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After watching the game with + Show Spoiler +Jaedong vs Best on Katrina, and Jaedong crushing Best who was using FE DT/Sair Bisu build
The commentator mentioned that JD might have found out a counter to this effective Protoss FE Sair/DT build that is credited to Bisu, and he mentions that there is a timing weakness in this build that allows Zerg to apply constant pressure. I've seen JD always use non-hive units to make sure to keep the Protoss under pressure and since its so gas intensive, JD uses lair units instead and incorporates lots of hydras into his mixed army to protect ovies from sairs.
I think that the thing with this build is that before you can use DTs, you must have a good number of sairs that ensure your air superiority, but the thing with sairs is that they are very weak in low numbers. IMO, JD knows about this and thats why he builds large number of mutas even though people know that "generally" sairs > mutas. I have seen Jaedong use effective mass drops which were left unpunished because Best could not gain air superiority.
So as a Protoss player, I would like to see a counter to JD's counter.
Two possibilities have popped in my head:
1) Simply increase the number of sairs by going dual stargate, or
2) Try to aim for early Maelstrom
I know that #2 seems like a weak argument but if you think about it, since this build requires a Protoss to go DT right after sair anyway (assuming you don't choose reaver), I don't think making a couple of Dark Archons and taking time to research early Maelstrom is a costly idea. Especially when players like JD use mass mutalisks, and you know how devastating it can be for 10+ mutalisks become frozen by maelstrom and stormed to death. Of course, one would have to research Maelstrom probably after storm, but I think this is viable if Protoss needs early gas, building gas intensive army rather than focusing on large number of corsairs. And it would also prepare and nullify against any early ultra/ling combination.
I would like to hear inputs and criticism about this idea
EDIT: On a side note, how do you guys feel about researching D-Web in mid game? I hear that most people think its too gas costly and too micro intensive. For me, I hate having to build a Fleet Beacon just to research it but lately, I have noticed a trend in Zerg players to build 1 or 2 spores to protect their overlords. I haven't played against really good zerg players but those who I faced places large number of ovies in 1 spot protected by couple of spores. When this is done, it makes me feel like killing 6+ ovies is worth more than what I spent to research web. It slows down the zerg so much and its highly demoralizing. And since Zerg uses lots of hydras as counter, D-web won't hinder a good zerg player with a good micro but I guess it will at least have some negative effects. How do you feel about it?
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This has been addressed MANY times. There is no "counter" to the Bisu build. The zerg can only win if he is the better player. Jaedong > Best, therefore, Jaedong won.
Jaedong does not > Bisu build. Only when Jaedong beats Bisu in a Bo5 series can we say that a "counter" to the Bisu build has been found.
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Norway28781 Posts
im definitely in favour of maelstrom
maelstrom is THE definitive counter to mass mutalisk. and really, it's not very expensive. for 350/300 you get a unit that renders mutalisks useless. it doesnt just make mutalisks worse, it makes them useless. and you get the energy for mael pretty quickly too. if I happened to be a protoss progamer I would most certainly be spending my time perfecting my maelstrom timing now.
it's a great spell really. just not vs hydra lurker ling. but vs a more mutalisk heavy zerg with progamer micro, it's a necessity. the sweet thing about maelstrom is that you can't micro away from it. mutas with armor can stand almost toe to toe with corsairs if they're microed greatly, and they can dodge storm hardly losing anything at all. but maelstrom is impossible to micro against.
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On February 12 2008 15:43 Seraphim wrote:
This has been addressed MANY times. There is no "counter" to the Bisu build. The zerg can only win if he is the better player. Jaedong > Best, therefore, Jaedong won.
Jaedong does not > Bisu build. Only when Jaedong beats Bisu in a Bo5 series can we say that a "counter" to the Bisu build has been found.
Or maybe jaedong was the better player that day and the build was not defeated at all.
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On February 12 2008 15:43 Seraphim wrote:
This has been addressed MANY times. There is no "counter" to the Bisu build. The zerg can only win if he is the better player. Jaedong > Best, therefore, Jaedong won.
Jaedong does not > Bisu build. Only when Jaedong beats Bisu in a Bo5 series can we say that a "counter" to the Bisu build has been found.
As has been demonstrated countless times, there is always a counter to a build.
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On February 12 2008 15:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
im definitely in favour of maelstrom
maelstrom is THE definitive counter to mass mutalisk. and really, it's not very expensive. for 350/300 you get a unit that renders mutalisks useless. it doesnt just make mutalisks worse, it makes them useless. and you get the energy for mael pretty quickly too. if I happened to be a protoss progamer I would most certainly be spending my time perfecting my maelstrom timing now.
it's a great spell really. just not vs hydra lurker ling. but vs a more mutalisk heavy zerg with progamer micro, it's a necessity. the sweet thing about maelstrom is that you can't micro away from it. mutas with armor can stand almost toe to toe with corsairs if they're microed greatly, and they can dodge storm hardly losing anything at all. but maelstrom is impossible to micro against.
A few huge problems. Call me ignorant, but what zerg player goes mass mutalisks? I remember Savior doing it to Free once because, well...Savior was just the better player. Mass mutalisks happen probably once out of 300 games. Obviously Maelstrom is a great counter for it, but when will the situation call for it? Also, how would maelstrom be effectively vs hydra, lurker ling? I just don't see it.
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Norway28781 Posts
reread my post
i wrote it sucks vs hydra lurker ling
and the point is to use it against mass muta. (mass is any amount over 10 btw. )
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So 1-2 groups of hydralisks is mass, too? How many groups of zerglings is mass?
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Norway28781 Posts
in this context 10+ muta is mass, because 10+ is more than what zerg normally makes to harass with. if the zerg only makes 7 or so, dark archon is not necessarily worth it.
i dont understand why you try to argue semantics though. it's just annoying and doesnt contribute anything. fact is maybe i shouldnt have phrased myself the way I did but it's still easily comprehensible and there's no point in writing some sarcastic question phrased in a way that attempts to make my post look dumb.
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the best way...lets just not go for bisu build so that it wont be countered...haha
actually, i think maybe savior himself had the counter for it already as he lost in different way in the last matches they fight against each other...just maybe
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People don't read strategy forum guidelines anymore? Chill, where are you?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Drone, I think there's a timing issue here - by the time you can react to mass muta with maelstorm, muta has already fulfilled it's purpose of dominating on the threat level.
I really think the actual "counter" to Bisu build is muta/scourge since it totally nullifies the opening, but there are other weirdo options like hydra/scourge etc.
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Norway28781 Posts
bluzman you can get maelstrom roughly 30 seconds later than you can get storm. and vs someone who opens with muta, you're much better off with mael than with storm. storm usually doesnt do much by itself against muta anyway, rather in conjunction with other anti-muta stuff.
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The Jaedong build beats the Bisu build.
Is that a good enough answer for this thread?
And Ofc, Drone's strategy input is always so sexy and unique.
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weeee ^_^ Eivind is back with his über english!!! yo! ^_^v
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I don't think Jaedong has found any counter with great muta/scourge micro. Of course if he can take out corsairs with air, he will be in a very strong position, but this is reliant on small things like cannons and perfect micro. The easiest counter to the Bisu build has always been hydras and speed ovies; every build has a counter.
Bisu doesn't win because he has an invincible build...he has great harassment and anticipation. If any player over-commits to sair/dt, he will be at a disadvantage.
I dunno how well maelstorm will work because it doesn't seem very flexible. I haven't seen it used very much in real games.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
/resents the fact that its called the bisu build
Jaedongs build is very good at countering the sair/dt antics but it all depends on what the zerg does. As pointed out, if he invests heavily in muta then DA is the ultimate counter which is an easy transition from dt. But if he only semi-invests in muta (say 10) i think its better to keep up the sairs and work in archons/storm. You won't be able to play a typical sair/dt game, but you'll counter his counter imo.
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I think maelstorm is a good idea, but not because it counters muta. There's another reason. In about 80% of pvz, the zerg makes the drop in the middle/late game. Now imagine maelstorm on ovies. Actually I have seen it in some pvz, I just don't remember exactly. Anyway, doing maelstorm when the ovies are in the range of cannons, is priceless.
The other thing I was thinking about is the arbiter in pvz. Why nobody's using it? With many bases the zerg has in middle game, it's easy to choose one for recall. Of course you need to take care of scourges, but usually there's no scourges in the mid-game.
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Can we talk more about the timing weaknesses of this build? Obviously its weak before toss get lots of sairs, or gets dt's out, but how should you gear a build towards those timing points. What other timing points are there?
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@ Bluzman
What if P decided to research it right after storm without knowing if Zerg had mass mutas or not. Simply after scouting spire. Its 100/100 just to research it and 200/200 for 2 DT's. It prepares you for vs ultras and as arbiter_md said, it is useful against someone who uses mass overlord drops often. Is it that much costly just to make sure an opponent can't surprise you and prevent harass?
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So are the people saying that there is no counter to the bisu build, that bisu has perfected the pvz game?
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I think the big thing about Jaedong's scourge opening is that it counters the original Corsair map domination. That is, there's that timing you mentioned between when the protoss first makes a corsair, which previously gave the protoss complete map domination, to the critical mass, in which the protoss technically gains true air superiority and thus map domination (at least, in regards to vision). What the first several scourge do is first, hinder protoss scouting (at least it keeps protoss wary, as opposed to just hydralisks, which protect overlords but serve little else for the time being - you won't kill corsairs with hydras unless the protoss sucks, which isn't usually the case at pro-gamer level), while also providing counter scouting. You can see Jaedong consistently send scourge flying over the protoss base... while this is good "sniping" material (snipe off a stray corsair that just spawned, etc.) this also provides him that scouting that, actually, had been missing, as zerg usually lost complete scouting information past that first corsair.
So there's that, what, minute? until the protoss hits 6 corsairs that Jaedong's opening still continues to scout. And that minute is pretty crucial, as he'll know if the protoss goes double stargate or makes a robotics or whatnot. This is information that most other zerg are not able to gather with the standard defensive hydra den opening.
The other obvious point of the scourge opening is that it opens the way for Jaedong to jump, by way of his scourge scouting, on a weak air army. If he sees single Stargate and estimates that he can win air superiority, he never hesitates... see the game vs Stork, for instance. Again, the scourge scouting lets him make this decision (that you normally would have had to make blind), and it comes with the bonus that the scourge you've already made also help out with winning back air control.
I don't think it's a hard counter to the build, but it's an opening that answers well to the fast corsair PvZ opening, in my opinion... a far stronger overall opening against fast sair than hydra.
EDIT:
As for counter, I'm not a protoss player, so I can't really say much, but the fact that, I think this is an opening, not so much a *build* the same way there's never going to be a hard counter to the "bisu build," as the "bisu build" is also primarily simply an opening that leads towards a variety of playstyles. I think the question you're asking is very similar to what zerg players usually asked before, and that is, what do you do when someone opens with the bisu build? And the answer was usually to make a fast hydra den, until Jaedong (and arguably Savior a couple months ago) came up with the fast Spire to jump low Sair counts. But for protoss, if you're *already* opening fast sair, I don't think there's anything you can do when the other player responds/decides to go fast Spire. You have, after all, already chosen your opening build order. You could, of course, choose a different opening, and thus make this go cyclical, but I doubt there's really a "stronger" PvZ opening than fast sair anyways.
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il0seonpurpose:
No, I guess it means that this build is so flexible that there isn't one definite counter to it. You can adapt the build to all situations, and the Z has to scout to discover a weakness (if there is one).
1 stargate only may be weak to muta/scourge (until archons and storm), but muta/scourge is useless vs. 2 stargates.
A mass hydra push is also only guaranteed to work if P didn't scout it and didn't build like 6-10 cannons.
You just can't say "do this and it'll work", it depends on what your opponent is doing exactly...
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Do the Jaedong build. It'll work.
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You guys are all wrong imo. Jaedong was a victim of the bisu build that game, he got the harrass fucked out of him and lost many drones. he did not counter it, he just played really economically and attacked bisu at the perfect times.
Jaedong, losing economically, used drops to buy time, used plague! hydra ling, lurker.
bisu also sucked in terms of fighting jaedong head on, badly. he could've easily won after jaedong's first drop failed horribly.
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I did notice in that game that jaedong had a lot of hatcheries. He seemed to have enough so he could replenish any drones that he lost fairly quickly, while keeping his units up. I wonder if this is the key.
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On February 13 2008 03:14 tKd_ wrote:
You guys are all wrong imo. Jaedong was a victim of the bisu build that game, he got the harrass fucked out of him and lost many drones. he did not counter it, he just played really economically and attacked bisu at the perfect times.
Jaedong, losing economically, used drops to buy time, used plague! hydra ling, lurker.
bisu also sucked in terms of fighting jaedong head on, badly. he could've easily won after jaedong's first drop failed horribly.
First, my impression was that we're not specifically pointing at any one game. For a moment, when you said "that game" I thought you were meaning the game against Best, or something. Took me a while to realize you meant the Jaedong vs Bisu game.
As for counter, I still think "countering the fast sair opening" is like saying "countering SK terran," the closest you can get is to match opening with opening. If someone goes SK terran against you and you open one hatch muta you'll probably get eaten, because it's just not a particularly solid opening. Does it mean you auto-lose? Not necessarily, but there are "stronger" openings, the strongest of which is, at this moment, 12 hatch 11 pool 3-hatch. But just because you've started the "Savior build" doesn't mean you auto-win either, because the rest of the game matters. Some games the terran will harass you with dropships, other times they'll switch it up and hit you hard anyways.
It's the same for the "bisu build." The particular game between Jaedong and Bisu used a high amount of HT drops, which itself is somewhat of a deviation from the Sair/DT opening that was brought up originally in this thread. I mean, beyond the first corsair and then the subsequent branch that a certain player chooses in the game, arguably the rest is simply *that player* and has nothing to do with the "build." Any "counter" to the "build" then is everything leading up to that. You can't seriously tell me each and every 20+ minute "build" used by Bisu, including each and every Nexus and Gateway beyond the first, is Bisu's very own, unique build, because that's hogwash
The way I see it, right now there're two ways you can "counter" the FE/Sair opening. Not hard counter, but I mean offset it. If you play 12-11 three-hatch muta against FE/Sair you'll probably get owned. 3-0-like-savior owned. Is it because 12-11 three-hatch muta is bad? Not really, it's probably still quite effective against non FE/Sair protoss builds even now, but against this particular opening it's quite, well, not good. You can either make a fast hydra and stop OL harass into whatever build you decide to do, as was and still is largely the norm. Or you can do what Jaedong's started doing and make a spire into fast scourge. That, to me, is the discussion/idea brought up by the OP.
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Why are people talking of a "Jaedong build"? It's not his build, he didn't invent it, he just uses it to win games. His counter to the Bisu build is execution, timing and game sense, which happens in the middle/late game, not in the early game.
July played build orders that might be the counter to the Bisu build.
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On February 13 2008 00:22 Februarys wrote:
@ Bluzman
What if P decided to research it right after storm without knowing if Zerg had mass mutas or not. Simply after scouting spire. Its 100/100 just to research it and 200/200 for 2 DT's. It prepares you for vs ultras and as arbiter_md said, it is useful against someone who uses mass overlord drops often. Is it that much costly just to make sure an opponent can't surprise you and prevent harass?
250/200
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On February 12 2008 19:25 arbiter_md wrote:
I think maelstorm is a good idea, but not because it counters muta. There's another reason. In about 80% of pvz, the zerg makes the drop in the middle/late game. Now imagine maelstorm on ovies. Actually I have seen it in some pvz, I just don't remember exactly. Anyway, doing maelstorm when the ovies are in the range of cannons, is priceless.
The other thing I was thinking about is the arbiter in pvz. Why nobody's using it? With many bases the zerg has in middle game, it's easy to choose one for recall. Of course you need to take care of scourges, but usually there's no scourges in the mid-game.
1. you need to get your da in the right position at the right time and be able to respond to the drop (assuming one is coming) precisely
2. yes there are (scourges in the mid-game)
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
Yes, the commentators all mentioned late hive tech is the counter for Bisu's pvz by applying much pressure.
The day after Best vs Jaedong was played was Bisu vs July.
July even successfully tricked Bisu into going one base tech while himself went 3 hatch expansions. The expansions were running and Bisu was forced to follow. July, too, stayed with lair tech to apply pressure. What happened then? July put 5 lings few hydras at all expansions to prevent Bisu's dts. Did it work? Nope. Because Bisu is not Best. Bisu is not Much. Bisu is Bisu. No other protoss can multitask like Bisu can. Bisu's dts are special.
Bisu changed all the commentators mind saying lair tech is the counter the very next day. Oh how fickle they are!
Lair tech might be a counter for other protoss, but not for this dude. Jaedong just got lucky. Without 2 plagues (hive tech) Jaedong was done for. Damn the defilers
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On February 13 2008 09:16 FConnectionUK wrote:
Yes, the commentators all mentioned late hive tech is the counter for Bisu's pvz by applying much pressure.
The day after Best vs Jaedong was played was Bisu vs July.
July even successfully tricked Bisu into going one base tech while himself went 3 hatch expansions. The expansions were running and Bisu was forced to follow. July, too, stayed with lair tech to apply pressure. What happened then? July put 5 lings few hydras at all expansions to prevent Bisu's dts. Did it work? Nope. Because Bisu is not Best. Bisu is not Much. Bisu is Bisu. No other protoss can multitask like Bisu can. Bisu's dts are special.
Bisu changed all the commentators mind saying lair tech is the counter the very next day. Oh how fickle they are!
Lair tech might be a counter for other protoss, but not for this dude. Jaedong just got lucky. Without 2 plagues (hive tech) Jaedong was done for. Damn the defilers
This post explains it all.
You don't counter the build, you counter the player behind it. In Bisu's case you counter him by outmacroing/microing/timing/strategizing/multitasking him (which has seemed a bit easier as of late).
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On February 13 2008 09:33 gwho wrote:
can you give us more info about the jaedong vs best game you're talking about? which league? year? set #?
the only game he's played against best and won, obviously
osl tiebreakers like last week
edit: VOD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8608_BeSt_vs_Jaedong/vod
i still think that's a stupid question though...
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@Southlight
I agree with what you are saying....I think that air superiority is crucial in PvZ. Sair Opening for Protoss is currently the best option P players have. It forces the Zerg to mass hydras and we know that hydras are weak units generally. But when players like Jaedong is able to nullify that air superiority by hydras, fast ovies, scourges scattered around map, and mass mutas (sometimes), it really kills the core of the point. Now about that narrow time you mentioned, before the sairs grow in numbers, a couple of them won't ensure air superiority. They'll have hard time harrassing ovies, and they'll get picked off easily by scourges.
But the point I try to argue is, instead of dual stargate-ing and simply increasing the number of sairs (which is very expensive in large numbers), how about spending 100/100 to research mael? It allows a P to have a smaller sair air army while ensuring that the P will still keep his air superiority by denying mass mutalisks. Of course, you won't know if the Zerg is massing mutas or trying to override your air superiority but the cost is so minimal that its worth it IMHO. And I've noticed that JD uses lots of mass drops because he is able to nullify air superiority in these games. Those drops should not go unpunished when Protoss is suppose to have air superiority.
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United States1655 Posts
On February 13 2008 09:49 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2008 09:33 gwho wrote:
can you give us more info about the jaedong vs best game you're talking about? which league? year? set #? the only game he's played against best and won, obviously osl tiebreakers like last week edit: VOD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8608_BeSt_vs_Jaedong/vodi still think that's a stupid question though...
He also played Best on Demon's forest and lost after an all-in build.
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Easy answer for protoss. Just skip the corsairs and go mass zeal/temp with fast upgrades or do what anytime did to respond to mutalisks into mass hydra/lurker/ling on Katrina, Goons/Archons in bundles, still without corsairs.
Especially on a map like Katrina, where it's hard to harass efficiently unless you opt for a reaver build. Sair/DT is just too easily defended.
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Calgary25996 Posts
I'm closing this. Here's why:
1) The analysis is pretty shallow. It's degenerated from marginal to useless and wrong. "Just mass Zeals and Templar" doesn't help anything.
2) The overall question is stupid. The Bisu build isn't a build at all. It's a concept that can branch out in many directions. It's adaptive. There is never going to be a definitive answer (at least in m mind), so acting as if there is isn't helpful. If you were looking for strong counters, I think they were both nailed: Fast Spire or Hydralisk upgrades before Lurkers are the two best.
It's like asking what beats Terran 2 Rax -> CC, or Zerg 3 Hatch. There isn't an answer, so coming into a discussion with the mentality that there is doesn't give you room to give much insight.
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EPT
