So I haven't really posted here since then, even though I think I've improved to the point where my technical analysis and obsessive knowledge of the pro-gamers would make even some the biggest skeptics here accept my videos. I don't claim to catch all the nuances and details, and many times, even when I do see them, there's simply not enough screen time to mention them. In the interest of full disclosure, I play very often since I've started commentating, but not competitively since the old days of Battle.net ladder and PGT before 2002. I do try to make sure I play every new map that comes out several times, though, before I cast games on them.
One of my "serious gamer" viewers, Louder, who's going to the WCG USA, actually did some dual casts with me on the recent MSL Ro32 Group B, with Flash/Jangbi/Bul_T/Yellow[arnc]. I decided to do the play-by-play and give background knowledge on the players while asking Louder what he would do in certain situations, what his predictions on tech choices would be, etc. The end result has received some of the best reviews of any of my videos, and I really hope some of the head Teamliquid members could take a look. Here is the first game, you can find the rest as video responses:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've also tried to consciously improve the technical level of analysis in my commentary. Here's a solo attempt that cuts out most of my color commentary and focuses on just the TvT action in a Proleague All-Stars game between Flash and Fantasy:
+ Show Spoiler +
And finally, here's an example of what I think of what I think is my "usual" style, with the excellent Stork v ForGG games in the WCG Korea qualifiers a month ago:
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyway, my point is this: I would not mind more involved in Teamliquid, and I have tried a few times from the start, but I feel that I wouldn't be given a fair chance at here of getting viewers or just some constructive feedback. I feel that my posting here (or Diggity, Klazart, and Moletrap doing so) would most likely result in an a scoff-fest at my playing skills, with many of the responders not even watching my videos before judging. Sure, there's mistakes. But us four have been providing consistent, comprehensive English casting of the OSL, MSL, and Proleague for several seasons now. That's hundreds of games that are no where else cast in a language that most foreign viewers can understand. We have received hundreds, if not thousands, of messages saying that they wouldn't have watched those games if not for our commentaries, of which I usually receive 3000 - 4000 viewers, and Klazart can receive up to 10,000+. These viewers add to eSports publicity in general, which benefits Teamliquid, Tasteless, the chances of eSports being broadcast in the US, and all other good things. So I do hope that the members here would at least give my videos another shot - take a look at the ones I posted, for example - and reconsider their views of my work. I would love to contribute more to your site if you let me without being pre-judged.
By the way, I love your casting, Tasteless! I have literally seen every game you have casted - from the old WCG casts with DJ Wheat, to the WWI games with Bunny, to every single GomTV Invitation/Classic game on the list. I appreciate very much that you have paved the way for later enthusiasts like us, and I hope we can meet sometime at WCG Cologne, to which I'll most likely go also.
Cheers - Cholera
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Calgary25977 Posts
Wow okay so this is an sc2gg thread now I guess...
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United States13896 Posts
sigh ... let the flaming begin ...
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I recorded some commentaries once. Then i realized i was terrible at starcraft and shouldn't be doing them. Its like this, a commentator's job is to bring insight to the game - anyone and his mother can say "oh there go the zerglings, oh he's sieging his tanks". You have to be able to present something that makes the audience go "ah!".
The best sports commentators of all time have ALWAYS come directly from the field they are casting - usually as a player then to a coach then to commentator. There is always years of experience and credibility behind what they are talking about no matter who is watching. When you watch a sports commentary the lead announcer isn't necessarily an ex pro/coach. Often he is a news anchor or hired by the network for his casting ability.
DJWheat is a perfect example - he doesn't know much about starcraft (he knows a shit load about shooters specifically quake as he was ex progamer) but he has years of casting experience. By himself he is no different than a youtube caster. BUT, djwheat always has someone like Tasteless to provide that knowledge and can feed of what tasteless is saying to present a smooth and enjoyable cast.
The reason SC2GG commentators get such bad feedback is because yes, they know more than the audience they are presenting to (randoms on youtube), but there is no depth of knowledge to back up what they are presenting. Put Tasteless or Artosis or Nony with diggity and you could broadcast it on NBC. Yes you can learn starcraft from watching vods and replays. I really don't believe that you can be among the top in your field unless you have the experience or have a partner with the experience to back you up.
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My post has nothing to do with SC2GG.com, nor do I claim to represent them, or ask anyone here to to like them more, etc. All I'm talking about is new commentators and reactions to them here. Let's try to keep it on topic, and change the thread title back to what it was.
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Belgium9947 Posts
On October 01 2008 14:25 WorldCommunist8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster. Tasteless, I have a ton of respect for you and realize you are a pioneer, but this is where I disagree with you. Yes you need to have solid fundamental knowledge and be an intense student of the game, but there's a point where it splits. In commentating you only need to know it, where as in a game situation you need to be able to execute it. I'm a hobbyist for commentary. I'm not looking to get a paycheck out of it. I really won't say how good or bad I am, I don't enjoy making judgments of myself. I can't play a game of SC to save my life. I'll admit it. It's not because I don't know what to do or have no clue what's going on, it's execution. At that point where you need to do every thing simultaneously and pull of all the micro-management, my mind overloads and I shut down. I forget things. My economy goes to the shitter, my macro comes screeching to a halt, and I forget to continue scouting. I look like a blubbering idiot. Yet when I watch a pro game, I have a sound knowledge of what's going on. Yeah there's still the occasional "WTF just happened" moment, but you learn as you study. I'm not trying to promote or deter anyone from commentating. In my opinion, if you like it, do it. I know, however that I watched an entire season of proleague an MSL, an OSL and two leagues sponsored by GOM before I even strapped on the headset and recorded. I think that even if you are forever bound to D-, you can still learn the game solid from other commentators and just watching games en masse. Good luck to anyone who pursues this.
Well this is where you are wrong. And this is what any good brood war player will tell you:
Eventhough you learn a lot by watching high-level StarCraft, you will never really understand it unless you played at a decent level.
You think the difference is small, but the difference is huge. HUGE. You've probably seen the standard TvZ a million times: 1 Rax FE vs 3hatch muta. You can probably 'predict' (yes quotation marks because its not through reasoning but through personal viewing experience) what's gonna happen next. But you know nothing of how the game evolved to that point, why that build is more suited to one map than to the other, how it affects your gameplan when you lose 4 scvs or 9scvs during mutaharass. Things like that really matter.. and you'll never know even half of what a decent player would know about it.
You guys have been improving, props to that, but you'll never become good casters. Solely for the fact that you learned StarCraft from watching StarCraft. You can't introduce new facts to people that just watch StarCraft regularily. You can't provide them with analysis. You're just like them. A viewer.
I'm not saying casting is easy, not at all. I've done some casting myself and I'm fucking terrible. But I still think it'd take a fluent speaking top player not even a week of practice to catch up with 99% of the SC2GG commentators in skill, eventhough you've been doing this for ages. And every week after that he'll double his outperforming you.
Hey, you guys cater to a different audience, I'm aware of that. But in my opinion the decent starcraft players aren't gonna make the switch over to watching you guys anytime soon.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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On October 02 2008 02:05 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2008 14:25 WorldCommunist8 wrote:On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster. Tasteless, I have a ton of respect for you and realize you are a pioneer, but this is where I disagree with you. Yes you need to have solid fundamental knowledge and be an intense student of the game, but there's a point where it splits. In commentating you only need to know it, where as in a game situation you need to be able to execute it. I'm a hobbyist for commentary. I'm not looking to get a paycheck out of it. I really won't say how good or bad I am, I don't enjoy making judgments of myself. I can't play a game of SC to save my life. I'll admit it. It's not because I don't know what to do or have no clue what's going on, it's execution. At that point where you need to do every thing simultaneously and pull of all the micro-management, my mind overloads and I shut down. I forget things. My economy goes to the shitter, my macro comes screeching to a halt, and I forget to continue scouting. I look like a blubbering idiot. Yet when I watch a pro game, I have a sound knowledge of what's going on. Yeah there's still the occasional "WTF just happened" moment, but you learn as you study. I'm not trying to promote or deter anyone from commentating. In my opinion, if you like it, do it. I know, however that I watched an entire season of proleague an MSL, an OSL and two leagues sponsored by GOM before I even strapped on the headset and recorded. I think that even if you are forever bound to D-, you can still learn the game solid from other commentators and just watching games en masse. Good luck to anyone who pursues this. Well this is where you are wrong. And this is what any good brood war player will tell you: Eventhough you learn a lot by watching high-level StarCraft, you will never really understand it unless you played at a decent level.You think the difference is small, but the difference is huge. HUGE. You've probably seen the standard TvZ a million times: 1 Rax FE vs 3hatch muta. You can probably 'predict' (yes quotation marks because its not through reasoning but through personal viewing experience) what's gonna happen next. But you know nothing of how the game evolved to that point, why that build is more suited to one map than to the other, how it affects your gameplan when you lose 4 scvs or 9scvs during mutaharass. Things like that really matter.. and you'll never know even half of what a decent player would know about it. You guys have been improving, props to that, but you'll never become good casters. Solely for the fact that you learned StarCraft from watching StarCraft. You can't introduce new facts to people that just watch StarCraft regularily. You can't provide them with analysis. You're just like them. A viewer. I'm not saying casting is easy, not at all. I've done some casting myself and I'm fucking terrible. But I still think it'd take a fluent speaking top player not even a week of practice to catch up with 99% of the SC2GG commentators in skill, eventhough you've been doing this for ages. And every week after that he'll double his outperforming you. Hey, you guys cater to a different audience, I'm aware of that. But in my opinion the decent starcraft players aren't gonna make the switch over to watching you guys anytime soon.
In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell.
It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary.
Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job.
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
Knowing what you're saying and blurting out what you're thinking makes the biggest difference in the world. And yes, we can also see what's going on in the game as well as you can.
You may provide us with some excitement, to say the least, but what else? Oh, the big factor: We get to hear it in English. But I will still never watch your commentating. Why should I? I can get the same excitement hearing the beasty voice of "mahhhhhhhhhhhk".
The sole purpose of doing the subtitle thread was because I wanted everyone to see the insight of the Korean games. Not seeing what's happening, but understanding what's happening allows us to appreciate the game that much more.
This is my final answer, and you can't deny it; you have to have pretty darn good understanding of the game. IMO, for a foreigner to prove this, you need at least very high ranking in ICCUPs. So what's your iccup ranking? (I think this is Tastee's point too)
It's true. Korean commentators aren't good at playing starcraft at all, but they have as much as insight as the top tier(!) progamers.
There was a popular starcraft show called StarBrains. Two players play as one team, one who directs and plans, and the other just follows order and macro. Caster Um (the fat one with MAHHHHHK) was the brain and Luxury(before he was good, Yarn was far more superior/famous at this time) was the player playing against Caster Kim (Carrier Kim) with Chalreng. ZvP.
Caster Um opened with Muta opening and later switched to Hydra Lurkers. While Caster Kim defended the harrass making few archons then proceeded to collect some high templar. At the MOST PERFECT timing after building 298374987 hydras/lurks, caster Um orders Lux, "Let's build 6 mutas right about now. I don't understand why progamers dont do this, but this is such powerful strategy." Yes, he created 6 Mutas with this sole purpose: to snipe all the newly made templars. This was unthinkable even for pros at that time. Once they switched to hydra lurk, no one thought of reusing the mutas(well... only for all-in). But ever since caster Um introduced this strat, every pro zerg on planet abused this strat, sniping templars because going in with mass hydra lurk army.
At this point, you're going to say 'see? Iccup ranking doesn't mean everything'. You're right. But unless you're korean, you still have to show me your ICCUP ranking. Otherwise, I'm not buying it.
You can have very good commentating, I do not know. But no matter what, unless you either have very high iccup ranking, or you are a korean, don't waste your time. No matter how good your commentating will be, unless backed up by iccup ranking, no one will be interested.
And yes, I consider Tastee as a pure-bred Korean.
All my posts, everyone hates it with a passion. lol... <3 FBH /activate Flameproofx2
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The only problem with commentating a game is you have to balance what you think will happen, explaining why something is happening, and not being too wordy. Problem with alot of caster is that they'll explain something in one vod but not in all their others because they don't feel like saying it again or perhaps they think people watch them all so then the commentary seems empty and it's just alot of "and now hes moving out etc. filler".
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:20 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:05 RaGe wrote:On October 01 2008 14:25 WorldCommunist8 wrote:On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster. Tasteless, I have a ton of respect for you and realize you are a pioneer, but this is where I disagree with you. Yes you need to have solid fundamental knowledge and be an intense student of the game, but there's a point where it splits. In commentating you only need to know it, where as in a game situation you need to be able to execute it. I'm a hobbyist for commentary. I'm not looking to get a paycheck out of it. I really won't say how good or bad I am, I don't enjoy making judgments of myself. I can't play a game of SC to save my life. I'll admit it. It's not because I don't know what to do or have no clue what's going on, it's execution. At that point where you need to do every thing simultaneously and pull of all the micro-management, my mind overloads and I shut down. I forget things. My economy goes to the shitter, my macro comes screeching to a halt, and I forget to continue scouting. I look like a blubbering idiot. Yet when I watch a pro game, I have a sound knowledge of what's going on. Yeah there's still the occasional "WTF just happened" moment, but you learn as you study. I'm not trying to promote or deter anyone from commentating. In my opinion, if you like it, do it. I know, however that I watched an entire season of proleague an MSL, an OSL and two leagues sponsored by GOM before I even strapped on the headset and recorded. I think that even if you are forever bound to D-, you can still learn the game solid from other commentators and just watching games en masse. Good luck to anyone who pursues this. Well this is where you are wrong. And this is what any good brood war player will tell you: Eventhough you learn a lot by watching high-level StarCraft, you will never really understand it unless you played at a decent level.You think the difference is small, but the difference is huge. HUGE. You've probably seen the standard TvZ a million times: 1 Rax FE vs 3hatch muta. You can probably 'predict' (yes quotation marks because its not through reasoning but through personal viewing experience) what's gonna happen next. But you know nothing of how the game evolved to that point, why that build is more suited to one map than to the other, how it affects your gameplan when you lose 4 scvs or 9scvs during mutaharass. Things like that really matter.. and you'll never know even half of what a decent player would know about it. You guys have been improving, props to that, but you'll never become good casters. Solely for the fact that you learned StarCraft from watching StarCraft. You can't introduce new facts to people that just watch StarCraft regularily. You can't provide them with analysis. You're just like them. A viewer. I'm not saying casting is easy, not at all. I've done some casting myself and I'm fucking terrible. But I still think it'd take a fluent speaking top player not even a week of practice to catch up with 99% of the SC2GG commentators in skill, eventhough you've been doing this for ages. And every week after that he'll double his outperforming you. Hey, you guys cater to a different audience, I'm aware of that. But in my opinion the decent starcraft players aren't gonna make the switch over to watching you guys anytime soon. In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell. It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary. Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job.
I don't think TL Attack is a fair point to judge anyone's personality or casting abilities.  !
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You know, I do fully agree with the above points that being a very high level player will make you a perfect caster, especially for the hardcore SC gamers that seem to be the core members and biggest critics here. It's why I brought in Louder in my past videos as at attempt to change it up and add a lot more of the very detailed technical analysis I'd like to have but do not. I think if I were a better player myself, and had years to perfect my own game, that I would do better among the crowd here.
However, just as Tasteless said, it's about what audience you appeal to. I may get flamed for this, but I do not think Tasteless uses many technical details in his GomTV commentaries either - and I think he is BETTER for not doing so. He appeals to more fans by using his limited screen time to talk about the players and their records, the nature of the tournament, the gamers' psychology, and other aspects of color commentary (panda guy, anyone?) that make his work so popular and ground-breaking. He is an entertainer, firstly. What I don't see is people here ripping his commentaries videos up for not having those details that you claim are missing from other casters' videos, like mine (although I suspect that many of you have never seen any of mine, since I don't post here often). If you like his GomTV casts, which I love and I'm sure almost ever TLer does, then you are watching almost entirely "entertainment-level" Starcraft, meant for the casual gamer or non-gamer enthusiast, and not the ultra serious, high-level technical analysis that some claim is necessary for them to want to watch.
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On October 02 2008 02:24 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:20 lgdDante wrote:On October 02 2008 02:05 RaGe wrote:On October 01 2008 14:25 WorldCommunist8 wrote:On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster. Tasteless, I have a ton of respect for you and realize you are a pioneer, but this is where I disagree with you. Yes you need to have solid fundamental knowledge and be an intense student of the game, but there's a point where it splits. In commentating you only need to know it, where as in a game situation you need to be able to execute it. I'm a hobbyist for commentary. I'm not looking to get a paycheck out of it. I really won't say how good or bad I am, I don't enjoy making judgments of myself. I can't play a game of SC to save my life. I'll admit it. It's not because I don't know what to do or have no clue what's going on, it's execution. At that point where you need to do every thing simultaneously and pull of all the micro-management, my mind overloads and I shut down. I forget things. My economy goes to the shitter, my macro comes screeching to a halt, and I forget to continue scouting. I look like a blubbering idiot. Yet when I watch a pro game, I have a sound knowledge of what's going on. Yeah there's still the occasional "WTF just happened" moment, but you learn as you study. I'm not trying to promote or deter anyone from commentating. In my opinion, if you like it, do it. I know, however that I watched an entire season of proleague an MSL, an OSL and two leagues sponsored by GOM before I even strapped on the headset and recorded. I think that even if you are forever bound to D-, you can still learn the game solid from other commentators and just watching games en masse. Good luck to anyone who pursues this. Well this is where you are wrong. And this is what any good brood war player will tell you: Eventhough you learn a lot by watching high-level StarCraft, you will never really understand it unless you played at a decent level.You think the difference is small, but the difference is huge. HUGE. You've probably seen the standard TvZ a million times: 1 Rax FE vs 3hatch muta. You can probably 'predict' (yes quotation marks because its not through reasoning but through personal viewing experience) what's gonna happen next. But you know nothing of how the game evolved to that point, why that build is more suited to one map than to the other, how it affects your gameplan when you lose 4 scvs or 9scvs during mutaharass. Things like that really matter.. and you'll never know even half of what a decent player would know about it. You guys have been improving, props to that, but you'll never become good casters. Solely for the fact that you learned StarCraft from watching StarCraft. You can't introduce new facts to people that just watch StarCraft regularily. You can't provide them with analysis. You're just like them. A viewer. I'm not saying casting is easy, not at all. I've done some casting myself and I'm fucking terrible. But I still think it'd take a fluent speaking top player not even a week of practice to catch up with 99% of the SC2GG commentators in skill, eventhough you've been doing this for ages. And every week after that he'll double his outperforming you. Hey, you guys cater to a different audience, I'm aware of that. But in my opinion the decent starcraft players aren't gonna make the switch over to watching you guys anytime soon. In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell. It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary. Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job. I don't think TL Attack is a fair point to judge anyone's personality or casting abilities. !
Well if they have 3 hours to joke around and talk about SC and they fail to say anything interesting more than once or twice the whole time I think that's pretty fair to judge.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Tasteless mentions a lot of high level ideas in his casts, actually. He just doesn't harp on them and mentions them in passing, but they are there.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:28 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:24 Chill wrote:On October 02 2008 02:20 lgdDante wrote:On October 02 2008 02:05 RaGe wrote:On October 01 2008 14:25 WorldCommunist8 wrote:On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster. Tasteless, I have a ton of respect for you and realize you are a pioneer, but this is where I disagree with you. Yes you need to have solid fundamental knowledge and be an intense student of the game, but there's a point where it splits. In commentating you only need to know it, where as in a game situation you need to be able to execute it. I'm a hobbyist for commentary. I'm not looking to get a paycheck out of it. I really won't say how good or bad I am, I don't enjoy making judgments of myself. I can't play a game of SC to save my life. I'll admit it. It's not because I don't know what to do or have no clue what's going on, it's execution. At that point where you need to do every thing simultaneously and pull of all the micro-management, my mind overloads and I shut down. I forget things. My economy goes to the shitter, my macro comes screeching to a halt, and I forget to continue scouting. I look like a blubbering idiot. Yet when I watch a pro game, I have a sound knowledge of what's going on. Yeah there's still the occasional "WTF just happened" moment, but you learn as you study. I'm not trying to promote or deter anyone from commentating. In my opinion, if you like it, do it. I know, however that I watched an entire season of proleague an MSL, an OSL and two leagues sponsored by GOM before I even strapped on the headset and recorded. I think that even if you are forever bound to D-, you can still learn the game solid from other commentators and just watching games en masse. Good luck to anyone who pursues this. Well this is where you are wrong. And this is what any good brood war player will tell you: Eventhough you learn a lot by watching high-level StarCraft, you will never really understand it unless you played at a decent level.You think the difference is small, but the difference is huge. HUGE. You've probably seen the standard TvZ a million times: 1 Rax FE vs 3hatch muta. You can probably 'predict' (yes quotation marks because its not through reasoning but through personal viewing experience) what's gonna happen next. But you know nothing of how the game evolved to that point, why that build is more suited to one map than to the other, how it affects your gameplan when you lose 4 scvs or 9scvs during mutaharass. Things like that really matter.. and you'll never know even half of what a decent player would know about it. You guys have been improving, props to that, but you'll never become good casters. Solely for the fact that you learned StarCraft from watching StarCraft. You can't introduce new facts to people that just watch StarCraft regularily. You can't provide them with analysis. You're just like them. A viewer. I'm not saying casting is easy, not at all. I've done some casting myself and I'm fucking terrible. But I still think it'd take a fluent speaking top player not even a week of practice to catch up with 99% of the SC2GG commentators in skill, eventhough you've been doing this for ages. And every week after that he'll double his outperforming you. Hey, you guys cater to a different audience, I'm aware of that. But in my opinion the decent starcraft players aren't gonna make the switch over to watching you guys anytime soon. In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell. It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary. Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job. I don't think TL Attack is a fair point to judge anyone's personality or casting abilities. ! Well if they have 3 hours to joke around and talk about SC and they fail to say anything interesting more than once or twice the whole time I think that's pretty fair to judge.
Alright, I disagree since there is a lot more happening then you can see from the front end.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Are you talking about chill or the players?
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Calgary25977 Posts
Either way it doesn't matter. The players are trying to get familiar with a format they've never tried before and to play Brood War while talking. The commentators are trying to read multiple IRC channels, PMs and BNet while striking a balance between calling the play, asking questions and making jokes.
It would be stupid to judge someone's charisma based on that alone. It is stupid to do that.
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United States13896 Posts
look at any sport/esport and how those have been broadcasted for ages. there is always a play-by-play man who, relatively speaking, has very little experience in the actual sport itself or its inner workings (outside of spectating a large number of games). they are good at the call it as you see it type of banter, generally have good voices, and have enough charisma to comfortably move the broadcast along. Could the original poster be good at filling this niche? Sure.
Along the play-by-play man's side though is an expert in that sport (a former executive/coach/player etc). They give you the in-depth analysis that builds off the play by play. Can the original poster fill this niche? No, not unless he devotes a great deal of time into playing and learning the game through and through.
The problem in this thread though is that everyone expects an SC caster to be the total package - an expert in the field and a good play by play man - two roles that are usually fulfilled by two different people. Tasteless is the very very very rare example of a person that is qualified in both fields, that's why he is so good at what he does.
It's unfair to expect all commentators to fit into this mold though, as the nature of casting a sport properly, or a game like starcraft is one that usually includes 2 or more people. Through sheer lack of people casting games, starcraft casting eventually shifted to just one person carrying the load, and everyone got used to that. Now everyone expects each aspiring caster to be the "total package."
I think the irony of this situation is that if people could just let go of their "perfect caster" ideal, and let the experts work together with the more neophyte, enthusiastic play-by-play type people, casting SC games could REALLY flourish. Instead, people just disregard the first type of caster as useless if they aren't up to the "Tasteless standard." Whatever, that's my 10 cents.
To the OP: the best advice is usually to ignore all advice entirely and do whatever the hell you want to as long as you have the passion to carry through.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 02 2008 01:13 CholeraSC wrote:
...
I've been doing commentaries of Korean pro-games for about 6 months now. At first, when I started off, I was much less fluent in either casting or game analysis that I am now, and when I posted some links up at Teamliquid, I felt pretty much blown off.
...
Anyway, my point is this: I would not mind more involved in Teamliquid, and I have tried a few times from the start, but I feel that I wouldn't be given a fair chance at here of getting viewers or just some constructive feedback. I feel that my posting here (or Diggity, Klazart, and Moletrap doing so) would most likely result in an a scoff-fest at my playing skills, with many of the responders not even watching my videos before judging. Sure, there's mistakes. But us four have been providing consistent, comprehensive English casting of the OSL, MSL, and Proleague for several seasons now. That's hundreds of games that are no where else cast in a language that most foreign viewers can understand. We have received hundreds, if not thousands, of messages saying that they wouldn't have watched those games if not for our commentaries, of which I usually receive 3000 - 4000 viewers, and Klazart can receive up to 10,000+. These viewers add to eSports publicity in general, which benefits Teamliquid, Tasteless, the chances of eSports being broadcast in the US, and all other good things. So I do hope that the members here would at least give my videos another shot - take a look at the ones I posted, for example - and reconsider their views of my work. I would love to contribute more to your site if you let me without being pre-judged.
By the way, I love your casting, Tasteless! I have literally seen every game you have casted - from the old WCG casts with DJ Wheat, to the WWI games with Bunny, to every single GomTV Invitation/Classic game on the list. I appreciate very much that you have paved the way for later enthusiasts like us, and I hope we can meet sometime at WCG Cologne, to which I'll most likely go also.
Cheers - Cholera
I looked over the threads you posted and I don't think people here blew you off at all, I don't see where you're getting that. What I read was vastly positive responses and some constructive criticism (that you accepted graciously). I don't know where you're getting this impression that we're just going to attack you.
On October 02 2008 01:47 CholeraSC wrote:
My post has nothing to do with SC2GG.com, nor do I claim to represent them, or ask anyone here to to like them more, etc. All I'm talking about is new commentators and reactions to them here. Let's try to keep it on topic, and change the thread title back to what it was.
I don't see what's wrong with talking about SC2GG / TL relations. I think you guys provide valuable and unique content to the community, and that you guys should post more and post your commentaries more on TL.net. As Diggity said, there's always going to be haters everywhere so I don't see why it should stop you from posting here, especially if in my opinion nobody really attacked or blew you off in your threads in the first place.
I mean, you guys (Mole, Digg, Cholera, Vaul, etc) obviously all browse TL to some extent. If you don't, you're missing out on things like discussing progaming, features like shirts, FEs, all that fun stuff. Let's be honest, we don't provide commentary like you guys do over at SC2GG and you guys don't have the activity level / news that we have. Maybe its not reflected in that I don't post on your forums, but if I want to hear commentary I go check out one of your casts, all of whom I view quite positively (outside of Combat rofl).
I think the "backlash" from the whole Klaz incident is pretty stupid (on both sides) and you should give TL a chance and be more active here. Sure there'll be stupid haters but I think tougher skin is needed when you put yourself into the public as commentators do. When Vaul and Cholera and that other guy (i forget, Deus?) posted their commentaries here, the response was overwhelmingly positive.
Secluding yourselves from the largest and most interactive foreign BW community is not helping you or us, and just furthers a lot of misconceptions about each of our sites. Like TL is a bunch of elitist pricks who attack every newbie / commentator, and SC2GG are a bunch of newbs who can't take a bit of criticism. Stereotypes like this just aren't true and will be easily dispelled if people actually interact with each other.
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On October 02 2008 02:31 Kennigit wrote:
Are you talking about chill or the players?
The players, Chill is actually pretty good in those things, especially in more of a supporting techincal role where he can just pop in every minute or so and provide some insight.
I was responding to whoever said that if a top foreigner took up commentating they would surpass 99% of people in 2 weeks. Because I don't know if they are just burned out on the game but most of them seem incapable of getting excited about a game of starcraft, there's definately some expections out there that would probably be good at it like mondragon, incontrol. But just because you are good at something doesnt mean you would be good a commentating on it, theres a reason why only certain NFL players start commentating.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote:
look at any sport/esport and how those have been broadcasted for ages. there is always a play-by-play man who, relatively speaking, has very little experience in the actual sport itself or its inner workings (outside of spectating a large number of games). they are good at the call it as you see it type of banter, generally have good voices, and have enough charisma to comfortably move the broadcast along. Could the original poster be good at filling this niche? Sure.
Along the play-by-play man's side though is an expert in that sport (a former executive/coach/player etc). They give you the in-depth analysis that builds off the play by play. Can the original poster fill this niche? No, not unless he devotes a great deal of time into playing and learning the game through and through.
The problem in this thread though is that everyone expects an SC caster to be the total package - an expert in the field and a good play by play man - two roles that are usually fulfilled by two different people. Tasteless is the very very very rare example of a person that is qualified in both fields, that's why he is so good at what he does.
It's unfair to expect all commentators to fit into this mold though, as the nature of casting a sport, or a game like starcraft is one that usually includes 2 or more people. Through sheer lack of people casting games, starcraft casting eventually shifted to just one person carrying the load, and everyone got used to that. Now everyone expects each aspiring caster to be the "total package."
I think the irony of this situation is that if people could just let go of their "perfect caster" ideal, and let the experts work together with the more neophyte, enthusiastic play-by-play type people, casting SC games could REALLY flourish. Instead, people just disregard the first type of caster as useless if they aren't up to the "Tasteless standard." Whatever, that's my 10 cents.
To the OP: the best advice is usually to ignore all advice entirely and do whatever the hell you want to as long as you have the passion to carry through.
Yes this is what i said. The problem is sc2gg are only filling the play-by-play role.
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Belgium9947 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:20 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:05 RaGe wrote:On October 01 2008 14:25 WorldCommunist8 wrote:On September 30 2008 17:31 MyLostTemple wrote:
if you are not good at starcraft you shouldn't be a caster. Tasteless, I have a ton of respect for you and realize you are a pioneer, but this is where I disagree with you. Yes you need to have solid fundamental knowledge and be an intense student of the game, but there's a point where it splits. In commentating you only need to know it, where as in a game situation you need to be able to execute it. I'm a hobbyist for commentary. I'm not looking to get a paycheck out of it. I really won't say how good or bad I am, I don't enjoy making judgments of myself. I can't play a game of SC to save my life. I'll admit it. It's not because I don't know what to do or have no clue what's going on, it's execution. At that point where you need to do every thing simultaneously and pull of all the micro-management, my mind overloads and I shut down. I forget things. My economy goes to the shitter, my macro comes screeching to a halt, and I forget to continue scouting. I look like a blubbering idiot. Yet when I watch a pro game, I have a sound knowledge of what's going on. Yeah there's still the occasional "WTF just happened" moment, but you learn as you study. I'm not trying to promote or deter anyone from commentating. In my opinion, if you like it, do it. I know, however that I watched an entire season of proleague an MSL, an OSL and two leagues sponsored by GOM before I even strapped on the headset and recorded. I think that even if you are forever bound to D-, you can still learn the game solid from other commentators and just watching games en masse. Good luck to anyone who pursues this. Well this is where you are wrong. And this is what any good brood war player will tell you: Eventhough you learn a lot by watching high-level StarCraft, you will never really understand it unless you played at a decent level.You think the difference is small, but the difference is huge. HUGE. You've probably seen the standard TvZ a million times: 1 Rax FE vs 3hatch muta. You can probably 'predict' (yes quotation marks because its not through reasoning but through personal viewing experience) what's gonna happen next. But you know nothing of how the game evolved to that point, why that build is more suited to one map than to the other, how it affects your gameplan when you lose 4 scvs or 9scvs during mutaharass. Things like that really matter.. and you'll never know even half of what a decent player would know about it. You guys have been improving, props to that, but you'll never become good casters. Solely for the fact that you learned StarCraft from watching StarCraft. You can't introduce new facts to people that just watch StarCraft regularily. You can't provide them with analysis. You're just like them. A viewer. I'm not saying casting is easy, not at all. I've done some casting myself and I'm fucking terrible. But I still think it'd take a fluent speaking top player not even a week of practice to catch up with 99% of the SC2GG commentators in skill, eventhough you've been doing this for ages. And every week after that he'll double his outperforming you. Hey, you guys cater to a different audience, I'm aware of that. But in my opinion the decent starcraft players aren't gonna make the switch over to watching you guys anytime soon. In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell. It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary. Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job.
First of all, TL Attack is completely different from doing audio commentaries about pro matches. In TL Attack, there's literally no point at all as to give strategical commentary on the match. Nor is there any point on being all excited.
In the TSL it was pretty much proven that low experience, high skilled commentators like Chill and Artosis could manage transferring excitement through their voice.
I personally don't get why some people prefer excitement over content. When I watch SC2GG commentaries, I don't feel like I'm watching StarCraft. It could be any game, maybe even fucking Age of Empires. All they talk about is what they see and scream when 2 armies collide. And every now and then you say something that is just SO HORRIBLY WRONG THAT IT MAKES ME CRINGE.
There's a reason why Age of Empires isn't an eSport. And there's a reason why StarCraft is. The difference between the two, game depth, isn't something you can see in the SC2GG commentaries. If you could show StarCraft in its true form through your commentaries, you could have a shitload more fans. It could even be educational. It's too bad, I guess, none of you really played that much SC.
Please don't think this offensively. I still appreciate your efforts. Don't take it personal either, a lot of you might be cool guys. I can, for instance, get along really well with Vaul and think he's a cool guy. You'll never hear me say you should just stop doing commentaries (eventhough some of you are really spreading strategic misinformation), but you'll always hear me say you guys should be modest. Most of you already are, but some of you just don't realize it when you're incompetent (Hi Klazart!).
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On October 02 2008 02:29 Chill wrote:
Tasteless mentions a lot of high level ideas in his casts, actually. He just doesn't harp on them and mentions them in passing, but they are there.
Most times the most technical detail I hear is, "he's building a supply depot on the bottom of the CC to squeeze the SCV out nearer to his minerals", or something like "X is going for a fast reaver drop, which is a great counter to a T fast expand, if the T doesn't know about it, and they don't because they can't get the early Comsat...". These are things that can be, and are, in videos like mine. I do hear some high-level ideas, but like you say, they aren't emphasized, and I bet you don't watch his videos just for that 3 second snip of high-level analysis.
Anyway, I'm not asking TL to like my videos, or those of my friends, as much as Tasteless'. I understand that his style might be more energetic, his jokes funnier, and his active membership here more endearing. But I just ask that you don't judge our videos by the supposed lack of technical merit, since I do not think that is not the criteria you judge his professional casts by, either.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:36 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:31 Kennigit wrote:
Are you talking about chill or the players? The players, Chill is actually pretty good in those things, especially in more of a supporting techincal role where he can just pop in every minute or so and provide some insight. I was responding to whoever said that if a top foreigner took up commentating they would surpass 99% of people in 2 weeks. Because I don't know if they are just burned out on the game but most of them seem incapable of getting excited about a game of starcraft, there's definately some expections out there that would probably be good at it like mondragon, incontrol. But just because you are good at something doesnt mean you would be good a commentating on it, theres a reason why only certain NFL players start commentating.
Saying that all top bw players don't have personality is pretty ridiculous. Yes there's some that a quite bland but alot of the top americans would be awesome casters.
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On October 02 2008 02:35 Chill wrote:
Either way it doesn't matter. The players are trying to get familiar with a format they've never tried before and to play Brood War while talking. The commentators are trying to read multiple IRC channels, PMs and BNet while striking a balance between calling the play, asking questions and making jokes.
It would be stupid to judge someone's charisma based on that alone. It is stupid to do that.
Then why are certain players able to do it so easily and other struggle so badly?
If i remember right mondragon was able to beat nony while talking to you guys. I'm not asking for the guy to be doing a stand up routine while playing but is it honestly you think over 3 hours there isn't ample chance for someones personality to shine through? It's not like they are locked in a heated game for 3 hours straight.
And once again i wasn't talking about you.
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United States13896 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:37 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote:
look at any sport/esport and how those have been broadcasted for ages. there is always a play-by-play man who, relatively speaking, has very little experience in the actual sport itself or its inner workings (outside of spectating a large number of games). they are good at the call it as you see it type of banter, generally have good voices, and have enough charisma to comfortably move the broadcast along. Could the original poster be good at filling this niche? Sure.
Along the play-by-play man's side though is an expert in that sport (a former executive/coach/player etc). They give you the in-depth analysis that builds off the play by play. Can the original poster fill this niche? No, not unless he devotes a great deal of time into playing and learning the game through and through.
The problem in this thread though is that everyone expects an SC caster to be the total package - an expert in the field and a good play by play man - two roles that are usually fulfilled by two different people. Tasteless is the very very very rare example of a person that is qualified in both fields, that's why he is so good at what he does.
It's unfair to expect all commentators to fit into this mold though, as the nature of casting a sport, or a game like starcraft is one that usually includes 2 or more people. Through sheer lack of people casting games, starcraft casting eventually shifted to just one person carrying the load, and everyone got used to that. Now everyone expects each aspiring caster to be the "total package."
I think the irony of this situation is that if people could just let go of their "perfect caster" ideal, and let the experts work together with the more neophyte, enthusiastic play-by-play type people, casting SC games could REALLY flourish. Instead, people just disregard the first type of caster as useless if they aren't up to the "Tasteless standard." Whatever, that's my 10 cents.
To the OP: the best advice is usually to ignore all advice entirely and do whatever the hell you want to as long as you have the passion to carry through. Yes this is what i said. The problem is sc2gg are only filling the play-by-play role.
That's true, because not a lot of people who would fulfill the "expert in-the-field" role have the time or the inclination to join forces with the people doing the play-by-play. It's nobody's fault really, just a shame.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:41 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:35 Chill wrote:
Either way it doesn't matter. The players are trying to get familiar with a format they've never tried before and to play Brood War while talking. The commentators are trying to read multiple IRC channels, PMs and BNet while striking a balance between calling the play, asking questions and making jokes.
It would be stupid to judge someone's charisma based on that alone. It is stupid to do that. Then why are certain players able to do it so easily and other struggle so badly? If i remember right mondragon was able to beat nony while talking to you guys. I'm not asking for the guy to be doing a stand up routine while playing but is it honestly you think over 3 hours there isn't ample chance for someones personality to shine through? It's not like they are locked in a heated game for 3 hours straight. And once again i wasn't talking about you.
Have you ever tried to play and talk 0_0....it's quite challenging. You are derailing this thread entirely - its not about people showing personality while playing, its about being a good caster in general.
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On October 02 2008 02:39 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:36 lgdDante wrote:On October 02 2008 02:31 Kennigit wrote:
Are you talking about chill or the players? The players, Chill is actually pretty good in those things, especially in more of a supporting techincal role where he can just pop in every minute or so and provide some insight. I was responding to whoever said that if a top foreigner took up commentating they would surpass 99% of people in 2 weeks. Because I don't know if they are just burned out on the game but most of them seem incapable of getting excited about a game of starcraft, there's definately some expections out there that would probably be good at it like mondragon, incontrol. But just because you are good at something doesnt mean you would be good a commentating on it, theres a reason why only certain NFL players start commentating. Saying that all top bw players don't have personality is pretty ridiculous. Yes there's some that a quite bland but alot of the top americans would be awesome casters.
Didn't i say that in my post? Someone blatantly said that any top player given 2 weeks would surpass 99% of the commentators around now. Skills in commentary isn't directly related to skill, and that was my point. I'm not on some crusade to say all BW players are boring drones, I even pointed out 2 players who I'd love to listen to, I'm saying that commentary is a completely different skill all together, and while skill and experience in the game is a big part, so are the other things i mentioned such as charsima, personality etc.
Remember we are talking about who would be the best caster, not who could make the best FPVod, obviously TL is at one extreme of the audience spectrum in the starcraft community, they would probably like more techincal commentary, but that doesn't mean those people are the best in general.
You need a mix of those 2 things to be a great commentator, that was my point.
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Zurich15325 Posts
You guys should all read very carefully what RaGe said, both his posts explain everything that has been brought up in this thread.
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"But us four, along with other commentators at sc2gg.com, have been providing consistent, comprehensive English casting of the OSL, MSL, and Proleague for several seasons now. That's hundreds of games that are no where else cast in a language that most foreign viewers can understand. We have received hundreds, if not thousands, of messages saying that those games wouldn't be watched if not for our commentaries. This adds to the eSports scene in general, which benefits Teamliquid, Tasteless, the chances of eSports being broadcast in the US, and all other good things."
I think this is an important point. Just because a caster isn't considered the 'best', or doesn't appeal to the 'best players', doesn't mean it's not worth it, or some sort of sin to starcraft, or something. I'm a terrible terrible player and a casual fan, and my favourite commentators are tasteless and artosis (looking forward to blizzcon...), but when I look for a game on youtube I'm delighted when I find that it's been commentated by one of the sc2gg guys. For myself, and many others, it's very much appreciated, whether or not it's at the same level as people who are getting paid for their work.
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Braavos36374 Posts
I think we're slacking on the TL Attack casting preparation, and this is something that will be worked on and fixed in the future. I think Rage and Chill have great, dynamic personalities but frankly we're all a bit burned out by the work we have to do organizing everything else (like shirts, news, tsl, etc) and they sort of just wing the casting. If we're going to make TL Attack professional we have to really step up how we prepare questions and interact with the players. Simply having them there doesn't cut it. Chill, Rage, and whoever else casts knows this and we're going to be better in the future. Remember, they don't just cast and do nothing else, they have a lot of responsibilities other than that.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
See this is where TL gets labeled as elitist or a niche wanting and wanting a more technical aspect. I don't this this is true at all - tasteless has repeatedly said that his casts right now are cattering to a more general audience and Teamliquid members still enjoy them. Why? Because the TL mantra has always been to only present material of the highest quality possible.
Chill records tons of zerg commentaries but only releases 1 or 2 because he has set a standard for himself. Yes sc2gg has provided consistent coverage but is quantity better than quality. I would say absolutely not. I would rather see maybe 10 commentaries per season that blew me away rather than every single match of every set cast at a mediocre level.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:39 CholeraSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:29 Chill wrote:
Tasteless mentions a lot of high level ideas in his casts, actually. He just doesn't harp on them and mentions them in passing, but they are there. Most times the most technical detail I hear is, "he's building a supply depot on the bottom of the CC to squeeze the SCV out nearer to his minerals", or something like "X is going for a fast reaver drop, which is a great counter to a T fast expand, if the T doesn't know about it, and they don't because they can't get the early Comsat...". These are things that can be, and are, in videos like mine. I do hear some high-level ideas, but like you say, they aren't emphasized, and I bet you don't watch his videos just for that 3 second snip of high-level analysis. Anyway, I'm not asking TL to like my videos, or those of my friends, as much as Tasteless'. I understand that his style might be more energetic, his jokes funnier, and his active membership here more endearing. But I just ask that you don't judge our videos by the supposed lack of technical merit, since I do not think that is not the criteria you judge his professional casts by, either.
That's all I judge on. Artosis = most technical = best; Tasteless = close second, everyone else = zero.
That's what I've always said. O_O
Edit: Maybe that's the royal you? :D
Edit2: Ugh God. Maybe zero isn't the right word but like... Given the choice of listening to an English commentary or Korean, I have no preference (except for Diggity). They (other than Diggity) add nothing to the experience for me, so the choice is between listening to commentary I don't fully understand, or commentary I don't care about.
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On October 02 2008 02:59 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:39 CholeraSC wrote:On October 02 2008 02:29 Chill wrote:
Tasteless mentions a lot of high level ideas in his casts, actually. He just doesn't harp on them and mentions them in passing, but they are there. Most times the most technical detail I hear is, "he's building a supply depot on the bottom of the CC to squeeze the SCV out nearer to his minerals", or something like "X is going for a fast reaver drop, which is a great counter to a T fast expand, if the T doesn't know about it, and they don't because they can't get the early Comsat...". These are things that can be, and are, in videos like mine. I do hear some high-level ideas, but like you say, they aren't emphasized, and I bet you don't watch his videos just for that 3 second snip of high-level analysis. Anyway, I'm not asking TL to like my videos, or those of my friends, as much as Tasteless'. I understand that his style might be more energetic, his jokes funnier, and his active membership here more endearing. But I just ask that you don't judge our videos by the supposed lack of technical merit, since I do not think that is not the criteria you judge his professional casts by, either. That's all I judge on. Artosis = most technical = best; Tasteless = close second, everyone else = zero. That's what I've always said. O_O Edit: Maybe that's the royal you? :D
It is the plural you, ustedes. But do watch the videos I did with Louder, especially games 2 and 3, to see some pretty darn technical videos.
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"Oh yeah, Artosis sure is the best, I mean, look at this probe, it won't die you know"
I actually hear him while I type that haha
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 02 2008 03:04 CholeraSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 02:59 Chill wrote:On October 02 2008 02:39 CholeraSC wrote:On October 02 2008 02:29 Chill wrote:
Tasteless mentions a lot of high level ideas in his casts, actually. He just doesn't harp on them and mentions them in passing, but they are there. Most times the most technical detail I hear is, "he's building a supply depot on the bottom of the CC to squeeze the SCV out nearer to his minerals", or something like "X is going for a fast reaver drop, which is a great counter to a T fast expand, if the T doesn't know about it, and they don't because they can't get the early Comsat...". These are things that can be, and are, in videos like mine. I do hear some high-level ideas, but like you say, they aren't emphasized, and I bet you don't watch his videos just for that 3 second snip of high-level analysis. Anyway, I'm not asking TL to like my videos, or those of my friends, as much as Tasteless'. I understand that his style might be more energetic, his jokes funnier, and his active membership here more endearing. But I just ask that you don't judge our videos by the supposed lack of technical merit, since I do not think that is not the criteria you judge his professional casts by, either. That's all I judge on. Artosis = most technical = best; Tasteless = close second, everyone else = zero. That's what I've always said. O_O Edit: Maybe that's the royal you? :D It is the plural you, ustedes. But do watch the videos I did with Louder, especially games 2 and 3, to see some pretty darn technical videos.
For the sake of a fully informed discussion, I will. It should also be noted Louder is a retard so that will probably weigh in on my enjoyment.
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Braavos36374 Posts
The one side of commentating (the voice, tone, pace, charisma, personality, etc) is extremely difficult to learn and you get small gains only through large amounts of practice. You can noticeably see the improvement in a lot of the SC2GG guy's styles.
Also, I think Rage's rhetoric is a bit overstated but true too. I'm not going to toot my own horn but I think my strategical understanding of all the non mirror matches (non TvT PvP ZvZ) is pretty solid. I don't play at a B level at all. But at the same time, a lot of my knowledge was really enhanced by playing and learning from people like Chill. I'm not great at BW but I'm not horrible either, I'd say I'm roughly C level. You can read the editorials I've written in the TLFE section, and I think I've proven in there and in that one cast we did for Proleague finals to at least be competent strategy wise. So I disagree a bit, I think you don't have to be a great player, but at least a decent and thoughtful one.
To be honest I think this whole "strategical knowledge" divide really can be solved quickly and painlessly by just having open communication between people who watch progaming. Having this big divide between "good players" and "broader audience" is really silly. You can appeal to both camps pretty well just by having a good balance.
Especially if you have dual casters in a VOD, like Chill and Artosis for TSL. I think they appealed well to all audiences.
Again I'll just pitch that you guys should post your commentaries and participate more on TL and especially don't get offended by a few idiots. I think this helps both you guys in that you get a lot more feedback and participation from our community and it helps us in that it generates interest and discussion on something (english casting) that we don't provide here.
The relationship between our sites doesn't have to be so... adversarial. If you want some stickied dedicated threads to commentaries we can do that, if you want to post stuff in blogs we can do that. I can't imagine you're satisfied with the youtube comments and the relatively low activity level on the SC2GG forums. Perhaps our communities interacting more we can both have more users.
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United States13896 Posts
On October 02 2008 03:12 Hot_Bid wrote:
The one side of commentating (the voice, tone, pace, charisma, personality, etc) is extremely difficult to learn and you get small gains only through large amounts of practice. You can noticeably see the improvement in a lot of the SC2GG guy's styles.
Also, I think Rage's rhetoric is a bit overstated but true too. I'm not going to toot my own horn but I think my strategical understanding of all the non mirror matches (non TvT PvP ZvZ) is pretty solid. I don't play at a B level at all. But at the same time, a lot of my knowledge was really enhanced by playing and learning from people like Chill.
To be honest I think this whole "strategical knowledge" divide really can be solved quickly and painlessly by just having open communication between people who watch progaming. Having this big divide between "good players" and "broader audience" is really silly. You can appeal to both camps pretty well just by having a good balance.
Especially if you have dual casters in a VOD, like Chill and Artosis for TSL. I think they appealed well to all audiences.
Again I'll just pitch that you guys should post your commentaries and participate more on TL and especially don't get offended by a few idiots. I think this helps both you guys in that you get a lot more feedback and participation from our community and it helps us in that it generates interest and discussion on something (english casting) that we don't provide here.
The relationship between our sites doesn't have to be so... adversarial. If you want some stickied dedicated threads to commentaries we can do that, if you want to post stuff in blogs we can do that. I can't imagine you're satisfied with the youtube comments and the relatively low activity level on the SC2GG forums. Perhaps our communities interacting more we can both have more users.
Eloquently stated Hot_Bid. In the past it's been the a vocal few who really beat down the production of more/better commentaries. As someone who frequents both sites often, I'm glad to see this.
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On October 02 2008 03:12 Hot_Bid wrote:
The one side of commentating (the voice, tone, pace, charisma, personality, etc) is extremely difficult to learn and you get small gains only through large amounts of practice. You can noticeably see the improvement in a lot of the SC2GG guy's styles.
Also, I think Rage's rhetoric is a bit overstated but true too. I'm not going to toot my own horn but I think my strategical understanding of all the non mirror matches (non TvT PvP ZvZ) is pretty solid. I don't play at a B level at all. But at the same time, a lot of my knowledge was really enhanced by playing and learning from people like Chill.
To be honest I think this whole "strategical knowledge" divide really can be solved quickly and painlessly by just having open communication between people who watch progaming. Having this big divide between "good players" and "broader audience" is really silly. You can appeal to both camps pretty well just by having a good balance.
Especially if you have dual casters in a VOD, like Chill and Artosis for TSL. I think they appealed well to all audiences.
Again I'll just pitch that you guys should post your commentaries and participate more on TL and especially don't get offended by a few idiots. I think this helps both you guys in that you get a lot more feedback and participation from our community and it helps us in that it generates interest and discussion on something (english casting) that we don't provide here.
The relationship between our sites doesn't have to be so... adversarial. If you want some stickied dedicated threads to commentaries we can do that, if you want to post stuff in blogs we can do that. I can't imagine you're satisfied with the youtube comments and the relatively low activity level on the SC2GG forums. Perhaps our communities interacting more we can both have more users.
Thank you for this post. I'll send it over to some of the other head staff at sc2gg.com. I've always thought it'd be a good idea for these two sites to work together rather than compete, to be honest, and that's part of my motivation in posting here. I have not participated in any of the small flamewars on either site, and I don't plan to.
By the way, you're right about my not having personally been "blown off" in the sense of receiving no responses or feedback. I did post a few games up a long time ago and got a few comments, of which most were positive. I suppose there just isn't as big of a venue to post English commentated videos here, which I would hope could change.
By the way, for the OP - I'm in charge of helping out/organizing new commentators at SC2GG.com (like Ahzz, for example), so PM me here or there with any technical questions or whatever and I can try to help.
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Braavos36374 Posts
I think the elitist attitude of TL is both an positive and a negative.
The community is extremely close knit and is the closest thing to having real people cheer next to you on the couch for progaming matches. After you get to a few thousand posts and a year on the forums, there's a level of comfort and fun with other members that is really different, whether on Battle.net, IRC, Ventrilo, or just on the forums.
However, being a newbie isn't easy here. You get made fun of sometimes, you don't get all the inside jokes or know the customs, and the atmosphere can seem intimidating or even discouraging. But it really is worth it once you stay and get to know everyone.
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I agree with if you're not good at starcraft you shouldn't cast. If you don't understand something you shouldn't pretend you do and talk non stop about it.
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On October 02 2008 02:21 FConnectionUK wrote:
Knowing what you're saying and blurting out what you're thinking makes the biggest difference in the world. And yes, we can also see what's going on in the game as well as you can.
You may provide us with some excitement, to say the least, but what else? Oh, the big factor: We get to hear it in English. But I will still never watch your commentating. Why should I? I can get the same excitement hearing the beasty voice of "mahhhhhhhhhhhk".
The sole purpose of doing the subtitle thread was because I wanted everyone to see the insight of the Korean games. Not seeing what's happening, but understanding what's happening allows us to appreciate the game that much more.
This is my final answer, and you can't deny it; you have to have pretty darn good understanding of the game. IMO, for a foreigner to prove this, you need at least very high ranking in ICCUPs. So what's your iccup ranking? (I think this is Tastee's point too)
It's true. Korean commentators aren't good at playing starcraft at all, but they have as much as insight as the top tier(!) progamers.
There was a popular starcraft show called StarBrains. Two players play as one team, one who directs and plans, and the other just follows order and macro. Caster Um (the fat one with MAHHHHHK) was the brain and Luxury(before he was good, Yarn was far more superior/famous at this time) was the player playing against Caster Kim (Carrier Kim) with Chalreng. ZvP.
Caster Um opened with Muta opening and later switched to Hydra Lurkers. While Caster Kim defended the harrass making few archons then proceeded to collect some high templar. At the MOST PERFECT timing after building 298374987 hydras/lurks, caster Um orders Lux, "Let's build 6 mutas right about now. I don't understand why progamers dont do this, but this is such powerful strategy." Yes, he created 6 Mutas with this sole purpose: to snipe all the newly made templars. This was unthinkable even for pros at that time. Once they switched to hydra lurk, no one thought of reusing the mutas(well... only for all-in). But ever since caster Um introduced this strat, every pro zerg on planet abused this strat, sniping templars because going in with mass hydra lurk army.
At this point, you're going to say 'see? Iccup ranking doesn't mean everything'. You're right. But unless you're korean, you still have to show me your ICCUP ranking. Otherwise, I'm not buying it.
You can have very good commentating, I do not know. But no matter what, unless you either have very high iccup ranking, or you are a korean, don't waste your time. No matter how good your commentating will be, unless backed up by iccup ranking, no one will be interested.
And yes, I consider Tastee as a pure-bred Korean.
All my posts, everyone hates it with a passion. lol... <3 FBH /activate Flameproofx2
Umm, arent half of theese commentators ex-progamers or ex-coaches? IIRC half of them were once progamers or involved with the pro scene at one point, thats where the game knowledge comes from.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Not all of them are ex-progamers.
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Everyone underestimates the skill difference between the iccup ranks. The skill difference that gives one a more complete understanding of what they're seeing. I know this because when I was D, I thought I could imagine what D+ and C or B would feel like. I completely underestimated it. When I reached C-, I thought I could more clearly see what the higher ranks of C+ and B- would look like. Once again, I was entirely caught off guard by the tremendous depth of knowledge that was required to obtain those ranks. (As any race besides Protoss... ^^)
You just don't see it until you reach it, and you look down, and you see how far you've come. You think you can see the top, but the cliffs reveal a great distance more to go.
When your SCV is scouting the enemy base, it looks very simple to a lower rank player. But to reach higher ranks, you really have to learn how important that scout is. Sure, you can, by association and experience, explain to me that this SCV scout is very important, but you can't tell me, or any of your viewers, what specifically it is looking for. Counting pylons, probecuts, how many eggs does he use and when? You just don't know from a players perspective, how much this scout has seen, what value the information has, or how the Terran should or might adapt. Too many times have I seen english commentaries totally glaze over the really obvious things. A shuttle dropping DT's.
You're thinking (and commentating,) "How much damage will this drop do?!" Whereas the experienced ladder players clearly see the arb tech and are wondering how many scans he can waste for the Terran.
Or when Muta's are raping a Terran's natural, all the turrets are dead at the natural. The Terran moves his army out into the middle of the map. I was watching the Tasteless cast and even he missed the obvious answer. He thought it was just a bad decision on the Terran's part, but instead he was liberating his natural by proxy, by threatening something of more value to the Zerg. Zerg retreated, Terran replaced turrets in his natural, and though he lost his mnm's in the middle of the map, his natural was back up, and he took out 2 or 3 muts at the same time. Tasteless ended up realizing that and explaining it, whereas I'm certain a D level commentator would not have.
That's why game knowledge and ability are so important. I know that I will miss many important aspects that Artosis or Tasteless will be able to explain and articulate. Whereas, when I'm listening to the lower rank casts... I just have no confidence that any deep level thought is going into it. And though you can hear my examples and say "I woulda picked up on that," in reality, you don't. You're not bad commentators, you just don't have the skill and game knowledge to give any real deep insight.
The thing is. If you listen to Artosis and Chill commentaries, even introductory players can enjoy and understand a lot of what's being said. While at the same time, competitive players enjoy it immensely aswell. To be a truly good commentator, you have to be able to do both. Sure, for people who have never played SC, or people who just want a voice to listen to, those commentaries are fine. But in terms of professional commentating or dreams of making it big.. To give real, insightful commentary, you have to have experience behind that screen, defending that DT or Muta harass, and knowing everything that's going on in their heads.
I'm certain there's tons that goes over my head. That's why I love Artosis and Tasteless. I trust them to give me real insight because they've been there. Whereas, I've already been an ignorant observer who can see all the superficial developments of a pro SC game. I don't need to hear those thoughts again.
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I myself am not a very good SC player, no pretenses there, but more than anything the thing I enjoy most about watching sc is the drama, the competitiveness, and amazing skills of the players, and I think that if you want to appeal to a wider audience then those things should take precedence over, for example, certain technical aspects. I'm not saying that technical aspects are unimportant, but really the truth is I know I'll never be as good as any of the pros even if I was taught all the tricks and the exact build orders through the videos. It's the beauty of sc that keeps me coming back, and if a commentator can capture that then they're doing a fine job in my book.
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If you seriously want to learn strategy, don't watch commentary, watch a replay. It's impossible to cover every aspect of the game in a commentary. The limitations of commentaries are so clear, replays are better for learning strategies.
If you want entertainment, watch a commentary. 
Thought I'd just throw my thoughts out there
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On October 02 2008 06:23 Nintu wrote:
Everyone underestimates the skill difference between the iccup ranks. The skill difference that gives one a more complete understanding of what they're seeing. I know this because when I was D, I thought I could imagine what D+ and C or B would feel like. I completely underestimated it. When I reached C-, I thought I could more clearly see what the higher ranks of C+ and B- would look like. Once again, I was entirely caught off guard by the tremendous depth of knowledge that was required to obtain those ranks. (As any race besides Protoss... ^^)
You just don't see it until you reach it, and you look down, and you see how far you've come. You think you can see the top, but the cliffs reveal a great distance more to go.
When your SCV is scouting the enemy base, it looks very simple to a lower rank player. But to reach higher ranks, you really have to learn how important that scout is. Sure, you can, by association and experience, explain to me that this SCV scout is very important, but you can't tell me, or any of your viewers, what specifically it is looking for. Counting pylons, probecuts, how many eggs does he use and when? You just don't know from a players perspective, how much this scout has seen, what value the information has, or how the Terran should or might adapt. Too many times have I seen english commentaries totally glaze over the really obvious things. A shuttle dropping DT's.
You're thinking (and commentating,) "How much damage will this drop do?!" Whereas the experienced ladder players clearly see the arb tech and are wondering how many scans he can waste for the Terran.
Or when Muta's are raping a Terran's natural, all the turrets are dead at the natural. The Terran moves his army out into the middle of the map. I was watching the Tasteless cast and even he missed the obvious answer. He thought it was just a bad decision on the Terran's part, but instead he was liberating his natural by proxy, by threatening something of more value to the Zerg. Zerg retreated, Terran replaced turrets in his natural, and though he lost his mnm's in the middle of the map, his natural was back up, and he took out 2 or 3 muts at the same time. Tasteless ended up realizing that and explaining it, whereas I'm certain a D level commentator would not have.
That's why game knowledge and ability are so important. I know that I will miss many important aspects that Artosis or Tasteless will be able to explain and articulate. Whereas, when I'm listening to the lower rank casts... I just have no confidence that any deep level thought is going into it. And though you can hear my examples and say "I woulda picked up on that," in reality, you don't. You're not bad commentators, you just don't have the skill and game knowledge to give any real deep insight.
The thing is. If you listen to Artosis and Chill commentaries, even introductory players can enjoy and understand a lot of what's being said. While at the same time, competitive players enjoy it immensely aswell. To be a truly good commentator, you have to be able to do both. Sure, for people who have never played SC, or people who just want a voice to listen to, those commentaries are fine. But in terms of professional commentating or dreams of making it big.. To give real, insightful commentary, you have to have experience behind that screen, defending that DT or Muta harass, and knowing everything that's going on in their heads.
I'm certain there's tons that goes over my head. That's why I love Artosis and Tasteless. I trust them to give me real insight because they've been there. Whereas, I've already been an ignorant observer who can see all the superficial developments of a pro SC game. I don't need to hear those thoughts again.
You bring up very good points here. I will admit, I would not know these things. I would love to, and I wish there was some way people outside of playing that these things could be brought out and taught to other players who don't have the ability to play at higher levels, but for now there isn't.
I saw one post mention quality over quantity. In essence your telling me you'd rather watch 1 game from the NFL season, even if it isn't the Super Bowl, because it has top notch casting, then watch all 20 games a team might play. Which is ridiculous. If we only released quality casts, you think even Tasteless would be where he is today? He even pointed out a game where he swapped two TvTers names. You make mistakes, you learn from them, and that's where the mettle of someone is tested. Do they pack it in and call it a career after one bad game? Or do they make the decision to push on, not let that one sit in the back of their head and give it another go? I have a quote I got from a high school cross country coach after a really bad race I ran: "Only an idiot leads a perfect life". In essence it's true, because they learn nothing.
I am not going to add any more on why I commentate or why people should, the ideals have been beaten into the ground at this point. I just know if you love something, it doesn't matter who approves, just do it.
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While I am appreciative of this conciliatory tone, and I apologize ahead of time for going against what could very well be a gesture of good faith, I have to point out that it's a bit ridiculous for Hot Bid to be claiming that TL isn't malicious towards amateur casters. I mean, look at this thread for instance. A guy posts saying he wants to do commentary. What happens first and foremost? People start telling him he isn't any good and so he shouldn't even try. And don't give me the line about how you can't control what your users say, because there are always TL staff joining in. Seriously, if you don't believe me read back through all the responses in this thread. If you don't believe me, go back to 95% of threads about commentators that have been closed because they turned into flame fests.
Now, I'm not trying to start a fight, here. I just wanted to make the point that I don't think it's fair to be acting like TL loves commentators and where did we all get this crazy idea it doesn't. And hell, TL can hate commentators all it wants; that's its prerogative. But there seems to be some question as to why commentators don't participate in TL, and I am attempting to give a legitimate answer. When the culture on TL is such that random people with 20 posts are making fun of amateur commentators that they have never listened to because that's what they see on the forums.. when someone argues with everything I say simply because of who I am and then they get promoted to staff.. when appreciation threads become flame threads and get closed down... that's why I don't post here any more.
Granted, yes, I come here because of the news and to be completely honest I would be lost without TLPD. But I have learned from experience that participating doesn't do me much good.
That said, I am encouraged that this thread has remained relatively civil. I hope you are sincere about wanting to be more accepting.
Anyway... for people who think that you have to be able to play a game well in order to analyze it, I wanted to point out a couple guys I heard about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Costas : "failed personally at any type of organized athletics" ... "Bob Costas has won multiple National Sportcaster of the Year awards (from the National Sportcaster and Sportswriter Association) and nearly 20 Emmy Awards for outstanding sports announcing."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Cosell author of "I Never Played the Game" who also happened to revolutionize Football commentary and is probably the guy yelling during any historically famous boxing match you've ever seen.
The first point is... yes, being good at something helps you be a better announcer for it. But even today like 95% of sports casting does not have to do with that upper echelon of understanding. There are many more things that are important for being a successful caster. Because like it or not (and I guess most here clearly don't), a successful caster has to be entertaining to the masses. Being a good player HELPS but is not the basis. "Cosell was openly contemptuous of ex-athletes appointed to prominent sportscasting roles solely on account of their playing fame."
Keep in mind that I am not trying to convince anyone here they should magically start liking amateur commentators. You don't have to listen to it unless it is high level if you don't want to. But you have to admit that that's what MOST people want, and there is no denying that without the masses, any sport is dead. I mean seriously, do you think football, for example, would be one of the most successful spectator sports ever if the only people who watched it were pro football players.
The second point is.... it is preposterous to say that you can't think about something and analyze it without being able to do it. A good example is that the best political analysts are not politicians. The best NARC's don't go out and deal drugs so they can understand the scene better, they study it academically. Doing something well IS ONE WAY to gain an understanding of it, and is, I admit, probably the best way. But don't underestimate the power of study, analysis, consultation, etc. Hot Bid even said he isn't pro but feels comfortable writing articles that analyze pro starcraft. How is talking about it on youtube different?
I have already admitted in this thread that when I first started I sucked at analysis. But I have watched, pondered, and scrutinized several hundred games, read many articles, listened to top level interviews and analysis in the last year. You don't think I know anything more about the game from that? I don't even want to get started in any discussion of my own skill level. I bring up the point on principle.
Please take up any personal disagreements with me in PMs.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 02 2008 10:09 f10esqftw wrote:
While I am appreciative of this conciliatory tone, and I apologize ahead of time for going against what could very well be a gesture of good faith, I have to point out that it's a bit ridiculous for Hot Bid to be claiming that TL isn't malicious towards amateur casters. I mean, look at this thread for instance. A guy posts saying he wants to do commentary. What happens first and foremost? People start telling him he isn't any good and so he shouldn't even try. And don't give me the line about how you can't control what your users say, because there are always TL staff joining in. Seriously, if you don't believe me read back through all the responses in this thread. If you don't believe me, go back to 95% of threads about commentators that have been closed because they turned into flame fests.
Now, I'm not trying to start a fight, here. I just wanted to make the point that I don't think it's fair to be acting like TL loves commentators and where did we all get this crazy idea it doesn't. And hell, TL can hate commentators all it wants; that's its prerogative. But there seems to be some question as to why commentators don't participate in TL, and I am attempting to give a legitimate answer. When the culture on TL is such that random people with 20 posts are making fun of amateur commentators that they have never listened to because that's what they see on the forums.. when someone argues with everything I say simply because of who I am and then they get promoted to staff.. when appreciation threads become flame threads and get closed down... that's why I don't post here any more.
Granted, yes, I come here because of the news and to be completely honest I would be lost without TLPD. But I have learned from experience that participating doesn't do me much good.
That said, I am encouraged that this thread has remained relatively civil. I hope you are sincere about wanting to be more accepting.
Compromise works both ways. I'm not being conciliatory in the sense that I think our users and our mods are completely in the wrong. I think a lot of what turned some of SC2GGs commentators off to TL is that our forum users speak their mind and are honest, and frankly some commentators are overly sensitive to any sort of criticism. I think having thicker skin and being able to not take comments so personally is something that anyone that posts anything on TL should learn.
We don't "hate commentators" because frankly we loved Tasteless, Artosis, and Chill, and some of SC2GG's like Vaul and Cholera received overwhelmingly positive feedback when they posted here. Your post is full of old bias that I was trying to say should be forgotten, but if you can't get over old grudges its your choice not to participate in our community. Too bad then, for both sides.
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Yes. Look, I started commentating when there was no commentating at all; Tasteless only did certain events and there was nothing else. The age of RWA was over and all of that. When I started commentating and got feedback at Teamliquid I felt very angry and that they were all douchebags. Now, if I look back, I see that I got a lot of very good constructive criticism and that their judgments were justified. I also got a lot of support. Teamliquid is also honest and speaks the truth. As well, they like doing things for the benefit of the community. When some people founded that they didn't like my commentary, they realized that they could get a better commentator who would be as consistent as me to pump out lots of VODs. Thus, yubee's commentary contest was made and the only two participants were me and Klazart. Nowadays I feel I am much more qualified for commentaries than I was as a D+ Zerg, and the comments I've been getting have been much more positive with less criticism. There is definitely a correlation between skill and overall viewer appreciation; they'll have more faith in you as a good player and also learn many interesting aspects of the game. I'm going on a tangent here but that's the basic story. I have no idea where you think that TL.net hates commentators. TL really had tons of positive feedback to all these commentators: Deus, Cholera, Vaul, me, Klazart, you and diggity, and then obviously the TLA/TSL commentators and Artosis/Tasteless. Look, you may think that you were harshly criticized here but if you'd only taken the time to stay a part of the community you could realize that TL.net is not random flaming. It took me half a year to become appreciative of TL.net and I really love it here now. Hot_Bid's analysis is totally correct and the remark about oversensitive commentators is definitely true as well.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 02 2008 10:09 f10esqftw wrote:
What happens first and foremost? People start telling him he isn't any good and so he shouldn't even try. And don't give me the line about how you can't control what your users say, because there are always TL staff joining in.
Actually the first thing that happened was I turned him to SC2GG and suggested you are better for commentaries. But thanks for skipping right over that point. I only "joined in" when he said he doesn't play this game, and has only watched some Tasteless VODs, and I think that's fair. Sorry for not being Mr. Encourager, but it's ridiculous in my eyes.
Picture someone who's watched someone play the guitar, and they want to know how to host Youtube videos of them playing (which they've never actually done themself). Wouldn't you make a comment about how no one wants to see that? How they should practice before putting the videos up?
The second point is.... it is preposterous to say that you can't think about something and analyze it without being able to do it.
No one is saying it's impossible; we're saying 99.99999999% of commentators have not spent enough time with the game, watching or analyzing it, to understand any of the mindgames or deeper thought behind the strategy.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
nintu's post above is excellent, please read it if you just skipped over it
what are you trying to accomplish, moletrap? your post is reeks of self-righteousness and bitterness. yes there are assholes on every forum, but do you really think our posters leave negative comments simply because we're just shitty, mean-spirited people? it's insulting to us to just assume the worst, and a failing for yourselves to take it so personally because fuck, mitch hedberg once faced silent crowds and daft punk was once written off as a failure of a band. you can't expect XOXOs after everything that's posted.
here's where i think the difference is in how you view your commentaries, and how many posters here view them. i believe that when you put out a commentary, it doesn't automatically mean you're doing a favor for the community; there's no reason to hold grudges or feel betrayed if people don't enjoy it. you're putting yourself up as the representative of the game, and tl members who are notorious for being avid starcraft fans are incredibly dismayed when it's not being portrayed correctly. we see it as your duty if you respect the game and this forum (i can't imagine anyone not at least understanding why this site holds such prestige) to make your commentaries as knowledgeable as possible.
i don't mean to sound condescending here, i really don't - many of you take criticism as direct attacks and just disappear to cater to people not versed in the game. this is fine, they obviously really enjoy it and it's quite a feat that you manage to bring new fans to this dying game. you celebrate your success and just never feel the need to return, and it's a pity because your commentaries still have the same errors and our communities stay split.
to be fair i know that there are very many blunt and harsh responses in these threads. it also sucks and seems unbelievable that you need years and years of playing to be able to reach solid understanding, but god that's just the nature of the game. i just don't understand how so many people can just blow off what so many tl members say about the importance of skill for a commentator - what motive do we have in discouraging others? we are definitely a quality forum known to have many good players and walking databases, and it's a slap in the face when the things we say are just blindly ignored. do you realize how humbling it was for me to finally reach a very respectable rank on iccup, just so that i could fully realize how little of the game i understood? and yet the things that i find wrong in your commentaries are just so basic and elementary!
acting victimized to prove an inane point like 'participating doesn't do [anyone] any good' only hurts everybody. at this point in starcraft we can all agree it's best if the fanbase is organized and close, and how we'll achieve that, whether through joint commentating practice or increased interaction/feedback, will require a much better attitude than you one you are exhibiting.
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I'll stray from the vein everyone's been on and just give you some straight up suggestions.
If you're gonna do commentaries, commentate replays that are of players who are at your level, or maybe even your own games. FP commentaries are kind of interesting at any level, and you'll learn a lot more about StarCraft that way than by guessing constantly about players who are much, much better than you.
Bascially: If on your best day and most focused moments you couldn't replicate what you're claiming the players are thinking... Don't commentate those games.
TL has a huge focus on pro-gaming, but it doesn't mean you can't commentate amateur/hobbiest games instead. Be humble, know yourself, and don't get angry at people who don't like your work. It's up to you and friends to motivate you when you're still learning. Not the general audience.
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Austin10831 Posts
moletrap i think your comparisons to cosell and costas are incorrect. the situations are too disparate.
instead, can you imagine a person who isn't good at chess providing a worthwhile commentary on a chess game? outside of novelty, comedy or the like i really can't.
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On October 02 2008 15:38 BroOd wrote:
moletrap i think your comparisons to cosell and costas are incorrect. the situations are too disparate.
instead, can you imagine a person who isn't good at chess providing a worthwhile commentary on a chess game? outside of novelty, comedy or the like i really can't.
I _INSTANTLY_ thought the exact same thing. I thought of some random chess newb to say "Choosing to move 1. e4 was probably very calculated by our player here. He probably spent hours thinking of all the ways this game can develop from 1. e4. I'm certain that the opponent will probably respond with a pawn movement himself, and wait to see what the white player has in mind"
To be honest, that's what a lot of those english SC commentaries sound like. Really vague and entirely ignorant of what the game is actually like for the players. Not all commentaries of course, but many.
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First, thanks all for keeping this thread, amazingly, flame- and stupidity-free so far!
I think one of Moletrap's best points was that few of the critics here have actually watched some of our games as of late. Instead, they are basing their views on the commentary on what they think a player without competitive gaming skill would be like in their imagination. They do this without considering that there are many other factors that go into a pro Korean commentary: background about the player' s styles and patterns; analysis of how they've done recently; what else may be affecting their game play; and of course the play-by-play, which does take most of the attention (and which, contrary to what you think, it takes not much "technical skills" to achieve and we do very well in).
Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it:
+ Show Spoiler +
Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle):
+ Show Spoiler +
My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse.
Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC.
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On October 02 2008 15:26 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
I'll stray from the vein everyone's been on and just give you some straight up suggestions.
If you're gonna do commentaries, commentate replays that are of players who are at your level, or maybe even your own games. FP commentaries are kind of interesting at any level, and you'll learn a lot more about StarCraft that way than by guessing constantly about players who are much, much better than you.
Bascially: If on your best day and most focused moments you couldn't replicate what you're claiming the players are thinking... Don't commentate those games.
TL has a huge focus on pro-gaming, but it doesn't mean you can't commentate amateur/hobbiest games instead. Be humble, know yourself, and don't get angry at people who don't like your work. It's up to you and friends to motivate you when you're still learning. Not the general audience.
I think either this or having a skilled color commentator for pro games would be really beneficial to folks like the OP.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 02 2008 23:14 CholeraSC wrote:First, thanks all for keeping this thread, amazingly, flame- and stupidity-free so far! I think one of Moletrap's best points was that few of the critics here have actually watched some of our games as of late. Instead, they are basing their views on the commentary on what they think a player without competitive gaming skill would be like in their imagination. They do this without considering that there are many other factors that go into a pro Korean commentary: background about the player' s styles and patterns; analysis of how they've done recently; what else may be affecting their game play; and of course the play-by-play, which does take most of the attention (and which, contrary to what you think, it takes not much "technical skills" to achieve and we do very well in). Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bPv8JI6zY Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle): + Show Spoiler +My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse. Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC.
If you to show your new commentaries that you want to share or think are particularly good, please go ahead and make a thread or bump your old one. I'll moderate to make sure the non-positive comments are constructive criticism and not flames, but judging by the threads you've posted in the past theres few if any people just BM'ing you.
Cheers!
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United States42486 Posts
I've always been very frustrated by commentary that just doesn't understand the metagame. I can see why in something like football they just call out what's going on because in a game where the execution is more important that's all a commentator needs to do. But if you do that in Starcraft then you're really just catering for the blind audience. People can see what's going on for themselves. You need to be able to explain why they do things and for that you need to be able to get inside their heads, to talk about what each player knows about the other player, why their strategy is designed to beat what they think the opponent is doing, how they are second guessing each other, the number of levels they're thinking on.
Ignoring that makes a commentary boring and pointless.
Flat out getting it wrong makes a commentary misleading to those who don't know any better and irritating to those who do.
I can't watch most commentated vods without cringing as they criticise what they don't understand. Even some early Tasteless vods got under my skin when he'd criticise a player for moving out early and I'd be like "no... he's moving out without any real army while taking an expo he can't defend because his opponent knows it'd be suicide so his opponent assumes that he's not taking the expo and by the time he works it out it'll be safe". But Tasteless has grown hugely as a player and as a commentator in Korea to the point that I find him universally informative. I'm sure he still makes some mistakes that annoy top level players but he's beyond my level of understanding.
In short, I think you need to be better at Starcraft (or at least the metagame which you learn through playing Starcraft) than your audience. You can only get away with shoddy analysis when you're catering for idiots. It is my belief that this is why so many of the sc2gg favourites get such a rough time here. The skill level of tl members is just generally higher so the "wtf are you talking about" response to their commentary is more frequent.
If you want to commentate for people who have never played bw before then by all means go for it. If you want to commentate for me then come back when you can tell me something I can't see for myself.
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I want to be the very best [commentator]
That garimto never was
To speak, is my real test
The gameplay is my cause
*do do do*
I want to travel across the maps
obsing far and wide
so spectators can understand
that power goes with pride
*di do dii*
COMMENTATE
gotta commentateeeeee
i know its my destinity
COMMMENTATE ohhhhhh
its for you and me
and the streamers chance to seeeee
COMMENTATE
is so trueeee
klazart will pull us through
you spec me and i spec you
commenttateeeeeeee
every time a player cheeses
ill predict the flow of the play
so that when!!! the loser leaves
it will be as if i made your dayyy
so spec with me, when the steam is up
ill try to commentate well
on IRC, dont go spamming the OP
cause he'll send you to helllll
COMMENTATE
gotta commentateeeeee
i know its my destinity
COMMMENTATE ohhhhhh
its for you and me
and the streamers chance to seeeee
COMMENTATE
is so trueeee
klazart will pull us through
you spec me and i spec you
commenttateeeeeeee
gotta commentateeeeeeee
gotta commentateeeeeee..
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I like the point that was made above, by the way, that there shouldn't be such a divide being the commentators and the top players. I thought my recent casts with Louder were some of my best work, because we split roles between me being the play-by-play caster with knowledge of the players, and Louder predicting and analyzing their builds and tactics. I agree that it's too bad we expect commentators to be the "complete package" of both enthusiasm / color commentary and in-depth knowledge of the game.
I'd be very open to working with any of the top players here on a dual commentary of a Korean or amateur game. It's not a problem if they haven't done casting before, since I can set up all the equipment and process the videos. They'll be able try out shoutcasting and gain instant access to 3,000 subscribers/viewers and their comments. I'll be able to pick their brain about tactics and predictions in game, and hopefully raise the level of my work.
I came to the scene after some of the previous spats between the sites, and I really don't care for them, so maybe if we can work out a dual commentary like I suggest here we can go forward in burying the hatchet and working together.
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On October 03 2008 01:09 Kwark wrote:
I've always been very frustrated by commentary that just doesn't understand the metagame. I can see why in something like football they just call out what's going on because in a game where the execution is more important that's all a commentator needs to do. But if you do that in Starcraft then you're really just catering for the blind audience. People can see what's going on for themselves. You need to be able to explain why they do things and for that you need to be able to get inside their heads, to talk about what each player knows about the other player, why their strategy is designed to beat what they think the opponent is doing, how they are second guessing each other, the number of levels they're thinking on.
Ignoring that makes a commentary boring and pointless.
Flat out getting it wrong makes a commentary misleading to those who don't know any better and irritating to those who do.
I can't watch most commentated vods without cringing as they criticise what they don't understand. Even some early Tasteless vods got under my skin when he'd criticise a player for moving out early and I'd be like "no... he's moving out without any real army while taking an expo he can't defend because his opponent knows it'd be suicide so his opponent assumes that he's not taking the expo and by the time he works it out it'll be safe". But Tasteless has grown hugely as a player and as a commentator in Korea to the point that I find him universally informative. I'm sure he still makes some mistakes that annoy top level players but he's beyond my level of understanding.
In short, I think you need to be better at Starcraft (or at least the metagame which you learn through playing Starcraft) than your audience. You can only get away with shoddy analysis when you're catering for idiots. It is my belief that this is why so many of the sc2gg favourites get such a rough time here. The skill level of tl members is just generally higher so the "wtf are you talking about" response to their commentary is more frequent.
If you want to commentate for people who have never played bw before then by all means go for it. If you want to commentate for me then come back when you can tell me something I can't see for
myself.
I highly doubt that most TL members are better than SC2GG members. The difference is that there are VERY high skilled people on TL.net, and as far as I know, not many on SC2GG. So what happens is some of the real skilled regulars (like you) make some comments like "OMG these casters don't know what they're talking about" and the TL masses chime in too even though they are probably just as shitty as an SC2GG member and don't know or understand themselves what's going on in these games. Let's face it, the average TL member is probably D level, just like the average SC2GG member (TL has a lot of good players, but they also have many more members than SC2GG so it probably averages out to about the same skill).
Personally, I think that it IS possible to be a really good caster or have a really great amount of game knowledge without having been a good player. However, this is VERY rare and there are probably only a handful of exceptions to this rule.
Two examples off the top of my head from Basketball...
1) EJ (white guy) from Inside the NBA. Ok, I know he isn't a commentator but if you listen to him on the show, the amount of basketball knowledge he has is ridiculous, he probably knows more about the game than Charles and Kenny.
2) Mike Breen . To my knowledge he wasn't a high level basketball player, but he knows sooooo much about the game, and he is one of the best commentators.
The difference between a commentator who has been a great player and one who hasn't is their ability to personalize their commentary. A great player can commentate about his own experiences (think Jeff Van Gundy always bringing up situations he'd faced, etc), while a commentator who was not a great player doesn't have that ability and must rely more on his personality and superior game knowledge to tell the story.
Again, it is extremeley rare imo for a non-player to become a great commentator/announcer BUT it can and has happened in various sports, so there's no reason it can't happen in BW either. I personally don't believe it has happened yet, but there are a lot of commentators at SC2GG that are really good and enjoyable.
Also think of it this way, a lot of the SC2GG commentators are sort of new to the game, or at least new (comparatively) to following it competitively than the "better" casters like Chill, Artosis, Tasteless. These guys have been competitive with the game probably since it came out, so not only do they have playing experience, but have watched 304583409809x more games over the years. So comparatively you need to look at the knowledge of the SC2GG casters and say "how deeply can they understand the game if they've only been following it for about 1-2 years max?" So, cut em' a little slack because there are some gems over there, and with time they will only get better (and a lot of them have noticeably improved over the past months, etc).
<3 shoutcasting.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Xeris, i completely agree with the idea that we should cut a lot of the SC2GG casters some slack. They are trying, and they are working hard to get better, and they do appeal to an audience that we don't have here at TL. If we get more people that are newbies and turn them into knowledgeable pro-gaming followers, it'd be great for our website.
That said, I don't think using the idea that "we cater to different audiences" is a no-holes shield for not understanding the game as fully as you can. If people criticize your commentary for lack of insight, you can still present the ideas you lack without alienating your "more common audience. " I think Van Gundy in basketball is a great example of someone who can explain things in a thoughtful manner to someone who doesn't know that much about basketball. That's why this whole "separate audiences" thing is not really accurate, because you can provide high level, insightful commentary that still appeals just as much to D- players.
Not acknowledging this and just passing it off as "oh i cater to a different audiences so i don't have to really go that deep into analysis" is selling yourself short and not working as hard as you can to improve. There's a vast difference between having the strategical knowledge and purposely omitting it or wording it differently to appeal to a broader audience and not having the strategical knowledge at all and saying I don't have to have it because I am trying to appeal to a different audience.
I think SC2GG casters can appeal to everyone, even those "haters" must admit they've gotten better over the months. I think interacting more with TL can only speed up the improvement process. Segregating themselves from any negative comments hurts everyone: SC2GG, TL, and the audience.
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I would like to clarify a bit the myth of Korean MC's. They rapidly got "ex" pro gamers to the MC job because they were getting severly critisized. Especially the OGN Mcs.
That's a bit off topic, but you wouldn't imagine the power that holds the fat OGN mc over the leagues, map choices and channels.
For having met him, several times, and Grrrr... translating me what he use to say about the game and the players around the meeting tables, the guy was pretty clueless.
As for MBC MCs, unlike OGN ones, they were hardcore starcraft gamers and big big fans. MBC mcs are quite famous on Bnet and basically use to spend their entire fucking free time matching up pros against each others until late night online, obsing them.
As for the English commentary thing, I'm not a huge fan of it, as, eventho I highly respect what Tasteless and Artosis do / are trying to do, I think it's still very unpolished and rookie. (I do however appreciate tasteless much more as he isn't basically saying every second how "godly" "brilliant" "smart" "inventive" "skilled" the player he is obsing is at the very moment he is actually making mistakes -_-)
I never thought SC commentating made much sense for a non newbie audience.
As for the english audios I often check out, it beeing gom, scforall or youtube - they sound most of the time pretty immature. So far, only TL.net attack sounded somewhat grown up mode and not too nerdy.
Alas I think people wanting to commentate starcraft, or any game actually, should rather learn from non live TV random show casts (not sports).
Learn how to properly articualte, talk, breath and just not sound like you never done that before.
I know Poker casts might not be the best exemples as poker is a much easier thing to watch, but MC's there often derive from the event course much, and it's totally fine.
What I mean there is that, TL dudes are right in this way :
If you don't know jack shit about SC, aka didn't play it for 10 years or not beeing able to get top spots of iccup / pgt / gamei whatever, don't go on trying to explain what godlike pros are doing with their units. Rather try to make the cast interesting somehow and get some help from a good player at your side. Or you can just know the game quite a bit and by the way you talk about it, make people enjoy it the way you actually enjoy it.
But again, as it stands right now, English commentating has to go a fucking long way (it beeing in or outside korea) to reach other regular show's casting standards. That's imo what ppl should aim for, I mean, you don't have any English model of prof. SC commentating (as a mainstream thing). Only thing you have is something done in Korean you can't really appreciate (and that is imo not that "pro" at all). So you should rather try to copy and get to your regular tv show cast's standards, backed up with solid SC practice.
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Yeah I started with SC2GG casts about 6 months ago, and now I just watch the games live/jon747 or I watch Diggity or Cholera sometimes. Many of the other members miss a lot of stuff, and it is frustrating when you understand what is going on better than the commentator lol.
I do really appreciate SC2GG, I would likely not have discovered starcraft without them.
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referring to the needed skill level of commentators thats been a prevalent argument. i might add that the need for commentators in starcraft is a very small demand. probably 10-20 foreigners required to do this would be more than sufficient. obviously not every game will be covered but sometimes its not important to watch every game.
commentators without skill or indepth knowledge of the game have very limited potential in that they don't have the appeal to more experiences players. commentators with skill can reach out to the higher level of player and the lower just by adjusting how indepth they want to go(a luxury not held by the lower level of knowledge)
Koreans and Pro-sports casters have the luxury of money to hire many different people to do various jobs but for foreigners casting starcraft, koreans don't want to dish out all that much money to pay english commentators. It is quite apparent that GOMtv wants the job done with as few commentators as possible. Tasteless is perfect for this job. If he wanted to go indepth, he could cater to the audience that way. However, he doesn't because there is such a broad audience. Yeah he has Susie but she is just there to translate for him(he'll learn korean eventually, it's a pretty easy language, i speak it and understand it fluently as being half korean myself).
The thing is that yes, everyone that has a good voice and can shoutcast well could be a commentator but with such low demand and high supply...the only real need is for those that have the knowledge/experience as well as the social aspects(Tasteless, Artosis, a few others). They might be rare but are common enough to fulfill the demand.
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Well I cant say I read every response in this thread since each one appears to be a wall of text, so sorry if this is a repeat of something a post I didnt read said.
I think that the general idea of having high game knowledge is what holds back most commentators, and it should. In StarCraft you could watch two different games on teh same map and somebody without knowledge of whats going on inside of a players head, and on the field as well, wouldnt even be able to tell teh difference. Obvioulsy everyone on TL could, but my point is that even the biggest dumbass in the world could watch 2 different basketballs games and tell the difference between each game. StarCraft is a bunch of weird looking aliend being controlled by some crazy Korean kid, Basketball is a time old sport which involves alot of human drama which make sit much easier for the caster to get into the game, and in doing so makes his commentary much more enjoyable.
With StarCraft I think that you have to find such a very careful balance to maintain interest and strategical insight on the same level. While Cholera, Diggity, Moletrapp, and Klazart all have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics of the game and the basic strategies, I do not think that they have the necessary experience it takes to become a caster on the level that Tasteless or Artosis are. Without being in at least some sort of competitive tournament how can you possible understand what is going through the heads of each Pro Gamer? It is practically impossible even for Tasteless and Artosis, or anyone for that matter, but if you have no professional/amateur SC experience you might as well be in a dark closet by yourself.
That is what seperates professionals from amateurs imo, not knowing the strategies or the maps, because anyone can do that, but giving insight as to what the gamer may be thinking. I know it sounds as if I am just repeating myself, but seriously when I listen to a Cholera or Diggity commentary I feel like they are just telling me what is going on in my head. For a noob that is really nice and helpful, but I want to hear about something I do not know which is the mental facet of the game, how a player would think about some scenario or another compared to mine. What you guys are doing is telling me what a B rank iccup player would do at this point in time, counters, strategies, expo, or what have you, but I hate to tell you most of the BW fans already know these BOs and how to counter them.
I think your guys commentary is fun and really enjoyable to listen to some times, but honestly it just doesn't serve a purpose in a tight knit community of veterans like this one. Even though most of us are D players and so on, most of us have been playing this game for years and even if you suck ass still you know what the good players are trying to do mechanically.
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On September 30 2008 10:18 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:
Hmmm I dont know where most of you are getting your Tasteless commentary from but I think he is very well strategically versed. I mean of course it is not all he concentrates on since he has to do all if by himself, but he understands the basic BO and flow of every matchup for every race. I see what your saying here, but I myself find "over analyzing" is often worse than not knowing everything about everything.
To the OP: I would try and do one if I were you, post it here and see what everyone thinks. From what you have posted it doesnt sound like your bag, but it can never hurt right?
Haven't watched him in a while, but I remember laughing when he said something like "OMG! Flash [I think] is sending all his SCVS!" Oh wait, my bad, he's just transferring..."
Which brings up the question-does Tasteless just have his own observer screen, or does he have four? (1 for each player, 1 to obs yourself, 1 to see what main obs is doing)
Thanks
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On October 02 2008 23:14 CholeraSC wrote:Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bPv8JI6zY Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle): + Show Spoiler +My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse. Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC.
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On October 03 2008 06:52 ItchReliever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 23:14 CholeraSC wrote:Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bPv8JI6zY Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle): + Show Spoiler +My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse. Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC.
It may have been a bit rash to compare yourself to the top tier of commentators  (
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Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck.
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Well the answer to that is time. I guess fpvods are the best to see how to make fast useful actions. They're basically doing everything you're doing, only more times in a second, and other things. Repeatedly doing something has its uses such as cycling units and buildings to see if stuff is done/getting damaged. If you can't conceptually grasp high apm then it just takes time and watching fpvods
Intrigue made a good point though, it takes a WHILE to get a good understanding of the game just because there's so much to learn. There's almost levels to everything as you go up. There's always more to understand, so I hope you're ready to invest some time
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
No one is saying you have to have high APM to commentate well. You need a rich understanding of the starcraft metagame. Hotbid is a good example of this - he doesn't play that fast and he's not an amazing player but he understands the game so well and has a good understanding of what the players are doing and what they are going to do. That is the key.
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On October 03 2008 09:05 Kennigit wrote:
No one is saying you have to have high APM to commentate well. You need a rich understanding of the starcraft metagame. Hotbid is a good example of this - he doesn't play that fast and he's not an amazing player but he understands the game so well and has a good understanding of what the players are doing and what they are going to do. That is the key.
I didn't say it was. I just think the only thing holding me back from being a better player is my lack of speed. I have an understanding of terran that is easily more profound than the average D player. The problem is execution. I'm slow and forgetful, which leads to poor macro and huge mistakes (I just played a game yesterday where I successfully fended off some tanks ledging my natural but forgot to stick my SCVs back on mining).
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
practice and repetition is the only way you are going to get faster and better.
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Calgary25977 Posts
I think there's a mental aspect of committing to getting faster of well!
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On October 03 2008 09:16 Kennigit wrote:
practice and repetition is the only way you are going to get faster and better.
Has to be the right kind of practice. :p
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United States42486 Posts
On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck.
My apm never really got much higher than 135 either and I always felt that my metagame was far stronger than my mechanics. And while I could spam faster or could micro at a higher speed I also never really saw where to spend the excess apm. I lacked the muscle memory to do the continual macro and moving around that better players do. That just takes practice. You need to play a lot of games and get into the habit of moving through your control groups and constantly tabbing back to your production facilities to keep them running.
That said, I think it's easily possible to reach B- without strong mechanics or high apm simply because players up to that level play exploitably and you can execute them easily enough. While icc rank isn't an absolute guide to understanding of metagame because some players understand far more than they can execute I think that it's difficult to credibly argue that you have good metagame while being a D rank. If you understand why a build is good then you can look at whatever build your opponent at D rank does and see how to beat it. Then you just beat it with the counterbuild. At D they don't understand why their build is weak or why the build you're now doing is strong against it because they're just copying what they saw in a replay without any real understanding of context.
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On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck.
If you haven't had time to get above a D rank, you definitely have not had enough time to study the game enough to be a top-level commentator. The game and strategies and builds evolve and adapt every season and within seasons, and a good commentator will not only be able to identify, understand and execute these changes in the game, but also know how individual gamers' styles and builds fit in and match up against others. A constant commitment to not only playing, but following the entire scene is important, and shows when you cast. This is something the Korean casters still clearly have above even tasteless and Artosis, and in turn they have above most other casters. In my opinion, being a great caster takes even more commitment than being a B level player. If you can only devote the time to become D, even if your understanding goes well beyond that, you're not committed enough throughout the year to understand the evolution and changes in the game.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 03 2008 09:51 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck. My apm never really got much higher than 135 either and I always felt that my metagame was far stronger than my mechanics. And while I could spam faster or could micro at a higher speed I also never really saw where to spend the excess apm. I lacked the muscle memory to do the continual macro and moving around that better players do. That just takes practice. You need to play a lot of games and get into the habit of moving through your control groups and constantly tabbing back to your production facilities to keep them running. That said, I think it's easily possible to reach B- without strong mechanics or high apm simply because players up to that level play exploitably and you can execute them easily enough. While icc rank isn't an absolute guide to understanding of metagame because some players understand far more than they can execute I think that it's difficult to credibly argue that you have good metagame while being a D rank. If you understand why a build is good then you can look at whatever build your opponent at D rank does and see how to beat it. Then you just beat it with the counterbuild. At D they don't understand why their build is weak or why the build you're now doing is strong against it because they're just copying what they saw in a replay without any real understanding of context.
The fuck? You got to B at 135 APM? WTF.
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Calgary25977 Posts
LOL why didnt I see that coming? Fuck hahaha
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On October 03 2008 07:57 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 06:52 ItchReliever wrote:On October 02 2008 23:14 CholeraSC wrote:Watch this Korean-commentated game I got translated by a fluent Korean fan. It was July v Best in the OSL Finals, so certainly they would be pitching their best broadcast team in it: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bPv8JI6zY Now watch one of my recent commentaries that I pulled off my list. It's not my most exciting, but I try to stay on very much on the ball in it (Fantasy v Flash, KTF v SKT1 Rival Battle): + Show Spoiler +My point is, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge against the Korean commentators, or Tasteless' GomTV videos, in terms of quality of commentary and analysis. It's a bold claim, but if you don't know our respective gaming backgrounds, I don't think you would find mine to be any worse. Cholera, "Pepsi is better", SC. It may have been a bit rash to compare yourself to the top tier of commentators (
Especially since you decide to pick a short ass game where most of the talking is commentating on the shocking, ridiculous play by July. You really can't expect that much strategic depth when July goes for some cheesy (albeit amazing) play.
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On October 03 2008 10:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 09:51 Kwark wrote:On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
The fuck? You got to B at 135 APM? WTF.
=( ive only been able to get to c with 170 apm zug zug
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On September 30 2008 08:02 SonuvBob wrote:
GG.net can't satisfy you like Chill TL can!
You satisfy me SonuvBob
LOL, DON'T EVEN START
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I would actually love to see replays of Chill vs. Kwark, btw.
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On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck.
I don't know why you keep talking about APM as if it is the most important factor. I'm probably a C+ / B- level player (B level PvT, C+ level other mu's , averages out) ... and I play between 120-130 apm on average. O_O;
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i think what a lot of people are not quite getting here is that to accept someones commentary you need to have a certain amount of respect for them. If its someone who knows less about the game than you do you are stuck thinking 'why am i listening to this guy when I know more about whats going on than he does?'
Even if your commentary is worthwhile(if it is or isnt is a completely different story).
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United States42486 Posts
I think it is true that you can get by with less as Protoss though. But not for the reasons most people think (ie easy race, attack move = win). Protoss matchups give the player far more options than others. Although a lot of players ignore this, playing standard straight up mechanical games and winning like that, it does create a niche for players with more creative insight than skill which the other races don't have.
A wider range of options with more diverse uses makes Protoss very friendly for the low apm user who correctly reads his opponent and kills them with a well executed, well timed counter. Even in PvP the range of openings available is far wider than that in TvT and ZvZ.
Good mechanical players exist in all three races and are balanced, a technically good player would find no race harder than the other. But I believe a player with limited mechanical skills but good game sense will always find Protoss easier to play with. The low apm, high ranked user anomaly is almost uniquely Protoss.
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United States42486 Posts
On October 03 2008 13:50 EvoChamber wrote:
I would actually love to see replays of Chill vs. Kwark, btw.
I've not played since I got Midiowned and I think Chill was the better of us when we played. The games were fairly underwhelming. The standard of play was high but lower than you'll find in TSL rep packs and nothing strategically unusual. Every now and then I get an urge to get back in shape and own up D rank icc but that's nostalgia speaking. I have no urge to actually play the game anymore.
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On October 03 2008 13:56 Kwark wrote:
Protoss is ez mode. It's like game genie codes for SC.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 03 2008 13:50 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck. I don't know why you keep talking about APM as if it is the most important factor. I'm probably a C+ / B- level player (B level PvT, C+ level other mu's , averages out) ... and I play between 120-130 apm on average. O_O;
where'd you finish in the TSL? B is pretty good.
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United States42486 Posts
On October 03 2008 14:05 SonuvBob wrote:
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On October 03 2008 13:50 Xeris wrote:
I don't know why you keep talking about APM as if it is the most important factor. I'm probably a C+ / B- level player (B level PvT, C+ level other mu's , averages out) ... and I play between 120-130 apm on average. O_O;
I don't think APM is the most important factor to everyone everywhere always; it is one of many factors. I do think that the biggest reason that my level of play suffers is because I lack speed (IE, APM).
Without derailing my own thread into something about strategy, I generally know how to counter any fairly common build against any race. I cannot, however, quickly and accurately do the micro and macro necessary to execute a proper counter. If I micro, I'll win the battle, but not the war, because my Raxes/Facs/Ports aren't building anything. If I macro, I lose the battle, get pushed and the macro is in vain.
So to put it back on to topic: if my commentating is assuredly going to suffer because I'm not a high-tier player, I would like to get better (hell, I'd like to get better just to get better). It doesn't mean I won't commentate until I am better, because there's never going to be an arbitrary point where I decide "Ok, I'm good enough at starcraft to commentate now", but if improving my walk will help my talk, then let the games begin.
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On October 03 2008 14:07 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 13:50 Xeris wrote:On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck. I don't know why you keep talking about APM as if it is the most important factor. I'm probably a C+ / B- level player (B level PvT, C+ level other mu's , averages out) ... and I play between 120-130 apm on average. O_O; where'd you finish in the TSL? B is pretty good.
I didn't play in TSL at all. I stopped at C+ on ICCUP last season. My PvZ is ok, my PvP is very weak and my PvT is very good. I was able to take games and have really competitive series against Aerials and SchiSm at Canada LAN (both are A- high players)... based on that and seeing that my PvT win % on ICCUP at C+ was about 70% I was assuming that my PvT level is around B... but I know my PvZ is worse, and my PvP is worse still.
I played a buttload this summer because I had a ton of free time and devoted some time to improving, and for w/e reason PvT is the matchup that I really improved upon in that time. But ya I didn't figure I'd get anywhere worth mentioning in TSL so I didn't bother playing.
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How is it going for this guy to be a commentator? any news?
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
i've never understood this infatuation with APM. look... terran require the most apm, zerg are in the middle and protoss are at the end. some also require more macro then micro etc etc. all the require very diffrent skill sets, it's not just about apm and strategy. for instance have you ever noticed zerg building placement is probably the least signifigant when compared to the other three races? good thing this game isn't all about building placement. learning how to get high apm is not that difficult. just go play against a computer and get maxed as fast as possible. if you ever forget a pylon/overlord/depot just restart the game. go study some simple build orders and attempt to execute them vs that comp.
do you know how many good players have had low apm? have you ever seen testie play? what about savior? i watched them both play live at WCG world finals and they weren't dancing around at the 300 level.
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On October 03 2008 14:07 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 13:50 Xeris wrote:On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck. I don't know why you keep talking about APM as if it is the most important factor. I'm probably a C+ / B- level player (B level PvT, C+ level other mu's , averages out) ... and I play between 120-130 apm on average. O_O; where'd you finish in the TSL? B is pretty good.
he said b only for his pvt though ^^
I think apm isnt that important. I hate it when it when a person judges a person's skill with apm and even more  eapm.
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my apm is about 180-200 yet im still a D and i cant see myself hitting D+/C- in a longgggggg time to come.
apm means jack all and only really helps at really really high levels. It's only at these levels where little mechanical tricks make a difference because their game sense and everything else is up to level
The only reason i aim at keeping my high apm is cause i know that it will help out when the time comes, and because it just feels *fun*. Also, it isn't that hard to keep a high apm so i don't see why one shouldn't aim at getting high apm while they play and aim to improve their play in general.
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On October 02 2008 03:06 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2008 03:04 CholeraSC wrote:On October 02 2008 02:59 Chill wrote:On October 02 2008 02:39 CholeraSC wrote:On October 02 2008 02:29 Chill wrote:
Tasteless mentions a lot of high level ideas in his casts, actually. He just doesn't harp on them and mentions them in passing, but they are there. Most times the most technical detail I hear is, "he's building a supply depot on the bottom of the CC to squeeze the SCV out nearer to his minerals", or something like "X is going for a fast reaver drop, which is a great counter to a T fast expand, if the T doesn't know about it, and they don't because they can't get the early Comsat...". These are things that can be, and are, in videos like mine. I do hear some high-level ideas, but like you say, they aren't emphasized, and I bet you don't watch his videos just for that 3 second snip of high-level analysis. Anyway, I'm not asking TL to like my videos, or those of my friends, as much as Tasteless'. I understand that his style might be more energetic, his jokes funnier, and his active membership here more endearing. But I just ask that you don't judge our videos by the supposed lack of technical merit, since I do not think that is not the criteria you judge his professional casts by, either. That's all I judge on. Artosis = most technical = best; Tasteless = close second, everyone else = zero. That's what I've always said. O_O Edit: Maybe that's the royal you? :D It is the plural you, ustedes. But do watch the videos I did with Louder, especially games 2 and 3, to see some pretty darn technical videos. For the sake of a fully informed discussion, I will. It should also be noted Louder is a retard so that will probably weigh in on my enjoyment.
If you had a chance to watch some of this series, I'd appreciate your honest feedback. Tear my commentary a new one, if needed. But at least you would've watched a game before judging, which I suspect most of the responders here, who talk so theoretically about how unlistenable we'd be, have not done.
Thx - Cholera
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All this talk about become a commentator. MAKE A VID and start working on it.
Like you have to ask us to try become a commentator.
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On October 03 2008 16:18 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2008 14:07 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 03 2008 13:50 Xeris wrote:On October 03 2008 08:46 VorcePA wrote:
Well, riddle me this, Batman (and TL.net):
I watch replays, watch VODs, and GOMTV frequently. I play Starcraft fairly frequently, but I haven't had the time for the past, oh, 3 months or so because of life... I've really felt I've reached the peak of my abilities, and that peak is a solid D on ICCup with my best games reaching a whopping (ha.) 135 APM average.
Now, granted, I understand the game on a higher level than my ICCup rating gives me credit for. That being said, I honestly don't know how to make worthwhile actions beyond the 135 mark. If my average is above 135, I've spammed useless actions. Sure, I can peak at around 300-350 APM, but just for a mere second or two, then it drops back down. I do not know how to maintain a high APM that is not just high, but also useful. I know the difference between spamming and making use of those actions, but applying it has been where I get stuck. I don't know why you keep talking about APM as if it is the most important factor. I'm probably a C+ / B- level player (B level PvT, C+ level other mu's , averages out) ... and I play between 120-130 apm on average. O_O; where'd you finish in the TSL? B is pretty good. I didn't play in TSL at all. I stopped at C+ on ICCUP last season. My PvZ is ok, my PvP is very weak and my PvT is very good. I was able to take games and have really competitive series against Aerials and SchiSm at Canada LAN (both are A- high players)... based on that and seeing that my PvT win % on ICCUP at C+ was about 70% I was assuming that my PvT level is around B... but I know my PvZ is worse, and my PvP is worse still. I played a buttload this summer because I had a ton of free time and devoted some time to improving, and for w/e reason PvT is the matchup that I really improved upon in that time. But ya I didn't figure I'd get anywhere worth mentioning in TSL so I didn't bother playing.
Number 1 I doubt you stopped at C+, you probably just couldn't get any further than that. Number 2 just because pvt is your best mu doesn't mean you are B level pvt player. From what I've seen it's no where close to that. Honestly no offence man but you are massively inflating your skill level you're not very good.
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actually I did stop at C+ ask anyone who knows me. also how am I massively inflating my skill when I'm openly stating that I'm only good at one matchup? I.E any mid level P and Z player has a great chance of beating me. also, if you read my previous post actually you would see the evidence I listed as to why I think my PvT is at a high level.
thanks for your input troll, why don't you post an aka before saying I suck.
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lol i thought this was a new thread 
i would like to watch vods where tasteless and artosis comment together. that would be awesome
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On October 04 2008 00:08 wo0py wrote:
All this talk about become a commentator. MAKE A VID and start working on it.
Like you have to ask us to try become a commentator.
I didn't ask you to try to be a commentator. I asked for resources on becoming a commentator, and actually, chill provided the answer in the very first response on page 1.
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I thought the title was "Is Xellos really B PvT"
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Because you seem to think just because you have the highest stats in pvt that means you are a B level player in that matchup when all you've ever done was just make C+. I'm not saying you suck I just think you are over inflating your skill. If you are B level pvt and I beat you tvp does that mean I'm B+ terran? What if I rape you then am I A? According to your math I guess it does. Prodigy-X17 on east if you want to test this out.
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I don't get why everyone cares about how deeply skilled a commentator is supposed to be. I wouldn't care if tasteless only played fastest maps. I just like him. he's funny. and anyone that knows starcraft a bit can get by I think, if you have the voice and the personality. which not many do.
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He said he beat several A- Terrans though.
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Hey Xeris, I've beaten Louder but I don't consider myself B+ ZvP... maybe B-
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Hey Xeris, don't you have the LSAT tomorrow?
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
HEY FUCKING ASSHOLES
STOP TROLLING ON XERIS
NOW GTFO
thx
who the fuck changed the title of this thread. The thread creator wanted advice on commentating. Change the title back or close the thread.
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On October 04 2008 02:06 milly9 wrote:
I don't get why everyone cares about how deeply skilled a commentator is supposed to be. I wouldn't care if tasteless only played fastest maps. I just like him. he's funny. and anyone that knows starcraft a bit can get by I think, if you have the voice and the personality. which not many do.
People are saying that without tasteless being good at starcraft, or any other commentator being good at starcraft, they can never bee a great commentator. Many people think that you need to be able to be good at the game to truly understand it at a deeper level and be a good commentator.
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Live and let live anyone?
...
I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that this thread has turned to ego rubbing, new member bashing, and retarded APM arguments.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 04 2008 02:21 Live2Win wrote:
HEY FUCKING ASSHOLES
STOP TROLLING ON XERIS
NOW GTFO
thx
who the fuck changed the title of this thread. The thread creator wanted advice on commentating. Change the title back or close the thread.
The thread was answered on page 2.
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United States42486 Posts
Xeris is a solid player. I wouldn't be surprised if his PvT was B. ICC is full of Protoss players, unless you have good PvP you can't gain ranks. Of course there's an easy way of testing this. He just has to make an account and only play PvT, see how high he gets. Although a variety of maps and builds would help too because it's easy to become good at just one build on one map.
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That's how the Koreans do it. Playing one map and same builds makes winning a lot easier.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 04 2008 02:15 ahole-surprise wrote:
Hey Xeris, don't you have the LSAT tomorrow?
If this is true, good luck! I still remember the day I took mine. Man my head fucking hurt afterwards.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On October 04 2008 02:31 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2008 02:21 Live2Win wrote:
HEY FUCKING ASSHOLES
STOP TROLLING ON XERIS
NOW GTFO
thx
who the fuck changed the title of this thread. The thread creator wanted advice on commentating. Change the title back or close the thread. The thread was answered on page 2.
then close the thread.
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Some staff member who's got a hard on 4 the dramas~!!
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hey i got to B- with 110-130 APM and Im a zerg, so its not only possible with protoss!
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United States42486 Posts
On October 04 2008 02:42 Dutch wrote:
That's how the Koreans do it. Playing one map and same builds makes winning a lot easier.
Yeah but I don't think that should count for your skill level if you follow.
You can have a player who is B in any matchup, any map, any playstyle losing to a much worse player who is playing a specific practiced build that they know inside out. When I say a player is B rank I mean B rank playing casually. I think a player who can get B rank casually can easily beat a player who can get A rank casually if he practices a specific build. That doesn't make him A rank.
In the foreigner scene where we don't practice maps and builds intensively I think it's the quality of your casual everyday game that decides your skill level.
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whats up with the moderation here? stop abusing the mod power. while changing the thread title to somethg retarded like this u encourage others to derail this thread even more with stupid apm discussion and bragging and stuff.
i mean, its not even funny and some pretty good posts by tasteless and others have been made.
dont strive for gg,net forum quality, esp. with all those new guys around try to set a good example of what good moderation is about.
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On October 04 2008 03:10 damenmofa wrote:
hey i got to B- with 110-130 APM and Im a zerg, so its not only possible with protoss!
Isn't it established that incontrol hsd ~120ish APM.
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On October 04 2008 02:21 Live2Win wrote:
HEY FUCKING ASSHOLES
STOP TROLLING ON XERIS
NOW GTFO
thx
who the fuck changed the title of this thread. The thread creator wanted advice on commentating. Change the title back or close the thread.
I bet it was Chill, trolling as usual. Judging by his response down below, I'm almost sure
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On October 04 2008 03:33 Texas wrote:
whats up with the moderation here? stop abusing the mod power. while changing the thread title to somethg retarded like this u encourage others to derail this thread even more with stupid apm discussion and bragging and stuff.
i mean, its not even funny and some pretty good posts by tasteless and others have been made.
Agreed. Some mods are total hypocrites here. I'm not saying who because I have no idea who did this, but whoever did this should grow up and let go of your infant grudge towards Xeris. You guys spend all your time yelling at kids for doing and saying dumb things, yet you encourage this...? ...okay. Mod power-abuse has taken a steep incline the last year.
Edit: Even this new thread title is complete faggotry. "Scandal Inside!" Wtf is this? Enquirer?
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Calgary25977 Posts
Haha you guys have no souls. I'm not trolling Xeris I really like the guy.
On October 04 2008 03:38 Quesadilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2008 03:33 Texas wrote:
whats up with the moderation here? stop abusing the mod power. while changing the thread title to somethg retarded like this u encourage others to derail this thread even more with stupid apm discussion and bragging and stuff.
i mean, its not even funny and some pretty good posts by tasteless and others have been made. Agreed. Some mods are total hypocrites here. I'm not saying who because I have no idea who did this, but whoever did this should grow up and let go of your infant grudge towards Xeris. You guys spend all your time yelling at kids for doing and saying dumb things, yet you encourage this...? ...okay. Mod power-abuse has taken a steep incline the last year. Edit: Even this new thread title is complete faggotry. "Scandal Inside!" Wtf is this? Enquirer?
It's a joke!
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Belgium8305 Posts
it's too late now chill.. the people are clamoring for your head
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United States10328 Posts
LOL I was just on this thread and it had the old title... then it changed XD
anyway damn there is a lot of trolling on TL
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I move for a all out old school execution at Blizzcon, including quartering chills body and sending to the far reaches of teh Kingdom.
All in favor say aye.
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Calgary25977 Posts
hahaha 
Nice cow.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Well, that was a fun trip around the block:
Want to be a commentator;
Foreign commentators suck;
SC2GG vs TL relations;
SC2GG underappreciated;
TL users elitest;
SC2GG vs TL relations again;
APM;
Improving;
Kwark's history;
Xeris' history;
Calling bullshit on Xeris' history;
Mod abuse;
Calling mods out on abuse
I think it's time to let this thread rest.
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nice dodge you bastard >.<
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Calgary25977 Posts
Mod abuse posting in a closed thread omg omg omg
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EPT
