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After watching the game with + Show Spoiler +Jaedong vs Best on Katrina, and Jaedong crushing Best who was using FE DT/Sair Bisu build
The commentator mentioned that JD might have found out a counter to this effective Protoss FE Sair/DT build that is credited to Bisu, and he mentions that there is a timing weakness in this build that allows Zerg to apply constant pressure. I've seen JD always use non-hive units to make sure to keep the Protoss under pressure and since its so gas intensive, JD uses lair units instead and incorporates lots of hydras into his mixed army to protect ovies from sairs.
I think that the thing with this build is that before you can use DTs, you must have a good number of sairs that ensure your air superiority, but the thing with sairs is that they are very weak in low numbers. IMO, JD knows about this and thats why he builds large number of mutas even though people know that "generally" sairs > mutas. I have seen Jaedong use effective mass drops which were left unpunished because Best could not gain air superiority.
So as a Protoss player, I would like to see a counter to JD's counter.
Two possibilities have popped in my head:
1) Simply increase the number of sairs by going dual stargate, or
2) Try to aim for early Maelstrom
I know that #2 seems like a weak argument but if you think about it, since this build requires a Protoss to go DT right after sair anyway (assuming you don't choose reaver), I don't think making a couple of Dark Archons and taking time to research early Maelstrom is a costly idea. Especially when players like JD use mass mutalisks, and you know how devastating it can be for 10+ mutalisks become frozen by maelstrom and stormed to death. Of course, one would have to research Maelstrom probably after storm, but I think this is viable if Protoss needs early gas, building gas intensive army rather than focusing on large number of corsairs. And it would also prepare and nullify against any early ultra/ling combination.
I would like to hear inputs and criticism about this idea
EDIT: On a side note, how do you guys feel about researching D-Web in mid game? I hear that most people think its too gas costly and too micro intensive. For me, I hate having to build a Fleet Beacon just to research it but lately, I have noticed a trend in Zerg players to build 1 or 2 spores to protect their overlords. I haven't played against really good zerg players but those who I faced places large number of ovies in 1 spot protected by couple of spores. When this is done, it makes me feel like killing 6+ ovies is worth more than what I spent to research web. It slows down the zerg so much and its highly demoralizing. And since Zerg uses lots of hydras as counter, D-web won't hinder a good zerg player with a good micro but I guess it will at least have some negative effects. How do you feel about it?
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This has been addressed MANY times. There is no "counter" to the Bisu build. The zerg can only win if he is the better player. Jaedong > Best, therefore, Jaedong won.
Jaedong does not > Bisu build. Only when Jaedong beats Bisu in a Bo5 series can we say that a "counter" to the Bisu build has been found.
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Norway28804 Posts
im definitely in favour of maelstrom
maelstrom is THE definitive counter to mass mutalisk. and really, it's not very expensive. for 350/300 you get a unit that renders mutalisks useless. it doesnt just make mutalisks worse, it makes them useless. and you get the energy for mael pretty quickly too. if I happened to be a protoss progamer I would most certainly be spending my time perfecting my maelstrom timing now.
it's a great spell really. just not vs hydra lurker ling. but vs a more mutalisk heavy zerg with progamer micro, it's a necessity. the sweet thing about maelstrom is that you can't micro away from it. mutas with armor can stand almost toe to toe with corsairs if they're microed greatly, and they can dodge storm hardly losing anything at all. but maelstrom is impossible to micro against.
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On February 12 2008 15:43 Seraphim wrote:
This has been addressed MANY times. There is no "counter" to the Bisu build. The zerg can only win if he is the better player. Jaedong > Best, therefore, Jaedong won.
Jaedong does not > Bisu build. Only when Jaedong beats Bisu in a Bo5 series can we say that a "counter" to the Bisu build has been found.
Or maybe jaedong was the better player that day and the build was not defeated at all.
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On February 12 2008 15:43 Seraphim wrote:
This has been addressed MANY times. There is no "counter" to the Bisu build. The zerg can only win if he is the better player. Jaedong > Best, therefore, Jaedong won.
Jaedong does not > Bisu build. Only when Jaedong beats Bisu in a Bo5 series can we say that a "counter" to the Bisu build has been found.
As has been demonstrated countless times, there is always a counter to a build.
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On February 12 2008 15:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
im definitely in favour of maelstrom
maelstrom is THE definitive counter to mass mutalisk. and really, it's not very expensive. for 350/300 you get a unit that renders mutalisks useless. it doesnt just make mutalisks worse, it makes them useless. and you get the energy for mael pretty quickly too. if I happened to be a protoss progamer I would most certainly be spending my time perfecting my maelstrom timing now.
it's a great spell really. just not vs hydra lurker ling. but vs a more mutalisk heavy zerg with progamer micro, it's a necessity. the sweet thing about maelstrom is that you can't micro away from it. mutas with armor can stand almost toe to toe with corsairs if they're microed greatly, and they can dodge storm hardly losing anything at all. but maelstrom is impossible to micro against.
A few huge problems. Call me ignorant, but what zerg player goes mass mutalisks? I remember Savior doing it to Free once because, well...Savior was just the better player. Mass mutalisks happen probably once out of 300 games. Obviously Maelstrom is a great counter for it, but when will the situation call for it? Also, how would maelstrom be effectively vs hydra, lurker ling? I just don't see it.
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Norway28804 Posts
reread my post
i wrote it sucks vs hydra lurker ling
and the point is to use it against mass muta. (mass is any amount over 10 btw. )
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So 1-2 groups of hydralisks is mass, too? How many groups of zerglings is mass?
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Norway28804 Posts
in this context 10+ muta is mass, because 10+ is more than what zerg normally makes to harass with. if the zerg only makes 7 or so, dark archon is not necessarily worth it.
i dont understand why you try to argue semantics though. it's just annoying and doesnt contribute anything. fact is maybe i shouldnt have phrased myself the way I did but it's still easily comprehensible and there's no point in writing some sarcastic question phrased in a way that attempts to make my post look dumb.
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the best way...lets just not go for bisu build so that it wont be countered...haha
actually, i think maybe savior himself had the counter for it already as he lost in different way in the last matches they fight against each other...just maybe
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People don't read strategy forum guidelines anymore? Chill, where are you?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Drone, I think there's a timing issue here - by the time you can react to mass muta with maelstorm, muta has already fulfilled it's purpose of dominating on the threat level.
I really think the actual "counter" to Bisu build is muta/scourge since it totally nullifies the opening, but there are other weirdo options like hydra/scourge etc.
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Norway28804 Posts
bluzman you can get maelstrom roughly 30 seconds later than you can get storm. and vs someone who opens with muta, you're much better off with mael than with storm. storm usually doesnt do much by itself against muta anyway, rather in conjunction with other anti-muta stuff.
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The Jaedong build beats the Bisu build.
Is that a good enough answer for this thread?
And Ofc, Drone's strategy input is always so sexy and unique.
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weeee ^_^ Eivind is back with his über english!!! yo! ^_^v
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I don't think Jaedong has found any counter with great muta/scourge micro. Of course if he can take out corsairs with air, he will be in a very strong position, but this is reliant on small things like cannons and perfect micro. The easiest counter to the Bisu build has always been hydras and speed ovies; every build has a counter.
Bisu doesn't win because he has an invincible build...he has great harassment and anticipation. If any player over-commits to sair/dt, he will be at a disadvantage.
I dunno how well maelstorm will work because it doesn't seem very flexible. I haven't seen it used very much in real games.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
/resents the fact that its called the bisu build
Jaedongs build is very good at countering the sair/dt antics but it all depends on what the zerg does. As pointed out, if he invests heavily in muta then DA is the ultimate counter which is an easy transition from dt. But if he only semi-invests in muta (say 10) i think its better to keep up the sairs and work in archons/storm. You won't be able to play a typical sair/dt game, but you'll counter his counter imo.
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I think maelstorm is a good idea, but not because it counters muta. There's another reason. In about 80% of pvz, the zerg makes the drop in the middle/late game. Now imagine maelstorm on ovies. Actually I have seen it in some pvz, I just don't remember exactly. Anyway, doing maelstorm when the ovies are in the range of cannons, is priceless.
The other thing I was thinking about is the arbiter in pvz. Why nobody's using it? With many bases the zerg has in middle game, it's easy to choose one for recall. Of course you need to take care of scourges, but usually there's no scourges in the mid-game.
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Can we talk more about the timing weaknesses of this build? Obviously its weak before toss get lots of sairs, or gets dt's out, but how should you gear a build towards those timing points. What other timing points are there?
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@ Bluzman
What if P decided to research it right after storm without knowing if Zerg had mass mutas or not. Simply after scouting spire. Its 100/100 just to research it and 200/200 for 2 DT's. It prepares you for vs ultras and as arbiter_md said, it is useful against someone who uses mass overlord drops often. Is it that much costly just to make sure an opponent can't surprise you and prevent harass?
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EPT
